Forgotten Realms and Breaking the Pact Primeval

[Chaosmancer]

So, I've been playing with a new DM in a campaign set in the Forgotten Realms and I'm just curious about some realms lore.

The DM had us investigating some strange deaths. Something was killing off wizards in Neverwinter. We just recently got handed the answer to that problem, when we were accidentally teleported to the Nine Hells. Following behind us was one of the Reapers meant to gather souls, carrying the soul of the High Priest of Kelemvor to drop him off in the 4th layer of Hell.

We've gotten confirmation from both Belial and Mammon that they knew, if not authorized, people to be killed and their souls stolen and taken to Hell illegally.

Frankly, I'll remind people, brand new DM in his first campaign. We should be dead many times over by this point. But, we got the souls and are booking it out of Hell the long way.

Here's my question. This series of events means that the Pact Primeval is broken, by the Devils. My paladin is planning on reporting this to Helm, Tyr, and Kelemvor the second we exit the Hells. This is apocalyptic levels of OH CRAP as far as I am concerned. Could it possibly be worse than I imagine? Because, this means that the power of Hell is broken, Asmodeus no longer owns any of it and they are no longer allowed to draw power from torturing souls. They aren't even allowed to torture souls anymore.

Right?

[Rukelnikov]

Wait till the Tanar'ri hear about it, then all Abyss will break loose :P

[Naanomi]

It depends a lot on what edition lore you are accepting; but I wouldn’t think it would have such cosmological effects. The gods and powerful entities of Law would probably take advantage of the opportunity to turn against the Devils in some ways, but planes largely get to choose who is in charge of them without outside entities getting a lot of say in it... and Baator (to some degree anyways) accepts Baatezu to run the show

[PhantomSoul]

It could also be that the DM -- intentionally or not -- views the lore differently from what the official version is, so the campaign is "spatially" set in a Forgotten Realms, but perhaps it isn't "cosmologically" set in any version of the Forgotten Realms and is just inspired by the Forgotten Realms's cosmological lore. It would be worth checking with the DM what assumptions you should make (or, at least, what your characters would know/think)!

[JackPhoenix]

It's politics... Asmodeus will claim "the culprits acted without my approval or knowledge, I'll punish them accordingly, or maybe even give them to you for punishment as a sign of good will". Are the gods willing to call him out on it? What Asmodeus is or isn't allowed to doesn't matter if they don't walk in there and kick him out. Are they willing to do that, and let the demons weak havoc everywhere? Or will they warn him to not let something like that happen again, and just let him continue as before otherwise?

Also, do the PCs really believe *devils* are telling them the truth about what's going on? That it isn't just part of some convulted plot? That they aren't playing right into their claws when they go tattle to gods?

And speaking of a new DM, is the DM even aware of the Pact and all that stuff?

[Man_Over_Game]

It could also be that the DM -- intentionally or not -- views the lore differently from what the official version is, so the campaign is "spatially" set in a Forgotten Realms, but perhaps it isn't "cosmologically" set in any version of the Forgotten Realms and is just inspired by the Forgotten Realms's cosmological lore. It would be worth checking with the DM what assumptions you should make (or, at least, what your characters would know/think)!

This is my opinion. Don't make any assumptions without asking your DM (your True God) about how your god's beliefs would play into these events, and how you'd expect your church to act. They might just be all "Eh, Evil doing Evil. Same stuff, different day".

[Chaosmancer]

It could also be that the DM -- intentionally or not -- views the lore differently from what the official version is, so the campaign is "spatially" set in a Forgotten Realms, but perhaps it isn't "cosmologically" set in any version of the Forgotten Realms and is just inspired by the Forgotten Realms's cosmological lore. It would be worth checking with the DM what assumptions you should make (or, at least, what your characters would know/think)!

All signs point to him setting things as close to the Forgotten Realms/Planescape stuff as he can. He's very new to the lore, and there are often points he doesn't know, but he tries to match the official lore as much as possible instead of changing it.

It's not like this game just started, we've been going for about a year. Just that we recently ended up in Hell.

It's politics... Asmodeus will claim "the culprits acted without my approval or knowledge, I'll punish them accordingly, or maybe even give them to you for punishment as a sign of good will". Are the gods willing to call him out on it? What Asmodeus is or isn't allowed to doesn't matter if they don't walk in there and kick him out. Are they willing to do that, and let the demons weak havoc everywhere? Or will they warn him to not let something like that happen again, and just let him continue as before otherwise?

Also, do the PCs really believe *devils* are telling them the truth about what's going on? That it isn't just part of some convulted plot? That they aren't playing right into their claws when they go tattle to gods?

And speaking of a new DM, is the DM even aware of the Pact and all that stuff?

Yeah, If figured the politics answer might go out, but A) I'm not sure it would matter per a RAW FR universe, and B) No one will believe it. Especially since, after Belial pretty much said "Yeah, I'm doing that" we ended up talking to Mammon, who said "Yeah, I know, and I'm going to get money from it, so why do I care". If the pattern continues with Dispater a full third of the Archdevils were aware... and Asmodeus, that guy, had no clue that more souls were coming in that were supposed to.

And, I don't know if they'd have to kick them out. The Pact itself is an object of power, and part of that power is in enforcing Devil Contracts and laying out the boundaries of the Nine Hells. Without it... Asmodeus doesn't own Baator. It is not his plane of existence anymore. And every Devil Contract might be made null and void of the Pact is called null and void. Cut off from their source of power and with the walls and rules of their realm no longer defending them... they'd be wiped out within a few years. The gods might have to intervene and set up a base simply to contain the demons who'd pour through Baator like a plague.

I thought about the "isn't this some convoluted plot thing" but A) doesn't fit with this DMs style, and B) we have overwhelming proof of the act. The very stolen souls themselves, and confessions from two Archdevils. Witnessed by a Paladin and their entire courts. So the plot would have to be "we break the Pact Primeval" which... leads to the problems I'm theorizing.

As to him being aware. I'm pretty sure he is. He's been pulling from the Fiend Folio to populate Hell, so he's read that a least, and since this first started I've mentioned them breaking the Pact Primeval a few times. I also plan on PMing him once we are closer to the surface and I'm about to report to the Gods. To make sure we are on similar pages.

This is my opinion. Don't make any assumptions without asking your DM (your True God) about how your god's beliefs would play into these events, and how you'd expect your church to act. They might just be all "Eh, Evil doing Evil. Same stuff, different day".

Yeah, like I said, he's been trying to stick to RAW pretty closely.

Also, since this is the second time an opinion like this has been raised, I wonder if my intent with this thread wasn't very clear.

Whatever my DM ends up going with (hopefully not a mere 'meh, evil folk breaking the very laws that prevent he gods from wrecking them and starting over, who cares') is going to be fine by me. I'm not looking to prove if he is right or wrong, or tell him exactly what should happen over this. Obviously, I got opinions, but it is his game.

What I want is more of a "OH crap, this is coming down the line, what do you think could happen from these sort of shenanigans" type of discussion. I've never even considered the Pact being broken by the denizens of Hell, and I'm just really curious how something like that might be handled within the RAW Forgotten Realms.

Kind of like all those videos about blowing up all the world's nukes in one place. Not like we are going to, but man, what would happen if we did.

[JackPhoenix]

RAW Forgotten Realms

Well, here you go. In RAW Forgotten Realms, Pact Primeval isn't a thing, because FC2 isn't FR sourcebook. Even ignoring that, it's only one of the many Asmodeus's conflicting backstories, not necessarily the true one.

[Unoriginal]

There is no "Pact Primeval" in 5e.

Devils don't get power from torturing souls, they just torture people (dead or alive) because they're sadists.

Also if any Devil broke a Pact like that they'd instantly turn to dust.

[DrKerosene]

There is no "Pact Primeval" in 5e.

Devils don't get power from torturing souls, they just torture people (dead or alive) because they're sadists.

Also if any Devil broke a Pact like that they'd instantly turn to dust.

That’d be because of the Ruby Rhod, right? No wait, the Ruby Rod.

I figured torturing evil souls was a fantastical metaphor for the breaking down of people during boot camp. You know, turning “fresh recruits” (petitioners) into “real soldiers” (Lemures).

Also, there was some unnamed contract that Asmodeus writes up before his big trial with angels and Primus, which the angels agree to after reading. Seems kind of brushed under the rug, but it seems to still exist.

[Unoriginal]

That’d be because of the Ruby Rhod, right? No wait, the Ruby Rod.

Yep.

I figured torturing evil souls was a fantastical metaphor for the breaking down of people during boot camp. You know, turning “fresh recruits” (petitioners) into “real soldiers” (Lemures).

Nope, they just like torturing. The souls of mortals are turned into Lemures when they're dipped in the Styx, destroying their memory and basically everything they ever were save from some hints of their biggest vice. This happens to all the lawful evil mortals whose soul reach the afterlife without being claimed by an entity (notably, some Devils like Mephistopheles prefers keeping the soul intact for mortals who signed up with them and who'd be more useful or entertaining like that).

In fact, just to show how much the Pact Primeval doesn't exist in 5e, several devils, notably the Hellfire Engine, have the power to throw the souls of people they kill into the Styx, turning them into Lemures regardless of alignments or gods having claims on said soul.

So what OPis talking about happens semi-regularly.

Also, there was some unnamed contract that Asmodeus writes up before his big trial with angels and Primus, which the angels agree to after reading. Seems kind of brushed under the rug, but it seems to still exist.

Pretty sure it was just a regular "we agree to follow the judge's judgement" deal.

[Chaosmancer]

Well, here you go. In RAW Forgotten Realms, Pact Primeval isn't a thing, because FC2 isn't FR sourcebook. Even ignoring that, it's only one of the many Asmodeus's conflicting backstories, not necessarily the true one.

Wait, then what's the origin of the Nine Hells and the Blood War in FR? I thought they shared that lore.

There is no "Pact Primeval" in 5e.

Devils don't get power from torturing souls, they just torture people (dead or alive) because they're sadists.

Also if any Devil broke a Pact like that they'd instantly turn to dust.

There isn't? I thought Mordenkainen's makes mention of it in the Blood War chapter (My book is in my car and it is raining outside, so I can't double check right now)

In fact, just to show how much the Pact Primeval doesn't exist in 5e, several devils, notably the Hellfire Engine, have the power to throw the souls of people they kill into the Styx, turning them into Lemures regardless of alignments or gods having claims on said soul.

So what OPis talking about happens semi-regularly.

Oh, true, I'd forgotten about those things. Though I thought it was just the Engine and the Hell Knight who had that "instantly destroy a target" abilities. That sort of stuff is super nasty.

[JackPhoenix]

Wait, then what's the origin of the Nine Hells and the Blood War in FR? I thought they shared that lore.

Eh, I don't really know or care. Hells propably always existed, and Blood War usually had its origins in the Great War of Law and Chaos, but that stuff tends to change every time a new edition is released. But Pact Primeval wasn't mentioned outside single obscure book in a single edition, and that book (FC2) wasn't set in any specific setting (though Grewhawk is most likely, as it mentions st. Cuthbert (though it gives him different backstory) and Greyhawk-but-not-really is the background setting for 3.5e as a whole).

There isn't? I thought Mordenkainen's makes mention of it in the Blood War chapter (My book is in my car and it is raining outside, so I can't double check right now)

Nope, not a word. Not that it would matter for FR, as MToF isn't FR sourcebook either.

[Naanomi]

Forgotten Realms exists in the Great Wheel Cosmology (in 2e and by all appearances 5e) so would share the same Blood War setting dressing

[JackPhoenix]

Forgotten Realms exists in the Great Wheel Cosmology (in 2e and by all appearances 5e) so would share the same Blood War setting dressing

Not really. FR Asmodeus is god, generic Great Wheel Asmodeus isn't.

[Unoriginal]

Not really. FR Asmodeus is god, generic Great Wheel Asmodeus isn't.

No? Both Asmodei are gods. The DMG and Mordenkainen's make that pretty clear.

[JackPhoenix]

No? Both Asmodei are gods. The DMG and Mordenkainen's make that pretty clear.

I don't see any mention of Asmodeus being a god anywhere in MToF.

[gkathellar]

No? Both Asmodei are gods. The DMG and Mordenkainen's make that pretty clear.

Asmodeus is a step down from a god in terms of personal power, and arguably a step up in terms of importance and practical influence. There are lots of gods, but there is only one Lord of the Nine.

[Chaosmancer]

Asmodeus is a step down from a god in terms of personal power, and arguably a step up in terms of importance and practical influence. There are lots of gods, but there is only one Lord of the Nine.

Side Tangent:

This is why in my Homebrew materials, I've been getting rid of "Evil" gods. The only reason we need a god of brutal murder instead of just having it be a demon lord seems to be power levels, but if the demon lords and gods are pretty close in power, same with the Archdevils and the Fey Queens and the Primal Spirits, then I don't need to come up with a reason why something whose entire premise is "betray and kill things" has a large enough following of worshippers to be a serious threat on the world stage.

My partial exception to that are some of the Great Old ones, they are just terrifying since they kicked the humans and their gods out of one world and into this one.

[Envyus]

The Monster Manual states that Asmodeus has the power of the Lesser God, and FR Materials state that he is a god there.

There is no "Pact Primeval" in 5e.

Devils don't get power from torturing souls, they just torture people (dead or alive) because they're sadists.

Also if any Devil broke a Pact like that they'd instantly turn to dust.

Devils do get power from torturing souls. Though they do it the Lemures that manifest for power, before sending them into the dreg legions.

[Millstone85]

The Monster Manual states that Asmodeus has the power of the Lesser God, and FR Materials state that he is a god there.

And the "lesser" part can pretty much be ignored, because 5e's notion of a greater deity involves being beyond mortal understanding, removed from mortal affairs, and not embodied anywhere in the planes, making it IMO synonymous with what previous editions called an overdeity.

[JackPhoenix]

The Monster Manual states that Asmodeus has the power of the Lesser God, and FR Materials state that he is a god there.

MM is also wrong in that same sentence. "Asmodeus is the supreme ruler of all devils, and the only creature in the Nine Hells with the powers of a lesser god." Yet according to MM, Tiamat also dwells in Hells, and she actually explicitly *is* a lesser god, while Asmodeus has powers of a lesser god, but he's not mentioned as one anywhere else in the MM or in any "setting-neutral" material. Unlike Asmodeus, Tiamat is also listed as a god in the PHB.

There's no doubt that Asmodeus is a god in FR.

[Naanomi]

In Great Wheel cosmology, if one is a God in any world they are a God (though may not have access to their God-powers on some Primes where they are not worshiped)

If Asmodeus is a God on Toril, and Toril is a crystal sphere on the Prime Material Plane of the Great Wheel, he is a God

[JackPhoenix]

In Great Wheel cosmology, if one is a God in any world they are a God (though may not have access to their God-powers on some Primes where they are not worshiped)

If Asmodeus is a God on Toril, and Toril is a crystal sphere on the Prime Material Plane of the Great Wheel, he is a God

[Citation needed]. And no, 2e material doesn't count, we're talking about 5e. Otherwise, I can point at 4e lore of Asmodeus throwing planes around and pre-4e where he explicitly wasn't a god.

[Naanomi]

[Citation needed]. And no, 2e material doesn't count, we're talking about 5e. Otherwise, I can point at 4e lore of Asmodeus throwing planes around and pre-4e where he explicitly wasn't a god.

I mean... now that we are back on the Great Wheel, with all the main settings back on the shared Prime and most of the Gods in the Outer Planes... what is the alternative to ‘a God is a God, even if they don’t have influence on a particular world’?

[Millstone85]

I mean... now that we are back on the Great Wheel, with all the main settings back on the shared Prime and most of the Gods in the Outer Planes... what is the alternative to ‘a God is a God, even if they don’t have influence on a particular world’?

I am not for it, but I think the alternative is to deny the shared multiverse.

Also, allow me to express my disapproval at your use of "a God".
It is "a god", "the gods", "oh God".

[Composer99]

Capitalising certain nouns when writing about authorities in the abstract is somewhat archaic, but is perfectly acceptable English. It's still commonly used in formal political or legal parlance in Westminister system polities (e.g. "the Government", "Crown prosecutors", and the like).

Edit to add: OP, I concur with suggestions to discuss out-of-game with your DM if you think your DM might be stumbling unawares into a major setting upheaval, assuming based on your description that your DM hews closely to published setting lore, and assuming the Pact Primeval is a crucial part of 5e Forgotten Realms setting lore.

[Unoriginal]

Side Tangent:

This is why in my Homebrew materials, I've been getting rid of "Evil" gods. The only reason we need a god of brutal murder instead of just having it be a demon lord seems to be power levels, but if the demon lords and gods are pretty close in power, same with the Archdevils and the Fey Queens and the Primal Spirits, then I don't need to come up with a reason why something whose entire premise is "betray and kill things" has a large enough following of worshippers to be a serious threat on the world stage.

My partial exception to that are some of the Great Old ones, they are just terrifying since they kicked the humans and their gods out of one world and into this one.

The difference between evil gods and entities such as demon princes and archdevils isn't a question of power level, but of nature.

A god of violent murder may be chaotic evil, but they would *not* be created by the Abyss as demons are nor would they have the demons' quirks and mindsets. And they wouldn't gain power ramdomly like demons, they'd get it depending on the worship they get. This god could be weaker than a Demom Prince due to insufficient worship, too. Last but not least, they could grant spells to Clerics, have a Domain(s) of influence, and be impossible to kill unless their foe has a divine spark on their own in one way or another.

Point is, they're not the same kind of threats.

Of course it's possible to be both a god and a demon prince.

Ultimately, though, it's true that the distinction between classes of entities should only exist if you like it.

[Naanomi]

I am not for it, but I think the alternative is to deny the shared multiverse.

Also, allow me to express my disapproval at your use of "a God".
It is "a god", "the gods", "oh God".

Feel free to express disapproval, I actually prefer the Planescape term ‘Powers’ (which is sometimes capitalized and sometimes not) but that seems to have disappeared with 2e/3e

[Chaosmancer]

Edit to add: OP, I concur with suggestions to discuss out-of-game with your DM if you think your DM might be stumbling unawares into a major setting upheaval, assuming based on your description that your DM hews closely to published setting lore, and assuming the Pact Primeval is a crucial part of 5e Forgotten Realms setting lore.

Yeah, I talked to him again. We got a chance to send the Souls in question with a celestial ahead of us exiting the Hells so it came up again.

Big difference between what I was seeing and what he's thinking is that he's basing a lot of this off the real world. So, to him, the Pact Primeval is no more binding than the Geneva Conventions...

We discussed a bit more, and that's our only major difference but its a big difference seeing legal contracts and magically binding contracts are pretty different.