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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    With weaker versions of the same conditions. So D&D still not having those weaker conditions is the obvious issue here.
    Exactly. But you don't need an official condition for each thing--each spell could simply describe what the "lesser" effect is, and it doesn't have to be identical between "similar" spells.

    Paralyzed/stunned -> half movement and no reactions for a turn OR can either act or move the next turn, not both OR ...

    Charmed -> disadvantage on attacks against the caster for a turn OR target will listen to the next thing you say without immediately going hostile OR ...

    I'd probably leave cantrips as no-effect (like an attack), because they're a resourceless thing. And you could calibrate the "lesser" effect vs the power of the spell if it hits--something like hold person would have a comparatively weak lesser effect, because it's a really strong spell. A weaker one might be more reliable. Instead of poisoned for a minute, it might be poisoned until the end of their next turn. Or for 1 attack.
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    This really is just about only a D&D problem...really a d20/3E/4E/5E problem.

    And even more so....well....it's not a game rule problem.

    It is a game play problem.

    And it really comes down to the simple way of thinking: Mundanes must be put down all the time, but magic must always be free.

    Just take the examples of:

    Anything happens to put a mundane character down....they can't fly, breathe underwater, teleport or whatever....basicaly they encounter something they can't handel with their mundane skills and powers.....and everyone just nods, agress with it and says ''yup mundanes suck".

    But....

    Even the vague suggestion that anything any how in any way might effect a magic character...again, they encounter something they can't handel with magic......and everyone yells and screams and complains and would never, never do that because it would be ''wrong".

    See the HUGE disconnect?

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Who is this "everyone" you speak of?
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

    Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.

    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippa the Pixie View Post
    This really is just about only a D&D problem...really a d20/3E/4E/5E problem.

    And even more so....well....it's not a game rule problem.

    It is a game play problem.

    And it really comes down to the simple way of thinking: Mundanes must be put down all the time, but magic must always be free.

    Just take the examples of:

    Anything happens to put a mundane character down....they can't fly, breathe underwater, teleport or whatever....basicaly they encounter something they can't handel with their mundane skills and powers.....and everyone just nods, agress with it and says ''yup mundanes suck".

    But....

    Even the vague suggestion that anything any how in any way might effect a magic character...again, they encounter something they can't handel with magic......and everyone yells and screams and complains and would never, never do that because it would be ''wrong".

    See the HUGE disconnect?
    It's not a d20 problem. It's a generic problem. Very few people can stretch their suspension of disbelief to let non-magical characters perform unrealistic feats. At best, they can believe "razor wind by slashing rapidly" or "shockwave from hitting the earth very hard". Nobody can believe nonmagical nonpowered flight - levitation by the sheer force of will or soul or mind without any magic. Nobody can believe that something that isn't an extension of someone's basic capabilities can be non-magical. Flying, teleportation, rapid healing that isn't personal regeneration, etc.

    Mundanes might be allowed to be superhumanly strong, durable, and maybe even fast/quick. Basic stuff, things people already have, but up to 11.

    But as soon as magic comes into equation, everyone's suddenly fine with it. "Oh, it's magic, it can do whatever". In the end, magic gets a carte blanche on doing something that people can't imagine a non-mage doing.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by banice View Post
    Or jumping really well
    In general, climbing and jumping really well works fine indoors - while I consider it reasonable for wizards to have an advantage outside. Although I've been known to simply do away with fly and teleportation spells entirely.

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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    It's not a d20 problem. It's a generic problem. Very few people can stretch their suspension of disbelief to let non-magical characters perform unrealistic feats. At best, they can believe "razor wind by slashing rapidly" or "shockwave from hitting the earth very hard". Nobody can believe nonmagical nonpowered flight - levitation by the sheer force of will or soul or mind without any magic. Nobody can believe that something that isn't an extension of someone's basic capabilities can be non-magical. Flying, teleportation, rapid healing that isn't personal regeneration, etc.

    Mundanes might be allowed to be superhumanly strong, durable, and maybe even fast/quick. Basic stuff, things people already have, but up to 11.

    But as soon as magic comes into equation, everyone's suddenly fine with it. "Oh, it's magic, it can do whatever". In the end, magic gets a carte blanche on doing something that people can't imagine a non-mage doing.
    "Levitation by the sheer force of will or soul or mind" IS "magic" from certain angles.

    Just because it doesn't involve spells, doesn't involve rude gestures and flinging a bit of dried poo at someone, doesn't mean it can't be or isn't magic.

    The details of the setting in question matter a lot as to what's magic and what isn't.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "Levitation by the sheer force of will or soul or mind" IS "magic" from certain angles.

    Just because it doesn't involve spells, doesn't involve rude gestures and flinging a bit of dried poo at someone, doesn't mean it can't be or isn't magic.

    The details of the setting in question matter a lot as to what's magic and what isn't.
    Well, the question is, can it be dispelled? Can it be blocked by anti-magic procedures, is it affected by anything designed to stop magic from happening? If we say yes, then it's just another kind of magic, and people tend to "whatever" then too. If it's not, then everyone tends to say "well, how is it doing magic things without being magic?", etc.
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Well, the question is, can it be dispelled? Can it be blocked by anti-magic procedures, is it affected by anything designed to stop magic from happening? If we say yes, then it's just another kind of magic, and people tend to "whatever" then too. If it's not, then everyone tends to say "well, how is it doing magic things without being magic?", etc.
    "Dispell or not dispell" is, IME, a very D&D way of "testing" whether something is "magic".

    Other settings and other systems don't necessarily abide by that rubric.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "Dispell or not dispell" is, IME, a very D&D way of "testing" whether something is "magic".

    Other settings and other systems don't necessarily abide by that rubric.
    Agreed. And I think it's an example of people focusing on names of abilities more than they should (or sloppy naming, your choice). If they'd have been called "Unravel Spell" and "Spell-dampening field" (which really better fits their use), would people still use those as the key distinguishers for magic vs non-magic?

    I'm very much in the "everything's fantastic" camp. "Fantastic" is my alternate word for "things that can't happen on Earth but are possible in this fantasy world"), which includes spells, dragons' flight and breath, barbarian's Rage[1], rogues' Evasion, fighters' Action Surge, etc. So "non-magic" (by which is meant "non-spell-casting") people are still fantastic, just in a different way. Some are magic, some do magic. But neither is limited by Earth biology and physics.

    [1] I prefer to imagine a raging barbarian as hulking out, almost literally. Which is why it doesn't work in heavy armor--there's not enough give in the armor to accommodate the now-substantially-larger physique. But that's not canon, just my headcanon.
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    "Dispell or not dispell" is, IME, a very D&D way of "testing" whether something is "magic".

    Other settings and other systems don't necessarily abide by that rubric.
    Well, Shadowrun still works around Counterspell and Dispelling, etc. Background count hits all magical stuff.

    WoD has all supernatural powers be blocked by True Faith, whether they're Disciplines, Gifts or True Magic (maybe there's an exemption clause for whatever the Imbued have?).
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    Mundanes might be allowed to be superhumanly strong, durable, and maybe even fast/quick. Basic stuff, things people already have, but up to 11.
    Why stop at 11? That's a mere 10% above what an Olympian can do. Why not 20, 30, 40 or 100?

    You crank it up high enough and it might look like magic (it is certainly fantastic, see PhoenixPhyre) but it doesn't have to be. When you can throw rocks so hard they start doing armour piecing damage or dodge so fast it uses the same rules as a short range teleport or... well how long this list is goes depends on the line you draw. For instance I am quite happy to have "chi-type" abilities, a type of magic that comes from physical abilities, but other people don't like that.

    But as soon as magic comes into equation, everyone's suddenly fine with it. "Oh, it's magic, it can do whatever".
    And this is one of the major reasons I think magic theory is important. It gives a framework for what a spell caster can do. You can adjust this to be really high or low and whatever shape you want. But I find it helps give the magic flavour and helps cut off power creep.

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    d20 Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    In terms of caster/martial disparity in D&D, I still think that the most egregious example is Wall of Force (or Forcecage, if you prefer). It may just be because my players tended to heavily lean on that particular spell, but it was worse than Save or Die for me. Unless the enemy had counter-magic or incorporeality, it was just an automatic "I Win" button.

    When in the next game I houseruled that walls of force could be moved with the same Strength Check it took to move Immovable Rods, they practically rioted. It makes me wonder if the existence and assumption of magic as an automatic win condition is detrimental to games as a whole.
    l have a very specific preference when it comes to TTRPGs. If you have a different preference, that's fine, but I just want you to know you're having fun wrong.

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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by comk59 View Post
    It makes me wonder if the existence and assumption of magic as an automatic win condition is detrimental to games as a whole.
    Very much so. Especially when coupled with a belief that non-magic is weak. Weaker, in fact, than real life humans are on a regular basis. People (both DMs and players) low-ball normal human capabilities and put no limits on magic.

    From a game perspective, that's why I'm so fond of the idea that spells and abilities do what they say, no more, no less. It puts hard expectation boundaries on what you get. Does it say it does X? No? Then that doesn't happen. Period. On the other hand, ability checks are open-ended, limited only by what makes sense in the fiction.

    But lots of people don't like that, so YMMV.
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post

    From a game perspective, that's why I'm so fond of the idea that spells and abilities do what they say, no more, no less. It puts hard expectation boundaries on what you get. Does it say it does X? No? Then that doesn't happen. Period. On the other hand, ability checks are open-ended, limited only by what makes sense in the fiction.

    But lots of people don't like that, so YMMV.
    See, I take a different approach and like systems where magic is either a different kind of skill check, or a weapon attack. Essentially it lets the spellcaster use their casting stat in place of physical stats to accomplish stuff (whether this be healing, grappling, pushing, etc.). But none of the spells just work, you have to pass a casting check to even use them first. Which doesn't matter as much day to day, but can make a real difference in combat.

    That, and I like to spread the "normal people can't do that" mojo around a bit. One of my martial characters has literally super-human strength thanks to muscle implants, while another has a drug that gives him Scent, Darkvision, and a +25 to perception tests (It's a d100 system, so not an insane bonus, but still pretty hefty).

    I much prefer a game where everyone is different flavours of special, instead of one where most of the characters are above average, except for the super-special character who has abilities that always work no matter what.
    l have a very specific preference when it comes to TTRPGs. If you have a different preference, that's fine, but I just want you to know you're having fun wrong.

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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by comk59 View Post
    See, I take a different approach and like systems where magic is either a different kind of skill check, or a weapon attack. Essentially it lets the spellcaster use their casting stat in place of physical stats to accomplish stuff (whether this be healing, grappling, pushing, etc.). But none of the spells just work, you have to pass a casting check to even use them first. Which doesn't matter as much day to day, but can make a real difference in combat.

    That, and I like to spread the "normal people can't do that" mojo around a bit. One of my martial characters has literally super-human strength thanks to muscle implants, while another has a drug that gives him Scent, Darkvision, and a +25 to perception tests (It's a d100 system, so not an insane bonus, but still pretty hefty).

    I much prefer a game where everyone is different flavours of special, instead of one where most of the characters are above average, except for the super-special character who has abilities that always work no matter what.
    I'm not particularly fond of "superhero" games where each person has their particular ability set and that's all they can do. But that's mainly for genre and style reasons, not mechanics.

    I don't like double-rolling (having to roll to see if your "spell" goes off, then rolling to see if you actually hit something with it), but that's an implementation detail.

    My headcanon for D&D (5e is what I play) is heavily influenced by 4e, where everyone is special. There are no "I'm just an ordinary person" characters. It's a fantastic world, and I want it to be fantastic. In all senses of the word. Whether that comes from spells (which only have defined effects, so even the ones that don't require a saving throw or an attack roll only do so much, and most of that can be done by a talented non-caster), class abilities, racial traits, backgrounds (which I definitely give weight to--if you said at character creation that you've studied XYZ, I'm going to tell you about XYZ when you need it. No roll, just info. But that comes at an opportunity cost, because if you're a ivory tower scholar of XYZ, you're also not someone with active criminal network contacts.), I don't really care. But everyone is special.

    I prefer team games, so balance does not imply identity. I'd rather not have a bunch of people who are either of
    * omnicompetent
    * so heavily specialized that they only have one trick

    In my mind, proper characters for my games have a set of things they're especially good at and then a bunch of things that they can handle, but not super well, and maybe one type of thing that they don't do well at all at.
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    Default Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down

    Quote Originally Posted by Pippa the Pixie View Post
    This really is just about only a D&D problem...really a d20/3E/4E/5E problem....

    Yes, as has been discussed in other threads:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Well, original, only Fighters got to use THE most powerful magic items: swords. Seriously, until a certain uber staff was added to the game, magic swords were by far the most powerful magic item. The got the biggest bonuses, had the most special abilities, and we're frequently intelligent to boot. And magic swords were always the most common.

    Later editions of D&D kept a lot of legacy stuff that was powerful because it was "cool" like the highest level spells, while thoroughly breaking the balance by removing stuff because "it wasn't fair". Things like: assumption that most play occurred at low levels, slow leveling through the first levels, even slower leveling for magic users, huge GP gold sinks to get powerful (training, spell research, scroll making), assumptions casters started old and would die in the campaign from old age before getting to high level, truly glass cannon magic-users with no unlimited spells per day (ie cantrips), spell casting easily interrupted, Fighters gaining worldly power / followers, and Fighters getting the best magic items.

    All that stuff kept magic-users somewhat in check. Especially the low levels being the assumed standard for playing D&D ... at the higher levels it still broke down in Wizards favor to fairly large degree, probably intentionally.

    And of course, people ignored it all as un-fun, and then complained that wizards ruled while fighters drooled. And those "unfun" elements all slowly got revised out of later editions. So really, there's no reason to be surprised that modern D&D still has issues for "legacy curse" reasons. The designers created the curse because that's what players wanted ... all the power with none of the original limitations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Older editions of D&D, arcane magic features included:
    - glass cannon hit points and AC
    - very limited uses per day until high levels
    - slow XP table
    - could not cast effectively in melee

    Playing a Wizard was playing the game on hard mode, unless you had a wall of Fighters and Clerics in front of you for defense. Your role was artillery for very dangerous situations.

    Even so this broke down around or about level 10, but the game breaking down at higher levels due to magic in general is true for most editions of D&D. You either accept the silliness as all in good fun and plough on, or don't like it and reset with new characters. Or make an E6-like mod.*

    Of course, in older edition getting a character to name level was quite hard unless your DM just handed out treasure like candy, which was unfortunaltey common. One of the issues with D&D's recent editions current rapid advancement is they didn't slow the progress to gaining higher level spell leveling up in the process. Getting access to level 6 spells used to take years of play, not less than a year.

    --------------

    Warhammer FRP, or 40k DH/Only War Psykers (I've read but not played the latter), as mentioned above, also makes for hard mode casters, since magic is a crap shoot. like playing a D&D Wild Mage, you have a passable chance of ass-ploding your own party. And in there's the added social hostility, which also featured in D&D's Dark Sun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutazoia View Post
    Older editions also didn't have meta-magic feats that only wizards could take, didn't have "defensive casting" or "5 foot steps" that would prevent a*caster*from being interrupted, casters lost their spell if they took damage while casting, spells had casting times that added to the casters initiative (Initiative of 15 and a casting time of 4, you START casting on 15, and your spells goes off on 11, leaving plenty of time to be interrupted), casters didn't have infinite capacity, always full component pouches, casters had to roll to see if they could even learn a new spell, rather than having them just spontaneously "poof" into their spell book, casters had to rest a full day to re-memorize used spells....

    The problem isn't that mundane characters are too weak, the problem is that 3.x plus casters got a huge buff that they really didn't need. Couple that with the unlimited multi-classing mechanic of 3.x and things start to get really messy.

    Plus, pre 3.x, each class had its own XP table. Some classes would need less XP than others to advance...the more powerful the class, the more XP it needed. Casters generally needed more XP per level than the Fighter did, but then the Fighter couldn't kill an entire room of orcs in a split second either.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Balance issues have been there at the start of D&D.
    I can very much remember how in 70's early 80's it was hard to get anyone to play a "Magic User" (even when the Intelligence score roll was higher their Strength), simply because at low levels they had the least they could do (and the lowest hit points).
    Most everyone played "Fighting-Men" to start, but those few who played for "the long game" found that "Magic Users" vastly overpowered other classes at high levels. Thematically and for "world building" it made sense, magicians should be rare, and "the great and powerful Wizard" should be more fearsome then the "mighty Warrior". But as a game? Having separate classes each doing their unique thing is more fun, and always hanging in the back while another PC does everything isn't.

    While it ruins my "old school cred" I am in the tank for balance. So far in play (low levels so far) 5e seems to hit it about right, but I find high level play confusing and a bit dull, plus I lack the mental agility to effectively play a spell-caster anyway, plus I want to play Captain Sinbad the hero, not the villainous Sokurah the Magician!

    I bought and read the 3e PHB over a decade ago, and have glanced at it, 2e AD&D, 3.5, and 4e but I never played those versions of D&D, so grab a shovel full of salt..

    I've played B/X and 5e D&D recently, Oe D&D and 1e AD&D decades ago, and some other RPG's, so those are what I base my responses on.

    While in theory Magic-Users became the most powerful characters (it even suggested so in the rules:

    1974 - Dungeons & Dragons Book 1: Men & Magic,
    (Page 6)

    "Magic-Users: Top level magic-users are perhaps the most powerful characters in the game, but it is a long hard road to the top, and to begin with they are very weak, so survival is often the question, unless fighters protect the low-level magical types until they have worked up."...)

    IIRC, in practice Mages were so weak that no one I knew played them long. We only did it when we rolled badly or (briefly) wanted a challenge, so I never saw any Mages past second level that weren't NPC's at my usual tables.

    I did encounter some higher level Magic User PC's at DunDraCon around 1980 or so, but the players were bearded college student jerks, who thought they were all that because they could drive and vote!

    So what if my character is "Just another imitation Conan", is your Gandalf/Merlin/Thulsa Doom expy that much better?

    *rant* *rave* *grumble* *fume*

    ....anyway, it was such a long slog before a Magic User PC became less weak than the other classes that if they survived to become poweful it seemed like a just reward in old D&D.

    Unlike D&D, in Stormbringer, on the other hand, you became a Sorcerer when you had really lucky rolls (high POW), which made the other PC's sidekicks, which for a player was LAME!

    But as a Gamemaster I loved the Stormbringer magic system, which involved summoning and attempting to bind Demons (just so METAL!)..

    One of my favorite games to play is Pendragon in which all but the 4th edition the spell-casters are all NPC's and all the PK's (player Knights) rock!

    The "magic system" is a list of trope suggestions for the GM (unless you use the 4th edition in which magic use involves astrology, so you cast spells "when the stars are right", the 5th edition went back to magic use being NPC).

    !In the WotC 5e D&D I play now, there's more than one class that can cast spells at 1st level, and they seem to be at least equal to the non-spell-casting classes so the fun is more evenly divided.

    Many even suggest that Spell-casters are too powerful compared to non-casters which may be true, but that seems to be a just reward for how many rules their players need to keep track of in 5e D&D.

    I'm still having fun playing Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues so it's cool.

    Call of Cthullu had a magic system that I admire, the more you know of magic the more likely you'll go insane!

    Combine that with Stormbringer!

    In Stormbringer Instead of casting spells Stormbringer you summon demons and elementals to make magic. For more poweful magic you have to summon more powerful beings and they need to be persuaded!

    Couldn't demons just decide to eat you up yum-yum or rend your psyche and soul instead?

    Damn straight!

    What part of "secrets man was not meant to know" didn't you understand?!

    Practicing magic is a dangerous act, otherwise every Tom, Rick, and witch Hazel would do it!

    Magic as tool box "Levels to move the world" is LAME!

    Magic should be more like fire, specifically hellfire!

    Yes you may boil your tea (and incinerate your enemies!), but you run the risk of dooming yourself.

    Now that's genre!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    [1] I prefer to imagine a raging barbarian as hulking out, almost literally. Which is why it doesn't work in heavy armor--there's not enough give in the armor to accommodate the now-substantially-larger physique. But that's not canon, just my headcanon.
    "Hulking Out" might not be grotesque enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by comk59 View Post
    It makes me wonder if the existence and assumption of magic as an automatic win condition is detrimental to games as a whole.
    I think so, yeah - the problem is that traditionally, a D&D Magic-User literally had a collection of 'I Win' buttons, usable once a day, and their whole point was to hit said button at the right time. So the spells were 'balanced' by being powerful, but very limited-use.

    At the other extreme, you've got games like Call of Cthulhu or Unknown Armies, where magic is often literally too much trouble to be worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Very much so. Especially when coupled with a belief that non-magic is weak. Weaker, in fact, than real life humans are on a regular basis. People (both DMs and players) low-ball normal human capabilities and put no limits on magic.
    Yup. People have done some impossible-seeming things is real life, never mind legends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    [Magic swords] got the biggest bonuses, had the most special abilities, and we're frequently intelligent to boot.
    Was that supposed to read "were"?

    Anyways, I have something to say on the topic. Particularly an example of how normal skills (you know the ones non-casters* use) can come up pretty underwhelming.
    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
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    Research DCs Information Found [note: is a table - c/p messed up formatting]
    6 These are alanny (name on sight).
    12 Alanny cannot fly, but they can glide long distances.
    18 Alanny are the species most widespread across the starlanes.
    25 The majority of the most powerful information brokers across the starlanes are alanny.
    38 Alanny do not have territory or nations, instead they are organized into clans.
    50 Proportionally few alanny are involved in any anti-builder or anti-human movements.
    So I poked around the rules and you would add attribute+attribute plus Xd8 for a skill roll. Both attributes are sharpness for investigation (I think that is the skill you would use here) which caps at 10 and a maestro of investigation adds 6d8. So the best possible investigator will not usually (avg. score 47 vs. DC 50) be able to uncover everything on that chart. The last point on this list is: Do these people actively hate us?

    So most parties, with an investigator at the limits of human ability, will enter Alanny territory unsure if they will be lynched on sight.

    I don't know what the casters in the system (psychics I recall) can do in this regard. I wouldn't be surprised if it blows this out of the water and for the space dogs' sake I kind of hope it does.

    * Martial, but here explicitly extending to "rogues" as well as "fighters". In some systems that would just be a skill difference. In systems that treat skills separately one might split the martial from the skill-monkey but I am going to group them together for this discussion. Besides both not being casters, mechanical they both tend to operate directly off of base rules, instead of a special sub-system or collections of exceptions or special abilities. Or proportionately more so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    Was that supposed to read "were"?

    Anyways, I have something to say on the topic. Particularly an example of how normal skills (you know the ones non-casters* use) can come up pretty underwhelming.
    So I poked around the rules and you would add attribute+attribute plus Xd8 for a skill roll. Both attributes are sharpness for investigation (I think that is the skill you would use here) which caps at 10 and a maestro of investigation adds 6d8. So the best possible investigator will not usually (avg. score 47 vs. DC 50) be able to uncover everything on that chart. The last point on this list is: Do these people actively hate us?

    So most parties, with an investigator at the limits of human ability, will enter Alanny territory unsure if they will be lynched on sight.

    I don't know what the casters in the system (psychics I recall) can do in this regard. I wouldn't be surprised if it blows this out of the water and for the space dogs' sake I kind of hope it does.

    * Martial, but here explicitly extending to "rogues" as well as "fighters". In some systems that would just be a skill difference. In systems that treat skills separately one might split the martial from the skill-monkey but I am going to group them together for this discussion. Besides both not being casters, mechanical they both tend to operate directly off of base rules, instead of a special sub-system or collections of exceptions or special abilities. Or proportionately more so.
    Since it's my system - let me jump in here.

    The big thing is - those aren't Investigation DCs. They're Research DCs - which is a different skill.

    Basically Investigation is a combination of reading someone (if they're lying etc.) and finding stuff by searching (like clues at a crime scene). Research is like being a scholar and being able to... research stuff.

    Research doesn't get to add any attribute. So - the max you could get is 6d8+0. BUT (and this is a big but) that's only what your character can remember off the top of their head. If you get on your computer and poke around for a minute, you get a second roll with x2 to your roll. Spend 10 minutes and you get a third roll with x3. An hour for x4, and a week for x5.

    So, if you have ONE rank in Research and spend an hour researching, you'd have a chance of learning all of those things, and with TWO ranks you'd probably learn everything in that same hour. (3d8 x4 = mean of 54).

    If you have max ranks you could probably find everything out in a minute of quick research. (The alanny are pretty common, and aren't supposed to be hard to find info about.)

    Sorry that that wasn't clearer.

    And even if you didn't know any of that info, you wouldn't be be lynched. Most alanny are rather outgoing, and while there is discrimination against humans throughout the starlanes, alanny tend to be much friendlier to other species than a lot of aliens that humans may encounter. Every group other than the builders have some individuals who are anti-human; the alanny have fewer than most.

    I tried to make it so that none of the Research information is necessary to play the game - just interesting and/or might give you an edge. In the case of the alanny - you'd know that alanny were less likely to hate you just for being human.

    Edit: On the topic at hand - I do agree that MANY systems have magic/psychics/force-users be too powerful and/or have too much utility and overshadow what the martials can do. I actually kept that in mind while designing my system, and while psychics are around, their abilities aren't nearly as broad as magical abilities often are.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-04-20 at 04:26 PM.

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    I think "some people get at-will abilities, while other people get limited-use abilities" is a big factor in how systems are balanced.

    Similarly, I think "some people get active abilities, while other people get passive abilities" - or, at least, that they get a different balance of those two - can affect the balance and/or the perception of balance.

    And then there's the complex question of evaluating various resource pools against each other.

    To put those last two together in a 3e context: people complain about how much it costs the Fighter buy needful things like Flight that the Wizard just "gets for free" as part of his class, but do you realize just how much WBL it costs a 20th level Wizard to buy the 60 extra HP that the 20th level Fighter got for free as part of their class?

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    Last time this came up, I tired to lay out the conflicting "wants" that some system/setting combinations try to simultaneously meet, and that some gamers seem determined to see enshrined -- that inherently cannot be met simultaneously.

    1) The reality of the setting looks largely like our own for the general time period being duplicated.
    2) The people there are largely like real human beings.
    3) There's magic that lets some people do things that are otherwise impossible within that setting *.
    4) At least some people can through just hard work, willpower, determination, skill, whatever, and having no magic at all, compete with those who do have magic **.

    (* Magic as used here CAN be far broader / far more varied than "spellcasting".)
    (** The word "Mundane" being avoided here because it always turns into a stupid violent brawl whenever someone uses that word in these discussions.)


    This can be solved by:
    * turning the dial down on magic
    * turning the dial up on what people can do without magic (and also changing the setting to reflect this, you don't need draft animals when the farmer is stronger than an ox and has more endurance than a mule)
    * broadening magic to include non-spellcasting "fantastic" abilities that most people still can't master and accomplish.

    There is, however, one completely non-functional choice that some gamers, and some games, seem determined to pursue, that always ends in tears and/or a broken mangled wreck of a setting -- "I want my utterly non-magical, non-fantastic warrior to be able to beat spellcasters who cast level 9 spells, just by being that awesome" in a setting where the second solution above has not been applied.

    Sorry, but in the typical D&D setting, with the typical D&D peasants and shopkeepers and artisans and beggers who are just like real-world people, the 20th level Fighter or Rogue who is on par with a 20th level Wizard is in their own way magical, and just as fantastic and unusual and "superpowered" as any level 20 spellcaster of any sort.

    In that sort of setting, when your Fighter leaps 30 feet, dodges multiple attacks in midair, lands on a teetering post, and attacks multiple targets while balanced on it, sending them all flying away prone... your Fighter is no longer just "a fighting man" getting by on "grit and steel"... your fighter is just as fantastic as any spellcaster.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-04-20 at 06:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Since it's my system - let me jump in here.
    [...]
    So, if you have ONE rank in Research and spend an hour researching, you'd have a chance of learning all of those things, and with TWO ranks you'd probably learn everything in that same hour. (3d8 x4 = mean of 54).
    That sounds more reasonable. I mean I was going through it pretty quickly after I remember that this was not a d20 system (I think I was thinking of Hearts of Darkness), roughly equivalent to someone hurriedly looking something up in a session. Combining what I know about your system's power level (more gritty mercenaries than grand heroes as I recall) that actually seems right.

    I am wondering how I could make a "I know embarrassing facts from childhood" level researcher. You would probably have to put slots for types of information (I think more situational informational will be needed for that level). Or just see what Exalted does in its highest level related charms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    To put those last two together in a 3e context: people complain about how much it costs the Fighter buy needful things like Flight that the Wizard just "gets for free" as part of his class, but do you realize just how much WBL it costs a 20th level Wizard to buy the 60 extra HP that the 20th level Fighter got for free as part of their class?
    My first thought: What level of summon monster gets you a monster with at least 60 HP? Although if we want to be really sure we can pop this onto the 3.X form as an optimization question. I'm sure we will get a very well researched answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    I am wondering how I could make a "I know embarrassing facts from childhood" level researcher. You would probably have to put slots for types of information (I think more situational informational will be needed for that level). Or just see what Exalted does in its highest level related charms.
    Lol - not something that I plan to make mechanics for in my system.

    I'm a big believer of systems not trying to be all things to all people, and I'm going for the "Be Bad-Donkey Space Privateers!" vibe, which doesn't really include digging up childhood secrets.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-04-20 at 10:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Sorry, but in the typical D&D setting, with the typical D&D peasants and shopkeepers and artisans and beggers who are just like real-world people, the 20th level Fighter or Rogue who is on par with a 20th level Wizard is in their own way magical, and just as fantastic and unusual and "superpowered" as any level 20 spellcaster of any sort.

    In that sort of setting, when your Fighter leaps 30 feet, dodges multiple attacks in midair, lands on a teetering post, and attacks multiple targets while balanced on it, sending them all flying away prone... your Fighter is no longer just "a fighting man" getting by on "grit and steel"... your fighter is just as fantastic as any spellcaster.
    I honestly don't see why "in this setting, exceptional training makes you able to do feats that would be physically impossible in the real world, and are impossible for the bulk of the setting, but can be done by certain people with certain training" is any more weird than "magic is real", and people can see you jump 30 ft and go, wow, that is a well trained person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    D&D still suffers from having a little mini-mechanic tacked on for each new thing, in a way, though less so than some previous editions. I tried to get into this in another thread recently, but really what's needed is a standardized system of some kind for all the possible effects, with resistance and defense and such, rather than a hodgepodge of HP, levels, Ability score "damage", saves that don't always do the same thing, etc.

    Binary effects really are a problem, whether they're "save or suck", "save or die", "save or suffer", or whatever.

    Compare all the "make this save or be mentally affected" spells and powers in D&D, where there's no gradation of impact or effect, to a system where a mental attacker needs to wear down the target's Willpower/Determination/Whatever, and/or gets degrees of effect based on how much they overcome the target's resistance by.

    At least then non-magic-using characters could still somehow gain higher resistances to a lot of magical effects, and be on a more level playing field in that regard.
    I think you're overstating the problem with binary effects. If the effect in question is a simple save-or-die I agree it's not great, but binary debuffs are much less problematic, and the alternative you're putting forward has its own potential pitfalls. If you're hitting a willpower track, your fighter buddy better have "intimidating shout" or whatever that also hits the willpower track or you're just racing each other. Doing a single, binary test to apply a tag like "shaken" is pretty elegant. It's immediately relevant to allies attacking other defenses, and it doesn't require a lot of work to manage or track.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Friv View Post
    I honestly don't see why "in this setting, exceptional training makes you able to do feats that would be physically impossible in the real world, and are impossible for the bulk of the setting, but can be done by certain people with certain training" is any more weird than "magic is real", and people can see you jump 30 ft and go, wow, that is a well trained person.
    Because if it's literally just training, then it represents the an entirely different limit on what the human body can accomplish, other non-adventuring, non-"special" people will still exceed what's possible "IRL", and you get the "farmers don't need draft animals any more" setting change I mentioned already.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mendicant View Post
    I think you're overstating the problem with binary effects. If the effect in question is a simple save-or-die I agree it's not great, but binary debuffs are much less problematic, and the alternative you're putting forward has its own potential pitfalls. If you're hitting a willpower track, your fighter buddy better have "intimidating shout" or whatever that also hits the willpower track or you're just racing each other. Doing a single, binary test to apply a tag like "shaken" is pretty elegant. It's immediately relevant to allies attacking other defenses, and it doesn't require a lot of work to manage or track.
    But then you get into things charm and mind control, where there's no partial effect, a limited space for variable resistance, and other problems.
    It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.

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    The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    There is, however, one completely non-functional choice that some gamers, and some games, seem determined to pursue, that always ends in tears and/or a broken mangled wreck of a setting -- "I want my utterly non-magical, non-fantastic warrior to be able to beat spellcasters who cast level 9 spells, just by being that awesome" in a setting where the second solution above has not been applied.

    Sorry, but in the typical D&D setting, with the typical D&D peasants and shopkeepers and artisans and beggers who are just like real-world people, the 20th level Fighter or Rogue who is on par with a 20th level Wizard is in their own way magical, and just as fantastic and unusual and "superpowered" as any level 20 spellcaster of any sort.
    Hmmm... I think that this harkens back to the OP. Could a Fighter 20 - a "better Fighter than anyone in this world" - just take components from a Wizard's hands faster than he could retrieve them? I mean, I think *I* would have a chance of success at that task (having done the equivalent IRL for the span of "longer than a typical D&D combat lasts"), so I think that a *real* Fighter 20 could probably keep several Wizards at bay simultaneously. Could a perfectly mundane Fighter 20 strike critical areas to disable special abilities of monsters? Again, I think I could poke a Beholder in the eye (and then die to the rest of its attacks, but still…), I think a *real* Fighter 20 could probably spend their turn and "mugglify" most any monster.

    Or, you know, disable their attacking limbs, or their movement limbs, or their "cry for help" or "perceive the world" organs, or...

    Game designers lack imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    My first thought: What level of summon monster gets you a monster with at least 60 HP?
    That doesn't help the Wizard survive a Fireball, or Sneak Attack damage, or put them over the threshold for various spells (like Power Word…).

    People undervalue what the Fighter actually gets. So let's put a GP value on it, before complaining how much they need to spend to "catch up".

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Because if it's literally just training, then it represents the an entirely different limit on what the human body can accomplish, other non-adventuring, non-"special" people will still exceed what's possible "IRL", and you get the "farmers don't need draft animals any more" setting change I mentioned already.
    Not necessarily. While you could argue that, say, Michael Jordan has some genetic advantages, is there really anything that made, say, Bill Gates or Gandhi special? Any genetic advantages possessed by Vincent Van Gogh or Helen Keller?

    Just how "grim dark" are you willing to admit that the world we currently live in really is / isn't?

    It may be comforting to think that Navy Seals or Fortune 500 / world leaders have some "special sauce" or "divine grace" that the common man lacks, but is that reality?

    (For the record, Quertus, my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named, is a firm believer in "grim dark", in "special sauce", in the belief that he is simply incapable of achieving certain things)

    What's wrong with the idea that everyone has that potential, but few reach it? And we're playing the few who are achieving their potential, rather than the ones asking, "would you like fries with that?"?

    Why does that necessitate world-building on the level of world-altering changes? Our farmers in this world still need "horsepower", despite the existence of Einstein and Jackie Chan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    But then you get into things charm and mind control, where there's no partial effect, a limited space for variable resistance, and other problems.
    Again, there is no reason beyond "it wasn't made that way in 3e" that these cannot have partial effects. Several posters have told you this already.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-04-21 at 10:59 AM.

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    Well, you can (in 3.5) have the four Heart of [ELEMENT] spells on you to gain total fortification, rendering you immune to Sneak Attack and crits.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Because if it's literally just training, then it represents the an entirely different limit on what the human body can accomplish, other non-adventuring, non-"special" people will still exceed what's possible "IRL", and you get the "farmers don't need draft animals any more" setting change I mentioned already.
    I'm a pretty decent singer, but it doesn't matter how hard I train, I will never be able to sing the Queen of the Night's aria. Most people won't. All you need to do is say that the training ceiling for certain people is higher and you have a setting in which the vast majority of farmers need normal farm equipment, but if you happen to come into town and see a farmer dragging his plow himself, you'd say, "Wow, that's pretty cool" instead of "Wow, that is not human."

    This isn't even that unusual. There are entire genres of film, book, and legend about people who get effectively superhuman skill through training. It's Sherlock Holmes. It's Robin Hood. It's Guan Yu. It's Dominic Toretto.
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