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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    You can try to insult me all you want, or guess at my motives. That doesn’t change the RAW, which states when summoning a pact weapon, the Warlock can chose its form.

    You can not like this ability of the Warlock, but it is an ability.

    A bonded weapon becomes a pact weapon. When summoned, it appears. This doesn’t change that it’s form changes.

    Look at Find Steed:

    “You summon a spirit that assumes the form of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed, creating a long-lasting bond with it. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the steed takes on a form that you choose, such as a Warhorse, a pony, a camel, an elk, or a Mastiff. (Your DM might allow Other Animals to be summoned as steeds.)...

    ...You can also dismiss your steed at any time as an action, causing it to disappear. In either case, casting this spell again summons the same steed, restored to its hit point maximum...”

    So here is a very similar ability. You can summon a Steed if a variety of forms, chosen at the time of the summoning. It can also, similarly to pact weapon, be sent away and recalled. When recalled, similarly to pact weapon, the same Steed appears.

    Now, when looking at this, it’s important to keep in mind that “Steed” is used as a generic term that is inclusive of various types of animals (a Warhorse, a pony, a camel, an elk, or a Mastiff, specifically. Likewise, in the pact weapon feature “weapon” is inclusive of those listed in the PHB table.

    So when you cast Find Steed anytime after you’ve already cast it once and selected a form for the steed, can you still choose the form it takes? Yes: you’re resumnoning the same Steed, but not necessarily the same form. You’re summoning that celestial, fey or fiend; like you’re summoning that magic weapon with pact magic; but you can still chose the form.
    Do you know the definition of exclusive and inclusive?

    If you do then we wouldn't be here now and to why people are saying it's painful to read.

    You can MAKE your pact weapon and doing so you can make it into whatever the rules say you can for that.

    OR

    You can make a real weapon your Pact Weapon.

    You however can not mingle the two together.

    It's exclusive.

    This isn't 5 year old logic where we say if Zuts are Mutts and Zogs are Mutts then all Zuts and Zogs are Mutts.

    You can either create your own pact weapon OR you can make a real weapon your Pact Weapon.

    With Bonding you could take your family sword and make it your pact weapon. With IPW that regular sword just became a +1 weapon and magical.

    If you ask me that is way cool. It however doesn't mean you can now change that sword to a whip. Even though you can just make a +1 whip with IPW.

    Which however will be your arguement to the DM to allow it.

    If I can just make a +1 weapon anyways, why not just let me do it to the magical weapon I already have?

    Because it's not in the rules.

    Let me go even further.

    My Warlock has a sentient weapon. I can't change it's looks or put it into a dimensional space. The reasons are right in the rules as written. Not interpreted as wanted.


    Nice strew horse. Can you make a real steed your bonded steed to summon and to unsummon?

    When you can we will talk again.
    Last edited by MThurston; 2019-04-16 at 09:00 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    If I were just going to rule on this based on what seems reasonable and fair, instead of trying to parse the written text to death... I'd probably just say that the Warlock (with the right build) can bind the weapon, and that the weapon becomes one of their options when they summon a weapon, but they can still summon other weapons. If they do summon the weapon they bound, then they get the weapon they bound, and can't change its form.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Rsp29a View Post
    So when you cast Find Steed anytime after you’ve already cast it once and selected a form for the steed, can you still choose the form it takes? Yes: you’re resumnoning the same Steed, but not necessarily the same form. You’re summoning that celestial, fey or fiend; like you’re summoning that magic weapon with pact magic; but you can still chose the form.
    I disagree with this interpretation, too. for the same reason.
    I read it as, once you have summoned your gift from your deity, that's it. It is what it is.

    Otherwise why does it matter that it's the same steed?
    What does that statement add?
    What would change without it?

    maybe you were sincere and just blind to the question all 4 times.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-16 at 09:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    If I were just going to rule on this based on what seems reasonable and fair, instead of trying to parse the written text to death... I'd probably just say that the Warlock (with the right build) can bind the weapon, and that the weapon becomes one of their options when they summon a weapon, but they can still summon other weapons. If they do summon the weapon they bound, then they get the weapon they bound, and can't change its form.
    The rules don't say you can't do this.

    You can have your magical weapon be your bonded weapon and then use hexblade agility to make a new weapon each day.

    You could then use the hexblade weapon as your cha based attack and then your magical bonded weapon using Str or Dex.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    The rules don't say you can't do this.
    100% false... (see, that is just straight up confrontational)

    and here is why i say that:"[that magic weapon] appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter."

    so when i create my pact weapon, i want to summon a great axe, but no that danged venom dagger show up thereafter.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    The rules don't say you can't do this.

    You can have your magical weapon be your bonded weapon and then use hexblade agility to make a new weapon each day.

    You could then use the hexblade weapon as your cha based attack and then your magical bonded weapon using Str or Dex.
    1 - Perhaps you missed the part where I said I didn't care about parsing the rules, only about what would be reasonable and fair.
    2 - My comment as written doesn't say anything about CHA, DEX, or STR.
    3 - "you can have your magical weapon be your bonded weapon and then use hexblade agility (sic) to make a new weapon" is not a contradiction of my comment.
    4 - Perhaps you missed the part where I said I didn't care about parsing the rules, only about what would be reasonable and fair.


    However, if I were to comment on the issue of CHA or not-CHA with the bound weapon... if the Warlock's player invested the Pact, and the Boon, to get those abilities together, I'd have ZERO objection to the bound magical weapon being used with CHA instead of STR or DEX. Compared to the issues with letting the character use their "charmingness" to wield a weapon in the first place, and the issues with CHA being the main stat for what feels like half the game, this little edge case is NOTHING, a quibble, a waste of time to debate.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-04-16 at 09:27 AM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    This thread if effin’ painful to read...
    at this point, i am contributing to the pain. but i just can't stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    at this point, i am contributing to the pain. but i just can't stop.
    Honestly, this sort of thread is so annoying that I should just walk away when I realize it's going to be another 50 pages of people yelling past each other in defense of their precious pet parsings of rules that are often written with deliberate or negligent vagueness.

    For some reason this time I felt the need to poke them all in the forehead by saying "I don't care about yet another petty RAW "debate", I would just do whatever seemed fair and move on."
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    1 - Perhaps you missed the part where I said I didn't care about parsing the rules, only about what would be reasonable and fair.
    2 - My comment as written doesn't say anything about CHA, DEX, or STR.
    3 - "you can have your magical weapon be your bonded weapon and then use hexblade agility (sic) to make a new weapon" is not a contradiction of my comment.
    4 - Perhaps you missed the part where I said I didn't care about parsing the rules, only about what would be reasonable and fair.


    However, if I were to comment on the issue of CHA or not-CHA with the bound weapon... if the Warlock's player invested the Pact, and the Boon, to get those abilities together, I'd have ZERO object to the bound magical weapon being used with CHA instead of STR or DEX. Compared to the issues with letting the character use their "charmingness" to wield a weapon in the first place, and the issues with CHA being the main stat for what feels like half the game, this little edge case is NOTHING, a quibble, a waste of time to debate.
    You are talking like a DM and not like you understand the rules.

    Hexblade ability and bounded weapons are two different animals.

    Hexblade ability allows it to be a pact weapon and allows the cha stat to be used for hits and damage.

    You can still have bounded weapon that is a pact weapon.

    So a Warlock could have a real magic weapon bounded and summon it. Then make another weapon with the hexblade ability a pact weapon.

    Hence two separate pact weapons, one using cha and the other using Str or Dex.

    You however can not change a real weapon into another real weapon.

    No where in the rules does it say you can.

    The arguement here is if IPW already gives you any +1 weapon, why can't you just change that real weapon the same way?

    Because the rules say you can't.

    But as a DM feel free to use your fair way of thinking. At my table and at my current DMs table it works as written. Not as wanted.
    Last edited by MThurston; 2019-04-16 at 09:34 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    at this point, i am contributing to the pain. but i just can't stop.
    Stop Engaging With Trolls After Page Three, Lest Ye Become One.

    Yes, that applies to me too, on both sides at different times.

  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    I am surprised nobody has quoted the SAC yet. Unlike the tweets, it is an official document.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAC v2.3 p5
    If a warlock uses Pact of the Blade to bond with a magic weapon, does that weapon have to be a melee weapon, and can the warlock change the weapon’s form?

    The warlock’s Pact of the Blade feature (PH, 107–8) lets you create a melee weapon out of nothing. Whenever you do so, you determine the weapon’s form, choosing from the melee weapon options in the Weapons table in the Player’s Handbook (p. 149). For example, you can create a greataxe, and then use the feature again to create a javelin, which causes the greataxe to disappear.

    You can also use Pact of the Blade to bond with a magic weapon, turning it into your pact weapon. This magic weapon doesn’t have to be a melee weapon, so you could use the feature on a +1 longbow, for instance. Once the bond is formed, the magic weapon appears whenever you call your pact weapon to you, and you can’t change the magic weapon’s form when it appears. For example, if you bond with a flame tongue (longsword) and send the weapon to an extradimensional space, the weapon comes back as a longsword when you summon it. You don’t get to turn it into a club. Similarly, if you bond with a dagger of venom, you can’t summon it as a maul; it’s always a dagger.

    The feature allows the conjuring forth of a melee weapon, yet we allow more versatility when it comes to magic weapons. We didn’t want a narrow focus in this feature to make a warlock unhappy when a variety of magic weapons appear in a campaign. Does this versatility extend outside the melee theme of the feature? It sure does, but we’re willing to occasionally bend a design concept if doing so is likely to increase a player’s happiness.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    You are talking like a DM and not like you understand the rules.

    Hexblade ability and bounded weapons are two different animals.

    Hexblade ability allows it to be a pact weapon and allows the cha stat to be used for hits and damage.

    You can still have bounded weapon that is a pact weapon.

    So a Warlock could have a real magic weapon bounded and summon it. Then make another weapon with the hexblade ability a pact weapon.

    Hence two separate pact weapons, one using cha and the other using Str or Dex.

    You however can not change a real weapon into another real weapon.

    No where in the rules does it say you can.

    The arguement here is if IPW already gives you any +1 weapon, why can't you just change that real weapon the same way?

    Because the rules say you can't.

    But as a DM feel free to use your fair way of thinking. At my table and at my current DMs table it works as written. Not as wanted.

    There are different arguments going on in this thread, then, and maybe you think I'm saying something I have not said.

    1) We appear to agree that the pact weapon is an option, and that the Warlock can create a different, non-magical, "conjured" weapon if they choose.

    2) As I noted earlier, I would not allow the real bound weapon to be transformed in any way, it is what it is, and can't be made into another weapon by the Warlock's magic. We appear to agree on that as well.

    3) If I were going to give IPW an added benefit, it would be the ability bind additional real weapons and then choose between them. That would be purely "homebrew" on my part, however.

    4) Where we appear to actually disagree is on whether the switch to the CHA modifier can be applied to the bound real magical weapon. I see absolutely nothing in the printed rules that gives a clear answer either way, and I'm going to err on the side of reasonable, fair, and fun -- and I see enough in the text to more than justify that opinion.

    For reference, with emphasis added to the relevant parts:

    Spoiler
    Show

    Hex Warrior

    At 1st level, you acquire the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle. You gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.

    The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.
    Pact of the Blade

    You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see the Weapons section for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

    Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die.

    You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    I am surprised nobody has quoted the SAC yet. Unlike the tweets, it is an official document.
    Frankly, and bluntly, the SAC just gets it wrong on the part about only being able to summon the bound weapon -- and no, I don't care about its "status".

    The part about not changing the form of the bound weapon is fine -- it's the restriction about not being able to summon a different, non-magical, normal pact weapon as you could before the binding ritual took place, while leaving the bound weapon tucked away in the extradimensional space that's just silly. Why would the ritual remove options and constrain the Warlock to a single weapon?
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-04-16 at 10:07 AM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    I am surprised nobody has quoted the SAC yet. Unlike the tweets, it is an official document.
    When you want to 1984* reading comprehension, you sure won't quote anything that will end the confusion.

    *That's five and a half 360, enough to make sure you'll stay dizzy a long time.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.

    ( OK, I would have to say this. If you touched your real weapon and used this feature and then conjured a weapon, then both weapons would use the cha mod. But it for Pact of the Blade. The other parts wouldn't get this. )

    But it would have to be a weapon you are proficient in.
    Last edited by MThurston; 2019-04-16 at 10:18 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    This hexblade ability spells it out clearly. One weapon!

    The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.
    And? What does that have to do with which weapons you can summon, or which weapons you can "touch" between long rests?
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-04-16 at 10:18 AM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    And? What does that have to do with which weapons you can summon, or which weapons you can "touch" between long rests?
    I fixed my statement.

    It matters a good amount.

    First you have to be Pact of the Blade.

    Second the real weapon you would have to have proficiency in.

    Third the second weapon would have to be conjured.

    Forth: This has nothing to do with the belief that bounding with a real weapon gives you the ability to change it's form when bringing it from the extra dimentional space.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Read up to like page 4 then couldn't do so anymore. The issue you all are having here is one of identity; when is object XYZ no longer object XYZ? When the form changes? When the material changes? When some other property changes (perhaps magical enchantments)?

    Lets say Bob is wielding his greatsword in battle. During a particularly chaotic exchange his greatsword goes flying out of his hands. Thankfully, Bill's greatsword is lying nearby, next to Bill's body (aww). Bob picks up the greatsword. Is it the same weapon? Why not? What if the construction is exactly the same (design, material choice, weight, etc.). What makes it a different weapon?

    So later on in the fight Bob manages to pick his own greatsword back up. He gets into a violent series of parries and gets a nick - some material is lost and the form has changed slightly. Is it the same weapon?

    For some more reading on the topic consider Identity and Ship of Theseus.

    The argument that Chronos, Rsp29a, et al. are putting forth is that even if the form changes, it is still the same weapon. Consider that many objects can change form and still be recognised as the same object - a book opens and closes, a cloak changes shape as it moves with a person's body, a torch's flame dances with the currents of the air. Going into fiction (or not, as toy model's exist), Transformers are the very epitome of something changing form yet still carrying the same identity. Likewise, and perhaps more pertinent here:

    Spoiler: Stormlight Archive
    Show
    Shardblades in the Stormlight series are weapons that can be summon after being bonded to. Non-dead versions, like Syl, can change form - yet are still considered the same weapon.


    Essentially, the reading is that weapon XYZ with properties A, B, C can be transformed into a Pact Weapon. Weapon XYZ still retains properties A, B, C, but can change form because that is one of the benefits being a Pact Weapon entails.
    Last edited by Aimeryan; 2019-04-16 at 10:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Stop Engaging With Trolls After Page Three, Lest Ye Become One.
    i like the page 3 caveat... that made me chuckle

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    I am surprised nobody has quoted the SAC yet. Unlike the tweets, it is an official document.
    oh, snap, i wish i had read that earlier.
    actually, i am glad i didn't. i got to that conclusion on my own, so i am not a sheep, right?
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-16 at 10:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type.

    ( OK, I would have to say this. If you touched your real weapon and used this feature and then conjured a weapon, then both weapons would use the cha mod. But it for Pact of the Blade. The other parts wouldn't get this. )

    But it would have to be a weapon you are proficient in.
    Why are you talking about Hex Warrior when the point in contention is the Pact of the Blade?

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    Forth: This has nothing to do with the belief that bounding with a real weapon gives you the ability to change it's form when bringing it from the extra dimentional space.
    We agree on that completely ("that" being the question of whether the bound weapon can be transformed into another weapon, with or without IPW, and the answer being "NO").
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-04-16 at 10:30 AM.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

    The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    Read up to like page 4 then couldn't do so anymore. The issue you all are having here is one of identity; when is object XYZ no longer object XYZ? When the form changes? When the material changes? When some other property changes (perhaps magical enchantments)?

    Lets say Bob is wielding his greatsword in battle. During a particularly chaotic exchange his greatsword goes flying out of his hands. Thankfully, Bill's greatsword is lying nearby, next to Bill's body (aww). Bob picks up the greatsword. Is it the same weapon? Why not? What if the construction is exactly the same (design, material choice, weight, etc.). What makes it a different weapon?

    So later on in the fight Bob manages to pick his own greatsword back up. He gets into a violent series of parries and gets a nick - some material is lost and the form has changed slightly. Is it the same weapon?

    For some more reading on the topic consider Identity and Ship of Theseus.

    The argument that Chronos, Rsp29a, et al. are putting forth is that even if the form changes, it is still the same weapon. Consider that many objects can change form and still be recognised as the same object - a book opens and closes, a cloak changes shape as it moves with a person's body, a torch's flame dances with the currents of the air. Going into fiction (or not, as toy model's exist), Transformers are the very epitome of something changing form yet still carrying the same identity. Likewise, and perhaps more pertinent here:

    Spoiler: Stormlight Archive
    Show
    Shardblades in the Stormlight series are weapons that can be summon after being bonded to. Non-dead versions, like Syl, can change form - yet are still considered the same weapon.


    Essentially, the reading is that weapon XYZ with properties A, B, C can be transformed into a Pact Weapon. Weapon XYZ still retains properties A, B, C, but can change form because that is one of the benefits being a Pact Weapon entails.
    No it does not. Nice try on the transformers. It's a toy truck that turns into a toy man. It doesn't however change from a toy man to a toy train. It changes into a toy truck.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    Lets say Bob is wielding his greatsword in battle. During a particularly chaotic exchange his greatsword goes flying out of his hands. Thankfully, Bill's greatsword is lying nearby, next to Bill's body (aww). Bob picks up the greatsword. Is it the same weapon? Why not? What if the construction is exactly the same (design, material choice, weight, etc.). What makes it a different weapon?
    yes it is different.
    Bob's sword still exists, and exists independently from Bill's sword.
    Just like when another Bandit shows up to fight Bob, that Bandit is not Bill because we already killed Bill.
    Object permanence

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    So later on in the fight Bob manages to pick his own greatsword back up. He gets into a violent series of parries and gets a nick - some material is lost and the form has changed slightly. Is it the same weapon?
    Yes it is the same weapon because of object permanence.

    However, a nick in the blade is very different from that weapon suddenly being able to shoot arrows.

    Moreover, "they" bounced between 2 arguments:
    magicweapon-pactweapon doesn't change form when it is summoned as a different form
    magicweapon-pactweapon can change form cuz it is just a boring, general pactweapon
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Frankly, and bluntly, the SAC just gets it wrong on the part about only being able to summon the bound weapon -- and no, I don't care about its "status".

    The part about not changing the form of the bound weapon is fine -- it's the restriction about not being able to summon a different, non-magical, normal pact weapon as you could before the binding ritual took place, while leaving the bound weapon tucked away in the extradimensional space that's just silly. Why would the ritual remove options and constrain the Warlock to a single weapon?
    Quote Originally Posted by 5e PHB
    You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks.
    Going by the RAW text alone, there is no provision that allows a Warlock to do that you describe. The text can be read as saying that bonding with an actual weapon replaces the Warlock's ability to create weapons out of thin air. The SAC is not in contradiction with the PHB on this matter. You're free to change it for your table, but trying to dismiss it as an official source outright is disingenuous, and frankly just reeks of arrogance.

    Example: Hao Zhengqing, a prince-in-exile of Shou Lung and a Hexblade Warlock sworn to the Raven Queen starts with no bonded magical weapon. With his Pact of the Blade feature, he can use his action to create a pact weapon in his empty hand. In his specific case, the weapon is formed from "liquid shadow" and raven feathers that coalesce into a mockery of the style of weapon he is imitating.

    During the campaign, Zhengqing returns home to they and claim his birthright as the Crown Prince only to discover that Shou Lung underwent a dynastic change qhile he was gone and he no longer has any claim to the throne. Disgruntled, he settles for taking back the previous Imperial House's ceremonial sword, which happens to be a Blade of the Medusa. After dealing with the petrification curse, he performs the ritual to make it his Pact Weapon. It appears whenever he creates his pact weapon thereafter. As much as he may have liked glaives amd halberds before, he can't make it anymore; the moment he performs his gesture to summon his Pact Weapon, the Medusa Blade is shunted out of its exteadimensional space and into his hand. The Blade of the Medusa is now his Pact Weapon; the Pact Weapon no longer exists in a state of flux that can be shaped into whatever.
    Last edited by Constructman; 2019-04-16 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by MThurston View Post
    No it does not. Nice try on the transformers. It's a toy truck that turns into a toy man. It doesn't however change from a toy man to a toy train. It changes into a toy truck.
    astrotrain would like to speak to you about that...


    Quote Originally Posted by Constructman View Post
    Going by the RAW text alone,
    i can help with this one, as MaxKillJoy explained earlier, (he even repeated it and bolded it)
    "Perhaps you missed the part where I said I didn't care about parsing the rules, only about what would be reasonable and fair. "
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-16 at 10:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    yes it is different.
    Bob's sword still exists, and exists independently from Bill's sword.
    Just like when another Bandit shows up to fight Bob, that Bandit is not Bill because we already killed Bill.
    Object permanence


    Yes it is the same weapon because of object permanence.

    However, a nick in the blade is very different from that weapon suddenly being able to shoot arrows.

    Moreover, "they" bounced between 2 arguments:
    magicweapon-pactweapon doesn't change form when it is summoned as a different form
    magicweapon-pactweapon can change form cuz it is just a boring, general pactweapon
    So... you agree that it can be read as being the same weapon with a change of form? You seem to agree that an object has identity outside of just its form, so it would seem to preclude you agree that a change of form does not negate the object retaining its identity.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    i can help with this one, as MaxKillJoy explained earlier, (he even repeated it and bolded it)
    "Perhaps you missed the part where I said I didn't care about parsing the rules, only about what would be reasonable and fair. "
    This specifically was what I was taing umbrage at:

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Frankly, and bluntly, the SAC just gets it wrong on the part about only being able to summon the bound weapon -- and no, I don't care about its "status".

    Which I don't understand. From what I've seen, y'all want Crawford's head on a pike. I know that he has (or has had) a habit of tweeting off the cuff, but I assume the stuff that makes it into the compendium has been given sober second thought. And frankly, it's been an extremely helpful resource for me. But then I go on ENWorld or GiantITP and see people rioting in the forums over it.
    Last edited by Constructman; 2019-04-16 at 11:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    So... you agree that it can be read as being the same weapon with a change of form? You seem to agree that an object has identity outside of just its form, so it would seem to preclude you agree that a change of form does not negate the object retaining its identity.
    i agree that a purely cosmetic change does not negate the object retaining its identity.

    i do not agree that an Oathbow summoned as an axe is the same weapon, nor is it an Oathbow.

    i do not agree that the rules allow you to summon a magicweapon-pactweapon as any other weapon.

    i said as much in what you quoted. i am grateful that you didn't drag this out into a long slow slippery slope argument, though.
    Last edited by NaughtyTiger; 2019-04-16 at 11:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Just, please don't. Insisting on that technicality improves nothing.

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    I keep seeing inferences that you need Improved Pact Weapon to make the Pact weapon magical. That's not accurate. The Pact itself already makes the weapon magical for purposes of overcoming resistance. Improved Pact Weapon just adds further benefits.
    Last edited by Pex; 2019-04-16 at 11:31 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    "Welcome to Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, where the DCs are made up and the rules don't matter."

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    Default Re: Pact of the Blade

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    i agree that a purely cosmetic change does not negate the object retaining its identity.

    i do not agree that an Oathbow summoned as an axe is the same weapon, nor is it an Oathbow.

    i said as much in what you quoted.
    Then you would be in the group of philosophers that see form as defining for identity; the real point being made here is that no everyone sees it like that, hence, for them a weapon can change form and still be the same weapon. Which means, for them, there is no conflict with a magic weapon changing its form when summoned as a pact weapon.

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