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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    As vague personality tags, they seem pretty clear. NE represents callous self-interest, CE represents heedless thirst for destruction, LE represents evil in perpetuation of some external order, or the perpetuation of an evil order.

    Gray areas:

    NE/LE: Someone who benefits from a certain order will strive to maintain that order simply out of self-interest. The difference here comes down to how cynical they are about it -- in practical terms, "what are they willing to do to prove it" -- how you define an ideology vs simply a paradigm, and the quirks of their personality.

    NE/CE: Someone who goes around doing whatever they feel like, if what they feel like is Evil. The difference comes down to how self-serving they are about it, and in this case, probably predominantly, personality quirks.

    As always the four corner alignments are probably rarer than the center cross since they require more effort, but not by a huge amount. And obviously you could go ham with turning the system into an open graph rather than a 3x3. I don't really see a need to but I don't typically use alignment anyway.

    Though if you want to treat Law and Chaos as fundamental forces, it could be different in a couple of ways: in OOTS for example, these alignments are basically clubs or ethical identities, making them primarily behavioral, but if Law and Chaos really are fundamental forces of the universe you might also have Law and Chaos DNA, or Chaos energy might be strong in someone, making it primarily platonic, with the actions they take as a result merely consequences.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    I`ve always used apples and babies to explain the whole evil thing.

    LE- I am hungry. I will ransom this baby for some apples.

    NE- I am hungry. I will get MORE apples by selling the baby to a stranger.

    CE- I am hungry. Forget the apples, this baby looks delicious!
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    CE- Flagrant impulsive acute straightforward violence

    LE- Pernicious calculated lingering contrived violence
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2019-04-16 at 01:36 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    I`ve always used apples and babies to explain the whole evil thing.

    LE- I am hungry. I will ransom this baby for some apples.

    NE- I am hungry. I will get MORE apples by selling the baby to a stranger.

    CE- I am hungry. Forget the apples, this baby looks delicious!
    I mean, all of these seem pretty illegal, though, so they'd all be chaotic. They do seem to go in increasing order of evilness, but Chaotic Evil is not more evil than Neutral Evil.

    Also, who would buy a random baby from a complete stranger?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoLegsArmchair View Post
    I mean, all of these seem pretty illegal, though, so they'd all be chaotic.
    The opposite of Chaos isn't so much Law, as Order. It is possible to indulge massively in illegal acts, in an orderly fashion.

    A crimelord who runs an extremely organised criminal organisation, can be a pretty good exemplar of LE.

    Even archdevils (about as Lawful as LE gets) can be crimelords. Glasya was one in 5e.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2019-04-16 at 11:19 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The opposite of Chaos isn't so much Law, as Order. It is possible to indulge massively in illegal acts, in an orderly fashion.

    A crimelord who runs an extremely organised criminal organisation, can be a pretty good exemplar of LE.

    Even archdevils (about as Lawful as LE gets) can be crimelords. Glasya was one in 5e.
    While that is true (and I've mentioned it upthread, though using 'strictures' instead of 'order'), the examples I was quoting were all pretty clearly flouting what would probably be the law (a kind of stricture or order) and also not following any kind of pre-established strictures or order. Thus, they come off as chaotic.

    As well as evil, of course.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Âmesang View Post
    I suppose a problem I have is that it seems Chaotic Evil is often seen as an "insane" alignment — i.e., if you're Chaotic Evil then you have to be some sort of mindless, frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic who attacks everything around them at all times just because… I mean, after all, that's the alignment of demons, right? …forgetting that it's also the alignment of red dragons, and I figured they're aligned as such due to seeing themselves as being all-important and the center of everything — "me me me," and all that.
    So on a whole to me your character seems much more NE than CE but I suppose that is a matter of opinion.

    One of the major issues in d&d is comparing a CE mortal to a demon isn't a fair comparison. Demons are embodiment of chaos as well as evil with a nice dose of what appears to be madness to the mortal eye mixed in. The real point is that since they are made of evil chaos they fundamentally don't process information the same as a mortal. So everyone uses them as a yard stick and says CE = madman who can't make a rational but enjoys killing. When sure that madman might be CE but he isn't CE because he is crazy. It is the same reason that the Chaos alignment doesn't automatically make anything it is attached to crazy. Disassociating mental disorder and alignment is pretty important to understand alignment.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoLegsArmchair View Post
    I mean, all of these seem pretty illegal, though, so they'd all be chaotic. They do seem to go in increasing order of evilness, but Chaotic Evil is not more evil than Neutral Evil.

    Also, who would buy a random baby from a complete stranger?
    I mean it is only illegal so much as doing so is considered illegal in said society. I mean take a modest proposal (anyone who hasn't read it should it is quite interesting) if a society took up the practice of eating babies because it is an easily available food source and other food sources are very scarce; a baby would then become a standard commodity in said society. As such the trading baby for apples and selling a baby to a strange would be perfectly lawful acts, though I can't see the kidnapping and holding it for ransom to ever being lawful.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The opposite of Chaos isn't so much Law, as Order. It is possible to indulge massively in illegal acts, in an orderly fashion.

    A crimelord who runs an extremely organised criminal organisation, can be a pretty good exemplar of LE.

    Even archdevils (about as Lawful as LE gets) can be crimelords. Glasya was one in 5e.
    I disagree law seems just as important as order for the lawful chaos spectrum. But in general I agree with you, for example the leader of a terrorist group would most likely be CE; however, many of the zealot followers of said terrorist group would probably be LE. Strangely for me I have issues picturing Chaotic characters being a part of a group unless they are the leader of the group.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    I mean it is only illegal so much as doing so is considered illegal in said society. I mean take a modest proposal (anyone who hasn't read it should it is quite interesting) if a society took up the practice of eating babies because it is an easily available food source and other food sources are very scarce; a baby would then become a standard commodity in said society. As such the trading baby for apples and selling a baby to a strange would be perfectly lawful acts, though I can't see the kidnapping and holding it for ransom to ever being lawful.
    True, but generally, societies don't do cannibalism and sale of infants. Even slaves need to be of functional age.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    The way I see it:

    Neutral Evil = Looking out only for yourself but in a heartless manner. You'll obey the law only if it benefits you. But you won't go out of your way to break it either. If they have ally's they might consider helping them if its a common goal or enemy. Might even consider saving them, but it's rare.

    Chaotic Evil = Next to zero morals. Doesn't even consider the law. Selfishness on steroids. Will fight alongside ally's if its a common enemy but won't hesitate to throw them under the bus to save their own skin.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The opposite of Chaos isn't so much Law, as Order. It is possible to indulge massively in illegal acts, in an orderly fashion.

    A crimelord who runs an extremely organised criminal organisation, can be a pretty good exemplar of LE.

    Even archdevils (about as Lawful as LE gets) can be crimelords. Glasya was one in 5e.
    This. "Law" is a misnomer. Crime syndicates are LE.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    It does tend to be easier to answer the question, "Is this character NE or CE?" than to give rigorous definitions of them, because the markers are so varied and you have to take a fuzzy, high-level view to get the picture. The truth - which is oft mentioned and then forgotten because we like to argue - is that any given character is likely to be able to qualify as one or both adjacent alignments on the Wheel if you look at a particular slice of his days. It's going to be a long-term picture of where he averages out that makes the determination.

    That LG sorcerer will probably seem arguably NG at times, and arguably LN at others. And maybe he'll more often be one than the other, but his determination to at least view himself as LG should be considered as long as he doesn't veer so far as to be "arguably CG" or "arguably LE." Even if he takes an action or few that are "arguably CG" or "arguably LE," one or two actions might be "sins" against his preferred alignment, but aren't going to instantly change his alignment. It's only when he's more often "arguably CG" more often than "arguably LN" that we start to suggest he might be more NG than LG, and that those "arguably NG" moments might instead need to have his LG moments be viewed as "arguably" such.

    Taking this further, if he's "aruably LN" as often as he's "arguably CG," he might actually be TN with Good tendencies.


    So the difference between a Neutral Evil man and a Chaotic Evil one is how often he's "arguably LE" versus "arguably CN." The NE guy is almost never going to be "arguably CN," but definitely will have instances of "arguably CE" and "arguably LE." The CE guy will have times when you could argue he's CN and times when you can argue he's NE.

    This is why it's not always easy to discern, with a brief discussion and one or two examples, the difference between any two adjacent alignments, but you can usually get it down to "somewhere in one of these." And, if you're stuck between three alignments, one of which is between the other two, it's almost certainly because he's that middle alignment.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Chaotic: Values freedom over stability and the individual over the group.

    Evil: Seeks personal advancement and/or gratification and is willing to sacrifice others to get it.

    Therefore, Chaotic Evil is out for number 1 no matter what. They're not always incapable of friendship or total psychopaths, but if they want something they'll tear down every obstacle in their way and not care who it hurts.

    Neutral Evil differs in that it doesn't actively resent restrictions like CE does. Law and Chaos both have their place, peace is pleasant while war is profitable. They'll still gladly throw others under the bus, but perhaps not with the same abandon as their counterpart.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Why dont you ask our Specialist in most things Evil? Red Fel Red Fel Red Fel ^^
    Yo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhentarim View Post
    I posted this in the wrong place initially, so I reported that post and reposted here.
    Okay. First of all, my thing is Lawful Evil - the only flavor of Evil you have foolishly forgotten to invite to your little party, mortal, and do not think that I forget such insult. I know, it's in the hypothetical, but it's not in the thread title, so I'm going to be offended anyway. Because I can.

    Anyhow, a lot of what I would say has been expressed to varying degrees. In short, it's this:

    Evil is about power and selfishness. Power as a means and an end, benefiting me and mine at the expense of you and yours. The difference between NE and CE, therefore, is the lens through which those two elements are viewed.

    CE brings a Chaotic lens. Chaos, at its heart, is about personal freedom and expression; CE takes that to selfish and destructive extremes, both by trying to dissolve the structures that protect the weak and vulnerable, and by exercising dominance through power over others.

    NE, by contrast, is "pure," in a way. It's not about power through adherence to structure, or selfishness through personal expression and freedom - it's just about power and selfishness. In some ways, it's harder to distinguish from LE than from CE. A Lich, for example, who simply seeks to expand his arcane prowess in his studies, may be NE, although his feverish adherence to his pursuits may have some label him Lawful.

    Now, let's explore the hypothetical three characters, starting with my obvious favorite:

    LE: The Lawful Evil character wants revenge against the King, but doesn't want to destabilize the region. He wants to hurt the man, not the office - as long as there is a King, there will remain order, ideally one that can benefit the character. He will therefore seek to construct a series of events which will ruin the King personally, forcing him to abdicate. Ideally, the character will either put himself or someone under his control in a position to succeed the King.

    CE: The Chaotic Evil character wants revenge against the King, ideally in a manner that also destabilizes the region. He wants to hurt the man by attacking the office - by ruining the Crown, he will leave the King an impotent shell of a man, with a worthless title and wealth he can't protect. He will therefore seek to construct a series of events which will drive the people into a state of revolt and rob the King of his supporters, both financial and political. He will drive the kingdom into bankruptcy and vulnerability, encouraging banditry and lawlessness to further undermine confidence in the King's ability to maintain peace and order. Whether the King abdicates is irrelevant; ideally, the King remains King, until either the title means nothing or the mob comes for his head. In all likelihood, this also results in power for the character, either as a "hero" of the revolution or a leader of a newly-formed bandit company. Ideally, the King watches helplessly as everything he worked so hard to control burns around him.

    NE: The Neutral Evil character wants revenge against the King, and doesn't care how it impacts the region one way or the other, but as long as he's at it he would enjoy some personal benefit. In short, he wants to take from the King and give to himself. He will therefore construct a series of events that result in the King's death or prolonged agony and his own profit - for example, killing the King in a particularly conspicuous manner in order to create for himself the reputation of a desirable assassin-for-hire, or torturing the King to learn all of his profitable and valuable secrets, or engaging in a bargain with Dark Powers to trade King or Kingdom for some personal gain. Whether the Kingdom remains or burns is not relevant to his schemes, so long as it maximizes his benefit and the King's suffering at the same time.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: What is the difference between Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Yo!



    Okay. First of all, my thing is Lawful Evil - the only flavor of Evil you have foolishly forgotten to invite to your little party, mortal, and do not think that I forget such insult. I know, it's in the hypothetical, but it's not in the thread title, so I'm going to be offended anyway. Because I can.

    Anyhow, a lot of what I would say has been expressed to varying degrees. In short, it's this:

    Evil is about power and selfishness. Power as a means and an end, benefiting me and mine at the expense of you and yours. The difference between NE and CE, therefore, is the lens through which those two elements are viewed.

    CE brings a Chaotic lens. Chaos, at its heart, is about personal freedom and expression; CE takes that to selfish and destructive extremes, both by trying to dissolve the structures that protect the weak and vulnerable, and by exercising dominance through power over others.

    NE, by contrast, is "pure," in a way. It's not about power through adherence to structure, or selfishness through personal expression and freedom - it's just about power and selfishness. In some ways, it's harder to distinguish from LE than from CE. A Lich, for example, who simply seeks to expand his arcane prowess in his studies, may be NE, although his feverish adherence to his pursuits may have some label him Lawful.

    Now, let's explore the hypothetical three characters, starting with my obvious favorite:

    LE: The Lawful Evil character wants revenge against the King, but doesn't want to destabilize the region. He wants to hurt the man, not the office - as long as there is a King, there will remain order, ideally one that can benefit the character. He will therefore seek to construct a series of events which will ruin the King personally, forcing him to abdicate. Ideally, the character will either put himself or someone under his control in a position to succeed the King.

    CE: The Chaotic Evil character wants revenge against the King, ideally in a manner that also destabilizes the region. He wants to hurt the man by attacking the office - by ruining the Crown, he will leave the King an impotent shell of a man, with a worthless title and wealth he can't protect. He will therefore seek to construct a series of events which will drive the people into a state of revolt and rob the King of his supporters, both financial and political. He will drive the kingdom into bankruptcy and vulnerability, encouraging banditry and lawlessness to further undermine confidence in the King's ability to maintain peace and order. Whether the King abdicates is irrelevant; ideally, the King remains King, until either the title means nothing or the mob comes for his head. In all likelihood, this also results in power for the character, either as a "hero" of the revolution or a leader of a newly-formed bandit company. Ideally, the King watches helplessly as everything he worked so hard to control burns around him.

    NE: The Neutral Evil character wants revenge against the King, and doesn't care how it impacts the region one way or the other, but as long as he's at it he would enjoy some personal benefit. In short, he wants to take from the King and give to himself. He will therefore construct a series of events that result in the King's death or prolonged agony and his own profit - for example, killing the King in a particularly conspicuous manner in order to create for himself the reputation of a desirable assassin-for-hire, or torturing the King to learn all of his profitable and valuable secrets, or engaging in a bargain with Dark Powers to trade King or Kingdom for some personal gain. Whether the Kingdom remains or burns is not relevant to his schemes, so long as it maximizes his benefit and the King's suffering at the same time.
    I like the lawful evil one best.

    Although, I’m not quite disciplined enough to be truly lawful.

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