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Thread: Themes of OOTS
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2019-04-16, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
Themes of OOTS
I just wanted to write down my thoughts on what I feel is an overarching theme in OOTS, I'd like to start by going a few disclaimers. First that this stuff might be really obvious or maybe not I dunno, and the other is that Rich tried saying a lot of different things with his books, and I'm not saying this is the only or even the main theme of the comic, hell some of the stuff here might not even be intentional.
I'd first need to clarify that OOTS is not a world of gray morality, even the author has said so and if you look at the comic it's clear that while some of the bad guys have deep motivations, at the end of the day there's still evil and good, there's no "is it morally justified to throw a sword at a baby?" Here.
That being said, the comic is not reductionary, on the contrary. Making sweeping statements based on labels has caused a lot of problems on the book. The only reason why Redcloak even exists is that a group of paladins thought goblin=evil, basically cause the monster manual said so.
There's also the case of Miko, she was a Lawful Good paladin, and her downfall was a reductionist mentality much similar to that of the paladins that killed Redcloak's family. She was very much of a cautionary tale of judging people by labels and making assumptions.
O-Chul makes contrast with Miko in the way he treated the monster in the shadows, while Miko immediately tried to destroy him while O-Chul could see beyond the label of monster and treat him for what he really is.
Another place we see this theme is in Belkar's character development, but in his case he applied that kind of thought to himself. He saw himself as nothing more than his CE alignment, all he can do is hurt people, and there's no point trying to be better cause that's all he is. His character developmebt came whwn he started at least pretending he had more depth than that, and wasn't just an alignment.
And then there's Tarkin, which had his whole viewpoint based on labels. To him everybody should fill their role in the story, he's in his eyes the big bad, so all he can do is oppose the hero, and Elan is the main character, so he has to express heroic qualities such as leadership and strength, Tarkin doesn't see anyone as actual people, but rather just as a label and a tool in service of a story.
So do you think I'm actually making sense here?
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2019-04-16, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
Close enough.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2019-04-17, 03:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
I think this is unfair to Miko. She only attacked the MitD when he mentioned he worked for Xykon, just like Belkar and Haley did (Belkar attacked; Haley couldn't have, as she was carrying Roy, but she didn't show any sign of objecting to it). Before that, she was firm but exquisitely polite to the MitD.
ungelic is us
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2019-04-17, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-17, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Themes of OOTS
The story doesn’t actually endorse black and white morality. It looks at how that plays out in d&d, where black and white morality is part of the rules. But it definitely pokes fun and points out inconsistencies.
Also it doesn’t make sense to compare Miko and O-Chul interacting with MiTD. Mike was trying to escape to warn Azure City of an impending attack and the MiTD tells her he works for Xykon and can’t let her leave. While O-Chul is locked in a box with no one else to talk to for months on end.
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2019-04-17, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
I'm going to add one that I think is present, and that's the futility of revenge.
Redcloak's entire arc is based on being stuck in a revenge plot, long past the point where the people who killed his mentor have themselves been killed. Now people want revenge on him, for taking revenge on those people, whom he wants preemptive revenge upon, so nobody can ever take revenge on him, but then someone will take revenge on... and it's an endless loop. The Gate maguffin plot is to get revenge on the world, on behalf of the goblinoids. RC has had no semblance of a normal life or healthy relationship, beyond his brother.Spoiler: SoDAnd we know how that turned out.
Roy managed to break out of the revenge plot that his dad laid on him, but first by dying during the course of seeking revenge. He then chose to give up the revenge cycle; his mission to oppose Xykon now is based on saving the world, not fulfilling his father's quest. So it's possible to put revenge aside for a positive goal. Of the two, I think we could argue Roy has the more healthy relationships and outlook, and the more functional team.
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2019-04-17, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
Throwing in a basic one here:
teamwork.
It's about trusting each other no matter the circumstances.
It's what drove the Scribble apart and what will drive Team Evil apart, but it's what makes the Order the team it is.
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2019-04-19, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
In the case of the Order, it's about trusting each other even though one of you is a CE murderer, another is an idiot, and a third is a greedy thief, so trusting them is kind if iffy but directing them towards evil is the way to go.
At least in the case of the Scribble they were all in the shallow or midpoint of the alignment pool. They just didn't trust each other because of their own stereotypes of each other: annoying (Serini), stick-up-ass (Soon), just wants to research spells (Dorukan), can't be trusted cause he's an illusionist (Girard),GRRR! (Kraagor)RIP, and neutral elf (Lirian).
And it's obvious that Team Evil is going to fall apart eventually, with two completely different viewpoints and even more different plans. Xykon started not trusting Redcloak when he got Tsukiko to be another set of hands and eyes, and Redcloak's never trusted Xykon.
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2019-04-19, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
Re: Themes of OOTS
Agree about teamwork. Team Evil is less a team and more two very evil people trying to use each other to get what they want, and one really oblivious guy who is actually good.
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2019-04-22, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
There is a meta theme about how not to police other party members' actions.
Spoiler
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2019-04-22, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-22, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-22, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
Three out of six members were Good: Lirian and Dorukan by word of Giant, Soon because he was a Paladin.
I'm especially curious where you got "neutral elf" from. Is that a pre-existing stereotype of elves? (I haven't played D&D for years so there's a lot I don't know about the game.)
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2019-04-22, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Themes of OOTS
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-04-22, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: Themes of OOTS
Good (capital G) people don't have to inherently trust each other. Alignment doesn't affect stuff like teamwork, friendship, or trust.
I mean, it could -- but that's the result of someone's personality, not the other way around.
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2019-04-23, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-23, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-23, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-24, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
Last edited by D.One; 2019-04-24 at 08:33 AM.
Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
(Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)
"I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"
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2019-04-24, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Themes of OOTS
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2019-04-24, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2019-04-24, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Themes of OOTS
No one's mentioned Power. A recurring theme of the comic is seemingly-stronger opponents being undone by their own overconfidence/stupidity, while their weaker opponents use creativity to exploit their weaknesses. See: Roy defeating Thog through his knowledge of architecture, Xykon being dealt a major blow with nothing but a familler and a 3rd-level spell, Redcloak taking out Tsukiko with a single class ability, Durkon overwhelming the vampire, ETC.
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2019-05-19, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-05-19, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
Remind me, where was this established? I'm sure it was, somewhere and at some point, but for the life of me I can't remember.
Never mind, found it. Still, if it had to be spelled out on the forum, it was hardly "blatant" before that point.Last edited by zimmerwald1915; 2019-05-19 at 10:05 AM.
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2019-05-19, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
It was a topic on Neutral characters in general, and The Giant stepped in with a list of some Neutral characters in the comic. Lirian was mentioned exactly once before his post, when one person cited her as an example of NG, which no-one questioned.
So, no idea where this "had to be spelled out" is coming from.
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2019-05-19, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-05-20, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Themes of OOTS
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2019-05-20, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-05-20, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-05-20, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Themes of OOTS
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II