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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    In terms of the bolded part, I agree with Malifice's point that the two commanders had stood down. They had surrendered, they just refused to demonstrate they'd fight for Dani (so coming off as loyal and honourable). They were effectively prisoners, and I think most would expect most commanders to treat prisoners better than, not just killing them, but killing them in a particularly brutal and painful way. In addition, of course they had just 'butchered' (I note that word applied far better to Dani's actions thant Tarly's) some of her allies - they were combatants for an opposing force.

    As for the non bolded part, at least part is speculative and certainly none was known to Dani. After all, Dani was prepared to let them live if they agreed to fight for her, so she was not at all concerned with their morality. Dani was just faced with two enemy combatants who she had taken prisoner, and chose to burn them to death.
    Executing captured enemies is perfectly legal in the military context everyone in the show is operating within. Critically, in the most recent episode Sam does not suggest that what Dany did was wrong, nor does Jorah suggest she should apologize for having done so. Having the Tarly's killed was something that was perfectly within her rights and Randyll Tarly knew this perfectly well when he refused her demands. Now, execution by means of dragonfire was maybe a bit much, traditionally nobles in this sort of faux-English feudal society get to demand the headsman, but given the realities of who ruled Westeros for centuries, it's probably on the books as an acceptable method.

    Those raising objections to Dany burning the Tarlys in-universe haven't made any point about it being illegal or immoral they've made the point that, like Joeffery executing Ned Stark, it was extremely short-sighted. Killing them drastically reduced her operational space when dealing with future surrendering enemies or with armed forces not specifically attached to any given side (and huge portions of the seven kingdoms are completely absent centralized control at present) by walling her outside of the traditional feudal bargaining structure these people use. Dany let her emotions get the better of her, which is one of her persistent character failings when faced with defiance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice
    Jon is the rightful king of the seven Kingdoms, that genuinely doesnt want a Crown, and genuinely just wants to save people. He genuinely acts altruisticly, self sacrificing, compassionately and mercifully for the betterment of those under his care.
    How's that working out for Jon? One of the central plotlines of Game of Thrones is that adherence to ideals, honor, and a personal sense of justice tends to blow up in your face. Jon continues to try and hold the people below him to the level of virtue that he himself possesses, even when there is abundant evidence that they are nowhere near that strong. This mistake got him killed once and yet he's persisting in making it all over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart
    The show has also made it near-explicit that Daenerys isn't fit for rule simply because it's not in her character to do so, even allowing for her "learning" better in Meereen. One scene keeps coming back to me again and again out of the end of the sixth season, where they're still talking about Daenerys taking the Dothraki across the sea. Daario - who's basically the Obi Wan at that point - points out that she isn't a queen; she's a conqueror, the implication being that conquerors shouldn't go trying to rule kingdoms. Daenerys then tries to spite him by rallying the Dothraki to cross the Narrow Sea, but in doing so she's screaming at them about tearing down castles and whatnot, i.e.e. she isn't actually disproving Daario's observations about her.
    With regard to the Dothraki, she's playing to the crowd, in a way that she kind of must. The Dothraki are not-Mongols, their a nomadic pastoralist people. They don't have kingdoms, or even permanent settlements. Taking and controlling land is meaningless to them. Going to war is purely a matter of plunder and pillage. If anything, Dany's ability to gather up a nomadic horde and send it to fight the undead in the cause of preserving a society not their own is an altruistic act of almost incalculable magnitude.

    Honest question because I can't remember: has there ever been a scene in the show which shows us any morale effect the White Walkers and/or undead have on horses? I know Benjen Two-Episodes had a horse, but from memory it was undead the same as he was.

    If mounts react according to the standard trope of 'Wild Animal Senses Evil And Is Utterly Freaked Out By It', then 100,000 Dothraki lancers aren't going to be quite as effective as they might otherwise be. Same for elephants if they react the same way.
    That's a good question. I seem to recall the Night's Watch had at least some horses with them when they went north to the Fist of the First Men (I seem to recall Commander Mormont riding one), but since that engagement happened almost entirely off-screen I don't believe we know if any of them fought mounted.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Executing captured enemies is perfectly legal in the military context everyone in the show is operating within.
    No, it's not.

    It's legal as in 'Dany is the Queen and thus, it's legal if she says it is' of course. She can decree anything she does to be legal.

    However within the context of the laws and customs of the time and place the Show is set, executing the heads of houses (who are your prisoners) simply because they wont switch sides and join you, is unlawful.

    They're to be held as prisoners till the end of the war. Robert Baratheon didnt go around murdering Prisoners of War. He kept Barristan Selmy alive. He pardoned the Tullys and others who fought against him in his Rebellion. Rob Stark didnt go around executing Lannister POW's (even Jamie himself). Jon Snow pardoned those that fought against him (as did Robert).

    The head of a House (or even an important scion of a house) is far more valuable to you as a prisoner than as a corpse.

    Traditionally in our own history, such high profile prisoners were held and then released as ransoms and similar. They werent just executed out of hand. Lords and Knights (as opposed to rank and file Soldiery) were kept as prisoners and ransomed off.

    The only people in the show we have seen advocating for (and engaging in) the executions of POW's have been 'Evil' types (the Boltons, Sandor Clegane on behalf of the Lannisters, Joffery etc)

    It was evil and wrong. The show went to great pains to depict it as evil and wrong at the time (and later via Tyrion and Varys discussion of it, and again when Tyrion points it out to Dany about her 'ending those possibilities' and again this was reinforced firmy in the most recent episode.

    You might want to cheer for Dany (and the Show has been very clever in making us do just that, despite her growing list of atrcities, and the growing evidence that while she's better than her Father, she's no angel, and is seriously prone to acts of vengeance, atrocities, capriciousness, cruelty and 'burning them all' just as he was) but if you're suggesting that her murder of the Tarly's was anything other than the cold blooded and cruel murder of two honorable (if otherwise despicaple in Randalls case) men and was wrong with a capital 'W' we're watching a different show.


    How's that working out for Jon? One of the central plotlines of Game of Thrones is that adherence to ideals, honor, and a personal sense of justice tends to blow up in your face. Jon continues to try and hold the people below him to the level of virtue that he himself possesses, even when there is abundant evidence that they are nowhere near that strong. This mistake got him killed once and yet he's persisting in making it all over again.
    Unlike Dany, Jon doesnt want a Crown. He does what he does for the betterment of the people around him. He hates the thing he is good at (killing and rulership).

    Dany wants the Crown. She's wrapped it up in a broader quest to 'break the wheel' but that's her justification for her desire; it's secondary to what she really wants, which is the Iron Throne.

    Also unlike Jon, she genuinely enjoys killing. Every time she's burnt people to death, ordered them cricified or worse, she's done it with a smile and a sense of righteousness. Shes capricious, like the Dragons she 'mothers'.

    With regard to the Dothraki, she's playing to the crowd, in a way that she kind of must. The Dothraki are not-Mongols, their a nomadic pastoralist people. They don't have kingdoms, or even permanent settlements. Taking and controlling land is meaningless to them. Going to war is purely a matter of plunder and pillage.
    Does unleasing an horde of 'plundering, pilliaging rapist barbarians' on Westerosi seem altruistic to you?

    Remember, Dany has seen first hand what happens when those Dothraki guys raid a villiage. Every single Khal she has met as been totally down with mass rape, plunder, murder, slavery and torture (every one of them has threatened her with rape, aside from her husband, who actually raped her). She knows full well what she has brought to Westeross (along with the living WMD's of Dragons, which she's also used). The Dothraki have been presented as at best menacing killers, and at worst, mass rapist, slave taking, pillaging, genocidal savages.

    The show has somehow managed to convince a lot of people she's the 'goody' when the evidence has been quite the opposiste. Now she's basically threatening to burn people for betraying her, is burning them for 'not bending the knee' despite fighting honorably, and is starting to see enemies all around her (I found her comments re Sansa particularly worrying).

    Remind you of anyone?

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    However within the context of the laws and customs of the time and place the Show is set, executing the heads of houses (who are your prisoners) simply because they wont switch sides and join you, is unlawful.
    You are confusing the difference between laws and norms. Unless terms were set prior to the surrender, the victor can do whatever they want to the defeated in these circumstances. Normally, heads of houses are imprisoned, and eventually ransomed for concessions, but they don't have to be. You absolutely can put all the defeated to the sword if you want, it's just jerkish and tends to have downstream consequences.

    You might want to cheer for Dany (and the Show has been very clever in making us do just that, despite her growing list of atrcities, and the growing evidence that while she's better than her Father, she's no angel, and is seriously prone to acts of vengeance, atrocities, capriciousness, cruelty and 'burning them all' just as he was) but if you're suggesting that her murder of the Tarly's was anything other than the cold blooded and cruel murder of two honorable (if otherwise despicaple in Randalls case) men and was wrong with a capital 'W' we're watching a different show.
    It was an execution, not a murder. That is a thing that matters - the show has made this point extensively starting with the very first episode - and you are quite explicitly incorrect on the particulars. If you want to claim it was evil or wrong, that's fine, you can impose whatever morality you want on the events, but it was something that was within Dany's prerogative to do. She should not have done it, because it was stupid and counterproductive, but it was her right. Is the system that gave her that right horrible? Sure, but it's the system that's in place.

    Unlike Dany, Jon doesnt want a Crown. He does what he does for the betterment of the people around him. He hates the thing he is good at (killing and rulership).
    Jon is a terrible ruler, and honestly not a particularly good tactician. He's personally inspiring to other men on the battlefield and bonds well with other warriors, but he sucks at politics and putting him on the Iron Throne would be a recipe for widespread rebellion that he would vacillate over putting down. If Jon becomes king, the Seven Kingdoms collapses in less than a decade.

    Dany wants the Crown. She's wrapped it up in a broader quest to 'break the wheel' but that's her justification for her desire; it's secondary to what she really wants, which is the Iron Throne.
    Sure she wants the crown, she was raised an indoctrinated to want it. However, she stayed in Mereen for a long time trying to stabilize that conquest rather than move to Westeros (in the books she's still there because Martin hasn't yet come up with a convincing way for to walk out on those people) and only made her play for the crown after all the reasonable claimants had killed each other off, half the continent was in open rebellion, and the shockingly illegitimate Cersei took hold of it.

    More importantly, Dany was, after taking some time to absorb the evidence, able to suspend her quest for the throne, offer a peace overture to her principle opponent and march her forces north to face the existential threat that, by the way, she is pretty much the only person in the whole blasted cast not named 'Stark' who hasn't made the problem worse (well aside from the whole dragon-rescue-to-undead-dragon bit, but that was just bad writing all around).

    Does unleasing an horde of 'plundering, pilliaging rapist barbarians' on Westerosi seem altruistic to you?
    Except she hasn't unleashed them. She's forced them to exercise immense restraint, mostly through the expedient of stuffing them on an island where there's nothing to pillage and then leading them against the undead army. She's used the Dothraki in battle exactly once, against an entirely military opponent. Repurposing a violent army from pillaging in their homeland to fighting against an existential threat in a foreign land seems pretty darned altruistic to me. Honestly, a tens of thousands of Dothraki (and Unsullied, but they're human robots and don't really have 'choices' anymore) are going to die fighting the undead and every one of them is making a heroic sacrifice for a people not their own. Dany, through pure personal, magnetism, made that happen.

    The show has somehow managed to convince a lot of people she's the 'goody' when the evidence has been quite the opposiste. Now she's basically threatening to burn people for betraying her, is burning them for 'not bending the knee' despite fighting honorably, and is starting to see enemies all around her (I found her comments re Sansa particularly worrying).
    The behavior of the various northerners, including Sansa and Arya, in the most recent episode is, while wholly understandable, ultimately kind of embarrassing. These are people bickering about who gets to sit in which chair while an existential threat is bearing down on them that will specifically kill them first. Dany thought Jon would take care of this problem, which considering he more or less promised her he would, is a pretty reasonable expectation. When this turns out not to be true, she's annoyed, but she hasn't yet done anything about it or even said anything much stronger than 'hey Jon, get your sister, who's supposed to be your subordinate, to shut up and supply my army like you said she would.'


    Ultimately, Dany is as 'good' as things are going to get in the blood-soaked and grimdark world that is Game of Thrones. A world which, after all, has as its 'good' deity a merciless fire god that enjoys having human beings burned alive in his name. She's a would-be ruler who at least desires the peace and prosperity of the common people and has been willing to make personal sacrifices - including getting married to a man she neither liked nor respected - to insure it. She listens to the advice of her advisors and third-parties like Jon Snow to the point of occasionally acknowledging her mistakes in the face of new evidence. Yes, she is vengeful - her principle atrocities have all been connected to personal injury in some way (in the case of the Tarlys it was Bron shooting Drogon), but no one's without flaws. Of all the people who've seriously contended to rule Westeros throughout the course of the show, she'd be a better ruler than any of them.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    No, it's not.

    It's legal as in 'Dany is the Queen and thus, it's legal if she says it is' of course. She can decree anything she does to be legal.

    However within the context of the laws and customs of the time and place the Show is set, executing the heads of houses (who are your prisoners) simply because they wont switch sides and join you, is unlawful.

    They're to be held as prisoners till the end of the war. Robert Baratheon didnt go around murdering Prisoners of War. He kept Barristan Selmy alive. He pardoned the Tullys and others who fought against him in his Rebellion. Rob Stark didnt go around executing Lannister POW's (even Jamie himself). Jon Snow pardoned those that fought against him (as did Robert).

    The head of a House (or even an important scion of a house) is far more valuable to you as a prisoner than as a corpse.

    Traditionally in our own history, such high profile prisoners were held and then released as ransoms and similar. They werent just executed out of hand. Lords and Knights (as opposed to rank and file Soldiery) were kept as prisoners and ransomed off.

    The only people in the show we have seen advocating for (and engaging in) the executions of POW's have been 'Evil' types (the Boltons, Sandor Clegane on behalf of the Lannisters, Joffery etc)

    It was evil and wrong. The show went to great pains to depict it as evil and wrong at the time (and later via Tyrion and Varys discussion of it, and again when Tyrion points it out to Dany about her 'ending those possibilities' and again this was reinforced firmy in the most recent episode.

    You might want to cheer for Dany (and the Show has been very clever in making us do just that, despite her growing list of atrcities, and the growing evidence that while she's better than her Father, she's no angel, and is seriously prone to acts of vengeance, atrocities, capriciousness, cruelty and 'burning them all' just as he was) but if you're suggesting that her murder of the Tarly's was anything other than the cold blooded and cruel murder of two honorable (if otherwise despicaple in Randalls case) men and was wrong with a capital 'W' we're watching a different show.
    Metagaming it, I'd call Danaerys's executing the Tarlys a case of plot contrivance by putting three stubborn idiots against one another, and giving one of the stubborn idiots a fire-breathing dragon. That's how it played out on my impression.

    Danerys offers 'Bend the knee or die'. Tyrion suggests prison might be a better way to go about convincing Randyll Tarly when he says no. Danerys says if the option of chains is offered then many will take it, and then that facepalming statement that she didn't come to put men in chains, she came to break them. (The chains).

    Tyrion then suggests Randyll Tarly at least should be sent to the Wall rather than killing him. Randyll says he won't accept that option because Daenerys is not his queen. And they go for a really cringey racist angle with Randyll saying Daenerys is a foreigner. Daenerys, who previously has been rather proud of the fact she was born on Dragonstone and tells all and sundry including Jon Snow that her family's been protecting Westeros for 300 years and whatnot, is not the least bit outraged by this implicit insult and doesn't say the otherwise obvious comeback of "I was born on Dragonstone, and you fought for my brother Rhaegar and my father when the Usurper rebelled. I am the last Targaryen. I call on you to renew your vow of loyalty or be seen as faithless and a turncloak in the sight of gods and men."

    Dickon Tarly then says if you kill my father you'll have to kill me as well. Randyll Tarly tells him to sit his dumb rear down. Tyrion tells Dickon he's the future of his house and not to throw himself after his father. Dickon refuses that as well and goes to die. Randyll doesn't further protest. Daenerys also doesn't say a damn thing.

    As said: three stubborn morons required to behave like three stubborn morons in order to tidy up the plot thread of Randyll Tarly being likely to behead his son for stealing his Valyrian sword. Anyway.


    I wouldn't necessarily hold up Robert Baratheon as some great and principled warrior, either. He might not have personally murdered prisoners of war, but he pretty clearly didn't give a toss about the fact his bannermen murdered royal children in their beds on his behalf. That indeed was a large part of what drove Ned Stark to get the hell out of the south and go back north as quick as he could. Ned Stark's guilt over what happened in the rebellion was his defining trait as a character in the series: that's what caused him to keep the secret of Jon Snow's parenthood, and what caused him to give Cersei a heads-up that he knew her children were not Robert's.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily hold up Robert Baratheon as some great and principled warrior, either. He might not have personally murdered prisoners of war, but he pretty clearly didn't give a toss about the fact his bannermen murdered royal children in their beds on his behalf.
    Don't forget that Robert Baratheon also approved sending assassins after Dany just because she was being sold as a concubine getting married.

    Really Dany may not be exactly "good" by our modern standards, but by Westeros standards she's basically as good as it gets (Jon is a cheater that doesn't die when he's killed so he can afford to be too trustworthy and end up stabbed, Dany has no such luxury).

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    That indeed was a large part of what drove Ned Stark to get the hell out of the south and go back north as quick as he could. Ned Stark's guilt over what happened in the rebellion was his defining trait as a character in the series: that's what caused him to keep the secret of Jon Snow's parenthood, and what caused him to give Cersei a heads-up that he knew her children were not Robert's.
    And thanks to that Ned Stark lost his head along plunging the kingdom in a 5-way civil war that saw countless dead along half his family and gave an opening for the Night King to bring down the Wall leading to a scenario where all warm life in Westeros may yet be wiped out.

    Sometimes you just need to make an example of one or two stubborn idiots that refuses to bend the knee or things just spiral out of control.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-04-16 at 03:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Tyrion then suggests Randyll Tarly at least should be sent to the Wall rather than killing him. Randyll says he won't accept that option because Daenerys is not his queen.
    Thinking on it now, this particular point strongly suggests plot management by the showrunners, because Randyll Tarly, if he takes the black, can safely serve on the side of Dany's alliance with minimal difficulties as a seasoned commander. Right now, there's three parts to the Living forces: Westerosi forces composed of the North and the Vale; Unsullied; and Dothraki. The Unsullied have a commander in Grey Worm and he's proven his abilities. The Dothraki have their own leaders and we've at least seen them and it's quite clear that Dothraki will be leading Dothraki come what may. That leaves the Westerosi contingent, which could hypothetically grow to later on include levies from other kingdoms like the Riverlands or even Dorne. It doesn't have a leader right now. Jon is an inspirational figure, and a very skilled warrior, but he's a middling commander at best. The knights could really use an overall commander (or at least someone who knows battle better than Davos to stand next to Jon and tell him what to plan) and a sworn-to-the-Night's Watch Randyll Tarly absolutely could have filled that roll. However, since he's dead, the best Westerosi commander still standing is...Jamie Lannister.

    Killing Randyll opens up new dramatic options by clearing the lane for Jamie (and potentially, for Sir Jorah as well) to move into the leadership. Basically, by offing him, the show opens up a 'veteran soldier' slot for someone else that the viewers actually care about to move into.
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Killing Randyll opens up new dramatic options by clearing the lane for Jamie (and potentially, for Sir Jorah as well) to move into the leadership. Basically, by offing him, the show opens up a 'veteran soldier' slot for someone else that the viewers actually care about to move into.
    What did Randyll do of note anyway military-wise? Supporting mad bloodthirsty Cersei to pillage High Garden (and getting roflstomped by barbarians)? Support the Targaryen against the rebel scum (and failing)? Plot to get his firstborn son killed (and failing)? Even Jon has better military credentials (stopping the full might of the wyldling army with just an handful of troops) before you start bringing up the top veterans like Jamie and Sir Jorah.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-04-16 at 04:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    What did Randyll do of note anyway military-wise? Supporting mad bloodthirsty Cersei to pillage High Garden (and getting roflstomped by barbarians)? Support the Targaryen against the rebel scum (and failing)? Plot to get his firstborn son killed (and failing)? Even Jon has better military credentials (stopping the full might of the wyldling army with just an handful of troops) before you start bringing up the top veterans like Jamie and Sir Jorah.
    Randyll's main claim to being a warrior was offscreen: Stannis considered him a fine soldier because he inflicted the only defeat Robert Baratheon ever suffered, at the Battle of Ashford. That's referred to in Season 5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    The head of a House (or even an important scion of a house) is far more valuable to you as a prisoner than as a corpse.

    Traditionally in our own history, such high profile prisoners were held and then released as ransoms and similar. They werent just executed out of hand. Lords and Knights (as opposed to rank and file Soldiery) were kept as prisoners and ransomed off.

    The only people in the show we have seen advocating for (and engaging in) the executions of POW's have been 'Evil' types (the Boltons, Sandor Clegane on behalf of the Lannisters, Joffery etc)
    I really like your analysis, but in this you are prone to linear thinking.
    What happened to house Tyrell? They were butchered to extinction, compliments of House Tarly & co. who betrayed their liege oaths.

    Offering them the opportunity to bend the knee was far more merciful than anything they had a right to expect, and was very much in tune with "bad things happening to people who break the feudal rules" theme. Of course the show didn't do a vey good job of pointing this out, as it was busy analogizing Dany with her Dragons in that particular scene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Randyll's main claim to being a warrior was offscreen: Stannis considered him a fine soldier because he inflicted the only defeat Robert Baratheon ever suffered, at the Battle of Ashford. That's referred to in Season 5.
    Ah, yes, Stannis "I have overwhemling numerical advantage and still miserably fail".
    Stannis "Somehow I was in the winning team of this war and only got a deadend job in some backwater island."
    Stannis "I lost all my horses and what's left of my army is starving and freezing to death, let's go try to besiege the most fortified position in the north".
    Stannis "that pyromaniac sorceress is totally trustworthy and won't just abandon me when things go south".

    Clearly one of the greatest military masterminds of his time, a master of evaluating other people's personalities, his opinion is indeed trustworthy and could never possibly be wrong, that's why he's such in a good standing this season. Wait a minute...

    For all of Stannis reliability, Randyl probably just got lucky that Robert was really drunk that day.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-04-16 at 04:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    re: Jon and Dany as rulers

    I think we're making far too much of Jon's mercy and altruism in the context of being a ruler. I think if you were to swap Jon and Dany, I couldn't confidently say that Jon would have found himself sailing to Westeros with multiple armies following him.

    As Lord Commander, Jon got himself killed, if not for the intervention of the Red Priestess.

    Then Jon was called upon to rally the North and retake Winterfell, and he again got himself killed if not for the intervention of Sansa and the Knights of the Vale.

    Then as King of the North he led a mission beyond the Wall to capture a wight, and once again got himself killed if not for the intervention of Dany this time.

    And as King of the North when he is called upon to be political and make strategic moves, his honor causes him to spoil the whole thing and make everyone's efforts be in vain (if not for the intervention of Tyrion).

    There is something to be said about someone who consistently tells you he doesn't want to lead or rule. Jon inspires people that already think like he does, and that value the same things he does.

    Dany, on the other hand, opposite to nearly getting herself killed all the time, has extricated herself out of being little more than Drogo's wife, she escaped the House of the Undying, she escaped the Khals at that Widows' place. She doesn't just inspire loyalists like Illirio(sp?) and Varys. She inspired the Dothraki enough to get them to cross a sea. She gave the Unsullied freedom and a choice, and they chose to follow her. Daario has pledged his Second Sons to her. The Ironborn have pledged themselves to her, not Jon.

    I think the show cares about effectiveness. I think if Jon were on the Iron Throne, he would be dead shortly thereafter, either by assassination, or doing some heroic quest, or by someone waging war to usurp the throne. He suffered the same fate that the other Starks did before him; death. It doesn't matter how noble and honorable you are if the people you are ruling are, in large part, not concerned with those virtues. Jon Snow (and Ned before him) are an oddity to others. They understand Dany because they understand birthright, power, fear, rulership, etc.

    I think there is a sound argument to be made that Dany would be a better ruler than Jon. And she has the same altruistic tendencies, if not to the same degree. But the major focus of her campaign in Slaver's Bay was lifting the people out of slavery. She halted her conquest of Westeros for this. She halted it once again to help defeat the threat in the North. But she also has the streak to rule, which Jon doesn't. And I don't think we can get away with saying "Jon would be a better rule because he doesn't even want to rule". Well, that, apparently, gets you a dead ruler.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    Then as King of the North he led a mission beyond the Wall to capture a wight, and once again got himself killed if not for the intervention of Dany this time.
    Excellent reminder, when Jon was in trouble, Dany rushed out in person to save Jon's ass, even sacrificing one of her dragons.

    If Dany was half as cruel and powerthirsty as some people here are trying to paint her, she would've just gone "The king of the north got himself surrounded by undead? Sucks to be him, one less obstacle in my path to complete dominion MUAHAHAHA!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    He suffered the same fate that the other Starks did before him; death. It doesn't matter how noble and honorable you are if the people you are ruling are, in large part, not concerned with those virtues. Jon Snow (and Ned before him) are an oddity to others. They understand Dany because they understand birthright, power, fear, rulership, etc.
    Correct again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I think there is a sound argument to be made that Dany would be a better ruler than Jon. And she has the same altruistic tendencies, if not to the same degree. But the major focus of her campaign in Slaver's Bay was lifting the people out of slavery. She halted her conquest of Westeros for this. She halted it once again to help defeat the threat in the North. But she also has the streak to rule, which Jon doesn't. And I don't think we can get away with saying "Jon would be a better rule because he doesn't even want to rule". Well, that, apparently, gets you a dead ruler.
    Indeed, ruling is a big responsibility. You need to take hard decisions, not evade them.
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    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    You are confusing the difference between laws and norms.
    No, Im not.

    The British legal system is based on conventions and tradition as much as it based on written laws. Those conventions form part of the law of the land. Westeros is expressly based on War of the Roses Britain.

    Rob Stark explicitly treated POWs (common soldiery) with kindness, mercy and compassion. He gave them medical treatment, and forbade them from harm or retribution from his own men. it is implied that Robert Baratheon did the exact same thing (he expressly provided Barristan Selmy with medical treatment while the Kingsguard was a POW). Jon Snow famously treated his POWs (the Free Folk) with respect, and opposed Stannis Baratheons execution of the King beyond the Wall (even going so far as to interceded to put the man out of his misery).

    Unless terms were set prior to the surrender, the victor can do whatever they want to the defeated in these circumstances.
    Danaerys can do whatever she wants with her prisoners. Shes the Queen (and thus the Law). She can literally make any act legal within her jurisdiction she damn well wants.

    The point is that in Westerossi culture, traditions and law, the execution of POW's who have surrendered (especially members of prominent houses) is viewed as something of a no-no.

    We consistently see Good protagonists show POW's and vanquished foes mercy (Rob, Jon) and only evil protagonists mistreat or kill them.

    Other than Stannis murder of the King beyond the Wall (shown as part of his own descent into Evil and 'burn them all' mentality under the influence of Melisandre; leading to him burning his own daughter alive), the only other other Westerossi we see killing POW's in Westeross is House Bolton and House Clegaine at Harrenhall, and both Sandor Clegaine and Ramsay Bolton have been depicted as murderous and evil with a capital E.

    You can now add Dany to that list. She joins Sandor Clegaine, Ramsay Bolton and Stanis Baratheon (the later, daughter burning version).

    Not a great list to join is it?


    Jon is a terrible ruler, and honestly not a particularly good tactician. He's personally inspiring to other men on the battlefield and bonds well with other warriors, but he sucks at politics and putting him on the Iron Throne would be a recipe for widespread rebellion that he would vacillate over putting down. If Jon becomes king, the Seven Kingdoms collapses in less than a decade.
    Man, we are watching a totally different show here.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2019-04-16 at 05:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    re: Jon and Dany as rulers

    I think we're making far too much of Jon's mercy and altruism in the context of being a ruler. I think if you were to swap Jon and Dany, I couldn't confidently say that Jon would have found himself sailing to Westeros with multiple armies following him.

    As Lord Commander, Jon got himself killed, if not for the intervention of the Red Priestess.

    Then Jon was called upon to rally the North and retake Winterfell, and he again got himself killed if not for the intervention of Sansa and the Knights of the Vale.

    Then as King of the North he led a mission beyond the Wall to capture a wight, and once again got himself killed if not for the intervention of Dany this time.

    And as King of the North when he is called upon to be political and make strategic moves, his honor causes him to spoil the whole thing and make everyone's efforts be in vain (if not for the intervention of Tyrion).

    There is something to be said about someone who consistently tells you he doesn't want to lead or rule. Jon inspires people that already think like he does, and that value the same things he does.

    Dany, on the other hand, opposite to nearly getting herself killed all the time, has extricated herself out of being little more than Drogo's wife, she escaped the House of the Undying, she escaped the Khals at that Widows' place. She doesn't just inspire loyalists like Illirio(sp?) and Varys. She inspired the Dothraki enough to get them to cross a sea. She gave the Unsullied freedom and a choice, and they chose to follow her. Daario has pledged his Second Sons to her. The Ironborn have pledged themselves to her, not Jon.

    I think the show cares about effectiveness. I think if Jon were on the Iron Throne, he would be dead shortly thereafter, either by assassination, or doing some heroic quest, or by someone waging war to usurp the throne. He suffered the same fate that the other Starks did before him; death. It doesn't matter how noble and honorable you are if the people you are ruling are, in large part, not concerned with those virtues. Jon Snow (and Ned before him) are an oddity to others. They understand Dany because they understand birthright, power, fear, rulership, etc.

    I think there is a sound argument to be made that Dany would be a better ruler than Jon. And she has the same altruistic tendencies, if not to the same degree. But the major focus of her campaign in Slaver's Bay was lifting the people out of slavery. She halted her conquest of Westeros for this. She halted it once again to help defeat the threat in the North. But she also has the streak to rule, which Jon doesn't. And I don't think we can get away with saying "Jon would be a better rule because he doesn't even want to rule". Well, that, apparently, gets you a dead ruler.
    Jon doesnt make decisions based on 'How to be King', or even 'How to be the best King'. He doesnt want a crown, or a throne. He's never ever asked for a position of leadership. Sam nominated him for Lord Commander, the Northmen made him their King (despite his Bastard status), and now he's found out he's really Aegon, he doesnt want that Crown either.

    Jon bases his decisions on 'how can I best protect the lives of the people of Westeros, and defeat the Night King'. Rulership or Kingship is just a means to an end for him.

    Dany is a very different kettle of fish, and is diametrically opposite. Unlike Jon, her central motivation is 'Claim the Iron Throne'. She wants to rule the 7 Kingdoms. She bases all her decisions around this one central motivation and character arc.

    She uses her 'liberate slaves' and 'break the wheel' as her justification or vehicle for her goal of Rulership, and seems to have convinced most of those close to her and her followers (and herself... and many viewers of the show) that she is genuinely altruistic. However when Tyrion tries to discuss with her a successor, she shuts him down, showing her true colors. It's no surprise Tyrion is starting to openly doubt her oft repeated altruism.

    Jon is literally the exact opposite.

    Spoiler: Re: Jon, the Tarlys and Dany
    Show
    Remains to be seen what Jon does about the information re Dany burning the Tarlys alive. Going by his reaction when he found out another ally (Melisandre) burnt Shireen Baratheon to death (exiling her on pain of death), and his reaction to Stannis burning the King beyond the wall to death, he's not going to take it well I feel.

    It directly contradicts his own mercy he showed to two of his own traitors (deliberatly echoed by the show) in the Karstarks and Umbers. He ignored his counsellor (Sansa) and her urging of him to treat them harshly, and showed mercy and compassion and pardoned them. Dany had the same situation, ignored the advice of Tyrion urging mercy and burnt them to death (something we KNOW Jon isnt happy about when he's been confronted with in the past).

    If they're true to Jons arc here, this is going to be a major schism between him and Dany.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2019-04-16 at 05:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Don't forget that Robert Baratheon also approved sending assassins after Dany just because she was being sold as a concubine getting married.

    Really Dany may not be exactly "good" by our modern standards, but by Westeros standards she's basically as good as it gets (Jon is a cheater that doesn't die when he's killed so he can afford to be too trustworthy and end up stabbed, Dany has no such luxury).
    Dany is no where near the moral centre of the show. Thats Jon (and Tyrion).

    From a DnD alignment perspective, shes neither Good nor Evil (and capable of both). She's capricious, rarely keeps her word (unless it's a threat), lacks any real love of family, honor or tradition, and actively opposes those in power and rulership.

    Morally she's almost certainly Neutral, and she's likely Chaotic on the L/C scale (due to her capricious and unpredictable nature, desire to bring about change, and lack of respect for honor, family or tradition).

    Jon by comparison would be LG (and Tyrion probably more NG).

    Dany has ordered and/ or participated in (with some glee) the crucifiction of hundreds of Masters. She's entombed a friend who betrayed her alive. She's burnt alive people who have betrayed her, she's burnt alive enemies left right and centre (the Warlocks, the Khals, the Witch who pisoned Drogo). She's fed men to her dragons. She's brought an army of rapists to Westeros. Shes burnt people alive who have failed to acknowledge her as Queen. She recently threated Varys with the same fate.

    If it wasnt for the counsel of Barristan Selmy in Mereen and Tyrion on Dragonstone (he also interceded to stop her from burning Varys alive) she would have burnt a lot more people to death already, and likely Kings Landing would be in flames by now, and tens of thousands of people would be ash.

    Remember; her father didnt start out as 'the mad king'. At first he was a good king and only burnt his enemies. Then he started seeing enemies everywhere.

    To Danys credit, she listens and generally refrains from mass slaughter and burning everyone to death. However the show has been at pains to point out her capricious nature, and the fact her penchant for burning people to death, or acts of great cruelty is starting to get a little out of hand.

    Importantly for the show, her burning of prisoners, and her cruelty and desire to rule, is in direct conflict with Jons arc, and his own actions.

    I have a sneaking suspicion I know how that is going to play out, and to the showrunners credit they've handled it well. Unless you sit back and look at it objectively, Dany still (even now) seems like an altruistic protagonist.

    She's really not.

    Plenty of viewers still cant see what has been pretty apparent re Dany for some time now, and where the show writers have been taking her (and Jon). 'The Gods have flipped a coin' with the two Targaryan heirs, and it was Jon that got the good toss, and Dany that is the bad one.
    Last edited by Malifice; 2019-04-16 at 05:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Dany is no where near the moral centre of the show. Thats Jon (and Tyrion).
    The show doesn't have a moral center, that's the m************ point. ASOIAF is a deconstruction of fantasy tropes that deliberately takes aim at the idea that virtue results in power and that the good guys should win because they are good. It specifically takes place in a deeply grimdark reality wherein the vaguely Christian-like nice religion of the Seven is a lie and the 'let's burn some children for power' god is not only real but also the only supernatural entity trying to prevent the undead from conquering the world.

    Making D&D alignment comparisons, a poor system for framing ethical debate in the first place, to this universe is just ridiculous.

    Jon doesnt make decisions based on 'How to be King', or even 'How to be the best King'. He doesnt want a crown, or a throne. He's never ever asked for a position of leadership. Sam nominated him for Lord Commander, the Northmen made him their King (despite his Bastard status), and now he's found out he's really Aegon, he doesnt want that Crown either.

    Jon bases his decisions on 'how can I best protect the lives of the people of Westeros, and defeat the Night King'. Rulership or Kingship is just a means to an end for him.
    And Jon's refusal to take rulership seriously and to make hard choices with regard to being a leader has rebounded back on him several times and thereby jeopardized his ability to stop the undead threat he cares about so much. This is the same thing that happened to Ned Stark and to Rob Stark, they let the perfect be the enemy of the good and they ended up dead. Leadership of large organizations requires, in an imperfect world and Westeros is super imperfect, serious compromises, being unwilling to make them is a problem for a ruler. To quote Black Panther: "It is hard for a good man to be a good king." Jon's a great man, but he's a pretty lousy king in the show. In the books, he's actually significantly more morally compromised and happens to be a better ruler too.
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The show doesn't have a moral center, that's the m************ point. ASOIAF is a deconstruction of fantasy tropes that deliberately takes aim at the idea that virtue results in power and that the good guys should win because they are good.
    You say that, but I guarantee you Jon Snow (the LG moral center) will wind up King, and will win against the Night King because of his virtue.

    Dany will fail because of her lack thereof.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Jon doesnt make decisions based on 'How to be King', or even 'How to be the best King'. He doesnt want a crown, or a throne. He's never ever asked for a position of leadership. Sam nominated him for Lord Commander, the Northmen made him their King (despite his Bastard status), and now he's found out he's really Aegon, he doesnt want that Crown either.

    Jon bases his decisions on 'how can I best protect the lives of the people of Westeros, and defeat the Night King'. Rulership or Kingship is just a means to an end for him.
    My point is that these virtues in Jon make for a poor ruler/leader. You can pretty much freeze every scene where Jon has failed in a big way (his assassination by his brothers in the Night's Watch, his defeat at the Battle of the Bastards, his besiegement beyond the Wall by a horde of undead, his failure to secure peace with Cersei). Freeze these scenes and then tell yourself "well, at least his intentions were good". See what that gets you? Nothing.
    Dany is a very different kettle of fish, and is diametrically opposite. Unlike Jon, her central motivation is 'Claim the Iron Throne'. She wants to rule the 7 Kingdoms. She bases all her decisions around this one central motivation and character arc.
    Yes, and for this she is in the *best* position of anyone in the show to defeat the Night King *AND* Cersei. See the difference?

    Banking on good intentions alone gets you killed. Being mindful of your rulership gets you power and stability.
    She uses her 'liberate slaves' and 'break the wheel' as her justification or vehicle for her goal of Rulership, and seems to have convinced most of those close to her and her followers (and herself... and many viewers of the show) that she is genuinely altruistic.
    Eh... no. Dany seems genuinely interested in helping the masses. She is opposed to slavery, tyranny, fighting pits, reaving, etc. She does not extend all of this to her political opponents however. That's pretty par for the course for any conqueror.
    However when Tyrion tries to discuss with her a successor, she shuts him down, showing her true colors. It's no surprise Tyrion is starting to openly doubt her oft repeated altruism.
    That was a very clunky conversation and he brings it up out of left field. That was just bad writing, to remind us that she can't have children (presumably because she's now pregnant).
    Jon is literally the exact opposite.
    They are different, for sure. Dany is effective and powerful, and unites slaves, savages, mercenaries, and Westerosi.

    Jon loses his life, loses political moves, loses the people following him, etc.
    Spoiler: Re: Jon, the Tarlys and Dany
    Show
    Remains to be seen what Jon does about the information re Dany burning the Tarlys alive. Going by his reaction when he found out another ally (Melisandre) burnt Shireen Baratheon to death (exiling her on pain of death), and his reaction to Stannis burning the King beyond the wall to death, he's not going to take it well I feel.

    It directly contradicts his own mercy he showed to two of his own traitors (deliberatly echoed by the show) in the Karstarks and Umbers. He ignored his counsellor (Sansa) and her urging of him to treat them harshly, and showed mercy and compassion and pardoned them. Dany had the same situation, ignored the advice of Tyrion urging mercy and burnt them to death (something we KNOW Jon isnt happy about when he's been confronted with in the past).

    If they're true to Jons arc here, this is going to be a major schism between him and Dany.
    Sansa wasn't urging harsh treatment, she was urging him to be just. And he wasn't. No one was saying the Umbers and Karstarks should be executed, but something should be done. At the very least some Houses showed great loyalty to the Starks, and they should have been rewarded. Instead, Jon did nothing to those that betrayed them and nothing to those that were loyal. Again, he is not a great ruler. But he is an honorable man of action.
    Plenty of viewers still cant see what has been pretty apparent re Dany for some time now, and where the show writers have been taking her (and Jon). 'The Gods have flipped a coin' with the two Targaryan heirs, and it was Jon that got the good toss, and Dany that is the bad one.
    We saw the two Targaryan heirs already; Viserys and Dany. Dany is the good one. She recognizes the faults in her brother as a ruler, she recognizes the cruelty in the world when she is a slave to Drogo. She wants to make the world a better place. And to do that, as a ruler, you need to conquer. And you can't do that without violence.

    Jon is much more a Stark than a Targaryan, because he was raised by them. And we see what happened to the Starks; pulverized and scattered to the winds. Those that didn't die were saved and helped by others much less noble and honorable then them.

    @Mecalich: I realized after Malifice quoted you that I overlooked your post earlier and said much the same that you had already said. Sorry for that. I would have just quoted you and given you a +1.
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    As an example of what Jon could have done differently...

    I posit that the Manderlays would not have left Winterfell if:

    1. Jon had punished Houses Umber and Karstark for their betrayal. Jon rules the North now and has men under him that exert his power over the North. If he uses it to keep people in line, this will inform other people to stay in line as well.

    2. Jon had made his decision to bend the knee non-negotiable and final. Jon should have made the choice very clear, with the implication of punishment for any dissenters. Instead, he said something like "I didn't ask to be king, but I'm doing what I think is right".

    These are poor decisions with poor consequences.

    Remember, there is a massive horde of undead marching to Winterfell, complete with giants and giant spiders and a dragon. If Jon can't be bothered to speak harshly in order to keep his subjects united and motivated, why should the Manderlays be bothered to chafe under the dragon queen?
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    You say that, but I guarantee you Jon Snow (the LG moral center) will wind up King, and will win against the Night King because of his virtue.

    Dany will fail because of her lack thereof.
    Soooo, are you just completely going to ignore that "LG" Jon almost got himself killed (again) by charging straight into the Night King's hands and it was "evil" Dany that went out of her way to save his ass?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    I really think there is a world of difference between being a good person (according to D&D), and being a good ruler.
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    I will be fairly surprised if Jon Snow even survives to the end of Game of Thrones, much less ends up as King of the Seven Kingdoms. If he's the Last Hero and/or the Prince that was Promised its far more likely that he'll die gloriously in some sort of suicidal showdown with the Night King. Heck I wouldn't put it past him to strap a bunch of wildfire to himself an go out in a literal blaze of glory. After all, Jon is by far the biggest sword wielding noble sacrifice left set up to go mano-a-mano with the Night King. He's got a Valyrian Steel sword and everything. Who else would it be? Arya? Sir Jorah? Jamie? Sam?

    R'hllor didn't bring Jon back from the dead to sit on top of the Iron Throne. He brought him back to fight White Walkers. I wouldn't bet on Jon outlasting that particular conflict in any way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Ah, yes, Stannis "I have overwhemling numerical advantage and still miserably fail".
    Stannis "Somehow I was in the winning team of this war and only got a deadend job in some backwater island."
    Stannis "I lost all my horses and what's left of my army is starving and freezing to death, let's go try to besiege the most fortified position in the north".
    Stannis "that pyromaniac sorceress is totally trustworthy and won't just abandon me when things go south".

    Clearly one of the greatest military masterminds of his time, a master of evaluating other people's personalities, his opinion is indeed trustworthy and could never possibly be wrong, that's why he's such in a good standing this season. Wait a minute...

    For all of Stannis reliability, Randyl probably just got lucky that Robert was really drunk that day.
    From the books, Kevan Lanniester said "Randyll Tarly is the finest soldier in the realm. A poor Hand for peacetime, but with Tywin dead there's no better man to finish this war."

    I also think you are being too dismissive of Stannis's opinion, and the fact that Tarly beat Robert. Stannis is widely regarded as a decent commander, and Robert Baratheon took to drinking after his rebellion (remember that that was the only battle he lost).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The show doesn't have a moral center, that's the m************ point. ASOIAF is a deconstruction of fantasy tropes that deliberately takes aim at the idea that virtue results in power and that the good guys should win because they are good. It specifically takes place in a deeply grimdark reality wherein the vaguely Christian-like nice religion of the Seven is a lie and the 'let's burn some children for power' god is not only real but also the only supernatural entity trying to prevent the undead from conquering the world.

    Making D&D alignment comparisons, a poor system for framing ethical debate in the first place, to this universe is just ridiculous.

    And Jon's refusal to take rulership seriously and to make hard choices with regard to being a leader has rebounded back on him several times and thereby jeopardized his ability to stop the undead threat he cares about so much. This is the same thing that happened to Ned Stark and to Rob Stark, they let the perfect be the enemy of the good and they ended up dead. Leadership of large organizations requires, in an imperfect world and Westeros is super imperfect, serious compromises, being unwilling to make them is a problem for a ruler. To quote Black Panther: "It is hard for a good man to be a good king." Jon's a great man, but he's a pretty lousy king in the show. In the books, he's actually significantly more morally compromised and happens to be a better ruler too.
    I agree with you.

    I think people are just confused because they are so used to the fantasy trope of the one who becomes king being ideally suited for the task, both in terms of morality and other leadership qualities (perhaps after overcoming whatever flaw they did have). Thankfully GoT moves away from this simplistic trope with no character meeting that ideal. Instead all the contenders have weaknesses as well as strengths. I don't know who will end up on the Throne (it may be Dany or Jon, or someone else), but they will be a realistically flawed leader who is either not a flawless champion of good, or not a wise and clever ruler - or more likely both.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2019-04-16 at 08:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    I think Jaime also commends Randyll last season when he's trying to secure his support against the Tyrells. But I don't remember exactly what was said.
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I think Jaime also commends Randyll last season when he's trying to secure his support against the Tyrells. But I don't remember exactly what was said.
    Yes, I remember that too, but I couldn't remember it precisely enough to quote it.

    All up, I think there's plenty of evidence that Tarly was the best commander left in Westeros at the time of his death. Perhaps the best in the whole series with Robert Baratheon, Khal Drogo and Robb Stark being other contenders.

    Of course, I'm sure that there will be some that argue that Jon Snow or Danyrius Targerian are the best - on the basis of very little evidence.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2019-04-16 at 08:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    I will be fairly surprised if Jon Snow even survives to the end of Game of Thrones, much less ends up as King of the Seven Kingdoms. If he's the Last Hero and/or the Prince that was Promised its far more likely that he'll die gloriously in some sort of suicidal showdown with the Night King. Heck I wouldn't put it past him to strap a bunch of wildfire to himself an go out in a literal blaze of glory. After all, Jon is by far the biggest sword wielding noble sacrifice left set up to go mano-a-mano with the Night King. He's got a Valyrian Steel sword and everything. Who else would it be? Arya? Sir Jorah? Jamie? Sam?

    R'hllor didn't bring Jon back from the dead to sit on top of the Iron Throne. He brought him back to fight White Walkers. I wouldn't bet on Jon outlasting that particular conflict in any way.
    Agreed. My current bet for the eventual occupant of whatever Iron Throne is left after this is all over is Gendry. There is literally no reason for him to have been brought back into the story other than as the unexpected king, diamond in the rough, etc., on the rationale that he's the last actual son of Robert Baratheon, bastard or not.

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    I don't think I'd be okay with Gendry, as I don't really know much about it him and what I do know doesn't scream "king" to me.

    It's probably more fair to say that I don't think I'd feel very strongly about it because he's largely unknown to me. I'd probably be disappointed, moreso than if the throne were destroyed and nobody got it or something like that.
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Otomodachi View Post
    On another note, cuz everything I have to say about Jon and Dany has been covered-

    Is anyone else expecting/anticipating/dreading Arya's comeuppance via the House of Black and White? She joined up with, deceived, robbed and betrayed a weird, identity absorbing death cult worshipping the archetypal god of death, not *a* god of death but *the* god of death. That seems like something that should have consequences, as much as I really admire Arya.
    It seems likely that whatever she was fleeing from in the trailer is related to some kind of comeuppance.

    Speaking of which, I'll add that link to the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Agreed. My current bet for the eventual occupant of whatever Iron Throne is left after this is all over is Gendry. There is literally no reason for him to have been brought back into the story other than as the unexpected king, diamond in the rough, etc., on the rationale that he's the last actual son of Robert Baratheon, bastard or not.
    While that's possible, I think it's more likely that he'll end up as Lord of Storm's End, since he's the last living Baratheon. And he's definitely a bastard (Robert's marriage to Cersei, while unhappy, was legitimate) so it would take another monarch to legitimize him to his title and lands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Of course, I'm sure that there will be some that argue that Jon Snow or Danyrius Targerian are the best - on the basis of very little evidence.
    I don't know about "best", but Jon is a pretty sound tactician.
    Dany doesn't have to be, she's surrounded herself with people who are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    R'hllor didn't bring Jon back from the dead to sit on top of the Iron Throne. He brought him back to fight White Walkers. I wouldn't bet on Jon outlasting that particular conflict in any way.
    Speaking of which, do we know anything concrete about this entity yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    From the books, Kevan Lanniester said "Randyll Tarly is the finest soldier in the realm. A poor Hand for peacetime, but with Tywin dead there's no better man to finish this war."

    I also think you are being too dismissive of Stannis's opinion, and the fact that Tarly beat Robert. Stannis is widely regarded as a decent commander, and Robert Baratheon took to drinking after his rebellion (remember that that was the only battle he lost).
    That's quite an interesting definition of "lost", since Robert followed by completely crushing the Targaryen and Tarly couldn't think of anything better than turn coat. If he was such a strategic genius, couldn't he have led a resistance against the usurper or something?

    Basically Tarly has one "victory" to his name and it was a completely hollow useless one where the guy that "lost" ended up becoming the new king shortly after and Tarly just giving up in the spot and bending the knee. So again for all we know Robert may've just had a drink too much and then just decided to sober up or Robert made a fake retreat that got Starly to think he "won" only to be caught completely out of position while Robert won the war.

    And then during the five way civil war he basically sits in his thumbs doing nothing until Cersei gives the orders to go pillage High Garden, and "the finest soldier in the realm" ends up captured while Jamie and Bronn are the ones who escape and survive to fight another day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I agree with you.

    I think people are just confused because they are so used to the fantasy trope of the one who becomes king being ideally suited for the task, both in terms of morality and other leadership qualities (perhaps after overcoming whatever flaw they did have). Thankfully GoT moves away from this simplistic trope with no character meeting that ideal. Instead all the contenders have weaknesses as well as strengths. I don't know who will end up on the Throne (it may be Dany or Jon, or someone else), but they will be a realistically flawed leader who is either not a flawless champion of good, or not a wise and clever ruler - or more likely both.
    True, it would be quite weird if some idealized king/queen ends up rising to the throne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Yes, I remember that too, but I couldn't remember it precisely enough to quote it.

    All up, I think there's plenty of evidence that Tarly was the best commander left in Westeros at the time of his death. Perhaps the best in the whole series with Robert Baratheon, Khal Drogo and Robb Stark being other contenders.

    Of course, I'm sure that there will be some that argue that Jon Snow or Danyrius Targerian are the best - on the basis of very little evidence.
    What, Dany roflstomping Tarly isn't evidence enough?
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    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: Game of Thrones Season 8 (spoiler tags)

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    What, Dany roflstomping Tarly isn't evidence enough?
    Just using this to springboard back to another point made earlier by someone, which is that Tyrion looked dismayed while Drogon and Dany were burning everyone.

    The conclusion drawn is that Tyrion feels she's being too brutal.

    I didn't think that during that scene. I think Tyrion is reflecting on what he has wrought on his own family. He brought Dany over and is watching Lannisters trying to fight/escape a dragon that is burning them alive.

    It's less "oh my god she is so brutal" and more "oh my god those are my kinsmen down there". Tyrion isn't delusional to think Dany's dragons weren't going to be brought to bear in the war for Westeros. He was just coming to terms with the fact that he is on the side against his family, and watching them getting curbstomped by a dragon that they can do nothing to stop.

    Tyrion is hated by Cersei for killing their mother. She thinks he will kill her. He killed their father. He's been accused of killing his nephew. And now he's watching a dragon annihilate Lannisters. A dragon being ridden by his queen.

    That was the dismay on his face, in my opinion.
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