Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

[Psyren]

The most recent thread I could find is past the necromancy limit, so here we are, at long last, new season!

This was an episode of long (in some cases VERY long) overdue reunions and some first meetings, and I loved every single one of them.

Spoiler: Episode 1

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Reunions: Jon and Bran, Jon and Arya, Tyrion and Sansa, Arya and the Hound, Arya and Gendry, Samwell and Jon, Samwell and Bran, Samwell and Jorah, Theon and Yara, and a smaller one with Euron + Cersei maneuvering each other.

Meetings: Daenerys and Sansa (meow), Daenerys and Samwell (ouch).

I found it amusing how Littlefinger got barely a mention when he set so much of these events in motion.

I'm beyond excited for the rest of the season, and judging by the last couple of scenes we're not getting much of a breather before everything catches fire... or should I say, ice?

EDIT: Here's the ]Season 8 Trailer. Now we're beginning to see which bits were in episode 1 and which ones will be coming down the road.

[0wca88]

The wall is down.

[Dienekes]

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And so ends House Umber, my favorite house in the books, sadly never really getting its full due in the show.

In any case, enjoyed the episode. Glad that some of Dany's burn first ask questions never mentality is biting her in the ass.

Noticing the lengths taken to make certain Lena Headey and Jerome Flynn don't have to share a scene is a little hilarious. And come now, Cersei who tried to assassinate Bronn in the books is now going to trust him to kill her brothers? Of all possible assassins? The one who actually would have a reason not to do it.

But yeah, good episode. Interested to see how it goes. I like that Arya and Sansa seem to understand each other now and respect each others methods.

[deuterio12]

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And so ends House Umber, my favorite house in the books, sadly never really getting its full due in the show.

In any case, enjoyed the episode. Glad that some of Dany's burn first ask questions never mentality is biting her in the ass.

Noticing the lengths taken to make certain Lena Headey and Jerome Flynn don't have to share a scene is a little hilarious. And come now, Cersei who tried to assassinate Bronn in the books is now going to trust him to kill her brothers? Of all possible assassins? The one who actually would have a reason not to do it.

But yeah, good episode. Interested to see how it goes. I like that Arya and Sansa seem to understand each other now and respect each others methods.

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Dany explicitly did offer them a chance to bend the knee. She just doesn't ask again. And all in all she still rose from a slave to a queen with dragons and possibly the strongest army in Westeros after the zombie one.

Cersei's running out of competent minions. Besides she never was the smartest/sanest person in the room. Also there's already penty of divergence between the book and series since in the paper version Euron wanted to get between Dany's legs, not Cersei.

I'm glad they at least aknowledge the "how exactly are we going to feed two extra armies and dragons in the middle of winter while giving ground?" bit since season 7 logistics seemed to don't matter anymore.

[Magic_Hat]

This episode reminded me of an episode of the Simpsons:

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The episode where Bart gets an elephant. Cersei just wants an elephant.

[Psyren]

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Noticing the lengths taken to make certain Lena Headey and Jerome Flynn don't have to share a scene is a little hilarious. And come now, Cersei who tried to assassinate Bronn in the books is now going to trust him to kill her brothers? Of all possible assassins? The one who actually would have a reason not to do it.

You know, I never noticed that until you mentioned it and then I looked it up. That's indeed hilarious. I guess even professionals can be unprofessional.

With that said, there is a degree of plausible deniability she could be aiming for here. Neither target would buy it for a second, but it might fool the decidedly lesser minds in the court and House(s).

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I like that Arya and Sansa seem to understand each other now and respect each others methods.

At least Littlefinger was good for something

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Dany explicitly did offer them a chance to bend the knee. She just doesn't ask again.

Asking again (after an appropriate cooling down period in some chains) is a good ruler's job though. Tyrion's "What The Hell Hero" tongue-lashing was thoroughly justified. I'll quote it here:

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"Perhaps the father needed to die, and not the son. Perhaps they both needed time to contemplate their mistakes in the solitude of a cold cell. We had no time to discuss the possibilities before you ended their possibilities."

[Dr.Samurai]

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I really wish there had been some scenes of Dany addressing the Northerners. As is, she seems strangely (stupidly) silent and oblivious. She smiles as her dragons terrify the Northerners during the procession to Winterfell. She stays silent while the Northerners dissent against Jon Snow for bending the knee to her. She is completely and inhumanly emotionless when she reveals to Sam that she murdered his father and brother. In short, she's not helping her case, or Jon's for that matter, and therefore the fight against Winter.

The scene with the kid on the wall was a good jump scare :).

[deuterio12]

Asking again (after an appropriate cooling down period in some chains) is a good ruler's job though. Tyrion's "What The Hell Hero" tongue-lashing was thoroughly justified. I'll quote it here:

Before Dany used to burn/crucify first and questions never. Baby steps, baby steps.

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I really wish there had been some scenes of Dany addressing the Northerners. As is, she seems strangely (stupidly) silent and oblivious. She smiles as her dragons terrify the Northerners during the procession to Winterfell. She stays silent while the Northerners dissent against Jon Snow for bending the knee to her. She is completely and inhumanly emotionless when she reveals to Sam that she murdered his father and brother. In short, she's not helping her case, or Jon's for that matter, and therefore the fight against Winter.

The scene with the kid on the wall was a good jump scare :).

Great point.

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Dany used to be quite emotional and caring about the common people when being a ruler in a completely foreign land, and now suddenly she's a complete ice queen.

[Velaryon]

I enjoyed the episode. Lots of meetups and reunions, which I guess is pretty much inevitable since the action has narrowed down to just a few key locations. In particular I'm looking forward to the conversation between Jaime and Bran. That might be even more awkward than Dany and Sam.

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And so ends House Umber, my favorite house in the books, sadly never really getting its full due in the show.

In any case, enjoyed the episode. Glad that some of Dany's burn first ask questions never mentality is biting her in the ass.

Noticing the lengths taken to make certain Lena Headey and Jerome Flynn don't have to share a scene is a little hilarious. And come now, Cersei who tried to assassinate Bronn in the books is now going to trust him to kill her brothers? Of all possible assassins? The one who actually would have a reason not to do it.

But yeah, good episode. Interested to see how it goes. I like that Arya and Sansa seem to understand each other now and respect each others methods.

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Cersei isn't exactly spoiled for choices when it comes to good minions allies anymore. She's pretty much down to Mountain-stein, Qyburn, Euron, and Bronn. Of those, Bronn is the only one with the right combination of expendability and ability to get the job done.

You know, I never noticed that until you mentioned it and then I looked it up. That's indeed hilarious. I guess even professionals can be unprofessional.

I can't fault them. I've avoided applying for jobs that were otherwise pretty appealing because I didn't want to work alongside an ex. Then again, that's also why I would never date a coworker.

[Malifice]

Dany explicitly did offer them a chance to bend the knee. She just doesn't ask again.

It was an act the show took great pains to depict as the unecessary act of evil it was. Tyrion (consistently a morally upstanding, altruistic, compassionate and Good person) is violently opposed to it, and shares his concerns with Varys that perhaps Dany is no better than her father, and all her talk of 'breaking the wheel' is just her own justification for seizing power.

Varys then tells him to keep her in more brutal tendencies in check. She's always needed that morally good advisor counterpoint to keep her away from her baser instincs (Selmy Barristan briefly was able to restrain her more violent tendencies, Tyrion struggles with it now).

The show has been careful to cloak her more atrocious acts (crucifiction of the slavers, entombing her former handmaiden alive, having a random slaver eaten to death by her dragons, burning the Witch that killed her alive etc) behind seemingly altruistic motives, when the only real consistent motive she has ever displayed is returning to Westeros and claiming the Iron Throne.

In the last season she had to be actively counselled not to lay waste to half the continent, or raze Kings Landing to the ground. None of it's stopped her from using a massive army of Barbarians (who she knows from first hand experience are pretty much down with mass rape, taking slaves and extreme violence and savagery) to lay waste to half of Westeros or incinerating thousands of men (including her prisoners)

They're clearly trying to highlight that her claimed altruism is largely a sham, or just mostly a justification she uses to cloak her true motive (claim the Iron Throne) behind a noble (if terribly unspecific) goal of 'breaking the wheel'. The show writers have been gradually exposing this sham as the seasons progress. She wants to rule mainly because that's what she wants. She believes its her birthright.

Shes clearly not a Good person despite her outwardly altruistic motives (and the fact she often does Good things). She's no Cersie either (she aint Evil, despite the fact she has on occasion been as evil as Cersie) though. It'll be interesting how they develop her this season. Does she go down the 'burn them all' path of her Father (and turn on Jon) while still claiming its 'to break the wheel' and altruistic reasons, or does she actually live up to her claims of altruism and stop doing terrible things?

From the most recent season:

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When she was confronted with the consequences of her (evil) actions re Sam, she realises that what she did was wrong and clearly shows a level of remorse that an 'Evil' person likely wouldnt. It's not the first time she has come to this realization either (it echoed a similar realization re the Slavers mass Crucifixion).

The big kicker for me will be when she realises that her whole character arc for the entire story (she seeks the Iron Throne because its her birthright) is not actually correct, and that Jon is the rightful King and not her. Unlike Jon (as Sam rightly points out) she wont lay down and accept him as the rightful King (despite that exact reasoning as being behind her own claim to the throne).

If they stay true to her character arc, she's either going to have to turn on Jon, or actually accept the 'breaking the wheel' justifications she's been wrapping herself up in to convince herself of the righteousness of her often brutal actions. There is no way in hell she just lays down and accepts he's the real rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

[Otomodachi]

Whelp.

Spoiler: Bereft of source material, mediocrity ensues

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Been a couple seasons since any scene left in the show left a positive impression on me, if any impression at all. Gotta admit I mostly watch the show for the social experience.

There is a literal god damn numberless army of the dead marching down from the wall. It's not even that far away. And you numb ****s are sitting here flirting and having dates and arguing about god damn royal titles? I am now 100% in the camp that the ending is everyone starves to death. There is no other ending, with the scatterbrained hamfisted ways the characters have been written for the last several years, that will feel even vaguely plausible to me.

What's that Yara? You want to go back to the Iron Isles to prepare them, in case Dany needs a place to retreat to? The same Iron Isles that can't sustain the IRONBORN population, thus giving rise to a culture of reaving and piracy to keep population growth in check and resources coming in?

Sansa is the smartest person you know, Arya? The person obviously sniping the high Queen with a bigger army than you and two dragons, in public? The person wearing away at the alliance Jon built to stop the NUMBERLESS ARMY OF THE DEAD in the name of "who gets the crown OHNOES!"

Jon. NOONE has more experience with these walkers than you. WHY ARE YOU ON A MAGIC DRAGON DATE. GET TO WORK.

The episode managed to simultaneously ruin the FEELING of there being stakes on the line- because everyone's just running around doing silly vacuous **** instead of scouting, planning, organizing... god. We get like 2 minutes in the end of someone checking up on the Umbers. There's seriously NOONE scouting out the path of the army of the dead? NO scouts? NOONE? Not even old lightning-legs Gendry? Oh yeah he's too busy melting down obsidian to make weapons. GENDRY, the true hero of our story.

Everyone in Westeros dies, life goes on in Essos. The end. Humans are stupid and so they died.

Sorry if the tone of this is upsetting to you, seriously just ignore me if so- MY gripes should NOT mess with your ability to enjoy something you like, and by next episode my expectations will have died down and I'll just settle in for the ride to the end, most likely.

[Psyren]

I enjoyed the episode. Lots of meetups and reunions, which I guess is pretty much inevitable since the action has narrowed down to just a few key locations. In particular I'm looking forward to the conversation between Jaime and Bran. That might be even more awkward than Dany and Sam.

Knowing Bran:

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He'll be cool with the whole thing given what it led to, but I hope he gets a few choice telepathic/memetic digs in at Jaime; it's the least he deserves.

More importantly though, I think Bran vouching for him is going to be the only thing that keeps Jaime's head on its shoulders.

I can't fault them. I've avoided applying for jobs that were otherwise pretty appealing because I didn't want to work alongside an ex. Then again, that's also why I would never date a coworker.

Oh I wouldn't either - but I'd also expect the possibility of that to be much higher for actors than in many other professions. Certainly the possibility that the relationship won't last is higher for them. Everyone's situation is different, but it's something you'd ideally want to plan for.

At the very least, it shows that both actors are popular enough that the showrunners were willing to work around it.

Before Dany used to burn/crucify first and questions never. Baby steps, baby steps.

"Baby steps" are luxury she doesn't have - particularly given that she demands to not be treated like a child.

Great point.

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Dany used to be quite emotional and caring about the common people when being a ruler in a completely foreign land, and now suddenly she's a complete ice queen.

This part I'm actually less concerned about:

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She was following John's lead with the Northeners, likely cognizant of the fact that anything out of her mouth would make them distrust/resent her more. A Southern ruler speaking to them directly likely wouldn't have gone over well, and certainly if it provoked an acid remark from the likes of Lyanna, her own temper would be kindled in kind. Already she's making vaguely threatening remarks towards Sansa after all.

Sorry if the tone of this is upsetting to you, seriously just ignore me if so

Done!

Seriously though, you've got some valid gripes in there, but they are pretty handwaveable ones too. Putting Yara on a bus for example might not be the most tactically sound move, but her presence in the Northern fight just means Theon never gets his chance to truly shine or redeem himself, and I'd much rather have the latter.

[Dr.Samurai]

Whelp.

Spoiler: Bereft of source material, mediocrity ensues

Show

Been a couple seasons since any scene left in the show left a positive impression on me, if any impression at all. Gotta admit I mostly watch the show for the social experience.

There is a literal god damn numberless army of the dead marching down from the wall. It's not even that far away. And you numb ****s are sitting here flirting and having dates and arguing about god damn royal titles? I am now 100% in the camp that the ending is everyone starves to death. There is no other ending, with the scatterbrained hamfisted ways the characters have been written for the last several years, that will feel even vaguely plausible to me.

What's that Yara? You want to go back to the Iron Isles to prepare them, in case Dany needs a place to retreat to? The same Iron Isles that can't sustain the IRONBORN population, thus giving rise to a culture of reaving and piracy to keep population growth in check and resources coming in?

Sansa is the smartest person you know, Arya? The person obviously sniping the high Queen with a bigger army than you and two dragons, in public? The person wearing away at the alliance Jon built to stop the NUMBERLESS ARMY OF THE DEAD in the name of "who gets the crown OHNOES!"

Jon. NOONE has more experience with these walkers than you. WHY ARE YOU ON A MAGIC DRAGON DATE. GET TO WORK.

The episode managed to simultaneously ruin the FEELING of there being stakes on the line- because everyone's just running around doing silly vacuous **** instead of scouting, planning, organizing... god. We get like 2 minutes in the end of someone checking up on the Umbers. There's seriously NOONE scouting out the path of the army of the dead? NO scouts? NOONE? Not even old lightning-legs Gendry? Oh yeah he's too busy melting down obsidian to make weapons. GENDRY, the true hero of our story.

Everyone in Westeros dies, life goes on in Essos. The end. Humans are stupid and so they died.

Sorry if the tone of this is upsetting to you, seriously just ignore me if so- MY gripes should NOT mess with your ability to enjoy something you like, and by next episode my expectations will have died down and I'll just settle in for the ride to the end, most likely.

Well, I didn't want to poo-poo it given Psyren's very positive take on it (didn't want to spoil the good vibes), but I basically agree with everything you've said.

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I didn't like a lot of the reunions we saw:

1. Jon/Bran - This was okay. Can't really expect much now that Bran is a weirdo.
2. Jon/Arya - To be frank, Arya is an awful character now. Total edgelord. I didn't like the cavalier glossing over of not surviving a knife to the heart. Just something to joke about I guess lol. And I don't like that literally *everyone* has to be upset over Jon's choices. Arya and Jon were the most like family, so her reminding him not to forget that seems strange.
3. Arya/Hound - Underwhelming. She's staring him down like she's going to kill him or something. Give me a break. I didn't catch her response when he said "you left me to die" but I'm sure it was quippy and edgy.
4. Arya/Gendry - Very cold. Which I guess is Arya now, but I was expecting more. Especially given that last time they saw each other, she said "I can be your family" with tears in her eyes and he said "no you'd be my lady". You'd think there'd be some shock and cheer to discover the other is still alive. Maybe a hug or something? Nah. Arya just keeps dodging questions and leaving people hanging lol.
5. Jon/Sam - I liked this a lot. I forgot that they hadn't seen each other since Sam left the Wall. Happy to see some genuine cheer on someone's face.
6. Sam/Jorah and Dany - Less a reunion and more meeting Dany for the first time. I *hated* this scene. It was so strange. The actor playing Sam does such a great job but it feels so awkward because Dany and Jorah are standing there lifeless and emotionless. It was so bizarre, it pulled me right out of the story. Seems like a tool to drive Sam against Dany and push Jon to take his birthright, but seems so forced and fake. Dany in this episode is just weird all around.
7. Jaime/Bran - Well... we'll have to wait for the next episode. I'm sure Bran won't care, but Jaime doesn't know that obviously.

I really just wish they'd delve into the nitty gritty more. Have Jon make the case against the Night King and the need for Dany (instead of just saying it). Go over logistics and strategy. Explain how killing a White Walker destroys the wights under its control, and that Dany's dragons can clear the board while they try to go for the Walkers. Something. The writing really just feels like drama for the sake of drama. As I mentioned in my first post, Dany should be doing more to ingratiate herself to the North. Jon should be explaining what they are up against (powers of the White Walkers/wights and dragons) and demanding solutions in place of complaints. Explain that Dany lost a dragon saving his life, that the dragons can be killed, even with them the fight isn't guaranteed and they need all the North behind them.

Tyrion mentioning the Lannister army seemed like another writing tool to drum up more drama. Just seems like everyone is bumbling through this, calling people out, complaining, and making things worse. I just hope they unify for the upcoming battle, and that this drama they've laid down won't be important in the actual war. But my expectations have been low since around season 5 so we shall see.

[Psyren]

Well, I didn't want to poo-poo it given Psyren's very positive take on it (didn't want to spoil the good vibes), but I basically agree with everything you've said.

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I didn't like a lot of the reunions we saw:

1. Jon/Bran - This was okay. Can't really expect much now that Bran is a weirdo.
2. Jon/Arya - To be frank, Arya is an awful character now. Total edgelord. I didn't like the cavalier glossing over of not surviving a knife to the heart. Just something to joke about I guess lol. And I don't like that literally *everyone* has to be upset over Jon's choices. Arya and Jon were the most like family, so her reminding him not to forget that seems strange.
3. Arya/Hound - Underwhelming. She's staring him down like she's going to kill him or something. Give me a break. I didn't catch her response when he said "you left me to die" but I'm sure it was quippy and edgy.
4. Arya/Gendry - Very cold. Which I guess is Arya now, but I was expecting more. Especially given that last time they saw each other, she said "I can be your family" with tears in her eyes and he said "no you'd be my lady". You'd think there'd be some shock and cheer to discover the other is still alive. Maybe a hug or something? Nah. Arya just keeps dodging questions and leaving people hanging lol.
5. Jon/Sam - I liked this a lot. I forgot that they hadn't seen each other since Sam left the Wall. Happy to see some genuine cheer on someone's face.
6. Sam/Jorah and Dany - Less a reunion and more meeting Dany for the first time. I *hated* this scene. It was so strange. The actor playing Sam does such a great job but it feels so awkward because Dany and Jorah are standing there lifeless and emotionless. It was so bizarre, it pulled me right out of the story. Seems like a tool to drive Sam against Dany and push Jon to take his birthright, but seems so forced and fake. Dany in this episode is just weird all around.
7. Jaime/Bran - Well... we'll have to wait for the next episode. I'm sure Bran won't care, but Jaime doesn't know that obviously.

Agree with some points but thoroughly disagree with others. Focusing just on the latter:

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2. Arya reminding Jon that Sansa is family too is actually apropos here. Arya and Jon ARE very close (have always been) and she knows it. She's reminding him that Sansa deep down loves him too, and the North, as much as she herself does. And it's a reminder he needs, because Sansa is indeed doubting him at every turn (rightfully suspecting that where Dany is concerned, Jon might not be thinking with the right head, as it were.)

3. Arya's quip was "I robbed you first" - which I found quite funny. And it underscores the point that making her tough enough to survive on her own is exactly what he was trying to do (and succeeded at, if not at all how he envisioned.)

4. Uh... did we watch the same scene? Arya/Gendry wasn't cold at all. If anything, they (re)launched a thousand ships with that meeting. That coquettish turnaround as she sauntered out - very Classic Arya, and Maisie nailed it as usual

6. Dany's cold attitude was exactly the wrong approach to take with Sam, yes. But that's exactly the point of that scene, she's trying too hard to be a queen now that she's back here simply because she thinks it's her right to be, and it's finally starting to bite her in the ass. Especially given that they now have someone else who can (potentially) command her dragons, and who has a stronger claim to the 7K than she does.

For that last one, Malifice's summary nailed it, basically.

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Have Jon make the case against the Night King and the need for Dany (instead of just saying it). Go over logistics and strategy. Explain how killing a White Walker destroys the wights under its control, and that Dany's dragons can clear the board while they try to go for the Walkers. Something.

No, no, no! Absolutely none of that needs to be on-camera. We've got enough to cover this season without wasting that much time on info all the major players in Winterfell - hell, likely everyone in the North - already knows.

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The writing really just feels like drama for the sake of drama. As I mentioned in my first post, Dany should be doing more to ingratiate herself to the North. Jon should be explaining what they are up against (powers of the White Walkers/wights and dragons) and demanding solutions in place of complaints. Explain that Dany lost a dragon saving his life, that the dragons can be killed, even with them the fight isn't guaranteed and they need all the North behind them.

"Ingratiating" is exactly the wrong approach with the North. And the dragon thing is known too, Bran says it in front of basically everyone.

[Otomodachi]

Lots of things that I (Otomodachi) pretty much wholeheartedly agree with.[/SPOILER]

The Dany/Sam/Jorah scene had me laughing hysterically, which I am pretty sure is not what they were going for. It's usually IME pretty easy to get me to empathize with characters, so that's... not great. I tear up during fricking commercials sometimes.

Psyren's point about nitty-gritty logistical discussion being a time-eater is valid, but I also felt the lack. It just gave me the impression that the characters AND the creators aren't taking it seriously.

Done!

Seriously though, you've got some valid gripes in there, but they are pretty handwaveable ones too. Putting Yara on a bus for example might not be the most tactically sound move, but her presence in the Northern fight just means Theon never gets his chance to truly shine or redeem himself, and I'd much rather have the latter.

You're right. Large swathes of my complaints about ANY media are usually hand-waveable.

I'm GLAD Game of Thrones got made, it means other shows I want have a better chance of existing in the future. It's made some progress in normalizing non heterosexual characters in mass media. Some.

I guess if I can attempt a metaphor, a gluten free person can enjoy a hamburger as much as a non-gluten-free person. Neither experience is wrong, they're both personal and valid. Even if the cook runs out of gluten-free buns, that's not so bad! Heck, sometimes I'm jut not hungry enough to eat the bun anyhow.

But if the cook then runs out of hamburgers, too, now I have... what... tomato, lettuce and onions?

I feel like the show USED to run on a great combination of depth and spectacle, but all we're left with now is spectacle and I'm a bitter, unpleasant jerk who is spectacle-intolerant. :)

[Callos_DeTerran]

I feel like the show USED to run on a great combination of depth and spectacle, but all we're left with now is spectacle and I'm a bitter, unpleasant jerk who is spectacle-intolerant. :)

Well acknowledging the problem is the first step to fixing it! ;P

Nah, its fine. My personal opinion has always been that I'll take spectacle over depth every day of the week since spectacle, by its very nature, is more likely to be entertaining while the same is not true for depth. So if I have to pick between the two? Spectacle.

More pertinent to the topic at hand, I'm not sure what kind of depth or twists people are expecting for a final season...I mean obviously there is going to be some, but a final season tends to be about seeing the results of the character's actions, arcs, and development...you usually don't see much of that happening last minute...or shouldn't anyway because it will just makes things convoluted. They've got a short season (essentially) to deal with the Night King and his army, the fallout with Cersei and the Golden company, finally settling who is claiming the Iron Throne, and a satisfying epilogue after all that. Nevermind minor things like Cleganebowl, the Azhor Hai propechy, etc that also need closure.

Things like showing logistics and planning, that they partially showed the previous seasons? Not a priority when the viewer can assume that those things are happening because the characters are reasonably competent.

...that said, I'm prepared to either rage to the heavens or gloat like a maniac depending on how Dany's story plays out. Cause she's been a fun/interesting character but an immensely aggravating one to me and I want to see just how bulletproof she really is!

[Dr.Samurai]

Well, to clarify a little bit, the earlier seasons had those nitty details matter; Dany and her followers almost dying of dehydration, Stannis needing to get a loan from the Iron Bank, Drogo dying from infection...

The later seasons seem not to care as much about that stuff... though Sansa does mention having to feed Dothraki and dragons out of nowhere as if the show is keeping track of these things any longer.

I just feel that if they were taking the threat seriously, the conversations we'd be privy to would be much more focused on the upcoming fight, and much less focused on setting everyone up to be at odds. I'd like more scenes like the one between Sansa and Jon before the Battle of the Bastards (except I want Jon to be right this time around). Something I can sink my teeth into. Instead I feel like a lot of dialogue is just setting up someone else's reaction.

[Karmea]

So, it seems to be more of season 7 -grade drivel? Good to know, I'm just going to skip it then. Shame, I loved 1-5, but plot holes, idiot ball and drama for the sake of drama isn't for me.

[Mechalich]

I just feel that if they were taking the threat seriously, the conversations we'd be privy to would be much more focused on the upcoming fight, and much less focused on setting everyone up to be at odds. I'd like more scenes like the one between Sansa and Jon before the Battle of the Bastards (except I want Jon to be right this time around). Something I can sink my teeth into. Instead I feel like a lot of dialogue is just setting up someone else's reaction.

Well, I do think the assumption is that battle is still weeks away, at least. After all, they expected Ned Umber to be able to ride up to Last Hearth from Winterfell, evacuate the town and castle, and then come back still in time for battle. Making battle plans at the moment would be rather preliminary, given that they've clearly not fully assembled all forces at Winterfell yet - and there is an exchange to this effect in the episode - and that no one knows which why the Night King is going to go. I mean, it sure looks like he's going to take the straight-forward approach and march right up to Winterfell and offer a decisive battle even though this move does not favor the advantages of having an undead army, but hey, why not.

Truthfully, I somewhat grateful for a limited focus on the logistics because I have little confidence for any numbers or geography deployed to make any sense. Game of Thrones is built on a universe that already has gaping weaknesses in the numeracy department: G.R.R. Martin is bad at math, has openly admitted to being so, and there are huge numbers-based absurdities scattered throughout the show starting with the Wall being about ten times taller than it should be. The showrunners are not fantasy militarists and I have no confidence in them being able to handle the practicalities of fighting an undead army correctly. Already, for instance, the undead army is claimed to be moving slowly, even though an undead army is actually the fastest form of pre-industrial army you can have because it marches 24 hours a day without breaks. Even if the wights shamble along at half a standard walking pace (so 1.5 miles an hour instead of 3) they can still make 36 miles a day, every day.

As far as the overall war goes, the good guys have basically one chance for a conventional victory - bring the Night King to a decisive battle outside Winterfell and smash him there. The Night King, doubtless for reasons of his own, seems inclined to oblige them Sauron at the Black Gate style and I fully expect our heroes to get thoroughly pummeled and to subsequently latch on to an unconventional solution.

[deuterio12]

It was an act the show took great pains to depict as the unecessary act of evil it was. Tyrion (consistently a morally upstanding, altruistic, compassionate and Good person) is violently opposed to it, and shares his concerns with Varys that perhaps Dany is no better than her father, and all her talk of 'breaking the wheel' is just her own justification for seizing power.

Varys then tells him to keep her in more brutal tendencies in check. She's always needed that morally good advisor counterpoint to keep her away from her baser instincs (Selmy Barristan briefly was able to restrain her more violent tendencies, Tyrion struggles with it now).

The show has been careful to cloak her more atrocious acts (crucifiction of the slavers, entombing her former handmaiden alive, having a random slaver eaten to death by her dragons, burning the Witch that killed her alive etc) behind seemingly altruistic motives, when the only real consistent motive she has ever displayed is returning to Westeros and claiming the Iron Throne.

In the last season she had to be actively counselled not to lay waste to half the continent, or raze Kings Landing to the ground. None of it's stopped her from using a massive army of Barbarians (who she knows from first hand experience are pretty much down with mass rape, taking slaves and extreme violence and savagery) to lay waste to half of Westeros or incinerating thousands of men (including her prisoners)

They're clearly trying to highlight that her claimed altruism is largely a sham, or just mostly a justification she uses to cloak her true motive (claim the Iron Throne) behind a noble (if terribly unspecific) goal of 'breaking the wheel'. The show writers have been gradually exposing this sham as the seasons progress. She wants to rule mainly because that's what she wants. She believes its her birthright.

Shes clearly not a Good person despite her outwardly altruistic motives (and the fact she often does Good things). She's no Cersie either (she aint Evil, despite the fact she has on occasion been as evil as Cersie) though. It'll be interesting how they develop her this season. Does she go down the 'burn them all' path of her Father (and turn on Jon) while still claiming its 'to break the wheel' and altruistic reasons, or does she actually live up to her claims of altruism and stop doing terrible things?

But she already stopped doing terrible things, case in point:

King's Landing hasn't been burned down by dragons and pillaged by barbarians (yet). Dany could've already crushed Cersei and anybody else warm-blooded that opposed her and crowned herself the new queen of the seven kingdoms, she has the power to do so, but she's been willing to try diplomacy instead of brutal conquest.

The two military commanders she burned afer they refused to stand down had just butchered Dany's allies and probably raped the local civilians too (or at least their troops did). The father was pretty evil too considering he had once planned to kill his own firstborn son and exiled him to the Wall just because Sam liked books more than swords (didn't even give him a chance to go to the Citadel), and the second son had clearly been brainwashed in fanatically following the bloodthirsty father. The father was pretty much irredeamable and chances are that leaving only the son alive would just mean somebody with the motivation and means to backstab Dany later. It wasn't a good act, but killing an enemy that attacked first and it's covered in the blood of your allies and refuses to stand down and is fine following the most psychopath queen in existence that sends assassins after her own brothers isn't evil either.

This is, for all the "sadness" Sam shows, he himself didn't even trust his father and brother to take care of his new wife.

From the most recent season:

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When she was confronted with the consequences of her (evil) actions re Sam, she realises that what she did was wrong and clearly shows a level of remorse that an 'Evil' person likely wouldnt. It's not the first time she has come to this realization either (it echoed a similar realization re the Slavers mass Crucifixion).

The big kicker for me will be when she realises that her whole character arc for the entire story (she seeks the Iron Throne because its her birthright) is not actually correct, and that Jon is the rightful King and not her. Unlike Jon (as Sam rightly points out) she wont lay down and accept him as the rightful King (despite that exact reasoning as being behind her own claim to the throne).

If they stay true to her character arc, she's either going to have to turn on Jon, or actually accept the 'breaking the wheel' justifications she's been wrapping herself up in to convince herself of the righteousness of her often brutal actions. There is no way in hell she just lays down and accepts he's the real rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

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Well my bet is that Dany's simply not gonna survive this and Jon will be able to cleanly rise to the Iron Throne.

"Baby steps" are luxury she doesn't have - particularly given that she demands to not be treated like a child.

Being offered a chance to stand down is a luxury a lot of dead characters didn't have either. Considering the enviroments she grew in, Dany's still doing pretty well.

This part I'm actually less concerned about:

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She was following John's lead with the Northeners, likely cognizant of the fact that anything out of her mouth would make them distrust/resent her more. A Southern ruler speaking to them directly likely wouldn't have gone over well, and certainly if it provoked an acid remark from the likes of Lyanna, her own temper would be kindled in kind. Already she's making vaguely threatening remarks towards Sansa after all.

Fair analyzis.

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Just watching and keeping silent and let Jon talk to the people he grew up with may indeed just be wisest.

[Dr.Samurai]

Well, I do think the assumption is that battle is still weeks away, at least. After all, they expected Ned Umber to be able to ride up to Last Hearth from Winterfell, evacuate the town and castle, and then come back still in time for battle. Making battle plans at the moment would be rather preliminary, given that they've clearly not fully assembled all forces at Winterfell yet - and there is an exchange to this effect in the episode - and that no one knows which why the Night King is going to go. I mean, it sure looks like he's going to take the straight-forward approach and march right up to Winterfell and offer a decisive battle even though this move does not favor the advantages of having an undead army, but hey, why not.

Truthfully, I somewhat grateful for a limited focus on the logistics because I have little confidence for any numbers or geography deployed to make any sense. Game of Thrones is built on a universe that already has gaping weaknesses in the numeracy department: G.R.R. Martin is bad at math, has openly admitted to being so, and there are huge numbers-based absurdities scattered throughout the show starting with the Wall being about ten times taller than it should be. The showrunners are not fantasy militarists and I have no confidence in them being able to handle the practicalities of fighting an undead army correctly. Already, for instance, the undead army is claimed to be moving slowly, even though an undead army is actually the fastest form of pre-industrial army you can have because it marches 24 hours a day without breaks. Even if the wights shamble along at half a standard walking pace (so 1.5 miles an hour instead of 3) they can still make 36 miles a day, every day.

As far as the overall war goes, the good guys have basically one chance for a conventional victory - bring the Night King to a decisive battle outside Winterfell and smash him there. The Night King, doubtless for reasons of his own, seems inclined to oblige them Sauron at the Black Gate style and I fully expect our heroes to get thoroughly pummeled and to subsequently latch on to an unconventional solution.

I'm inclined to agree with your last paragraph (as well as the sentiment Deuterio posted about Dany not making it through this).

Re: logistics

I think I chose a poor word. I think what I don't really like is how open ended conversations/scenes end. My girlfriend put it well when she likened it to soap opera style... I'm not sure on the word --> editing, direction, cinematography?

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As an example... Sansa and Jon are grumbling about the Manderley's leaving (I think it was them). She calms down a bit and says she has faith in him. But then she asks a poignant question... did Jon bend the knee for pragmatic/logisitical reasons, or was it because of love.

That's a fair concern (for tv drama); Dany is beautiful, commands several armies, and has dragons and a right to the throne. That's all pretty compelling and alluring.

However, the events of last season give Jon an equally compelling answer --> Dany delayed her claim to the throne and entered a cease-fire with Cersei, Dany allowed him to mine the dragonglass, Dany allowed him to go north to capture a wight, Dany saved his life and lost one of her children doing it, Dany vowed to him on the boat that they would destroy the Night King. A lot happened that informed Jon's decision.

But instead of seeing this conversation play out, Jon has that look that every seemingly every conversation between any characters is engineered to arrive to; the one where they've been caught flat-footed by a question and are internally wondering if the person asking them the question is right. Then --> End Scene. We don't know if Jon convinced her, we don't know what Sansa thinks about it, we don't know anything. Well, we know that Sansa has her suspicions, but we don't know what Jon said. But Sansa and Jon are supposed to be united (hence garden scene with Arya). Jon tells Arya "Sansa thinks she knows everything" and Arya says "She's the smartest person I know" and Jon says "Now you're defending her?". The only reason we can have this conversation is because the other one didn't end. And now it looks like Jon didn't take Sana's question seriously, which then leads Arya to have to remind him that they are all on the same side and not to forget it. This leaves it up in the air like Jon doesn't know the stakes, or what his loyalties are, or is being foolish or something. Whereas Jon could say "I know what it looks like, I know what everyone thinks. But I've fought the Night King and his army. I've seen what Dany's dragons can do. We need her on our side." Arya just gets the last word and End Scene.

Sansa asks Tyrion if he really thinks Cersei is going to send her army. Instead of talking about her devotion to her children, how everything she did goes back to protecting them, how she has lost all three but now is pregnant with another and this is the reason she will keep her word, he just vaguely refers to her having reasons to help them. Then Sansa throws out the one-liner "I used to think you were the cleverest man in the world" and walks away. And Tyrion looks all worried and full of doubt. Then --> End Scene.

Something similar was with the dragon flying scene. This scene didn't really treat the situation with any sort of import or weight. There was no drama around Jon being able to mount and fly a dragon. There was nothing in the way the scene was shot to suggest this was something only he may be able to do apart from Dany. And there was no romance in it either. This wasn't a magic carpet ride where the only two people to ride dragons together in centuries are falling harder for each other. It was just a "whoa whoa woohoo!" dragon ride. Jon swoops over Winterfell on a dragon and no one really says anything about it. There aren't any meaningful glances to suggest that people are wondering at it like "can anyone ride a dragon?". Dany isn't intrigued or curious or anything just "well it's been a pleasure knowing you".

I guess I feel like there's real drama to be had in Winterfell, but we're getting this weird stuff instead. Like... I've already spoken about Gendry and Arya but, Tyrion and Sansa were both married against their will and falsely accused of murdering the king. No one knows what happened to either of them when they vanished from King's Landing. Now they see each other alive and well and in very different circumstances and... they can barely say ten words to each other.

It's like no one is curious about anyone else or the slightest bit interested in their stories. It's just a dialogue to set up the next worried expression.

I think that's why Jon hugging Sam with such excitement was so great. It was like the only two people in Winterfell that were still alive and full of emotion, and were reacting realistically to seeing each other "What have you been hiding from me?" lol. I loved that scene.

[Malifice]

But she already stopped doing terrible things, case in point:

King's Landing hasn't been burned down by dragons and pillaged by barbarians (yet). Dany could've already crushed Cersei and anybody else warm-blooded that opposed her and crowned herself the new queen of the seven kingdoms, she has the power to do so, but she's been willing to try diplomacy instead of brutal conquest.

Not of her doing. She's wanted to fly off and conquer the place since she got there. It's only been Tyrions counsel that she [quote] 'doesnt want to rule over the ashes' thats held her more violent tendencies in check.

He's actively had to dissuade her from doing just this on a number of occasions in season 7. Using this exact logic.

She eventually agrees with it (showing shes not Evil) but the fact she's needed (Neutral) Varys and (Good) Tyrion to repeatedy counsel her against it says something.

The show has been at pains to show her capable of 'being terrible' or doing very evil things, and of showing that but for the counsel of some Good advisers (Barrisan Selmy, Tyrion) she would already likely be little better than her Father or the First Targaryan conquest.

Eventually she cracks the ****s and uses her Dragons (the shows equivalent to WMD's) on the Lannister armies.

Tyrion watches on in dismay. Again; this was shown (his dissaproval) for a reason.

The two military commanders she burned afer they refused to stand down had just butchered Dany's allies and probably raped the local civilians too (or at least their troops did). '

No way. They were unarmed POW's and had surrendered. There crime wasnt 'failing to stand down'. Their 'crime' was failing to switch sides.

This scene was echoed and juxtaposed with Jon Snow sparing the children of two of his enemies after his victory (Houses Karstark and Umber) despite his counsel (Sansa) telling him to punish them and to not show them mercy. (a direct opposite to what went down with Dany). Dany didnt spare her enemies, even after they surrendered, and she was counseled to show mercy. She burnt them alive. Jons enemies never surrendered, but he forgave them, despite counsel that he punish them. He handed them crowns.

This juxtaposition dint happen by chance. Jon is honorable and Good and doesnt want the Crown. His only motivation is saving the people of Westeros. Dany is much more capable of terrible things (shes Neutral in a RPG sense) and her central (and only) motivation is claiming the Crown, despite her oft claimed altruism.

The show has been clever in trying (at least in early seasons) to mask her evil acts in purported altruism. But they've been even more clever to juxtapose her actions against Jons - both possible candidates for the Throne, and both with stated altruistic goals. However as far as I can see, Jons altruism is legit. He doesnt want the Crown; he just wants to save people. Dany's is contrived, even if she and everyone else around her seems to largely believe it. She wants the Crown' her 'breaking of the wheel' is just a trapping she places on ger desire for power, one that she ignores when it suits her.

The father was pretty evil too considering he had once planned to kill his own firstborn son and exiled him to the Wall just because Sam liked books more than swords (didn't even give him a chance to go to the Citadel), and the second son had clearly been brainwashed in fanatically following the bloodthirsty father.

While I agree, that's irrelevant. That doesnt condone her actions. Despite Tully's desicable nature, the scene where he and his Son were murdered by Dany had viewers in no doubt about the wrongness of what she was doing. They actually came out of that scene as noble and honorable men.

Tyrion - so often the Shows moral counterpoint was clearly of the same opinion (he expressed as much to Dany there, later on in Dragonstone and privately to Varys), and again the show has since taken great pains to ensure that Dany has had to confront the Evil nature of her actions.

Whether it's enough to make the penny drop for her, or she continues to lie to herself remains to be seen

Her arc will be interesting this season. Like I said the show have been careful to couch her more brutal and terrible acts in (seemingly) altruistic motives, however this has been getting less so as the show progresses. They've also been careful to juxtapose her actions (directly echoing them in many cases) with those of Jons.

They've done a really good job of it so far. I see many viewers of the show cheering for her on the premise that she's 'Good'. She's truly not (although she can be). She's been trying to seize the Throne because that's her birthright. It's her one defining and central motive thoughout nearly the whole series. Jon OTOH has never wanted leadership; he just genuinely wants to save lives. Dany doesnt even want to discuss a possible heir with Tyrion. She wants the Throne and you're either going to 'bend the knee' or burn.

Again, the show writers are keen on pointing this out for us when Sam points this out to him in no uncertain terms: 'You're the kind of King that would throw away your Crown for your people. Would she do the same?

I cant see a way back for Dany with just 5 episodes left. You never know though.

[Psyren]

+1 to everything Malifice is saying.

I do think ultimately she will do the right thing. But boy howdy do we have a rough road to get there.

(Although - if she does do a Heel turn, that would at least sidestep the knowing incest thing.)

[Dr.Samurai]

They may use this interaction with Sam to influence her towards being more good than ruthless.

[Mechalich]

No way. They were unarmed POW's and had surrendered. There crime wasnt 'failing to stand down'. Their 'crime' was failing to switch sides.

This scene was echoed and juxtaposed with Jon Snow sparing the children of two of his enemies after his victory (Houses Karstark and Umber) despite his counsel (Sansa) telling him to punish them and to not show them mercy. (a direct opposite to what went down with Dany). Dany didnt spare her enemies, even after they surrendered, and she was counseled to show mercy. She burnt them alive. Jons enemies never surrendered, but he forgave them, despite counsel that he punish them. He handed them crowns.

This juxtaposition dint happen by chance. Jon is honorable and Good and doesnt want the Crown. His only motivation is saving the people of Westeros. Dany is much more capable of terrible things (shes Neutral in a RPG sense) and her central (and only) motivation is claiming the Crown, despite her oft claimed altruism.

The show has been clever in trying (at least in early seasons) to mask her evil acts in purported altruism. But they've been even more clever to juxtapose her actions against Jons - both possible candidates for the Throne, and both with stated altruistic goals. However as far as I can see, Jons altruism is legit. He doesnt want the Crown; he just wants to save people. Dany's is contrived, even if she and everyone else around her seems to largely believe it. She wants the Crown' her 'breaking of the wheel' is just a trapping she places on ger desire for power, one that she ignores when it suits her.

This isn't about good versus evil, especially not in an RPG sense - the world of Game of Thrones doesn't care one whit for good vs. evil, it's central conflict is better described as Hot (Lord of Light, Dragons) vs. Cold (Night King, Undead). The differences are actually a matter of Dany's understanding of how wars are fought versus Jon's understanding of the same and the impacts that has across their respective cultural backdrops.

Dany has learned the ways of warfare in Essos, a context similar to Central Asia where everyone rules absolute tyrannies, might explicitly makes right, and not inflicting horrible tortures on your enemies is more likely to be problematic than otherwise. In the show, specifically, she finally won in Mereen not by making compromises and placating the defeated but by unleashing the dragons and enacting some choice burnings. The Essos environment is the kind of place that Timur would feel right at home in, it doesn't have a feudalistic concept of limited war.

Westeros, by contrast, has just such a concept of limited war, in fact it has an extremely highly developed one with, in addition to all the normal feudal traditions of land redistribution, title-stripping, inheritance alteration and the rest, also has the mechanism of exiling criminals to the Night's Watch. Case in point, the entire War of the Five Kings was, if not started outright, greatly exacerbated by Joffery's insane decision to kill Ned Stark and not let him take the black as had been promised. Jon, like Ned and Rob before him, believes extremely strongly in this system of feudal justice and that's why he spared the Karstark and Umber heirs even when Sansa - who's been schooled in the Littlefinger way of realpolitck - counseled him not to.

Importantly, that feudal compact has largely collapsed through much of Westeros, to the point the even Randyll Tarly broke the bonds that tied him to House Martell and chose to fight for the Lannisters instead (a somewhat dubious point in the first place given his supposed character traits), but it remains true in the North, and both Jon and Dany are having problems with it. Jon because he believes, quite correctly, that the old system is almost certainly unlikely to survive the giant battle with ice zombies to come and so debating who rules Winterfell when it's probably only got a ten percent of even existing next year is really dumb. Dany because she just believes her obvious might means the northerners shouldn't be so much as thinking they'll disobey her, while underestimating their nearly suicidal obstinacy. This is unfortunately compounded, in the show, by a failure to properly show the size disparity between the forces at play.

The show has done a massive disservice to all the viewers and most of the participants by, presumably in an effort to save money, never showing the Dothraki horde in its full majesty (horses are expensive). The North's collected army is, at this point, tiny, having been massacred at the Red Wedding and then mauled on both sides of the Battle of the Bastards. The Knights of the Vale probably outnumber the northern forces. Dany may well outnumber the armies of both kingdoms with just her Unsullied! Her Dothraki forces positively dwarf the troops of everyone else combined.

Rough possible order of Battle:
Remnant Northern Forces: 5,000
Knights of the Vale: 4,000-6,000
Remaining Unsullied: 8,000-10,000
Dothraki: 50,000-100,000

The Battle to come is actually all about the Dothraki vs. the Dead, but of course that won't be what we see, even though a highly mobile mounted force with polearms is one of the better sorts of armies you could deploy against a shambling undead horde in loose formation.

Minor aside: elephants would be even better, since the wights seem completely incapable of the kind of coordinated tactics necessary to defeat such animals and are extremely limited in the archery department (though the Night King is his own tactical ballista). They could have been a major post-Winterfell difference maker. Sadly, the demands of the budget mean we won't get to see that fight.

Considering that a combination of budget constraints, a lack of proper military fantasy masters on the writing staff (and G.R.R. is not one, for all his talents in other areas as a writer), and the lack of any compelling Dothraki characters to give them the spotlight, the fight we'll actually get is one that will inevitable almost totally disregard the actual strategic reality of the situation. This is, of course, the new normal. It happened all the time in Season 7, like when Highgarden, a fortified castle in good repair, fell to an army devoid of siege weapons in an afternoon.

[Liquor Box]

This isn't about good versus evil, especially not in an RPG sense - the world of Game of Thrones doesn't care one whit for good vs. evil.

I agree. At least I hope this is true. This show built its foundation off differentiating itself from the normal good vs evil fantasy by instead treating those distinctions as murky shades of grey. Lots of character in the Dany/Snow camp are not morally good people, but that's ok (in fact it's refreshing), because the show has never aspired (I hope) to the childish ideal of good vs evil. Instead it seeks to replicate real life where most people cannot be simply defined as either good or evil (or neutral) and the side they stand on a battlefield does not usually correlate with their moral character. All up, I think this makes it more realistic more grown up and more enjoyable.

The two military commanders she burned afer they refused to stand down had just butchered Dany's allies and probably raped the local civilians too (or at least their troops did). The father was pretty evil too considering he had once planned to kill his own firstborn son and exiled him to the Wall just because Sam liked books more than swords (didn't even give him a chance to go to the Citadel), and the second son had clearly been brainwashed in fanatically following the bloodthirsty father. The father was pretty much irredeamable and chances are that leaving only the son alive would just mean somebody with the motivation and means to backstab Dany later. It wasn't a good act, but killing an enemy that attacked first and it's covered in the blood of your allies and refuses to stand down and is fine following the most psychopath queen in existence that sends assassins after her own brothers isn't evil either.

I think this is a pretty thin attempt at a justification

In terms of the bolded part, I agree with Malifice's point that the two commanders had stood down. They had surrendered, they just refused to demonstrate they'd fight for Dani (so coming off as loyal and honourable). They were effectively prisoners, and I think most would expect most commanders to treat prisoners better than, not just killing them, but killing them in a particularly brutal and painful way. In addition, of course they had just 'butchered' (I note that word applied far better to Dani's actions thant Tarly's) some of her allies - they were combatants for an opposing force.

As for the non bolded part, at least part is speculative and certainly none was known to Dani. After all, Dani was prepared to let them live if they agreed to fight for her, so she was not at all concerned with their morality. Dani was just faced with two enemy combatants who she had taken prisoner, and chose to burn them to death.

[Malifice]

This isn't about good versus evil, especially not in an RPG sense - the world of Game of Thrones doesn't care one whit for good vs. evil, it's central conflict is better described as Hot (Lord of Light, Dragons) vs. Cold (Night King, Undead). The differences are actually a matter of Dany's understanding of how wars are fought versus Jon's understanding of the same and the impacts that has across their respective cultural backdrops.

The differences between Jon and Dany are (pardon the pun) stark.

Jon is the rightful king of the seven Kingdoms, that genuinely doesnt want a Crown, and genuinely just wants to save people. He genuinely acts altruisticly, self sacrificing, compassionately and mercifully for the betterment of those under his care.

Dany is the exact opposite. Her central motivation is obtaining the Crown. She's attached trappings of 'breaking the wheel' or other ostensibly altruistic motivations to her central desire, which is 'Rule Westeros'.

Dany has learned the ways of warfare in Essos, a context similar to Central Asia where everyone rules absolute tyrannies, might explicitly makes right, and not inflicting horrible tortures on your enemies is more likely to be problematic than otherwise.

'Might makes right' and 'inflicting horrible tortures on your enemies' are things that are evil and wrong.

If Dany was in a RPG and learnt might makes right and to inflict horrible tortures on people due to her time living with Orcs, we'd call her alignment 'Evil'.

I dont think she is 'Evilly aligned'. I think she's Neutral (she switches between terrible acts and urges, and acts of genuine altruism and compassion). She's largely after the Throne for her own reasons however.

Her arc is going to be intresting this season.

[Saintheart]

This isn't about good versus evil, especially not in an RPG sense - the world of Game of Thrones doesn't care one whit for good vs. evil, it's central conflict is better described as Hot (Lord of Light, Dragons) vs. Cold (Night King, Undead). The differences are actually a matter of Dany's understanding of how wars are fought versus Jon's understanding of the same and the impacts that has across their respective cultural backdrops.

Dany has learned the ways of warfare in Essos, a context similar to Central Asia where everyone rules absolute tyrannies, might explicitly makes right, and not inflicting horrible tortures on your enemies is more likely to be problematic than otherwise. In the show, specifically, she finally won in Mereen not by making compromises and placating the defeated but by unleashing the dragons and enacting some choice burnings. The Essos environment is the kind of place that Timur would feel right at home in, it doesn't have a feudalistic concept of limited war.

Westeros, by contrast, has just such a concept of limited war, in fact it has an extremely highly developed one with, in addition to all the normal feudal traditions of land redistribution, title-stripping, inheritance alteration and the rest, also has the mechanism of exiling criminals to the Night's Watch. Case in point, the entire War of the Five Kings was, if not started outright, greatly exacerbated by Joffery's insane decision to kill Ned Stark and not let him take the black as had been promised. Jon, like Ned and Rob before him, believes extremely strongly in this system of feudal justice and that's why he spared the Karstark and Umber heirs even when Sansa - who's been schooled in the Littlefinger way of realpolitck - counseled him not to.

Importantly, that feudal compact has largely collapsed through much of Westeros, to the point the even Randyll Tarly broke the bonds that tied him to House Martell and chose to fight for the Lannisters instead (a somewhat dubious point in the first place given his supposed character traits), but it remains true in the North, and both Jon and Dany are having problems with it. Jon because he believes, quite correctly, that the old system is almost certainly unlikely to survive the giant battle with ice zombies to come and so debating who rules Winterfell when it's probably only got a ten percent of even existing next year is really dumb. Dany because she just believes her obvious might means the northerners shouldn't be so much as thinking they'll disobey her, while underestimating their nearly suicidal obstinacy. This is unfortunately compounded, in the show, by a failure to properly show the size disparity between the forces at play.

The show has also made it near-explicit that Daenerys isn't fit for rule simply because it's not in her character to do so, even allowing for her "learning" better in Meereen. One scene keeps coming back to me again and again out of the end of the sixth season, where they're still talking about Daenerys taking the Dothraki across the sea. Daario - who's basically the Obi Wan at that point - points out that she isn't a queen; she's a conqueror, the implication being that conquerors shouldn't go trying to rule kingdoms. Daenerys then tries to spite him by rallying the Dothraki to cross the Narrow Sea, but in doing so she's screaming at them about tearing down castles and whatnot, i.e.e. she isn't actually disproving Daario's observations about her.

The show has done a massive disservice to all the viewers and most of the participants by, presumably in an effort to save money, never showing the Dothraki horde in its full majesty (horses are expensive). The North's collected army is, at this point, tiny, having been massacred at the Red Wedding and then mauled on both sides of the Battle of the Bastards. The Knights of the Vale probably outnumber the northern forces. Dany may well outnumber the armies of both kingdoms with just her Unsullied! Her Dothraki forces positively dwarf the troops of everyone else combined.

Rough possible order of Battle:
Remnant Northern Forces: 5,000
Knights of the Vale: 4,000-6,000
Remaining Unsullied: 8,000-10,000
Dothraki: 50,000-100,000

The Battle to come is actually all about the Dothraki vs. the Dead, but of course that won't be what we see, even though a highly mobile mounted force with polearms is one of the better sorts of armies you could deploy against a shambling undead horde in loose formation.

Minor aside: elephants would be even better, since the wights seem completely incapable of the kind of coordinated tactics necessary to defeat such animals and are extremely limited in the archery department (though the Night King is his own tactical ballista). They could have been a major post-Winterfell difference maker. Sadly, the demands of the budget mean we won't get to see that fight.

Considering that a combination of budget constraints, a lack of proper military fantasy masters on the writing staff (and G.R.R. is not one, for all his talents in other areas as a writer), and the lack of any compelling Dothraki characters to give them the spotlight, the fight we'll actually get is one that will inevitable almost totally disregard the actual strategic reality of the situation. This is, of course, the new normal. It happened all the time in Season 7, like when Highgarden, a fortified castle in good repair, fell to an army devoid of siege weapons in an afternoon.

Honest question because I can't remember: has there ever been a scene in the show which shows us any morale effect the White Walkers and/or undead have on horses? I know Benjen Two-Episodes had a horse, but from memory it was undead the same as he was.

If mounts react according to the standard trope of 'Wild Animal Senses Evil And Is Utterly Freaked Out By It', then 100,000 Dothraki lancers aren't going to be quite as effective as they might otherwise be. Same for elephants if they react the same way.

[Otomodachi]

On another note, cuz everything I have to say about Jon and Dany has been covered-

Is anyone else expecting/anticipating/dreading Arya's comeuppance via the House of Black and White? She joined up with, deceived, robbed and betrayed a weird, identity absorbing death cult worshipping the archetypal god of death, not *a* god of death but *the* god of death. That seems like something that should have consequences, as much as I really admire Arya.

[Liquor Box]

The differences between Jon and Dany are (pardon the pun) stark.

Jon is the rightful king of the seven Kingdoms, that genuinely doesnt want a Crown, and genuinely just wants to save people. He genuinely acts altruisticly, self sacrificing, compassionately and mercifully for the betterment of those under his care.

Dany is the exact opposite. Her central motivation is obtaining the Crown. She's attached trappings of 'breaking the wheel' or other ostensibly altruistic motivations to her central desire, which is 'Rule Westeros'.

I think your analysis, at least of Dani, is overly simplistic. If her central motivation was indeed to obtain the Crown, she would not have lingered so long in Mereen, against counsel. I think you are handwaving actions that the show sells as altruistic as being mere justifications on her part simply because it fits your theory. I think the better interpretation of Dani (as with almost every other character on the show) is that she is not one dimensional, does not fit neatly into one box (good, neutral or evil) and has both qualities that are admirable (eg empathy) and questionable (eg brutality).

Accordingly, if we were to choose between an ending to GoT (1) where Dani renounces her past brutalities and asks Jon to take the Throne before reluctantly taking it herself after Jon's death at the hand of a third part; and (2) where Dani refuses to believe Jon's claim to the Throne is better than her own because she doesn't believe in Bran's magic, and so keeps the Throne. My own opinion is that ending 2 would be just as satisfactory as ending 1, because this is not a show about good triumphing over evil, nor is it about people realising the evil within themselves and renouncing it. It is a show about a group of diverse people each of whom is motivated and flawed (morally or otherwise) in different ways who are interacting in a fantasy environment against the backdrop of an army of the undead. For me at least, it is more satisfying than a 'good triumphs over evil' type show because it is more realistic as to how people are motivated and act.