Fell Energy Spell - For the copperpinching Necromancer wanting buff undead

[Oberron]

While the Metamagic feat Fell Energy spell (from Dragon Compendium) is sometimes talked about, mostly for increasing HP to undead, I notice it isn't listed in some of the more popular Necromancer guides for buffing your army of undead. I'll also add personal buffs later for those who play undead PCs who want to be the rock-star instead of the band manager.

What is it?

Fell Energy Spell - Any numerical bonus granted by a spell modified with this feat increases by +2 for all undead creatures it affects. This increase does not apply to factors such as range, save DC, healing, or other numerical factors relating to a spell. Only effects described as bonuses gain this benefit. A fell energy spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.

In short this takes the numerical bonus listed on a spell that would affect an undead creature and gives it a +2, but the effect has to be listed as a bonus in the description.

Why is it good?
If you don't want to spend most your wealth on gear for your undead and if the DM isn't giving you great bodies to turn into undead, this is a good way of providing extra to-hit, damage, AC and the most popular use HP/HD, but the spell you use pretty much has to use the word 'bonus' for it to work, and there are some spells that work better than others with this.
You can also use DMM if you want to make this "free" since it is just a +1 if you're a cleric or other cheese, its still good even if you don't decrease the cost.
There are also a lot of different types of bonuses out there, enhancement, AC bonuses (of different kinds), save bonuses, profane, sacred, etc. Any of these, is pretty much fair game for Fell energy spell as long as the undead is able to gain some bonus from the spell either directly as the target, or indirectly from other spells.

Why don't other big necromancer guides mention this?
The source is from dragon magazine and this can be found in the Dragon compendium. Some DMs allow stuff from this book others do not. DM allowance will vary.

Not all spells are equal, some are more equal than others.
So you want to use this on things that buff their stats right? Well not so much. Lets take bull's strength as an example, it goes from +4 str to +6, which translate to +3 hit and +3-+4 melee damage depending if two-handing weapon or not. Its a 2nd level spell and last 1min/lvl. Now take a look at magic weapon, first level spell and last same amount of time. It goes from +1/+1 to-hit/damage to +3/+3, for the same spell level of bull's strength normally you get. Now if you don't have corpsecrafter bull's strength is alright, but you better have corpsecrafter and the str bonus from it is enhancement so a fell energy bull's strength is only giving you a +2 bonus making that +3/+3-+4 into more of a +1/+1-+2, while magic weapon still rocking the +3/+3 and makes the weapon count as magic.

Okay, so what spells are good with this?
For this section we will talk about typical spells that will be used in your early necromancer life for buffing undead. I'll be going through a few common necromancers base classes, uncommon necromancer base classes that can buff well and their spell list starting with the SRD and will add more through different and more obscure sources deeper into the guide when i get the time. All the spells with refer to what lvl they are normally (lvlx) and will talk about their effects as if fell energy spell was used with it.

But some spells don't target the undead! This means FES doesn't work right?
FES will work regardless of what the target is as long as an undead creature is gaining a bonus from the spell. There has already been a thread focusing on this point and aside from arguments that boil down to "nu-uh because I said so" there has not been any RAW argument that works against it. As for proving that it does work with spells that don't target the undead but still affects them we just have to look at the spell desecrate as proof. The target of the spell is an area and the area grants many bonuses for undead that are made in it or standing in it. It is a very popular choice to use with fell energy even though it doesn't target. We can even look into the RAW for FES to show that the spell doesn't have to target. Any numerical bonus granted by a spell modified with this feat increases by +2 for all undead creatures it affects. No where in the feat does it say the spell has to target the undead, but it does say the bonus has to affect the undead. If you have any arguments or RAW that shows otherwise please use either the thread that was made HERE or make a new thread and PM me about it.

Cleric SRD spell list:

Lvl 1:
Magic weapon - +3/+3 to-hit/damage.
Magic stone- 3 magic rocks/sling bullets with +3/+3 that deals 1d6+3 damage or 2d6+6 vs enemy undead. Last 30 mins, this is fantastic for early game range undead.
Protection from xxx - +4 deflection and +4 to saves vs the alignment type is really solid but it being 1min/lvl can be a trouble at early levels.
Shield of faith- +4 deflection AC an additional +3 to the bonus for every six levels.
Lvl 2:
Desecrate - While the common use is for the +6 HP/hd(which is really good), don't be afraid to use this for combat as well (especially when you have a portable altar) because it will give a +6! profane bonus on to-hit/damage/saves for your undead in a 20ft area for multiple hours per level but its in an area. Use this for skeleton archers with compound bows and have fun destroying creatures.
Lvl 3:
Magic vestments- +3 enhancement bonus PER 4 CL and it last 1hour/Clvl. This is fantastic with CL cheese (like reserves of strength) because that simple leather armor/shield (or both!) get into effectively epic lvl bonuses fast.
magic circle against xxx- this one is odd because even though it is a circle on the ground the effect says it has 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature. its an AOE protection spell.
Lvl 4:
magic weapon greater - +3 enhancement bonus/4 CL.

wizard/sorcerer SRD spell list:

Lvl 1:
Mage armor- +6 ac at hour/lvl is good for nearly any time and last longer than protection from xxx.
protection from xxx- see above with the cleric but with mage armor at same lvl Mage armor is better for ac bumping.
magic weapon- See cleric entry
Lvl 3:
Haste- Extra attack, +3 on attack rolls, dodge ac, and reflex saves is nice most effective for range undead unless they are already in combat so you don't waste a round of extra attacks but still good on melee.
magic weapon,greater- See cleric entry
Magic circle against xxx- See cleric entry.

Dread necromancer:
Aside from the special spells the dread Necromancer gets to add to their list the DN gets nothing from the base kit to buff their undead. Unless I missed something which i might have. A bit of a shame but not a total loss as DNs are still really good.

Artificers
Note: While artificers are already really dang good at whatever they want by breaking the WBL their infusions are also perfect targets for FES since most of them are buffs and some unique ones at that. While they aren't normally necromancers they can fake it enough to make it or if you are an undead artificer make yourself even more beefy. Being able to make any wand/staff of XXX spell then adding fell energy MM with an infusion means the artificer can do anything and everything all the other list can do.

Infusions:
Lvl 1:
Magic stone- See cleric.
Magic vestment- See cleric. But notice its a lvl1 infusion instead of lvl3 which makes it come online a lot sooner.
Magic weapon- See cleric.
Metamagic scroll- This is a special mention since this can apply FES to a scroll, not a bad way to circumnavigate the +1 spell slot.
Resistance- +3 to saving throws to start with another +3 per 4 caster levels. And at 10mins/CL This will last a good while if you think your minions will need this.
Shield of faith- See cleric.
Lvl 3:
Magic weapon, greater- See cleric but note it is a lvl lower than the cleric gets it at.
Metamagic Item- This gets a special note since it can apply to any spell trigger item not just scrolls. Eternal wands or staffs of buffs anyone?
Lvl 4:
Shield of faith,mass- See Cleric entry under the Spell Compendium secton.

Going into the Spell Compendium we get a lot more juicy spells!

Cleric:
Lvl 2:
Fuse arms- If you have Undead that have multiple sets of arms/tentacles normally, this spell can be a powerhouse. Giant Octopus for instance will gain +18 str with all its limbs fused into two tentacles, that is 38 str with 20ft reach.
Stone bones- +5 enhancement bonus to their natural armor for 10min/lvl really useful buff for AC stacking and makes it one short from iron bones, a lvl 4 spell.
Lvl 4:
Recitation- A AOE +4 luck bonus to AC,attack rolls, and saves and if you have any intelligent undead who worship the same detity as you it is a +5.
Lvl 5:
Shield of Faith, Mass- You get a shield of faith and YOU get a shield of faith! Mass shield of faith, for quick army buffing.

Sorcerer/Wizard:
Lvl 1:Targeting Ray- +3 insight per 3CL on ranged attacks on a target only 1round/lvl though but gets better the higher CL you are. Get em boys!
Nerveskitter- +7 to initiative helps if your DM doesn't just say your undead go at your turn, then you just use it on yourself anyway. Not the best use but is interesting of note.
Lvl 2:
Stone bones- See Cleric.
Lvl 3:
Mage armor,greater- +8 ac with hour/lvl or...
Mage armor, mass- You get a shield of faith mage armor! Mass shield of faithmage armor, for quick army buffing.
Incorporeal Enhancement- Don't leave out those shadows in the rain! This (for 24 hours!) will give 1 incoporeal undead/lvl the following +3 deflection to ac, +1d8+2HP, a +3 bonus to attack and +4 to turn resistance PER every five caster levels beyond 5th. This is the go-to buff spell for incorporeal undead.

[Oberron]

Other classes used for possible necromancer

This is for other classes that overlap either the wizard/Cleric with spells but have access to other spells they don't or other abilities that can be used to buff undead. Will be updated with more classes as either requested or stumble upon.

Archivist
To help a fellow gittper who brought up an interesting character concept with the Archivist who gets all the spells the cleric has but can also have access to any other divine list (with dm's permission). This list won't copy from the cleric list(unless not noted above or comes at a lower level) but will dive into other classes that have divine spells that could be used that on their own might not be good necromancers. This will be a mix of buffing yourself if you turn undead or minions which will be marked with either a (S) or (M).

Lvl 1:
Divine favor-Paladin/Cleric(S) +3 luck bonus to hit and weapon damage/3 CL
Golden Barding-Paladin Target is special mount but its hour/level and gives a set type of armor/bonus per group of CL of +6-+10 with FES.Double bonus is that is says it works with magic vestments!
Silverbeard-Paladin (S) Grow a magic beard for a +4 sacred bonus to AC and +4 dip bonus with dwarfs.
Crabwalk-druid/rng/brd (M) +6 on attack rolls when charging with no penalty to ac
Foundation of stone-Clr/druid (M) +4 to ac while subjects/CL don't move. Archer buff.
Shillelagh-druid (S) staff/club into +3 that is two sizes larger.
linked perception-rng(druidlvl2) (S/M) each undead get +4 to spot and listen for each other ally in the area. Unsure if minions count as allies per RAW but even if its just you as undead and 4 other party members that's +20 to spot/listen.
Lvl 2:
Crown of smiting-Paladin (S/M) hour/lvl or until discharged for a +4 divine damage bonus once per minute. You have to order your minions to use the ability.
Shield of warding-Paladin (S/M) min/lvl +3 sacred bonus on AC/reflex saves with another +3/per 5 CL.
Strength of stone-Paladin (S) +10 enhancement to STR as long as you don't move off the ground or move faster than your move speed. Witchking buff spell anyone?
Bite of the wererat-Druid (S) +8 dex, +4 con(oopse your undead!) +5 natural armor
Brambles-Druid/cleric +3tohit/damage per CL
Halo of sand-Druid/rng +3 deflection bonus to AC with +3/3CL
Lvl 3:Prayer-Paladin/Cleric (S/M) +3 luck bonus to attack rolls,
weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks while foes take a -1. Be the cheerleader you always wanted to be.
Righteous Fury-Paladin (S) 5temp HP/CL and a rare +6 sacred bonus to str for min/lvl
Weapon of the deity-Paladin/Cleric (S) +3-+7 enhancement bonus with the rare example of set bonus per caster level, but also comes with special bonuses depending on the god's weapon and alignment.
Bite of the werewolf-druid (S) +4 str, +6 dex, +6NA
Lvl 4:
Bite of the wereboar-druid (S) +6 str, +10NA
Claws of the savage-drd/blk/clr (M) +4 enhancement to-hit and damage and if it already has claws (skeletons!) the claw damage increases as if two sizes larger. 10mins/lvl good duration too.
Lvl 5:
Bite of the weretiger-druid (S) +14 str, +6dex, +7 NA
Wind tunnel-druid (M) +7 competence bonus on ranged attacks and doubles the range increments. really solid mass archer buff.

[Segev]

For you Necropolitans and Liches out there, spectral hand, amongst its other benefits, gives you a +2 bonus on the ranged touch attacks it enables. So this might be a viable choice for some self-buffing.



I'm looking through Necromancy spells in particular because a single Slaymate could let you apply Fell Energy Spell to them for free.

[Kayblis]

I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that the +2 bonus is added in every level gap for spells with "+1 for every X levels". Sure, a Magic Vestment giving 2+(1AC/4HD) is fine, but giving thrice the bonus for a +1 spell level adjustment just sounds wrong. In the same way, Greater Magic Weapon would create a +15 enchantment bonus by level 20, and could easily be chained much earlier than that.

[Oberron]

I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that the +2 bonus is added in every level gap for spells with "+1 for every X levels". Sure, a Magic Vestment giving 2+(1AC/4HD) is fine, but giving thrice the bonus for a +1 spell level adjustment just sounds wrong. In the same way, Greater Magic Weapon would create a +15 enchantment bonus by level 20, and could easily be chained much earlier than that.

It's no different than using it to gain +6 hp/HD from descrate with an alter. The bonus is a +1 and the feat increases the bonus to a +3, and an altar doubles the bonus to +6.

Besides most of those spells have a hard cap of +5 which is not a listed bonus so you just hit the cap much earlier. Now if you had reserves of strength then you can go much higher.

[Segev]

It's no different than using it to gain +6 hp/HD from descrate with an alter. The bonus is a +1 and the feat increases the bonus to a +3, and an altar doubles the bonus to +6.

The difference is that Fell Energy desecrate gives a +3 bonus, and having the altar in the area doubles the bonus. The Fell Energy magic vestment gives a bonus of +1 per four caster levels +2.

The bonus from desecrate on its own is +1. Fell Energy Spell adds +2 to that. Adding an altar doubles it.

The bonus from magic vestment on its own is +1, +2, +3, +4, or +5, depending on the CL. Fell Energy Spell adds +2 to that.

There's no external thing redoubling the bonus the way desecrate with an altar does.

[Oberron]

The difference is that Fell Energy desecrate gives a +3 bonus, and having the altar in the area doubles the bonus. The Fell Energy magic vestment gives a bonus of +1 per four caster levels +2.

The bonus from desecrate on its own is +1. Fell Energy Spell adds +2 to that. Adding an altar doubles it.

The bonus from magic vestment on its own is +1, +2, +3, +4, or +5, depending on the CL. Fell Energy Spell adds +2 to that.

There's no external thing redoubling the bonus the way desecrate with an altar does.

Even without the altar doubling the bonus it would still be +3/HD and not 2+1/HD correct?

Magic vestments on its own is a +1 that is added onto itself depending on caster level. It does not keep replacing it's own bonus, it does not state "this becomes a +2 at caster level 8" like other abilities say. Fell energy spell adds the +2 to any numerical that is a bonus.

[Segev]

Even without the altar doubling the bonus it would still be +3/HD and not 2+1/HD correct?

Magic vestments on its own is a +1 that is added onto itself depending on caster level. It does not keep replacing it's own bonus, it does not state "this becomes a +2 at caster level 8" like other abilities say. Fell energy spell adds the +2 to any numerical that is a bonus.

The "+X per HD" is kind-of a special case, because what it's saying is it's a bonus to the HD, rather than to hp directly. The CL-based bonus is not a bonus that is multiplied by CL, but rather a CL-dependent bonus.

Regardless, I think we're veering off-topic, here. I think it's plenty good enough even if Fell Energy magic vestment is "merely" a +3, +4, +5, +6, or +7, rather than a +3, +6, +9, +12, or +15. And even if you disagree, it is beside the point of "Fell Energy Spell is good; what spells can we find to add it to to do awesome things with undead?"

So I'll agree to disagree with you on this finer point, in favor of focusing on what's important: ways to abuse this feat.

So far, I've only really found some gems in PF's SRD; I'll need to get home to my books to see what the Spell Compendium can offer up. I don't know if PF spells are worth discussing when this is an already-obscure 3.5 feat, as-is. Opinions?

[Oberron]

The "+X per HD" is kind-of a special case, because what it's saying is it's a bonus to the HD, rather than to hp directly. The CL-based bonus is not a bonus that is multiplied by CL, but rather a CL-dependent bonus.

Desecrate clearly says it adds to the hit points per hd. It doesn't add to the HD directly and is irrelevant. It could say +1 to hit points per caster level and would still do +3hp/CL instead of +3hp/hd. All is caster level is telling us for magic vestments is how many times you gain the bonus not what the bonus becomes at certain caster levels.

Regardless, I think we're veering off-topic, here. I think it's plenty good enough even if Fell Energy magic vestment is "merely" a +3, +4, +5, +6, or +7, rather than a +3, +6, +9, +12, or +15. And even if you disagree, it is beside the point of "Fell Energy Spell is good; what spells can we find to add it to to do awesome things with undead?"

So I'll agree to disagree with you on this finer point, in favor of focusing on what's important: ways to abuse this feat.

So far, I've only really found some gems in PF's SRD; I'll need to get home to my books to see what the Spell Compendium can offer up. I don't know if PF spells are worth discussing when this is an already-obscure 3.5 feat, as-is. Opinions?

I'll get to pf spell eventually because I know there are some that are really good for undead buffing.

[Kayblis]

You cast Magic Vestment at CL 12, you get a +3 enhancement to AC. Fell Energy adds +2 to that. It's a conservative ruling to avoid loops and excesses based on different kinds of wording for similar effects. A +2 to-hit is a +2 to-hit, even if it's worded as "flat +2 bonus" or "+1 for each [condition you have 2 of]".

Good spells include Heroism, which would need a way to get around mind-affecting immunity, but gives bonuses on pretty much all d20 rolls. Resistance, Doom, Bless, level 0~1 spells with flat bonuses are great for this, as variants of the already mentioned Magic Weapon.

[Oberron]

You cast Magic Vestment at CL 12, you get a +3 enhancement to AC. Fell Energy adds +2 to that. It's a conservative ruling to avoid loops and excesses based on different kinds of wording for similar effects. A +2 to-hit is a +2 to-hit, even if it's worded as "flat +2 bonus" or "+1 for each [condition you have 2 of]".

Good spells include Heroism, which would need a way to get around mind-affecting immunity, but gives bonuses on pretty much all d20 rolls. Resistance, Doom, Bless, level 0~1 spells with flat bonuses are great for this, as variants of the already mentioned Magic Weapon.

Where can I find this conservative ruling and why do people not bring this up about using it with desecrate for extra health/HD? Do you think that desecrate gives +3hp/hd or is it 2+1/hd? And in the official 3.5 faq they(w.o.t.c) repeatedly state
"As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the“controller” of the effect."

Lets take Magic vestment at CL12 as you say, you get a +3 enhancement bonus to AC. That is the end result, but not how you get there, Magic vestment says "...+1 per four caster levels". So for each group of 4 caster levels you get a +1, now if you add the +2 to that +1 as stated in the feat it becomes a +3 per four caster levels. If magic vestment says " You gain +1 ac at four caster levels which becomes a +2 at 8 caster levels and when you get to 12 caster levels the bonus becomes a +3" it would be a different story because the spell is changing the bonus by a flat amount not adding onto itself which there are spells and abilities that do do this.

As Segev said this is getting off topic. If you want to talk about this further please make a new thread about it and i'll discuss it there with you.

[Segev]

One further bit of cold water: does this really apply to spells that target gear used by undead? Magic vestment, magic weapon, etc give bonuses to armor and weapons, and then it’s the armor or weapons that give the undead bonuses.

Magic fang definitely works, though. As does barkskin. And Incorporeal Enhancement.

For what little it’s worth, awaken undead grants a native +2 to turn resistance, which would become +4.

[Falontani]

Stone bones/iron bones?

[Oberron]

One further bit of cold water: does this really apply to spells that target gear used by undead? Magic vestment, magic weapon, etc give bonuses to armor and weapons, and then it’s the armor or weapons that give the undead bonuses.

Magic fang definitely works, though. As does barkskin. And Incorporeal Enhancement.

For what little it’s worth, awaken undead grants a native +2 to turn resistance, which would become +4.

Yes, because even though the spell is targeting another object the undead is still affected by the bonus FES only cares if the undead is affected, not a target. Once again we can look at the popular use of fell energy on desecrate to boost hp/hd, it doesn't target undead, but any summon or created gain the bonus.

As for enhancements like magic weapon the undead is still affected by it when it uses it to make an attack. If it wasn't then magic weapons of any + value are meaningless if the user doesn't gain their bonus.

Awaken undead will give +4 profane will to undead but the turn resistance is not described as being a bonus, even though it works like one.

Magic fang doesn't work unless some hoops are jumped through, the target for magic fang is living creature, same for barkskin.

Stone bones/iron bones?

Added stone bones but not iron bones because of its spell level and there are earlier level spells that give as much or more.

[Zaq]

Hmm. A weird side effect is that it'll increase bonuses to speed by 2, which is a number of feet that the game usually isn't willing to account for when discussing tactical movement. So fell energy expeditious retreat, for example, would increase your speed (if you're undead) by 32 ft.

When dividing, the game rules always say to round down, but is there an explicit rule that says you round down when determining the number of squares a movement effect that isn't a multiple of 5' lets you move? That's not quite the same thing as dividing. I know about the diagonal compromise where the first square is 5', the second square is 10', the third square is 5', etc., but that's not quite the same thing either, I think.

[Kayblis]

When dividing, the game rules always say to round down, but is there an explicit rule that says you round down when determining the number of squares a movement effect that isn't a multiple of 5' lets you move? That's not quite the same thing as dividing. I know about the diagonal compromise where the first square is 5', the second square is 10', the third square is 5', etc., but that's not quite the same thing either, I think.

Not at official ruling for the topic, but every time the system halves your speed for any reason, it tells you to round it down to the next 5ft increment. So a medium creature climbing moves 5ft per round, as 30ft divided by four is 7,5ft.

[Oberron]

Hmm. A weird side effect is that it'll increase bonuses to speed by 2, which is a number of feet that the game usually isn't willing to account for when discussing tactical movement. So fell energy expeditious retreat, for example, would increase your speed (if you're undead) by 32 ft.

When dividing, the game rules always say to round down, but is there an explicit rule that says you round down when determining the number of squares a movement effect that isn't a multiple of 5' lets you move? That's not quite the same thing as dividing. I know about the diagonal compromise where the first square is 5', the second square is 10', the third square is 5', etc., but that's not quite the same thing either, I think.

That's. .... pretty funny. I didn't even bother looking at that because I didn't think it was called a bonus but it is. It doesn't even help in cases that make you move at half speed either.

[Segev]

Another useful trick: Stitched Flesh Familiar makes your familiar undead (in addition to its replacement familiar benefit of +4 HD to your undead control cap). There are a number of self-buffs and even familiar-specific buffs which now gain +2 to the bonuses they grant when made Fell Energy Spells, whether by actually targeting the familiar or by using Share Spells to give the familiar a normally personal-range buff.

Depending on whether your DM rules you can stack Improved Familiar with Stitched Flesh Familiar (the latter feat does name 'the standard familiars listed in the PHB' or something to that effect, but Improved Familiar changes that list, so...), you can look into the Complete Warrior improved familiars for some really beefy ones you can transform into undead creatures with which you can share your personal-range buffs.

[Bphill561]

You cast Magic Vestment at CL 12, you get a +3 enhancement to AC. Fell Energy adds +2 to that. It's a conservative ruling to avoid loops and excesses based on different kinds of wording for similar effects. A +2 to-hit is a +2 to-hit, even if it's worded as "flat +2 bonus" or "+1 for each [condition you have 2 of]".

Good spells include Heroism, which would need a way to get around mind-affecting immunity, but gives bonuses on pretty much all d20 rolls. Resistance, Doom, Bless, level 0~1 spells with flat bonuses are great for this, as variants of the already mentioned Magic Weapon.

The feat Song of the Dead from the dragon compendium changes mind effecting spells to effect intelligent undead only. It no longer works on the living and it does not effect mindless undead. The level adjustment is +1.

[Endarire]

Fell Energy seemingly comboes well with Chain Spell/Ocular Spell for one set of builds and War Weaver for another.

[Oberron]

Fell Energy seemingly comboes well with Chain Spell/Ocular Spell for one set of builds and War Weaver for another.

How so? I'm not familiar with war weaver.

[Segev]

How so? I'm not familiar with war weaver.

War Weaver is a class in Heroes of Battle that allows you to create a sort-of network of allies you can buff at range. I forget if you can share spells amongst more of them than normal when doing so or not; it's been too long since I read it.

Now that I think about it - as a side thought - I wonder if the creator of the Vitalist for PF was inspired by the War Weaver, or if it was convergent design. The Vitalist does the schtick much better, but is healing/psionics only. ...I guess the Tactician is closer in purpose.

Anyway, what he's saying is that with Chain Spell the War Weaver can hit multiple undead at once with buffs. I think.

[Oberron]

War Weaver is a class in Heroes of Battle that allows you to create a sort-of network of allies you can buff at range. I forget if you can share spells amongst more of them than normal when doing so or not; it's been too long since I read it.

Now that I think about it - as a side thought - I wonder if the creator of the Vitalist for PF was inspired by the War Weaver, or if it was convergent design. The Vitalist does the schtick much better, but is healing/psionics only. ...I guess the Tactician is closer in purpose.

Anyway, what he's saying is that with Chain Spell the War Weaver can hit multiple undead at once with buffs. I think.

Looking at it, the class is a good way to save on spell buffs for undead if you make them part of the tapestry it won't let you cast them at range without the other feats posted but you get a lot more mileage from spells per day. I'm just imagine an old nice lady doing needle point and knitting sweaters with hearts and puppies on them for her undead.... and I now have my next character idea.

Creatures have to be living to be included into the tapestry. :(

[Segev]

Looking at it, the class is a good way to save on spell buffs for undead if you make them part of the tapestry it won't let you cast them at range without the other feats posted but you get a lot more mileage from spells per day. I'm just imagine an old nice lady doing needle point and knitting sweaters with hearts and puppies on them for her undead.... and I now have my next character idea.

Not that this isn't something I suggest for every necromancer ever, but the nice ol' granny does seem perfect for it: don't forget her "grandkids" that are adorable little slaymate urchins.

[Oberron]

Not that this isn't something I suggest for every necromancer ever, but the nice ol' granny does seem perfect for it: don't forget her "grandkids" that are adorable little slaymate urchins.

With the wizard varient that gives you a skeleton the granny can claim it's an ex husband she gets into arguments with still, while making brain meat pies for her zombie "helper boys" maggot lollipops for slaymate grandkids and a couple hell hounds for them to play with.

[Segev]

With the wizard varient that gives you a skeleton the granny can claim it's an ex husband she gets into arguments with still, while making brain meat pies for her zombie "helper boys" maggot lollipops for slaymate grandkids and a couple hell hounds for them to play with.

Why an ex-husband? Clearly, they're still married/reconciled.

[Oberron]

Why an ex-husband? Clearly, they're still married/reconciled.

Because til death do they part!

[Sleven]

Yes, because even though the spell is targeting another object the undead is still affected by the bonus FES only cares if the undead is affected, not a target.

False. The target is what's affected, nothing else. Just because you carry around a weapon affected by a spell does not mean you're affected by that spell. There is no logical ground for this argument to stand on.

[Segev]

False. The target is what's affected, nothing else. Just because you carry around a weapon affected by a spell does not mean you're affected by that spell. There is no logical ground for this argument to stand on.

My recommendation, rather than arguing about it, would be to mark the spells by what directly affects the undead and what affects items they're wielding, and let the DM sort it out at a given table. A guide - even a loose one like this thread - is best if it is flexible enough to be useful to multiple tables with different DMs and DMing philosophies.

[Oberron]

False. The target is what's affected, nothing else. Just because you carry around a weapon affected by a spell does not mean you're affected by that spell. There is no logical ground for this argument to stand on.

So a weapon with magic weapon cast on it does not give you a +1 to hit and damage?
Magic circle against x doesn't give people an ac bonus and desecrate does not give undead bonus to hit/saves/hp?

There are plenty of spells that affect things it does not target, this is how the entire artificer's infusions work.

If you want to make an argument about it make another thread and we can talk there.