What would the OotS look like in 5e?

[Peelee]

Durkon* was an NPC villain worshiping the Goddess of Death. This seems like the definition of what the Death Domain in the DMG was designed for.



Agreed. I've personally argued for Redemption over Devotion for O-Chul, but it's not open and shut. Crown just doesn't fit him anymore than Ancients or Vengeance.

Before her fall, I'd say Miko is a toss-up between Crown and Vengeance, maybe leaning Crown. She's not NOT suitable for Devotion, but tenets like "Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm" certainly don't come naturally to her. Honestly, the Sapphire Guard that we see in Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar has A LOT of paladins sworn to the oaths of Vengeance and Crown. Hopefully Hinjo has been able to enact some reforms.

It's natural to peg Hinjo as Crown because, you know, he's wearing one, but I actually think Devotion suits what we've seen of him. He's very much "Law AND Good" as opposed to "Law IS Good".

Crown would make sense for prequel paladins.

Spoiler: Scar

Show

Ya know, being nobles, every last one, and all.

[Kish]

I don't quite remember that distress, but would I be wrong in assuming a certain amount of overlap in the constituency of that group and those that expected Tarquin to be the greatest general of all time, and were thus similarly distressed and/or in denial about his capabilities?

Grey Wolf

I can't actually say because the people who stood out the most as saying "Elan will be the leader now that Roy's dead" stopped posting entirely or almost entirely before 2011.

[2D8HP]

...Agreed. I've personally argued for Redemption over Devotion for O-Chul, but it's not open and shut. Crown just doesn't fit him anymore than Ancients or Vengeance....

I certainly agree that Vengeance (and also Conquest) are right out for O-Chul, but while he doesn't fit the image if a P-a-a-a-r-t-a-y!!! Oath of Ancients Paladin, I don't see him as actually breaking the Tenets of Ancients either, in many ways he's an exemplar of multiple Oaths (just not douche-bag Conquest and jerk Vengeance Paladins.

Speaking of that Oath, dig:

Tenets of the Ancients
The tenets of the Oath o f the Ancients have been preserved for uncounted centuries. This oath emphasizes the principles of good above any concerns of law or chaos. Its four central principles are simple.

Shelter the Light.
Where there is good, beauty, love, and laughter in the world, stand against the wickedness that would swallow it. Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren.

Preserve Your Own Light.
Delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art. If you allow the light to die in
your own heart, you can’t preserve it in the world.

Be the Light.
Be a glorious beacon for all who live in despair. Let the light of your joy and courage shine forth
in all your deeds.

Doesn't that sound like Elan?

[kiapet]

I've actually thought for a while that our 4 main Paladins would each fit with a different Paladin archetype:

Miko- Oath of Vengeance. Punishing evildoers is her complete MO

Hinjo- Pretty straightforward Oath of Devotion

O-Chul- Listen, the Oath of Redemption could have been written with him in mind. His backstory, the way he relates to the hobgoblins in the prequel, his actions with MitD, all of it screams "Paladin of Redemption"

Lien- This might be the most of a stretch, but I think she fits the Oath of the Ancients, what with her strong connection to the ocean and her cause of "rooting out evil from the dark crevasses in which it hides" and all that. Of course she could also be Oath of Devotion but that's less interesting imo

[Connington]

O-Chul doesn't seem like he'd be opposed to any of the tenets of the Oath of the Ancients, but he's too personally reserved to "delight in song and laughter, in beauty and art", and doesn't typically show the "light of joy" and all of that. He certainly hasn't shown himself to be artistically inclined, and his personality is stoic, businesslike, and occasionally resigned to grimness. It's just not the path that suits him, even if he'd gladly fight alongside such a paladin.

I don't think any of the Sapphire Guard is really OoA (That Oath is just really far from 3.5 paladins), but Lien probably comes the closest. She's lighthearted and humorous, always looks on the bright side (her city is gone and the Sapphire Guard are almost all dead, but her family all made it out alive!), and she's instinctively drawn to the beauty of the natural world underneath the sea.

Elan on the other hand, has the personality to be a great Paladin of the Ancients in some other lifetime. He might not be ST 13 if we're looking at this purely mechanically, but a lot of his character development is taking him in that more responsible and truly heroic direction, and he specifically loves grand stories.

[xroads]

Wouldn't all of the Sapphire Paladins be considered Oath of Devotion? They took the same oath, to protect the Sapphire Gate. Their execution of that oath varied from person to person, but the their underlying oath and tenets were the same.

Miko's execution of her tenets did probably lean heavily into vengeance. But then again, she did fall. She leaned too far from her tenants (and right into her liege with a sharp sword),

[Connington]

Wouldn't all of the Sapphire Paladins be considered Oath of Devotion? They took the same oath, to protect the Sapphire Gate. Their execution of that oath varied from person to person, but the their underlying oath and tenets were the same.

The literal oath of the Sapphire Guard doesn't have to be the same thing as the Sacred Oath of a Paladin (ie subclass) in 5e. The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide highlights three named Orders in the Forgotten Realms: One contains Crown and Devotion paladins "equally represented", in the second paladins "most often follow the Oath of Devotion, although a few zealots are followers of the Oath of Vengeance" and the third just says "many paladins of the order follow the Oath of the Crown". The Sapphire Guard already contains clerics in addition to its paladins, so presuming multiple valid Sacred Oaths isn't a stretch.

The Sapphire Guard of the prequels is shown to have drifted away from the "protect the innocent" side of paladinhood, in a way that suggests Oaths of Vengeance and Crown. And if the Oath of Conquest had been an option available to Gin-Jun, who knows if he would have taken it?

[2D8HP]

It occurs to me that the 5e optional rules allowing multi-classing preclude Belkar from picking up levels in Barbarian and Ranger unless he has a Wisdom of at least 13, which I don't think he has.

[Morgana]

I´d honestly say every paladin would be oath of devotion. It´s just that the big thing for each oath, even if there´s nothing mechanical behind it anymore, are the tenants, and in 3.5 every paladin except if you took a special alternate class followed the saem oath. While each paladin is wildly different, they each abide to the same rules and tenants, and the subclass that tries to replicate your run of the mill paladin is the oath of devotion

[Grey Watcher]

I've spitballed this before in my head with the following results:

ROY: Human Fighter (Battlemaster) X/Warlock 3 (Hexblade, Pact of the Blade). Not 100% on non-cantrip spell selection, because nothing really fits, but it's a rules-legal way to get him tossing and returning his sword with magic. Green Flame Blade and True Strike for Cantrips. Fiendish Vigor emulates the healing and Improved Pact Weapon so he doesn't have to fuss around with component pouches and focuses.

HALEY: Human Rogue (Thief), straight up, no frills

ELAN: Human Bard (College of Swords), really, what other college makes for stylish swordfighting quips?

DURKON: Mountain Dwarf Cleric (Tempest)

BELKAR: Lightfoot Halfling (for Stealth) Ranger (Hunter) X/Barbarian 2

(EDIT: There's a case to be made for swapping out Ranger for Rogue (Scout), though, which would keep him a non-caster. But I prefer to have him keep his "proper" class.)

VAARSUVIUS: Elf (you can make an argument for High for stat synergy, or Wood given that V's parents are established as Rangers in one of the books) Wizard (Evocation). No way I know of to emulate the barred schools, but it's still a simple enough build

O-CHUL: Human Fighter (Champion) / Paladin (Oath of Redemption). His origin story as a Paladin is rooted specifically in going to absurd lengths to avoid unnecessary violence.

HINJO: Human Paladin (Oath of the Crown). His whole thing is trying to balance being a good Paladin with being a good ruler.

MIKO: Monk (Kensei) up to 6 / Paladin of Vengeance. I mean, she's all about hunting down the evil-doers.

LIEN: Paladin of the Ancients (her origin story involves a fascination with the natural world, so this seems apt).

[Jannoire]

(To the distress and/or incomprehension of a number of people posting during Don't Split the Party who assumed that Elan would be the leader of the Order while Roy was dead--probably because he was the other human male.)

Or maybe, because of off the three that sailed with Hinjo, he was the only one fitting that Role. Durkon is too passive to be a leader, V was occupied with spell research...

[Kish]

Or maybe, because of off the three that sailed with Hinjo, he was the only one fitting that Role. Durkon is too passive to be a leader, V was occupied with spell research...

It's interesting that your argument for why people would expect Elan to be the leader when Roy died includes the post-Roy-death information that what Vaarsuvius actually did was fixate on spell research, but leaves out the post-Roy-death information that what Elan actually did was attach himself to Hinjo as a leader. Which strip would you be assuming these comments were posted during that would include knowledge of the former but not the latter?

[Wizard_Lizard]

Elan could even have a bit of oath of devotion paladin in him...
So he can add charisma to his attacks.

[Jannoire]

It's interesting that your argument for why people would expect Elan to be the leader when Roy died includes the post-Roy-death information that what Vaarsuvius actually did was fixate on spell research, but leaves out the post-Roy-death information that what Elan actually did was attach himself to Hinjo as a leader. Which strip would you be assuming these comments were posted during that would include knowledge of the former but not the latter?

My comments were mostly based on the facts, that both Durkon and V always deferred to Haley or Roy when it came to leadership, while Elan at least assumed leadership over thog, when they escaped from Cliffport.

[Quartz]

ROY: Human Fighter (Battlemaster) X/Warlock 3 (Hexblade, Pact of the Blade). Not 100% on non-cantrip spell selection, because nothing really fits, but it's a rules-legal way to get him tossing and returning his sword with magic. Green Flame Blade and True Strike for Cantrips. Fiendish Vigor emulates the healing and Improved Pact Weapon so he doesn't have to fuss around with component pouches and focuses.

Why bother? The magic is in the weapon, not Roy. He's a plain Battlemaster Fighter with a sword that's a Weapon of Legacy. It's demonstrated three spell powers - Greater Restoration, Healing many HP, and Negative Plane Protection - and one weapon power, Returning. The sword may also be an Undead Bane weapon.

[Kish]

I think "Roy's sword would do this for anyone else" would be a pretty big change.

[Quartz]

I think "Roy's sword would do this for anyone else" would be a pretty big change.

No one has said that but IMHO Roy's sword would likely do the same for another Greenhilt fighter.

[georgie_leech]

No one has said that but IMHO Roy's sword would likely do the same for another Greenhilt fighter.

Except for the Elf bit that fits a Moonblade pretty well.

[Sindeloke]

Re: banned lists, the chief motive behind banning teleportation is specifically as a plot contrivance to force the Order to suffer travel concerns - getting places Too Late, not being able to un-split the party easily, enduring mutiny on the Mechane, allowing Greg time to turn guards and summon worms - rather than employing efficient scry-and-die tactics.

Teleportation in 5e is nerfed all to hell and back, to the point that you'd still have to put up with most of that even if you were outright conjuror subclassed. You just can't reliably jump point to point over large distances this edition. There isn't any ability to mechanically ban V from conjuration, sure, but there's also no need. That one's a non-issue.

[xroads]

ROY: Human Fighter (Battlemaster) X/Warlock 3 (Hexblade, Pact of the Blade). Not 100% on non-cantrip spell selection, because nothing really fits, but it's a rules-legal way to get him tossing and returning his sword with magic. Green Flame Blade and True Strike for Cantrips. Fiendish Vigor emulates the healing and Improved Pact Weapon so he doesn't have to fuss around with component pouches and focuses.

I don't think the warlock levels are necessary. All signs currently point to the magic being a property of the weapon. I don't think he'd get the same effect from any other weapon.

[Grey Watcher]

Why bother? The magic is in the weapon, not Roy. He's a plain Battlemaster Fighter with a sword that's a Weapon of Legacy. It's demonstrated three spell powers - Greater Restoration, Healing many HP, and Negative Plane Protection - and one weapon power, Returning. The sword may also be an Undead Bane weapon.

I don't think the warlock levels are necessary. All signs currently point to the magic being a property of the weapon. I don't think he'd get the same effect from any other weapon.

My understanding is that Legacy Weapon Wielder was a Prestige Class Roy was taking. Since, barring literally a single Unearthed Arcana, PrC's aren't a thing in 5E, A Blade² Warlock seemed the next best thing.

Still the point does stand that these powers work ONLY with the Greenhilt Family Blade, while a Hexblade can (for some reason) just swap his bonded weapon out willy-nilly. Basically, neither solution is perfect, since the magic seems to arise out of the interaction between Roy and his sword, while modeling it with Warlock levels or a magic item each only involve one of those.

Basically, I went with the Hexblade solution because it's a little bit more interesting to me. Buy the other route is valid, too.

[Peelee]

My understanding is that Legacy Weapon Wielder was a Prestige Class Roy was taking. Since, barring literally a single Unearthed Arcana, PrC's aren't a thing in 5E, A Blade² Warlock seemed the next best thing.

Blade³ Warlock is exponentially better though.

[Grey Watcher]

Blade³ Warlock is exponentially better though.

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[Peelee]

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Naturally.

[Reboot]

My understanding is that Legacy Weapon Wielder was a Prestige Class Roy was taking.

It is not.

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure Roy's still a single-classed fighter.

[Morgana]

His powers first manifested during a fight, while normally as we saw with Elan, taking a prestige class is a conscious choice someone is making.

[Grey Watcher]

Naturally.

You live, eulern.

I'm pretty sure Roy's still a single-classed fighter.

His powers first manifested during a fight, while normally as we saw with Elan, taking a prestige class is a conscious choice someone is making.

Eh, I guess I just misinterpreted. Roy training to do the Spellsplinter Maneuver in the afterlife kinda blurred the line between actual, narrative-appropriate training, and just the game rules bit about such training getting retconned in.

Of course, we also have precedent for characters not being aware of (or perhaps simply forgetting about) their various abilities even as they still benefit from them.

EDIT: Also, Roy has been known to arbitrarily decide he suddenly wants internal narrative consistency for no real reason.

Like I said because I (apparently mistakenly) thought a Prestige Class was involved, I thought erring on the side of attaching the powers to Roy rather than the sword was the way to go. Plus, if you put all those powers into the weapon itself, you end up in a weird situation where it's suddenly more powerful and complex than the freaking Eye of Vecna (and yeah, this runs into the fundamentally different premises on which each edition is designed). It's also gets you pretty close to the intended suite of powers with a minimum of homebrew. (The Greenhilt Blade would have to be a built-from-the-ground-up homebrew magic item.)

Like I said, convincing argument to be made either way, but neither is, to my eyes, truly satisfactory. :shrug:

[PopeLinus1]

Elan is a college of swords IMHO. Let me just say, I love this subclass, it is absolutely brilliant, with the right specialization, it can be untouchable.

[Morty]

D&D has never really covered characters learning and gaining power or skill without levelling up, except for wizards scribing new spells - since they're wizards and therefore the best, duh. Roy unlocking the power of his family's heirloom sword is therefore not governed by any rules and would be equally ungoverned in 5E. But in the comic itself, it's been explained pretty clearly as him accessing them first through emotion and then through training.