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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by NaughtyTiger View Post
    +1d6 per character per turn is still much better than similar power healing ability.
    On that we agree but I am not sure we have the same opinion if that makes sense.
    I have not made and exhaustive search, but looking over it the healing in PHB looks pretty bad past the first level options. This seems to me like this is a good heal spell, as opposed to bad heal spells. If I am missing something please tell me.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    On that we agree but I am not sure we have the same opinion if that makes sense.
    i get it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    I have not made and exhaustive search, but looking over it the healing in PHB looks pretty bad past the first level options.
    folks who have done the exhaustive search point out that PHB healing sucks for the first 5 levels.

    (folks have pointed out powerful but niche healing in the t1-t2 categories)
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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    I would probably just say the summoned spirit draws on fighting spirit to heal and it only works during combat.

    Either that or everyone full heals between battles.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    On that we agree but I am not sure we have the same opinion if that makes sense.
    I have not made and exhaustive search, but looking over it the healing in PHB looks pretty bad past the first level options. This seems to me like this is a good heal spell, as opposed to bad heal spells. If I am missing something please tell me.
    Xans added a ton of low tier healing and THP sources. Most of them are solid alternative from the PHB where HS just being the best.

    All and all if healing is the biggest form of power creep we have I'd call it a win.
    * I consider Rangers/druid subclasses in xans as a back door buff to the least popular classes.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    It's ok to have a difference of opinion to say the established healing spells are fine and Healing Spirit is too much for the level. I'm willing to agree to disagree on that, but I maintain my position that the established healing spells aren't adequate so if Healing Spirit heals more than they do I count it as a feature not a bug. That's one side of the argument.
    the argument isn't that they are fine or not - that's taste. It's that other healing spells are more or less in line with each other.

    Healing spirit is not.

    Heck - have you considered, that if it actually was a feature .... that WotC just made an EPICfail, in that, they didn't give the fix for healing to the healing domain cleric, not even the cleric, but the druid.


    I mean ... can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???
    Last edited by qube; 2019-04-16 at 04:27 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    the argument isn't that they are fine or not - that's taste. It's that other healing spells are more or less in line with each other.

    Healing spirit is not.

    Heck - have you considered, that if it actually was a feature .... that WotC just made an EPICfail, in that, they didn't give the fix for healing to the healing domain cleric, not even the cleric, but the druid.


    I mean ... can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???
    That's why if it was a ranger only spell it would tone it down a ton. Putting it 5 levels deep in a half caster would keep it from wrecking low lv recovery.
    Sure bards can steal it but at steep cost of a magic secret.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    the argument isn't that they are fine or not - that's taste. It's that other healing spells are more or less in line with each other.

    Healing spirit is not.

    Heck - have you considered, that if it actually was a feature .... that WotC just made an EPICfail, in that, they didn't give the fix for healing to the healing domain cleric, not even the cleric, but the druid.


    I mean ... can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???
    I still call it a feature that good healing is available from multiple sources in a variety ways. No one player is healbot.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    So I really dislike the spell myself, for similar reasons to what others have said. I'll go ahead and explain my first (and so far, only) encounter with it.

    I played for the first time just under a year ago. It was an adventurer's league game at a local game shop, though run as a standard campaign rather than through AL rules. I started at level 5, and we hit level 6 at the end of my first session. By the time of this story, we'd hit level 7. This was what I would consider my first "major" combat encounter.

    I wanted to play a really good healer. My first character was a life cleric. Nowhere near optimized, focused primarily on healing. Heck by this point I hadn't even understood the concept of bonus actions well, so I hadn't prepped healing word or mass healing word. Ironically, I also had dropped my cleric into a party that had two other clerics, but that meant the others could focus on some more damaging spells. In theory.

    The fight was, well, nasty. We triggered it in a terrible positioning, and only made it worse for ourselves going in. I'd also blown a few spell slots on an earlier encounter, but I still had a 3rd level and my 4th level slot left. We had two melee types with a cleric behind each healing them, and me attempting to get or keep the rest of the (large) party conscious. If I hadn't cast the spell beacon of hope off at the very beginning of combat while we were still clustered together, we'd have probably lost multiple party members and possibly even TPKed (at least one paladin with a cleric focusing just on him was knocked out once, as were all 3 I was protecting). We had to end the session in the middle of combat. I had only a few spell slots left (and no channel divinity) and thought for sure we were gonna wipe the next week.

    Next week, one player who had missed the previous session returned (bringing us up to 9 players at the table IIRC). He was a ranger, and the DM had him join at the end of initiative order outside the room where the combat was taking place. Over the next 3 rounds, we got the combat mostly under control, but in the process I used my last 3 spells bringing people back to consciousness. I'd also taken a few blows myself and lost concentration, I actually had become a major target due to positioning and came close to going down myself.

    Then the ranger, who had missed the previous session, cast healing spirit. On the same turn as he downed one of our foes with his two attacks. And it just stays around healing over and over, keeping or bringing people up, and switching targets while he kept attacking. I didn't know how it worked, I just knew that there existed a healing over time spell and I wanted it. I'd built my character to be "healer" after all, and he was essentially doing my job and a ton of damage on top of it.

    And then when combat ended, he got to use it to heal people 5 more times. I felt super jealous of that spell. I felt totally outclassed in that moment because of just how good that spell was at healing. And here's the thing. He wasn't using the spell right. He treated it as a heal on ONE person per turn, including the turns outside of combat. 10 1d6 ticks of in combat healing, while he was free to attack twice with his bow every turn including the one he cast it, while still being able to control who he targets for heals (and reviving the unconscious) felt like it was doing everything I was and then some.

    Had he been playing it optimally, and restored that 1d6 (or more) hp to EVERYONE out of combat (and multiple people in combat) with a second level spell? I probably would have considered my character completely superfluous to the group, and maybe not even come back the next week.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I still call it a feature that good healing is available from multiple sources in a variety ways. No one player is healbot.
    There's a nuance you missed. I didn't ask

    can someone explain to me, why the druid of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric

    I asked

    can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

    As in, a druid who went with the combat/melee subclass vs the cleric who picked the healing domain.

    Just like, to the question "why is the sword & board fighter better in ranged combat then the archer?" - answering "all character should have some ranged damage. no character is the ranged character" is a very unsattifying answer. it fails to adress the question.

    It is not mutually exclusive to want something - and aknowledging that the way something is "fixed" is horribly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by x1372
    I'd built my character to be "healer" after all, and he was essentially doing my job and a ton of damage on top of it.

    I felt super jealous of that spell. I felt totally outclassed in that moment because of just how good that spell was at healing. And here's the thing. He wasn't using the spell right. He treated it as a heal on ONE person per turn
    Quoted, as testament to my point.
    Last edited by qube; 2019-04-17 at 12:37 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    There's a nuance you missed. I didn't ask

    can someone explain to me, why the druid of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric

    I asked

    can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???

    As in, a druid who went with the combat/melee subclass vs the cleric who picked the healing domain.

    Just like, to the question "why is the sword & board fighter better in ranged combat then the archer?" - answering "all character should have some ranged damage. no character is the ranged character" is a very unsattifying answer. it fails to adress the question.

    It is not mutually exclusive to want something - and aknowledging that the way something is "fixed" is horribly wrong.


    Quoted, as testament to my point.
    Who says the cleric has to be the best? I don't give a Hoover who's the absolute best to the last hit point. Different characters can provide healing in different ways. Each way helps the party, and I'm thrilled if more than one party member can do it. The ones who heal have a chance to do something else because someone else does the healing at the moment.
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  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I still call it a feature that good healing is available from multiple sources in a variety ways. No one player is healbot.
    This. Spread the healing around.
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Healing Spirit isn't "a variety of sources in multiple ways", and there's no other source of healing that's anywhere near as good.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Panda View Post
    Honestly, Healing Spirit is fine. It's not broken. It's only overpowered in comparison to Prayer of Healing
    The problem isn't that it's notably better than Prayer of Healing, it's that it's notably better than Aura of Vitality.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2019-04-17 at 09:20 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Panda View Post
    Honestly, Healing Spirit is fine. It's not broken. It's only overpowered in comparison to Prayer of Healing, but as Treantmonk put it (paraphrasing), why do that? Prayer of Healing is garbage.
    This is very very simply not true.

    It's overpowered compare to:
    • hit dice
    • goodberry
    • cure wounds
    • aura of vitality
    • prayer of healing
    • healer (the feat)
    • inspiring leader


    It makes healing focused subclasses like the grave cleric cry. It makes complex healing focused builds look rather silly and pointless. It makes *simple* healing focused builds look pretty unnapealing. Why grab the healer feat when HS already gives everyone more HP than they know what to do with?

    This is a huge jump in power creep, which reduces the number of relatively 'good' options to one spell and consigns everything else to the garbage bin. Prayer of healing was 'bad' before, but was still worth casting sometimes because the opportunity cost was so low. Now its straight garbage. Obviously if there's no one in the party who takes HS, then this problem doesn't come up, but how would you feel if you were playing a healer thief and then Jeremy up and rolls up with a druid and completely makes your feat irrelevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Panda View Post
    D&D has a lot of things that can genuinely break your game, but healing spirit is just a powerful recovery tool. It does not significantly outshine a life cleric/goodberry combo. There is only so much hp to recover, the hypothetical maximum is usually irrelevant. Your characters might have full hp after a few fights but have burned their other key resources, and that matters.
    First of all, it does greatly outshine greatberry at mid to high levels. Greatberry heals 60 HP to everyone. Level 2 healing spirit heals everyone for 20d6, or 70. Level 3 heals 140.

    Secondly, greatberry requires significant build investment. A druid with a level of life cleric heals the party for 170 with a second level spell.

    Thirdly, yes, healing is only useful to a point. But in any game where healing actually matters, Healing Spirit breaks the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Xans added a ton of low tier healing and THP sources. Most of them are solid alternative from the PHB where HS just being the best.

    All and all if healing is the biggest form of power creep we have I'd call it a win.
    * I consider Rangers/druid subclasses in xans as a back door buff to the least popular classes.
    Humorously, Xanathar has IMO the weakest ranger subclass in the game, the horizon walker.
    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    That's why if it was a ranger only spell it would tone it down a ton. Putting it 5 levels deep in a half caster would keep it from wrecking low lv recovery.
    Sure bards can steal it but at steep cost of a magic secret.
    Yes, this is a fix I'm fine with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Who says the cleric has to be the best? I don't give a Hoover who's the absolute best to the last hit point. Different characters can provide healing in different ways. Each way helps the party, and I'm thrilled if more than one party member can do it. The ones who heal have a chance to do something else because someone else does the healing at the moment.
    It's not that the cleric needs to be best. Its that if you want to focus on healing but don't want to be a druid you'll be completely outshined.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2019-04-17 at 09:26 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Just a quick note on the utility of the spell. I may not be the absolute best at the game's combat system, but I played a cleric for six months, as well as a paladin and a bard briefly for other characters who had healing.

    If you cut it to 1d4, only let it effect one character per round, and made it require a 3rd level spell slot, healing spirit is absolutely worth using.

    If you kept it exactly as is except made it heal only 1 HP (including a clause about it ignoring life cleric bonuses) instead of 1d6, healing spirit is absolutely worth using.

    The value of being able to spend a spell slot, and then, for 10 rounds, use a bonus action to bring an unconscious player back up and able to fight is simply amazing with the way 5e combat works, and that's ignoring the out of combat benefits. Even at 1HP/round, it still would compare favorably to prayer of healing out of combat.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    If you really think that there is a healing imbalance that needs to be fixed for your campaign, why dont you just take Healing Spirit, change the fluff from a spirit to a column of healing light, slap a different name on it and jam it in the lists you think are lacking and should have it?
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    We've changed it to have the heal trigger when someone ends its turn in it. Worked wonders - effectively becomes 1x round, and creates positioning issues monsters can exploit.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by qube View Post
    I mean ... can someone explain to me, why the werewolf of the party is supposed to be better at healing then the cleric of Ilmater ???
    This, to me, is the biggest problem (though, to be fair, we've had about 3 dozen people say what the different biggest problem is).

    It's not just that its the best healing ability, it's the issue that it takes zero investment. Yeah yeah, opportunity cost of 1 spell splot. However, if the ranger or druid was going to have Cure Wounds, they should just replace it with this. Other than that, the Ranger or Druid can still do their damage builds and still be the party healer, as compared to Life clerics or Healers or others who cannot take back their choices like a D/R can just...choose a new spell at a long rest.

    It would be like the Cleric getting a radiant Fireball at level 2. Sure, there are other offensive spells that can be used. But if the Cleric wants to just spam that, now they are a better blaster than a Sorc and still be the party's Support.

    If you want to be the best at some core party function, it should take more time than just leveling to lv.3.

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnitis View Post
    This, to me, is the biggest problem (though, to be fair, we've had about 3 dozen people say what the different biggest problem is).
    It's kind of nice to have an issue where there are vastly different reasons why something is or isn't good. It has been a while where the actual nuances and finer details of the different arguments are more important than a straightforward 'is this too much?' Personally, I think the spell itself is too much healing per spell level or exactly the right amount of healing per spell level (and thus what the other healing spells should have been in the first place) explicitly depending on what kind of game you are running. Which is to say I fall on both sides of that issue. Yet I still dislike the spell for some of the other reasons (I think Life cleric or others who have dedicated themselves to the role should be the best at the task, I dislike how the spell incentivizes 'gaming' the spell wording, etc.).

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    One subset of players: "Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing. I wish they'd give more options to heal and fix this."

    A group of DMs: "My players keep trying to take short rests so they can heal with dice, and it's ruining the flow of my game. I wish they'd add some better recovery options."

    Healing spirit is added.

    A different group of players: "Geez, you guys totally made my healbot feel worthless! We need to nerf this spell cause I don't have it."

    Another group of DMs: "This spell is totally ruining my ability to kill my players via attrition. Nerf it or ban it please."

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing.
    This isn't true at all, you don't need a healbot in 5e, you don't even need a spellcaster in the party at all.

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karnitis View Post
    This, to me, is the biggest problem (though, to be fair, we've had about 3 dozen people say what the different biggest problem is).

    It's not just that its the best healing ability, it's the issue that it takes zero investment. Yeah yeah, opportunity cost of 1 spell splot. However, if the ranger or druid was going to have Cure Wounds, they should just replace it with this. Other than that, the Ranger or Druid can still do their damage builds and still be the party healer, as compared to Life clerics or Healers or others who cannot take back their choices like a D/R can just...choose a new spell at a long rest.

    It would be like the Cleric getting a radiant Fireball at level 2. Sure, there are other offensive spells that can be used. But if the Cleric wants to just spam that, now they are a better blaster than a Sorc and still be the party's Support.

    If you want to be the best at some core party function, it should take more time than just leveling to lv.3.
    Cleric of Light

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    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Cleric of Light

    Not literally a radiant Fireball, but they get Fireball, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, and Flaming Sphere. They can also channel burst radiant damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daphne View Post
    This isn't true at all, you don't need a healbot in 5e, you don't even need a spellcaster in the party at all.
    "Sorry, my God thinks healing magic is for wimps and doesn't grant those spells." 😁
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    One subset of players: "Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing. I wish they'd give more options to heal and fix this."

    A group of DMs: "My players keep trying to take short rests so they can heal with dice, and it's ruining the flow of my game. I wish they'd add some better recovery options."

    Healing spirit is added.

    A different group of players: "Geez, you guys totally made my healbot feel worthless! We need to nerf this spell cause I don't have it."

    Another group of DMs: "This spell is totally ruining my ability to kill my players via attrition. Nerf it or ban it please."
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temperjoke View Post
    One subset of players: "Man, every time I roll a cleric, I get forced into being a healbot by my party, cause no one has healing. I wish they'd give more options to heal and fix this."

    A group of DMs: "My players keep trying to take short rests so they can heal with dice, and it's ruining the flow of my game. I wish they'd add some better recovery options."

    Healing spirit is added.

    A different group of players: "Geez, you guys totally made my healbot feel worthless! We need to nerf this spell cause I don't have it."

    Another group of DMs: "This spell is totally ruining my ability to kill my players via attrition. Nerf it or ban it please."
    This would hold water, except that your first group of DMs and players are clueless.

    Between hit dice and nearly half the classes having access to healing, nobody should ever have expected a non-life cleric to function as a healbot.

    I have literally never seen a DM complaining that their players try to take too many short rests. I have seen complaints about the five minute adventuring day, but that's not really related to healing.

    Will anyone directly answer my question? You're a thief with the healer feat. You're an important person in the party. How do you feel when Jeremy rolls up with a druid and casually makes your role kinda disappear? And even if this wouldn't upset you, can you at least see how it's upsetting to other players??
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2019-04-17 at 01:17 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #176
    Orc in the Playground
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    Nov 2014

    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Cleric of Light

    Not literally a radiant Fireball, but they get Fireball, Burning Hands, Scorching Ray, and Flaming Sphere. They can also channel burst radiant damage.
    Which makes them a reasonably good blaster. Not by far and away the best blaster, but competitive.

  27. - Top - End - #177
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesps View Post
    Which makes them a reasonably good blaster. Not by far and away the best blaster, but competitive.
    Right - which is fine, no one says the Light cleric is broken. but if their fireball was a Level 2 spell slot that could very much change things.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Imbalance's Avatar

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    Dec 2018

    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Will anyone directly answer my question? You're a thief with the healer feat. You're an important person in the party. How do you feel when Jeremy rolls up with a druid and casually makes your role kinda disappear? And even if this wouldn't upset you, can you at least see how it's upsetting to other players??
    I'll take a stab at it: Jeremy is no less important with his druid than I am with my thief. Jeremy's druid has other options, has given me more opportunities for thieving, and together we can divide healing duties. I can see how this might be upsetting to certain types of players, yes, but that doesn't make it bad or wrong.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    I added this line to the spell and it became much more tolerable to my games.

    "The Spirit will only activate in the throes of combat."

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Pex's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why Does Everyone Hate Healing Spirit?

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    This would hold water, except that your first group of DMs and players are clueless.

    Between hit dice and nearly half the classes having access to healing, nobody should ever have expected a non-life cleric to function as a healbot.

    I have literally never seen a DM complaining that their players try to take too many short rests. I have seen complaints about the five minute adventuring day, but that's not really related to healing.

    Will anyone directly answer my question? You're a thief with the healer feat. You're an important person in the party. How do you feel when Jeremy rolls up with a druid and casually makes your role kinda disappear? And even if this wouldn't upset you, can you at least see how it's upsetting to other players??
    The druid can use the spell when the party isn't short resting after a combat. When the party is short resting the druid saves his spell slot and the thief uses Healer feat since the use refreshes on a short rest. Sometimes the druid will need his spell slot for other things, but the Healer feat is still there. Sometimes a PC needs emergency healing in combat, more than just to stay alive whack a mole. Healing Spirit won't suffice, but Healer feat does. Sometimes the party only needs an amount of healing the Healer feat provides. To use Healing Spirit would be a waste because not all of it is needed, so might as well let the thief use Healer feat and save the spell slot for later, possibly for a spell that's not Healing Spirit.

    It's quite easy to cooperate than resent the other PC for existing.
    Quote Originally Posted by OvisCaedo View Post
    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

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