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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Durkon was never unnaturally evil; the vampire was a different character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I don't think the Bacon number can be obtained via collaborations in non-acting environments. Similarly, I believe you can only obtain an Erdős number via peer-review publications, not just any kind of collaboration.

    Grey Wolf
    I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.
    (Also, just a couple quotes back, this discussion was about the Bacon Number of various OotS characters via Gygax.)
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    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    I think this comic proves that Durkon and clerics in general are a bad influence to parties, when Durkon was not with the party, they had to plan, and did plan very cleverly to succeed, now that Durkon is back, all they planned was to make Haley and V invisible which was easily purged, and now they know that no matter what happens, Durkon can remove enchantments, curses, resurrect, etc.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.
    No. Not at all what I understand. The Bacon and Erdős numbers are independent. If you happen to have a non-infinite value for both, you can sum them to obtain your Bacon-Erdős number (Natalie Portman, for example), but you don't obtain an Erdős number from acting roles or through the Bacon number.

    Informal as it may be, this is still mathematics. There is always a procedure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.
    (Also, just a couple quotes back, this discussion was about the Bacon Number of various OotS characters via Gygax.)
    AFAIK the Erdos number was originally defined based on peer reviewed publications and people who maintain lists still do so on that basis. Mathematicians publish lots of collaborative papers. Erdos was a graph theorist and unusually widely collaborated, the idea of making a graph of mathematical collaborations was obvious enough and defining distance from Erdos made a nice joke, because the number was low for almost everyone who'd get the joke.

    But it's supposed to be collaborations on research papers. This may be enough to give everyone with a Erdos number a Bacon number (I don't know if Bacon number is usually defined for professional movie and TV appearances or for any common appearance), but it doesn't work in reverse.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2019-04-16 at 10:59 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I don't think the Bacon number can be obtained via collaborations in non-acting environments. Similarly, I believe you can only obtain an Erdős number via peer-review publications, not just any kind of collaboration.

    Grey Wolf
    A professor at the university I attended has a Bacon number (he is credited for the blackboard math in Good Will Hunting). Another professor there has an Erdos number (her advisor published with Erdos). For these two professors to obtain a Bacon-Erdos number, must they collaborate on a film, an article, either, or both?

    (I seem to recall one of them saying their Bacon-Erdos numbers would be four. But I don't remember exactly how.)

    Edit: Wow, mega ninja! That is totally my own fault.
    Last edited by Aveline; 2019-04-16 at 11:18 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    A professor at the university I attended has a Bacon number (he is credited for the blackboard math in Good Will Hunting). Another professor there has an Erdos number (her advisor published with Erdos). For these two professors to obtain a Bacon-Erdos number, must they collaborate on a film, an article, either, or both?
    The professor with the Bacon number needs to publish a peer-reviewed paper with someone that already has an Erdős number. The other one needs to appear in a film with someone with a Bacon number. Then they'll both have a Bacon-Erdős number. The easiest thing, therefore, is for them to publish together, and do a short film about it. At that point, they'll each have each other's current number +1, and thus the same Bacon-Erdős number

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A wand is never retroactive, nor is it proactive. It is precisely what it needs to be.
    That's wand-elf. Regular wands are reactive or inactive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    The Ex-Exarch bothered to poke his casting hand outside of the barrier to summon the Elementals. So I guess, the barrier won't let you summon anything on the other side of it...
    I think that the Elementals are behind the Order, forcing it to fight on two fronts is deliberate. Thereís also the chance that the barrier would dispel the Elementals crossing it. I donít see any reason why the blue barrier would stop a summoned deva, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by Manji View Post
    I think this comic proves that Durkon and clerics in general are a bad influence to parties, when Durkon was not with the party, they had to plan, and did plan very cleverly to succeed, now that Durkon is back, all they planned was to make Haley and V invisible which was easily purged, and now they know that no matter what happens, Durkon can remove enchantments, curses, resurrect, etc.
    Iím sure they have a plan. However they just made contact with the ennemy.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    Does Loki need a reason?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoelessgdowar View Post
    Loki wanted the Talisman so Nale didn't.
    Nale didn't what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoelessgdowar View Post
    Hilgya could have made a deal with the IFCC, who also seem to have some influence still over the Linear Guild, and may even be manipulating Team Evil. We don't know all the ramifications, and would need a pretty impressive murder board and venn diagram hybrid to track all the intersections and links in the Stickverse.
    Not sure how her devotion to Loki squares with cutting a deal with IFCC. Betting the under on that one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    I just want to complain again how badly named Mind Blank is
    Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the term "drawing a blank" as it pertains to thinking of or remembering something?
    Complaint noted, and rejected.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the term "drawing a blank" as it pertains to thinking of or remembering something?
    Complaint noted, and rejected.
    I am, yes. That's why I think the more logical use is to make a mind blank - i.e., unable to think or remember. Not the tortured justification that it makes it seem like you're mindless, but not really be.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    I am, yes. That's why I think the more logical use is to make a mind blank - i.e., unable to think or remember. Not the tortured justification that it makes it seem like you're mindless, but not really be.
    Mind Blank's name, AFAICRC, may have been inspired by and old psionic power/defense mode of the same name that was explained as "emptying one's mind" in order for defending oneself against mental attacks. This draws from mystic/martial arts tales of masters whose minds can be so peaceful and empty of thought that they can't be affected by mental powers.

    It's not "make someone's Mind Blank", but instead "keep your Mind Blank".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Nale didn't what?
    Get the talisman, presumably.

    Why Loki is supposed to care about whether a mortal can command outdated monsters is beyond me.
    You, who have nothing at all to believe in; to you, whose motto is "money comes first;" who are you, to tell us that our lives have been wasted? That all that we've fought for has turned into dust?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Get the talisman, presumably.

    Why Loki is supposed to care about whether a mortal can command outdated monsters is beyond me.
    Maybe the gods themselves (and even the Snarl) are outdated monsters, since they appeared many editions ago.
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
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    But they are few, canít be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
    (Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)

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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Maybe the gods themselves (and even the Snarl) are outdated monsters, since they appeared many editions ago.
    Unlikely, since by the very definition given in the comic, the monsters in that pit where monsters that never got an update in 3ed rules, and divine beings did get an update.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Well...Gary Gygax has a Bacon Number of 2 thanks to an appearance on Futurama. He's been in a comic with Roy, whose Bacon Number is therefore 3. So Hilgya's Bacon Number would be 4, as would most OotS characters aside from Roy's Archon. Unless someone with a lower Bacon Number showed up in OotS?
    Funnily Enough, with at least a triple Bacon number of 2 (ie 2 via 3 different links) Fruit Pie would in fact be better than Gygax as a link to Kevin Bacon.

    Plus Fruit Pie appeared in #91, while Gygax didn't appear until #536, meaning he established the Bacon # for the order 445 pages (or 3 books) sooner
    Last edited by Shoelessgdowar; 2019-04-16 at 02:52 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Leftour View Post
    Granted, they haven't used summon tactics before
    Aren't we forgetting something?
    Last edited by Elanorea; 2019-04-16 at 03:01 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    The urge to see Roy chuck a weasel in the Exarch's face is very appealing for some unknown reason.

    Wouldn't "Mind Shield" be more aptly named?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Wouldn't "Mind Shield" be more aptly named?
    Possibly. But I actually think "mind blank" is more evocative of a certain kind of mental discipline. You are able to avoid domination because the magic clears your mind, leaving a dominator nothing to latch on to.
    You, who have nothing at all to believe in; to you, whose motto is "money comes first;" who are you, to tell us that our lives have been wasted? That all that we've fought for has turned into dust?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Fortunately, the Hold Person/Monster family of spells allow a full-round action each round to get a new save. They'll all get out of it eventually. Preferably, Durkon's spell remove paralysis can be used on the most important person first.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stiletto View Post
    Fortunately, the Hold Person/Monster family of spells allow a full-round action each round to get a new save. They'll all get out of it eventually. Preferably, Durkon's spell remove paralysis can be used on the most important person first.
    The most important one is the one with the highest Wis save... Roy

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannoire View Post
    The most important one is the one with the highest Wis save... Roy
    Actually, its entirely possible that Elan has a higher will save than Roy, albeit not by much. If Roy had 18 wis and put some feats into boosting his will save, he just about breaks even with a bard's will save, after a potential wis penalty from Elan.

    Of course, the Dashing Swordsman class might not have the same save progression as a bard, or might even suffer a will save penalty for dramatic moments (the hero never escapes while the villain is monologuing, for example), so its possible that Roy has the third highest save behind V and Durkon.

    Of course, this is all moot because you actually want to burn the spells on the person least likely to break out on their own, unless you have reason to believe they will just immediately get hit with it again.
    ďEvil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.Ē

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.
    Didnít you ever see the original Ghostbusters?
    A more rounded reading of fantasy and the influences on d and d - 70s and 80s culture and American Renaissance fairs - is something any fantasy fan should have
    Itís a shame so many younger fantasy fans have a contempt for the older stories (eg those who canít stand the earlier discworld novels without realising its parody of Vance and d&d)
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Didnít you ever see the original Ghostbusters?
    This is exactly what I thought of too.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Didnít you ever see the original Ghostbusters?
    The purple quiddity arose when Gozer asked the Dark One if he was a god, and the Dark One said "yes!"

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    Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-04-16 at 07:46 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Itís a shame so many younger fantasy fans have a contempt for the older stories (eg those who canít stand the earlier discworld novels without realising its parody of Vance and d&d)
    The city of Ankh-Morpork is a parody of or at least was based on Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar. However, according Morpork's Wikipage, Pratchett claims it was unconscious. Not sure I believe that. Fafhrd and Grey Mouser do have a cameo in Colour of Magic under different names,
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Mind Blank's name, AFAICRC, may have been inspired by and old psionic power/defense mode of the same name that was explained as "emptying one's mind" in order for defending oneself against mental attacks. This draws from mystic/martial arts tales of masters whose minds can be so peaceful and empty of thought that they can't be affected by mental powers.

    It's not "make someone's Mind Blank", but instead "keep your Mind Blank".
    Yeah, sounds very 1e psionics. Don't have that book with me at the moment. Zim said what I was going to say, but better, so Zim's take gets a solid +1 from me.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-04-16 at 09:22 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Possibly. But I actually think "mind blank" is more evocative of a certain kind of mental discipline. You are able to avoid domination because the magic clears your mind, leaving a dominator nothing to latch on to.
    All well & good in concept - but for that to work, it would basically have to turn a barbarian into a monk (personality wise) for the duration. And even the "fluff" text doesn't suggest that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Actually, its entirely possible that Elan has a higher will save than Roy, albeit not by much. If Roy had 18 wis and put some feats into boosting his will save, he just about breaks even with a bard's will save, after a potential wis penalty from Elan.

    Of course, the Dashing Swordsman class might not have the same save progression as a bard, or might even suffer a will save penalty for dramatic moments (the hero never escapes while the villain is monologuing, for example), so its possible that Roy has the third highest save behind V and Durkon.

    Of course, this is all moot because you actually want to burn the spells on the person least likely to break out on their own, unless you have reason to believe they will just immediately get hit with it again.
    It's also moot because there is at least one statement on panel that Elan has a worse will save than Roy (shortly before his death, Durkon says "weak willed" - as in those who would fall to Malack's dominating gaze - describes most of the Order, and wishes Mr Scruffy could just bring Roy. Straight away, that means Durkon thinks Elan & Haley both have Belkar-comparable will saves, while Roy's is good.)
    Last edited by Reboot; 2019-04-17 at 05:57 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    He could also be again projecting his general attitude of "Lawful is strong, Chaotic is weak", which was one of the pillars of his characterization until this book. If we didn't have WoG that he's LG, I suspect much of the Playground would peg Durkon as LN.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Nale didn't what?
    It sounds like Shoeless thought Loki considered the possibility of Nale getting control of an artifact which granted him control over a bunch of creatures without Will saves so dangerous that he would intervene to stop Nale from getting the talisman. By sending a cleric to help him get the talisman...


    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.
    I'd expect the super-feeblemind spell you're describing to be called something more like "blank mind". And even then, I'd wonder why it wasn't called "erase mind" or "suppress mind" or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    All well & good in concept - but for that to work, it would basically have to turn a barbarian into a monk (personality wise) for the duration.
    Why? Mind blank lets you get the mind-clearing effect without the mental discipline of a monk, just like feather fall gives you the Slow Fall ability without that discipline, or finger of death gives you a ranged quivering palm without that discipline. Or, for that matter, like how a gauntlet lets you punch people good without that discipline, though to a lesser extent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    He could also be again projecting his general attitude of "Lawful is strong, Chaotic is weak", which was one of the pillars of his characterization until this book. If we didn't have WoG that he's LG, I suspect much of the Playground would peg Durkon as LN.
    Eh...he's only the second-nicest member of the Order by virtue of being stuck with Elan. I'd peg Roy as LN before Durkon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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    The Tale of Demman, Second King of Ireland, a CKII AAR, won a WritAAR of the Week award. Winner of Villainous Competition 8
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    Avatar by Recaiden.

  30. - Top - End - #210
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

    Nah, Roy's broken way too many rules for that.

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