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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    If you can negate an enemy's turn, you may as well negate the most powerful enemy's turn. Why deny a level 9 spell when you can deny an epic spell? And as you said, Redcloak is susceptible to stuff Xykon isn't, like... sneak attacks. Probably hard to sneak attack a grasped foe.
    Quite the opposite, it's hard to sneak attack with a bow, UNLESS the target is grappled, in which case every attack by everyone not in the grapple qualifies.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    True, but not terribly relevant; they have two enemies, not just one. Even without knowing the Plan, Redcloak is still an enormous threat in his own right, being a high-level cleric who is complicit in going for the Gates. So far as the Order knows, if they wipe out Xykon, then Redcloak will take the Gate for himself and rule. And again, there's the healing, where Xykon can last significantly longer with Reddy than without him.

    Of course, if you really think that neutralizing Xykon takes ultimate precedence, then it would behoove the Order to have some way to stop him from casting spells, which would free up others to neutralize Redcloak.
    Aaaaaaactually, I'm not sure the Spellsplinter Maneuver is going to work well enough on Xykon; undead use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration checks and we've seen Greg(who only has marginally better Charisma than Durkon) make the check. Xykon's Charisma is probably in the low 30s; combined with his DR, Roy's going to have to deal a lot of damage for it to really work. And that's assuming the big X doesn't have Improved Combat Casting or whatever.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Aaaaaaactually, I'm not sure the Spellsplinter Maneuver is going to work well enough on Xykon; undead use Charisma instead of Constitution for Concentration checks and we've seen Greg(who only has marginally better Charisma than Durkon) make the check. Xykon's Charisma is probably in the low 30s; combined with his DR, Roy's going to have to deal a lot of damage for it to really work. And that's assuming the big X doesn't have Improved Combat Casting or whatever.
    All damaging attacks inflict a Concentration check to keep the spell. Spellsplinter is introduced as a feat specifically designed to disrupt spells, indicating that it is significantly more difficult to overcome than a standard "you take X damage, factor X into the check calculation" attack. Even that aside, considering the that we've seen it introduced, seen Roy taking the time to learn it, and seen it foreshadowed working in the fight with the vampire, if it turned out to not really do much that wouldn't be terribly good storytelling.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    And also hope Redcloak doesn't just pull out a Blasphemy and then Xykon spams Meteor Swarms.

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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    All damaging attacks inflict a Concentration check to keep the spell. Spellsplinter is introduced as a feat specifically designed to disrupt spells, indicating that it is significantly more difficult to overcome than a standard "you take X damage, factor X into the check calculation" attack. Even that aside, considering the that we've seen it introduced, seen Roy taking the time to learn it, and seen it foreshadowed working in the fight with the vampire, if it turned out to not really do much that wouldn't be terribly good storytelling.
    Wasn't there a theory that the move only worked against casters casting defensively? And that Durkula chose to just tank the attack and do the concentration check instead, thus bypassing it?
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Wasn't there a theory that the move only worked against casters casting defensively? And that Durkula chose to just tank the attack and do the concentration check instead, thus bypassing it?
    There's a theory that it's a homebrewed version of Mage Slayer, but given the "homebrew" bit (and the lack of ability to tell when one is casting defensively), that doesn't really mean much, IMO.

    Also, when did Durkon get a spell through the Spellsplinter?
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Considering how often they end up having to stave off certain defeat by defending members of the group... Prismatic Sphere. Whole party being assaulted by an army? Hide in sphere. Someone unconscious and being targeted by an evil cousin? Surround with sphere. Want to get Redcloak separated from Xykon to talk about the Snarl Plan? fly up then cast sphere. It doesn't break the genre like Wish or Shapechange, but still has myriad uses that come up almost constantly.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Wasn't there a theory that the move only worked against casters casting defensively? And that Durkula chose to just tank the attack and do the concentration check instead, thus bypassing it?
    While the Order is trapped in Girardís uberspell, Xykon is astonished to see that Roy disrupted his spell despite the fact that he was casting defensively. That, of course, implies that the Spellsplinter Maneuver can work against you even when you cast defensively.

    You could argue that Roy is trapped in an illusion and thus willfully misinterprets how the feat works in order to suit his fantasy, but I donít think thatís a very strong argument. It makes more sense to assume that everything that happened in the illusion was at least possible from the charactersí points of view.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2019-04-24 at 09:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    when did Durkon get a spell through the Spellsplinter?
    Greg did.

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    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Varsuvius doesn't know that Redcloak's Red Cloak is an artifact, so wouldn't target it. I could see V picking that spell for use on the phylactery.

    Using Freedom in the way described would be awesome, but I don't think it works that way, and as it remedies something that happened in Start of darkness, none of the PCs would know to use it.

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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    While the Order is trapped in Girardís uberspell, Xykon is astonished to see that Roy disrupted his spell despite the fact that he was casting defensively. That, of course, implies that the Spellsplinter Maneuver can work against you even when you cast defensively.

    You could argue that Roy is trapped in an illusion and thus willfully misinterprets how the feat works in order to suit his fantasy, but I donít think thatís a very strong argument. It makes more sense to assume that everything that happened in the illusion was at least possible from the charactersí points of view.
    Well, it's his dream world, so everything that could happen right, did happen right. If there was a fail chance "IRL", it wouldn't have in the dream world.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Well, it's his dream world, so everything that could happen right, did happen right. If there was a fail chance "IRL", it wouldn't have in the dream world.
    : How did you do that?? I was casting defensively!
    : He prevented you from doing so by timing his strike to perfectly coincide with the apex of magical energy.

    It certainly sounds like the Spellsplinter Maneuver's explicit function is to prevent someone from avoiding the possibility of spell failure by casting defensively (and for any epic-level sorcerers who put max ranks into Concentration, failing such a check should be impossible). This can't be proven, of course, but I think it's a good standing assumption to make unless evidence that it is false arises.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2019-04-25 at 07:53 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Suppose, hypothetically, that the Spellsplinter Maneuver was a different name for the Mage Slayer feat, which makes it so that any spellcaster attempting to cast defensively in the threatened area of the person with the feat will auto-fail, but doesn't stop someone from casting normally and sucking up the attack of opportunity, if they can make the Concentration check to not lose their spell from the damage.

    In this hypothesis, Roy's fantasy version of Xykon was either so stupid, or paying so little attention, that he tried to do something he could easily have observed he couldn't do (the Mage Slayer feat does inform anyone near the person with it that they can't cast defensively). Greg, of course, cast non-defensively and made his Concentration check to cast Harm.

    It seems to be consistent with what's on the page, and it leaves the Spellsplinter Maneuver still useful, but vastly less useful against Xykon (who doesn't fight like an idiot outside of Roy's fantasies) than it was in the illusion.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    : How did you do that?? I was casting defensively!
    : He prevented you from doing so by timing his strike to perfectly coincide with the apex of magical energy.

    It certainly sounds like the Spellsplinter Maneuver's explicit function is to prevent someone from avoiding the possibility of spell failure by casting defensively (and for any epic-level sorcerers who put max ranks into Concentration, failing such a check should be impossible). This can't be proven, of course, but I think it's a good standing assumption to make unless evidence that it is false arises.
    Yea, but nothing about that says "the maneuver is an automatic success".

    Could be something along the lines of "When a threatened caster attempts to cast a spell defensively, you get a free attack of opportunity. If it lands, instead of dealing damage, you disrupt the spell". If it's something like this, then you still need 1) available attacks of opportunity and 2) to beat the opponent's AC.

    Nothing shows that this is how it works, either, but if there was limits to the ability, I'm guessing that the fantasy illusion probably wouldn't be where we should expect to find them.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Yea, but nothing about that says "the maneuver is an automatic success".

    Could be something along the lines of "When a threatened caster attempts to cast a spell defensively, you get a free attack of opportunity. If it lands, instead of dealing damage, you disrupt the spell". If it's something like this, then you still need 1) available attacks of opportunity and 2) to beat the opponent's AC.

    Nothing shows that this is how it works, either, but if there was limits to the ability, I'm guessing that the fantasy illusion probably wouldn't be where we should expect to find them.
    Sure, I never suggested that it would make disrupting spells an automatic success. I think Kish's guess as to how it works is probably pretty good.

    I think I may have misread your initial post, to be honest, since it's not at all what I remember. That's what I get for posting right before bedtime.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    the Mage Slayer feat does inform anyone near the person with it that they can't cast defensively
    It does? How? (IC-wise, I mean)

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    IC-wise, something like, "You realize from the way the greatsword fighter is standing that you cannot cast defensively while this close to him."
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    This, in a nutshell.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    IC-wise, something like, "You realize from the way the greatsword fighter is standing that you cannot cast defensively while this close to him."
    ...

    Well, that's just weird. One, because that seems to require a great deal of martial knowledge from people who spend a lot of time in non-martial learning. But mostly because, in general, I thought feats don't give themselves away? At least, I don't recall ever being given a breakdown of what feats my enemies possessed until they bit me in the behind. What makes this feat so special that it is given away before the fighter even has a chance to use it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ...

    Well, that's just weird. One, because that seems to require a great deal of martial knowledge from people who spend a lot of time in non-martial learning. But mostly because, in general, I thought feats don't give themselves away? At least, I don't recall ever being given a breakdown of what feats my enemies possessed until they bit me in the behind. What makes this feat so special that it is given away before the fighter even has a chance to use it?

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    Because its purpose is "your enemies can't cast defensively against you, but must automatically provoke an attack of opportunity every time they cast a spell within your threatened area," which is already huge. Not "your enemies can't cast defensively against you and will automatically fizzle at least one spell, and may or may not realize why their casting defensively is strangely not working" which would be vastly more powerful.

    This webcomic has an illustration of how it can work in practice.

    Edited: To be clear, Mage Slayer is a passive feat, mechanically speaking. Not "you hit them and they can't cast defensively"--strictly "you exude an aura of you-can't-cast-defensively."
    Last edited by Kish; 2019-04-25 at 10:05 AM.
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    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Because its purpose is "your enemies can't cast defensively against you, but must automatically provoke an attack of opportunity every time they cast a spell within your threatened area," which is already huge. Not "your enemies can't cast defensively against you and will automatically fizzle at least one spell, and may or may not realize why their casting defensively is strangely not working" which would be vastly more powerful.

    This webcomic has an illustration of how it can work in practice.
    OK, please bear with my haven't-played in-over-a-decade ignorance, but I seem to recall that a fighter in close combat with a wizard already has the upper hand? Getting an extra attack in the wizard's turn is adding insult to injury, rather than a game changer. Also, is there something that prevents the wizard from taking a 5-foot step away from the fighter and literally sidestep any danger? I suppose there are spells they might want to cast that are touch-ranged, but we are getting into niche territory, aren't we?

    I suppose the real issue here is that I really don't see how this feat is that much of a huge deal.

    (Sorry, I tried your link, but flash is blocked at work. All I could see is a block of text talking about a shield bash thing)

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    At that link is an example of a character answering one of your questions by combining Mage Slayer (your enemies can't cast defensively) with the Thicket of Blades stance from Tome of Battle (taking a five-foot step in your threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity; Thicket of Blades also specifies that everyone who observes the user knows that five-foot steps are now dangerous). More prosaically and core-specific to deal with five-foot steps, there are also spiked chains (turn everywhere within 10 feet of the wielder into their threatened area).

    Beyond that, there are battlefield configurations that prevent a spellcaster from casually taking a five-foot step. If you've got them pinned against a wall, so they can go right or left but either will still leave them in your threatened area unless you go more than five feet, it's one example--but the comic offers another; if Roy had had the Mage Slayer feat (whether that's the feat he learned later in the afterlife or not), he would have gotten an attack of opportunity every time Xykon cast a spell while they were on the zombie dragon, since Xykon wasn't five-footing away from him until later, when Xykon fled. In the illusion, of course, Xykon easily could have just stepped back, which might be why Roy's subconscious supplied Xykon acting like he had no idea the restriction was there.
    Last edited by Kish; 2019-04-25 at 10:27 AM.
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    This, in a nutshell.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Chain Contingency would definitely make sense.
    I can definitely see this as being V's choice. Especially with the threat of fiends yanking V out at inconvenient moments.

    Assuming V did choose Chain Contingency, I wonder what kind of spells V could chain? Hmmm... Time Stop maybe?

    It's been awhile since I've played 3.5, so my memory of spells options is a bit limited.

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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ...

    Well, that's just weird. One, because that seems to require a great deal of martial knowledge from people who spend a lot of time in non-martial learning. But mostly because, in general, I thought feats don't give themselves away? At least, I don't recall ever being given a breakdown of what feats my enemies possessed until they bit me in the behind. What makes this feat so special that it is given away before the fighter even has a chance to use it?

    Grey Wolf
    Because its purpose is "your enemies can't cast defensively against you, but must automatically provoke an attack of opportunity every time they cast a spell within your threatened area," which is already huge. Not "your enemies can't cast defensively against you and will automatically fizzle at least one spell, and may or may not realize why their casting defensively is strangely not working" which would be vastly more powerful.

    This webcomic has an illustration of how it can work in practice.

    Edited: To be clear, Mage Slayer is a passive feat, mechanically speaking. Not "you hit them and they can't cast defensively"--strictly "you exude an aura of you-can't-cast-defensively."
    To expand a bit, Mage Slayer's description is "You have studied the ways and weaknesses of spellcasters and can time your attacks and defenses against them expertly", and the text says the caster will automatically fail any Concentration checks they choose to make to cast defensively (which results in the spell failing); presumably, in the abstracted-away threat-posturing between rounds, you're showing that your aim can anticipate and thwart the dodging and weaving of casting defensively.

    Also, I will note that Mage Slayer's cousin aunt, Spellcasting Harrier, is an epic feat that gives a caster no indication that you get an attack of opportunity when they cast defensively, and even gives a +4 bonus on the attack roll.

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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    About a grappling hand, I just remembered: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

    Xykon's immune now.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    About a grappling hand, I just remembered: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html

    Xykon's immune now.
    Crushing hand didn't bother Xykon much even before he got his new boots. Which is what makes it a good spell to take, narratively speaking. It will not affect anything in any substantial way.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Crushing hand didn't bother Xykon much even before he got his new boots. Which is what makes it a good spell to take, narratively speaking. It will not affect anything in any substantial way.
    I don't really think making V more-or-less irrelevant is that good in narrative terms, especially since V already has more than a few restraining bolts(two calls from the IFCC, the Big X being nigh-immune to most of their spells, etc.) and most of the other members aside from Durkon are seriously gimped against Xykon compared to, say, an epic-leveled version of Redcloak - since against a CE sorcerer lich, no Sneak Attack, DR blocks lots of damage from slashing and piercing, cold immunity, Anarchic only works on lawful creatures plus undead are immune to crits... that kind of stuff.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I don't really think making V more-or-less irrelevant is that good in narrative terms, especially since V already has more than a few restraining bolts(two calls from the IFCC, the Big X being nigh-immune to most of their spells, etc.) and most of the other members aside from Durkon are seriously gimped against Xykon compared to, say, an epic-leveled version of Redcloak - since against a CE sorcerer lich, no Sneak Attack, DR blocks lots of damage from slashing and piercing, cold immunity, Anarchic only works on lawful creatures plus undead are immune to crits... that kind of stuff.
    Yes, and? There's a reason the planning Book 1 was to buff Roy to high heaven and send him to basically solo Xykon. So will it be again.
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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Yes, and? There's a reason the planning Book 1 was to buff Roy to high heaven and send him to basically solo Xykon.
    Sure; the plan was made by Roy and his massive ego.
    So will it be again.
    This presumes Roy hasn't and won't move past any of his ego issues. Which I realize is to be expected from you, but you should be equally unsurprised that it finds little traction.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    This presumes Roy hasn't and won't move past any of his ego issues.
    Whereas you're presuming that it isn't a tactically sound plan that a reasonable team might pursue on its merits. As danielxcutter has observed, the Order hasn't got many other options, since most of its members are incapable of contributing to a confrontation with Xykon (minions notwithstanding) otherwise than by buffing Roy.
    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-04-26 at 10:58 AM.
    You, who have nothing at all to believe in; to you, whose motto is "money comes first;" who are you, to tell us that our lives have been wasted? That all that we've fought for has turned into dust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm jumping on the Zim bandwagon.
    Human stick-figure Twilight Sparkle by me. Find more here.

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    Default Re: Predictions on what V's 9th level spells will be?

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Whereas you're presuming that it isn't a tactically sound plan that a reasonable team might pursue on its merits.
    Whether it is or not is, I think, completely irrelevant; if Rich writes a climactic final battle with Xykon, it will involve the Order as an ensemble cast, not spotlight Roy and ignore the other members.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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