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    Default Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Seriously, Healing Spirit gets a bad wrap, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. This seems very balanced for its level and purpose. What am I missing?

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    You can use it outside of combat and have every member of your party be healed by 10d6 HP each for the low price of a minute of spare time and a level 2 spell slot.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Which is still not as effective as a long rest. I mean if your party has a deadline then it's great but otherwise it burns a spell slot you could've replaced with Hit Dice.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Healing Spirit

    "Healer" I found among the Feats in the PHB, and "Healing Word" I found among the Spells, but "Healing Spirit"?

    Which book is it in?

    Well whichever it's in (Xanthar's?, SCAG?) the strike against it is that my backpack is heavy enough with just the PHB and DMG, and one more is even more pain on my shoulders.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Which is still not as effective as a long rest. I mean if your party has a deadline then it's great but otherwise it burns a spell slot you could've replaced with Hit Dice.
    I mean, if it’s comparable to a long rest as a level 2 spell, that’s still pretty powerful. And it’s basically a full heal on the whole party, for minimal investment. It’s a more powerful out-of-combat heal than other spells that are designed just for that.

    It’s easy enough to modify it to make it weaker, but it’s definitely more powerful than it should be.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Xanathar's, I believe. I feel your pain, as on behalf of your orthopedic surgeon, I would recommend you switch to pdf's.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Except Catnap is a 3rd level arcane spell that lets you take a short rest in 10 minutes. I haven't seen anyone nerf that either, and it's not even available as a divine spell.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Except Catnap is a 3rd level arcane spell that lets you take a short rest in 10 minutes. I haven't seen anyone nerf that either, and it's not even available as a divine spell.
    One minute is one tenth of ten minutes (and one 480th of eight hours), it doesn't require you to be unalert, doesn't require spending resources other than a 2nd level slot...

    So yeah. Healing Spirit is just kinda borked in terms of healing.

    I'm not against players having good access to healing, though. It lets me make fights harder without as much concern about them dropping.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Except Catnap is a 3rd level arcane spell that lets you take a short rest in 10 minutes. I haven't seen anyone nerf that either, and it's not even available as a divine spell.
    And you can't see how being able to get the HP benefits of a long rest with a 2nd level spell might be a teensy bit broken in comparison to Catnap?
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Healing Spirit is basically an upgrade to what was already considered one of the most powerful healing combos in the game: Life Cleric / Lore Bard taking Aura of Vitality. Life Cleric 1 / anything with Healing Spirit is basically an ugprade to that, because it affects an area, is more versatile (with its great up/downcasting), and can potentially activate more than once per round.

    It is legitimately hard for many standard monsters' DPR to keep up with that (remember, healing auto-hits), and that's just your bonus action every round. And it'll heal the party back up to full after the combat's over, too.

    It's not just the base 1d6/round at level 2 that makes it strong. It's all the synergies and tactics and little niggling properties that allow you to push it further (such as the fact that it upcasts well, or can activate multiple times).

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    If you're playing the opposition intelligently, shouldn't they notice the PCs have healed, and try to target the one whose carrying all the holy goodies? Like, c'mon guys. This isn't that big a deal. I don't see how this gives you the benefit of a rest (it heals you - that's it). It's not a viable replacement for other sources of healing.

    And remember, anything the PCs can do, the monsters can do, too.
    Last edited by Sparky McDibben; 2019-04-14 at 06:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Except Catnap is a 3rd level arcane spell that lets you take a short rest in 10 minutes. I haven't seen anyone nerf that either, and it's not even available as a divine spell.
    catnap is only able to affect a character once per day

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    I know, right? And if you're playing the opposition intelligently, shouldn't they notice the PCs have healed, and try to target the one whose carrying all the holy goodies?
    How would your monsters know which character is using the spell? Have they been tracking the party’s health the whole time and noticing what is going on?

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    If you're playing the opposition intelligently, shouldn't they notice the PCs have healed, and try to target the one whose carrying all the holy goodies? Like, c'mon guys. This isn't that big a deal. I don't see how this gives you the benefit of a rest (it heals you - that's it). It's not a viable replacement for other sources of healing.

    And remember, anything the PCs can do, the monsters can do, too.
    Thats all the more reason to remove it, IMO.

    Also most people argue that it’s broken in regards to out-of-Combat healing, where it definitely does outclass most other sources of healing.

    You compare it to long or short resting but neither of those can be accomplished in a single minute.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn View Post
    How would your monsters know which character is using the spell? Have they been tracking the party’s health the whole time and noticing what is going on?
    Yes. The monsters want to survive, too. If they have had time to plan, give them a spellcaster and a few scrolls of either counterspell or dispel magic. Between fights when the party uses healing spirit for the second time, BOOM! Hit them with another attack and take away that spell slot.

    Now you've put the PCs on notice: the monsters are watching you. The monsters are learning from you. And the monsters are smart enough to plan around your abilities.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Yes. The monsters want to survive, too. If they have had time to plan, give them a spellcaster and a few scrolls of either counterspell or dispel magic. Between fights when the party uses healing spirit for the second time, BOOM! Hit them with another attack and take away that spell slot.

    Now you've put the PCs on notice: the monsters are watching you. The monsters are learning from you. And the monsters are smart enough to plan around your abilities.
    And the GM is pulling stuff out of his behind to stop players using unbalanced spell.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    IMO it would be fine if the healing effect could only activate once per turn (rather than once per person per turn).

    Not just for reasons of power but because it feels so stupid to end each fight with the party doing an acrobatics routine to regain health.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    And the GM is pulling stuff out of his behind to stop players using unbalanced spell.
    No, I'm playing monsters in a resourceful, intelligent fashion. I'm letting my players use their resources to full effect and reacting accordingly. Assuming the PCs have decent Perception, they'll have a chance to disrupt their enemies. Almost like we're playing D&D or something.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    No, I'm playing monsters in a resourceful, intelligent fashion. I'm letting my players use their resources to full effect and reacting accordingly. Assuming the PCs have decent Perception, they'll have a chance to disrupt their enemies. Almost like we're playing D&D or something.
    So, how many enemies are already level 3 or higher Druids? Or level 6 (I think) or higher Rangers?

    Because otherwise, they don't have access to the spell.

    In addition to that, a Player/DM arms race is BAD. It's just not healthy for the game. If you don't like players using Healing Spirit, just ban it.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Look, if your problem with the spell's use is that it's too good at out-of-combat healing, then the monster's goal should be to not let them cast it out of combat if possible. Y'all, this isn't a problem if you react intelligently and creatively.

    Healing spirit gives some great healing out of combat. It's not as good as a short rest because it doesn't replenish resources. It might nerf encounters against underprepared or stupid enemies, but otherwise all it lets you do is run more dangerous dungeons with enemies that can heal the way the PCs do.

    Again...why do y'all hate this spell so much?

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Again...why do y'all hate this spell so much?
    Because it pigeonholes the DM into only using monsters who are intelligent and resources and in a position to reacts to the spell. That's restrictive, to say nothing of the argument this can cause if players feel the DM is being too generous with the monster's tactical abilities.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    So, how many enemies are already level 3 or higher Druids? Or level 6 (I think) or higher Rangers?

    Because otherwise, they don't have access to the spell.

    In addition to that, a Player/DM arms race is BAD. It's just not healthy for the game. If you don't like players using Healing Spirit, just ban it.
    I would agree! Adversarial DMing is bad, full stop.

    However, I don't consider that an arms race. I'm not trying to kill the party, the monsters are. Again, if it doesn't make sense for the monsters to have done recon, then don't play them that way. But otherwise, play up every advantage you can reasonably get your grubby little paws on.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    As long as we are doing an arms race, holy symbols are cheap. If the entire party is wearing them do your monsters always target the right pc? Because this is beginning to look less like intelligent monsters and more like meta gaming. Also, many monsters are stupid. Some are animals. And some get killed to the last man in an encounter and can’t tell their buddies what the pcs did in combat or immediately after it. And if the dm pulls that trick, can a pc use simple illusion to fake a healing spirit first, let it be dispelled by the bad guys, and then have the cleric cast the real healing spirit?

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Some people are bothered PCs are at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day.

    Some even for the first.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Some people are bothered PCs are at full hit points for the non-first combat of the day.

    Some even for the first.
    Pex, can you agree that (relative to the rest of the healing in 5E) Healing Spirit is out of whack?

    Now, you can argue that it's fine (and I'd be willing to agree with you, for a large portion of games) but it's kinda hard to say with a straight face that it's in-line with the other healing spells available to the players.

    But, to address Sparky... Either allow the spell or don't. Don't "allow" it and punish the players for using it. If you're okay with the players going into most fights with full HP at the cost of a 2nd level spell (which, at low levels, is actually not always an easy trade to make, though at high levels it's chump change) then allow it. If not, then just straight-up disallow the spell.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Which is still not as effective as a long rest. I mean if your party has a deadline then it's great but otherwise it burns a spell slot you could've replaced with Hit Dice.
    May not be as effective as a long rest

    But compare it to another 2nd level healing spell
    Prayer of Healing
    10 minute cast time
    6 creatures heal 2d8+mod

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Look, if your problem with the spell's use is that it's too good at out-of-combat healing, then the monster's goal should be to not let them cast it out of combat if possible. Y'all, this isn't a problem if you react intelligently and creatively.

    Healing spirit gives some great healing out of combat. It's not as good as a short rest because it doesn't replenish resources. It might nerf encounters against underprepared or stupid enemies, but otherwise all it lets you do is run more dangerous dungeons with enemies that can heal the way the PCs do.

    Again...why do y'all hate this spell so much?
    The spell is too good for its level. That is the problem. Compare it to a second level Cure Wounds, Goodberry or Healing Word. Put it up against Prayer of Healing or Aura of Vitality. It's very, very efficient.

    Yes, you can deal with the problem easily and in multiple ways. But that is different to saying there is no problem.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Pex, can you agree that (relative to the rest of the healing in 5E) Healing Spirit is out of whack?

    Now, you can argue that it's fine (and I'd be willing to agree with you, for a large portion of games) but it's kinda hard to say with a straight face that it's in-line with the other healing spells available to the players.
    I am not Pex, but I agree. There is a disctinction here though, that I think is worth pointing out. Healing spirit does not necessarily make all the other healing spells less good (talking about out of combat healing), because it's on a different spell list. If all these spells were on the same spell list, then yeah, that would be a problem. As is, it only really hits goodberry. And I am tempted to think this was intentional. Ie the designers wanted to give the druid a very good out of combat healing spell, so that we can see less of the goodberry stacking nonsense.
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-04-14 at 07:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Some people play DnD has a resource game. Days are long, spells run dry if used recklessly, resources get expended. Health is a major resource that drains. A short rest helps a lot, but eventually your hit dice run dry too. Eventually players are left making tough choices, taking note of what they have left for each combat, whether the current time-based objective can wait a night, or if they should down some healing potions. Or even abandon the mission altogether, if the objective isn't worth the risk.

    I've started to prefer running my game this way, because it rewards players for figuring out an efficient way to beat an encounter, it's less swingy and easier for me to balance since I don't need to make every combat life or death, yet still causes tension when a poor decision can wear a party out long before they accomplish what they set out to do.

    Healing spirit throws off that careful balance, making any class that can cast it feel mandatory in that kind of game. It's just way more healing then anyone else can provide for the same resource. Yes, I could throw tougher combats to counter it, but that only makes it feel even more mandatory.
    Last edited by Frozenstep; 2019-04-14 at 07:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky McDibben View Post
    Look, if your problem with the spell's use is that it's too good at out-of-combat healing, then the monster's goal should be to not let them cast it out of combat if possible. Y'all, this isn't a problem if you react intelligently and creatively.
    Unless your campaign is, like, one constant fight against well-coordinated enemies, it's pretty hard to reasonably interrupt a minute of downtime. The healing isn't happening on the battlefield; it's happening between fights, after all the enemies (or PCs) are dead or fled, and there's no immediate threat to life or limb.
    Last edited by Grod_The_Giant; 2019-04-14 at 07:58 PM.

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