OOTS #1161 - The Discussion Thread

[GreatWyrmGold]

Durkon was never unnaturally evil; the vampire was a different character.

I don't think the Bacon number can be obtained via collaborations in non-acting environments. Similarly, I believe you can only obtain an Erdős number via peer-review publications, not just any kind of collaboration.

Grey Wolf

I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.
(Also, just a couple quotes back, this discussion was about the Bacon Number of various OotS characters via Gygax.)

[Manji]

I think this comic proves that Durkon and clerics in general are a bad influence to parties, when Durkon was not with the party, they had to plan, and did plan very cleverly to succeed, now that Durkon is back, all they planned was to make Haley and V invisible which was easily purged, and now they know that no matter what happens, Durkon can remove enchantments, curses, resurrect, etc.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.

No. Not at all what I understand. The Bacon and Erdős numbers are independent. If you happen to have a non-infinite value for both, you can sum them to obtain your Bacon-Erdős number (Natalie Portman, for example), but you don't obtain an Erdős number from acting roles or through the Bacon number.

Informal as it may be, this is still mathematics. There is always a procedure.

Grey Wolf

[Doug Lampert]

I've heard that everyone with a Bacon number has an Erdős number no more than that plus four, thanks to Daniel Kleitman. So there doesn't seem to be a standard procedure for this largely-informal measurement.
(Also, just a couple quotes back, this discussion was about the Bacon Number of various OotS characters via Gygax.)

AFAIK the Erdos number was originally defined based on peer reviewed publications and people who maintain lists still do so on that basis. Mathematicians publish lots of collaborative papers. Erdos was a graph theorist and unusually widely collaborated, the idea of making a graph of mathematical collaborations was obvious enough and defining distance from Erdos made a nice joke, because the number was low for almost everyone who'd get the joke.

But it's supposed to be collaborations on research papers. This may be enough to give everyone with a Erdos number a Bacon number (I don't know if Bacon number is usually defined for professional movie and TV appearances or for any common appearance), but it doesn't work in reverse.

[Aveline]

I don't think the Bacon number can be obtained via collaborations in non-acting environments. Similarly, I believe you can only obtain an Erdős number via peer-review publications, not just any kind of collaboration.

Grey Wolf

A professor at the university I attended has a Bacon number (he is credited for the blackboard math in Good Will Hunting). Another professor there has an Erdos number (her advisor published with Erdos). For these two professors to obtain a Bacon-Erdos number, must they collaborate on a film, an article, either, or both?

(I seem to recall one of them saying their Bacon-Erdos numbers would be four. But I don't remember exactly how.)

Edit: Wow, mega ninja! That is totally my own fault.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A professor at the university I attended has a Bacon number (he is credited for the blackboard math in Good Will Hunting). Another professor there has an Erdos number (her advisor published with Erdos). For these two professors to obtain a Bacon-Erdos number, must they collaborate on a film, an article, either, or both?

The professor with the Bacon number needs to publish a peer-reviewed paper with someone that already has an Erdős number. The other one needs to appear in a film with someone with a Bacon number. Then they'll both have a Bacon-Erdős number. The easiest thing, therefore, is for them to publish together, and do a short film about it. At that point, they'll each have each other's current number +1, and thus the same Bacon-Erdős number

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

A wand is never retroactive, nor is it proactive. It is precisely what it needs to be.

That's wand-elf. Regular wands are reactive or inactive.

I love you, guys.

The Ex-Exarch bothered to poke his casting hand outside of the barrier to summon the Elementals. So I guess, the barrier won't let you summon anything on the other side of it...

I think that the Elementals are behind the Order, forcing it to fight on two fronts is deliberate. There’s also the chance that the barrier would dispel the Elementals crossing it. I don’t see any reason why the blue barrier would stop a summoned deva, however.

I think this comic proves that Durkon and clerics in general are a bad influence to parties, when Durkon was not with the party, they had to plan, and did plan very cleverly to succeed, now that Durkon is back, all they planned was to make Haley and V invisible which was easily purged, and now they know that no matter what happens, Durkon can remove enchantments, curses, resurrect, etc.

I’m sure they have a plan. However they just made contact with the ennemy.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does Loki need a reason?

No.

Loki wanted the Talisman so Nale didn't.

Nale didn't what?

Hilgya could have made a deal with the IFCC, who also seem to have some influence still over the Linear Guild, and may even be manipulating Team Evil. We don't know all the ramifications, and would need a pretty impressive murder board and venn diagram hybrid to track all the intersections and links in the Stickverse.

Not sure how her devotion to Loki squares with cutting a deal with IFCC. Betting the under on that one.

I just want to complain again how badly named Mind Blank is

Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the term "drawing a blank" as it pertains to thinking of or remembering something?
Complaint noted, and rejected.

[Reboot]

Just out of curiosity, are you familiar with the term "drawing a blank" as it pertains to thinking of or remembering something?
Complaint noted, and rejected.

I am, yes. That's why I think the more logical use is to make a mind blank - i.e., unable to think or remember. Not the tortured justification that it makes it seem like you're mindless, but not really be.

[D.One]

I am, yes. That's why I think the more logical use is to make a mind blank - i.e., unable to think or remember. Not the tortured justification that it makes it seem like you're mindless, but not really be.

Mind Blank's name, AFAICRC, may have been inspired by and old psionic power/defense mode of the same name that was explained as "emptying one's mind" in order for defending oneself against mental attacks. This draws from mystic/martial arts tales of masters whose minds can be so peaceful and empty of thought that they can't be affected by mental powers.

It's not "make someone's Mind Blank", but instead "keep your Mind Blank".

[zimmerwald1915]

Nale didn't what?

Get the talisman, presumably.

Why Loki is supposed to care about whether a mortal can command outdated monsters is beyond me.

[D.One]

Get the talisman, presumably.

Why Loki is supposed to care about whether a mortal can command outdated monsters is beyond me.

Maybe the gods themselves (and even the Snarl) are outdated monsters, since they appeared many editions ago.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe the gods themselves (and even the Snarl) are outdated monsters, since they appeared many editions ago.

Unlikely, since by the very definition given in the comic, the monsters in that pit where monsters that never got an update in 3ed rules, and divine beings did get an update.

Grey Wolf

[Shoelessgdowar]

Well...Gary Gygax has a Bacon Number of 2 thanks to an appearance on Futurama. He's been in a comic with Roy, whose Bacon Number is therefore 3. So Hilgya's Bacon Number would be 4, as would most OotS characters aside from Roy's Archon. Unless someone with a lower Bacon Number showed up in OotS?

Funnily Enough, with at least a triple Bacon number of 2 (ie 2 via 3 different links) Fruit Pie would in fact be better than Gygax as a link to Kevin Bacon.

Plus Fruit Pie appeared in #91, while Gygax didn't appear until #536, meaning he established the Bacon # for the order 445 pages (or 3 books) sooner

[Elanorea]

Granted, they haven't used summon tactics before

Aren't we forgetting something?

[understatement]

The urge to see Roy chuck a weasel in the Exarch's face is very appealing for some unknown reason.

Wouldn't "Mind Shield" be more aptly named?

[zimmerwald1915]

Wouldn't "Mind Shield" be more aptly named?

Possibly. But I actually think "mind blank" is more evocative of a certain kind of mental discipline. You are able to avoid domination because the magic clears your mind, leaving a dominator nothing to latch on to.

[Keltest]

I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.

[Stiletto]

Fortunately, the Hold Person/Monster family of spells allow a full-round action each round to get a new save. They'll all get out of it eventually. Preferably, Durkon's spell remove paralysis can be used on the most important person first.

[Jannoire]

Fortunately, the Hold Person/Monster family of spells allow a full-round action each round to get a new save. They'll all get out of it eventually. Preferably, Durkon's spell remove paralysis can be used on the most important person first.

The most important one is the one with the highest Wis save... Roy

[Keltest]

The most important one is the one with the highest Wis save... Roy

Actually, its entirely possible that Elan has a higher will save than Roy, albeit not by much. If Roy had 18 wis and put some feats into boosting his will save, he just about breaks even with a bard's will save, after a potential wis penalty from Elan.

Of course, the Dashing Swordsman class might not have the same save progression as a bard, or might even suffer a will save penalty for dramatic moments (the hero never escapes while the villain is monologuing, for example), so its possible that Roy has the third highest save behind V and Durkon.

Of course, this is all moot because you actually want to burn the spells on the person least likely to break out on their own, unless you have reason to believe they will just immediately get hit with it again.

[mjasghar]

I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.

Didn’t you ever see the original Ghostbusters?
A more rounded reading of fantasy and the influences on d and d - 70s and 80s culture and American Renaissance fairs - is something any fantasy fan should have
It’s a shame so many younger fantasy fans have a contempt for the older stories (eg those who can’t stand the earlier discworld novels without realising its parody of Vance and d&d)

[Ezekiel]

Didn’t you ever see the original Ghostbusters?

This is exactly what I thought of too.

[zimmerwald1915]

Didn’t you ever see the original Ghostbusters?

The purple quiddity arose when Gozer asked the Dark One if he was a god, and the Dark One said "yes!"

(Gozer, of course, is a demigod of the Western Pantheon in the Stickverse.)

[dtilque]

It’s a shame so many younger fantasy fans have a contempt for the older stories (eg those who can’t stand the earlier discworld novels without realising its parody of Vance and d&d)

The city of Ankh-Morpork is a parody of or at least was based on Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar. However, according Morpork's Wikipage, Pratchett claims it was unconscious. Not sure I believe that. Fafhrd and Grey Mouser do have a cameo in Colour of Magic under different names,

[KorvinStarmast]

Mind Blank's name, AFAICRC, may have been inspired by and old psionic power/defense mode of the same name that was explained as "emptying one's mind" in order for defending oneself against mental attacks. This draws from mystic/martial arts tales of masters whose minds can be so peaceful and empty of thought that they can't be affected by mental powers.

It's not "make someone's Mind Blank", but instead "keep your Mind Blank".

Yeah, sounds very 1e psionics. Don't have that book with me at the moment. Zim said what I was going to say, but better, so Zim's take gets a solid +1 from me.

[Reboot]

Possibly. But I actually think "mind blank" is more evocative of a certain kind of mental discipline. You are able to avoid domination because the magic clears your mind, leaving a dominator nothing to latch on to.

All well & good in concept - but for that to work, it would basically have to turn a barbarian into a monk (personality wise) for the duration. And even the "fluff" text doesn't suggest that.

Actually, its entirely possible that Elan has a higher will save than Roy, albeit not by much. If Roy had 18 wis and put some feats into boosting his will save, he just about breaks even with a bard's will save, after a potential wis penalty from Elan.

Of course, the Dashing Swordsman class might not have the same save progression as a bard, or might even suffer a will save penalty for dramatic moments (the hero never escapes while the villain is monologuing, for example), so its possible that Roy has the third highest save behind V and Durkon.

Of course, this is all moot because you actually want to burn the spells on the person least likely to break out on their own, unless you have reason to believe they will just immediately get hit with it again.

It's also moot because there is at least one statement on panel that Elan has a worse will save than Roy (shortly before his death, Durkon says "weak willed" - as in those who would fall to Malack's dominating gaze - describes most of the Order, and wishes Mr Scruffy could just bring Roy. Straight away, that means Durkon thinks Elan & Haley both have Belkar-comparable will saves, while Roy's is good.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

He could also be again projecting his general attitude of "Lawful is strong, Chaotic is weak", which was one of the pillars of his characterization until this book. If we didn't have WoG that he's LG, I suspect much of the Playground would peg Durkon as LN.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Nale didn't what?

It sounds like Shoeless thought Loki considered the possibility of Nale getting control of an artifact which granted him control over a bunch of creatures without Will saves so dangerous that he would intervene to stop Nale from getting the talisman. By sending a cleric to help him get the talisman...

I can see what they were going for, but it isn't really intuitive IMO. Mind Blank brings to mind a paralytic absence of any thought more so than clarity of thought.

I'd expect the super-feeblemind spell you're describing to be called something more like "blank mind". And even then, I'd wonder why it wasn't called "erase mind" or "suppress mind" or something.

All well & good in concept - but for that to work, it would basically have to turn a barbarian into a monk (personality wise) for the duration.

Why? Mind blank lets you get the mind-clearing effect without the mental discipline of a monk, just like feather fall gives you the Slow Fall ability without that discipline, or finger of death gives you a ranged quivering palm without that discipline. Or, for that matter, like how a gauntlet lets you punch people good without that discipline, though to a lesser extent.

He could also be again projecting his general attitude of "Lawful is strong, Chaotic is weak", which was one of the pillars of his characterization until this book. If we didn't have WoG that he's LG, I suspect much of the Playground would peg Durkon as LN.

Eh...he's only the second-nicest member of the Order by virtue of being stuck with Elan. I'd peg Roy as LN before Durkon.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nah, Roy's broken way too many rules for that.