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Thread: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
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2019-04-19, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Exactly. But you don't need an official condition for each thing--each spell could simply describe what the "lesser" effect is, and it doesn't have to be identical between "similar" spells.
Paralyzed/stunned -> half movement and no reactions for a turn OR can either act or move the next turn, not both OR ...
Charmed -> disadvantage on attacks against the caster for a turn OR target will listen to the next thing you say without immediately going hostile OR ...
I'd probably leave cantrips as no-effect (like an attack), because they're a resourceless thing. And you could calibrate the "lesser" effect vs the power of the spell if it hits--something like hold person would have a comparatively weak lesser effect, because it's a really strong spell. A weaker one might be more reliable. Instead of poisoned for a minute, it might be poisoned until the end of their next turn. Or for 1 attack.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2019-04-19, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
This really is just about only a D&D problem...really a d20/3E/4E/5E problem.
And even more so....well....it's not a game rule problem.
It is a game play problem.
And it really comes down to the simple way of thinking: Mundanes must be put down all the time, but magic must always be free.
Just take the examples of:
Anything happens to put a mundane character down....they can't fly, breathe underwater, teleport or whatever....basicaly they encounter something they can't handel with their mundane skills and powers.....and everyone just nods, agress with it and says ''yup mundanes suck".
But....
Even the vague suggestion that anything any how in any way might effect a magic character...again, they encounter something they can't handel with magic......and everyone yells and screams and complains and would never, never do that because it would be ''wrong".
See the HUGE disconnect?
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2019-04-19, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Who is this "everyone" you speak of?
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
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2019-04-20, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
It's not a d20 problem. It's a generic problem. Very few people can stretch their suspension of disbelief to let non-magical characters perform unrealistic feats. At best, they can believe "razor wind by slashing rapidly" or "shockwave from hitting the earth very hard". Nobody can believe nonmagical nonpowered flight - levitation by the sheer force of will or soul or mind without any magic. Nobody can believe that something that isn't an extension of someone's basic capabilities can be non-magical. Flying, teleportation, rapid healing that isn't personal regeneration, etc.
Mundanes might be allowed to be superhumanly strong, durable, and maybe even fast/quick. Basic stuff, things people already have, but up to 11.
But as soon as magic comes into equation, everyone's suddenly fine with it. "Oh, it's magic, it can do whatever". In the end, magic gets a carte blanche on doing something that people can't imagine a non-mage doing.Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2019-04-20, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-04-20, 06:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
"Levitation by the sheer force of will or soul or mind" IS "magic" from certain angles.
Just because it doesn't involve spells, doesn't involve rude gestures and flinging a bit of dried poo at someone, doesn't mean it can't be or isn't magic.
The details of the setting in question matter a lot as to what's magic and what isn't.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-04-20, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Well, the question is, can it be dispelled? Can it be blocked by anti-magic procedures, is it affected by anything designed to stop magic from happening? If we say yes, then it's just another kind of magic, and people tend to "whatever" then too. If it's not, then everyone tends to say "well, how is it doing magic things without being magic?", etc.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2019-04-20, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-04-20, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Agreed. And I think it's an example of people focusing on names of abilities more than they should (or sloppy naming, your choice). If they'd have been called "Unravel Spell" and "Spell-dampening field" (which really better fits their use), would people still use those as the key distinguishers for magic vs non-magic?
I'm very much in the "everything's fantastic" camp. "Fantastic" is my alternate word for "things that can't happen on Earth but are possible in this fantasy world"), which includes spells, dragons' flight and breath, barbarian's Rage[1], rogues' Evasion, fighters' Action Surge, etc. So "non-magic" (by which is meant "non-spell-casting") people are still fantastic, just in a different way. Some are magic, some do magic. But neither is limited by Earth biology and physics.
[1] I prefer to imagine a raging barbarian as hulking out, almost literally. Which is why it doesn't work in heavy armor--there's not enough give in the armor to accommodate the now-substantially-larger physique. But that's not canon, just my headcanon.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2019-04-20, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Well, Shadowrun still works around Counterspell and Dispelling, etc. Background count hits all magical stuff.
WoD has all supernatural powers be blocked by True Faith, whether they're Disciplines, Gifts or True Magic (maybe there's an exemption clause for whatever the Imbued have?).Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2019-04-20, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Why stop at 11? That's a mere 10% above what an Olympian can do. Why not 20, 30, 40 or 100?
You crank it up high enough and it might look like magic (it is certainly fantastic, see PhoenixPhyre) but it doesn't have to be. When you can throw rocks so hard they start doing armour piecing damage or dodge so fast it uses the same rules as a short range teleport or... well how long this list is goes depends on the line you draw. For instance I am quite happy to have "chi-type" abilities, a type of magic that comes from physical abilities, but other people don't like that.
But as soon as magic comes into equation, everyone's suddenly fine with it. "Oh, it's magic, it can do whatever".
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2019-04-20, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
In terms of caster/martial disparity in D&D, I still think that the most egregious example is Wall of Force (or Forcecage, if you prefer). It may just be because my players tended to heavily lean on that particular spell, but it was worse than Save or Die for me. Unless the enemy had counter-magic or incorporeality, it was just an automatic "I Win" button.
When in the next game I houseruled that walls of force could be moved with the same Strength Check it took to move Immovable Rods, they practically rioted. It makes me wonder if the existence and assumption of magic as an automatic win condition is detrimental to games as a whole.
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2019-04-20, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Very much so. Especially when coupled with a belief that non-magic is weak. Weaker, in fact, than real life humans are on a regular basis. People (both DMs and players) low-ball normal human capabilities and put no limits on magic.
From a game perspective, that's why I'm so fond of the idea that spells and abilities do what they say, no more, no less. It puts hard expectation boundaries on what you get. Does it say it does X? No? Then that doesn't happen. Period. On the other hand, ability checks are open-ended, limited only by what makes sense in the fiction.
But lots of people don't like that, so YMMV.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2019-04-20, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
See, I take a different approach and like systems where magic is either a different kind of skill check, or a weapon attack. Essentially it lets the spellcaster use their casting stat in place of physical stats to accomplish stuff (whether this be healing, grappling, pushing, etc.). But none of the spells just work, you have to pass a casting check to even use them first. Which doesn't matter as much day to day, but can make a real difference in combat.
That, and I like to spread the "normal people can't do that" mojo around a bit. One of my martial characters has literally super-human strength thanks to muscle implants, while another has a drug that gives him Scent, Darkvision, and a +25 to perception tests (It's a d100 system, so not an insane bonus, but still pretty hefty).
I much prefer a game where everyone is different flavours of special, instead of one where most of the characters are above average, except for the super-special character who has abilities that always work no matter what.
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2019-04-20, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
I'm not particularly fond of "superhero" games where each person has their particular ability set and that's all they can do. But that's mainly for genre and style reasons, not mechanics.
I don't like double-rolling (having to roll to see if your "spell" goes off, then rolling to see if you actually hit something with it), but that's an implementation detail.
My headcanon for D&D (5e is what I play) is heavily influenced by 4e, where everyone is special. There are no "I'm just an ordinary person" characters. It's a fantastic world, and I want it to be fantastic. In all senses of the word. Whether that comes from spells (which only have defined effects, so even the ones that don't require a saving throw or an attack roll only do so much, and most of that can be done by a talented non-caster), class abilities, racial traits, backgrounds (which I definitely give weight to--if you said at character creation that you've studied XYZ, I'm going to tell you about XYZ when you need it. No roll, just info. But that comes at an opportunity cost, because if you're a ivory tower scholar of XYZ, you're also not someone with active criminal network contacts.), I don't really care. But everyone is special.
I prefer team games, so balance does not imply identity. I'd rather not have a bunch of people who are either of
* omnicompetent
* so heavily specialized that they only have one trick
In my mind, proper characters for my games have a set of things they're especially good at and then a bunch of things that they can handle, but not super well, and maybe one type of thing that they don't do well at all at.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
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2019-04-20, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
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2019-04-20, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
"Hulking Out" might not be grotesque enough.
Originally Posted by Cúchulainn activates Rage
I think so, yeah - the problem is that traditionally, a D&D Magic-User literally had a collection of 'I Win' buttons, usable once a day, and their whole point was to hit said button at the right time. So the spells were 'balanced' by being powerful, but very limited-use.
At the other extreme, you've got games like Call of Cthulhu or Unknown Armies, where magic is often literally too much trouble to be worth it.
Yup. People have done some impossible-seeming things is real life, never mind legends.
"As always, magic is limited by your imagination - if you can imagine it happening, it does. And martial powers are limited by your imagination - if you can imagine a reason why it can't happen, it doesn't." - LightWardenImagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
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2019-04-20, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Was that supposed to read "were"?
Anyways, I have something to say on the topic. Particularly an example of how normal skills (you know the ones non-casters* use) can come up pretty underwhelming.
So I poked around the rules and you would add attribute+attribute plus Xd8 for a skill roll. Both attributes are sharpness for investigation (I think that is the skill you would use here) which caps at 10 and a maestro of investigation adds 6d8. So the best possible investigator will not usually (avg. score 47 vs. DC 50) be able to uncover everything on that chart. The last point on this list is: Do these people actively hate us?
So most parties, with an investigator at the limits of human ability, will enter Alanny territory unsure if they will be lynched on sight.
I don't know what the casters in the system (psychics I recall) can do in this regard. I wouldn't be surprised if it blows this out of the water and for the space dogs' sake I kind of hope it does.
* Martial, but here explicitly extending to "rogues" as well as "fighters". In some systems that would just be a skill difference. In systems that treat skills separately one might split the martial from the skill-monkey but I am going to group them together for this discussion. Besides both not being casters, mechanical they both tend to operate directly off of base rules, instead of a special sub-system or collections of exceptions or special abilities. Or proportionately more so.
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2019-04-20, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Since it's my system - let me jump in here.
The big thing is - those aren't Investigation DCs. They're Research DCs - which is a different skill.
Basically Investigation is a combination of reading someone (if they're lying etc.) and finding stuff by searching (like clues at a crime scene). Research is like being a scholar and being able to... research stuff.
Research doesn't get to add any attribute. So - the max you could get is 6d8+0. BUT (and this is a big but) that's only what your character can remember off the top of their head. If you get on your computer and poke around for a minute, you get a second roll with x2 to your roll. Spend 10 minutes and you get a third roll with x3. An hour for x4, and a week for x5.
So, if you have ONE rank in Research and spend an hour researching, you'd have a chance of learning all of those things, and with TWO ranks you'd probably learn everything in that same hour. (3d8 x4 = mean of 54).
If you have max ranks you could probably find everything out in a minute of quick research. (The alanny are pretty common, and aren't supposed to be hard to find info about.)
Sorry that that wasn't clearer.
And even if you didn't know any of that info, you wouldn't be be lynched. Most alanny are rather outgoing, and while there is discrimination against humans throughout the starlanes, alanny tend to be much friendlier to other species than a lot of aliens that humans may encounter. Every group other than the builders have some individuals who are anti-human; the alanny have fewer than most.
I tried to make it so that none of the Research information is necessary to play the game - just interesting and/or might give you an edge. In the case of the alanny - you'd know that alanny were less likely to hate you just for being human.
Edit: On the topic at hand - I do agree that MANY systems have magic/psychics/force-users be too powerful and/or have too much utility and overshadow what the martials can do. I actually kept that in mind while designing my system, and while psychics are around, their abilities aren't nearly as broad as magical abilities often are.Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-04-20 at 04:26 PM.
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2019-04-20, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
I think "some people get at-will abilities, while other people get limited-use abilities" is a big factor in how systems are balanced.
Similarly, I think "some people get active abilities, while other people get passive abilities" - or, at least, that they get a different balance of those two - can affect the balance and/or the perception of balance.
And then there's the complex question of evaluating various resource pools against each other.
To put those last two together in a 3e context: people complain about how much it costs the Fighter buy needful things like Flight that the Wizard just "gets for free" as part of his class, but do you realize just how much WBL it costs a 20th level Wizard to buy the 60 extra HP that the 20th level Fighter got for free as part of their class?
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2019-04-20, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Last time this came up, I tired to lay out the conflicting "wants" that some system/setting combinations try to simultaneously meet, and that some gamers seem determined to see enshrined -- that inherently cannot be met simultaneously.
1) The reality of the setting looks largely like our own for the general time period being duplicated.
2) The people there are largely like real human beings.
3) There's magic that lets some people do things that are otherwise impossible within that setting *.
4) At least some people can through just hard work, willpower, determination, skill, whatever, and having no magic at all, compete with those who do have magic **.
(* Magic as used here CAN be far broader / far more varied than "spellcasting".)
(** The word "Mundane" being avoided here because it always turns into a stupid violent brawl whenever someone uses that word in these discussions.)
This can be solved by:
* turning the dial down on magic
* turning the dial up on what people can do without magic (and also changing the setting to reflect this, you don't need draft animals when the farmer is stronger than an ox and has more endurance than a mule)
* broadening magic to include non-spellcasting "fantastic" abilities that most people still can't master and accomplish.
There is, however, one completely non-functional choice that some gamers, and some games, seem determined to pursue, that always ends in tears and/or a broken mangled wreck of a setting -- "I want my utterly non-magical, non-fantastic warrior to be able to beat spellcasters who cast level 9 spells, just by being that awesome" in a setting where the second solution above has not been applied.
Sorry, but in the typical D&D setting, with the typical D&D peasants and shopkeepers and artisans and beggers who are just like real-world people, the 20th level Fighter or Rogue who is on par with a 20th level Wizard is in their own way magical, and just as fantastic and unusual and "superpowered" as any level 20 spellcaster of any sort.
In that sort of setting, when your Fighter leaps 30 feet, dodges multiple attacks in midair, lands on a teetering post, and attacks multiple targets while balanced on it, sending them all flying away prone... your Fighter is no longer just "a fighting man" getting by on "grit and steel"... your fighter is just as fantastic as any spellcaster.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2019-04-20 at 06:49 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-04-20, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
That sounds more reasonable. I mean I was going through it pretty quickly after I remember that this was not a d20 system (I think I was thinking of Hearts of Darkness), roughly equivalent to someone hurriedly looking something up in a session. Combining what I know about your system's power level (more gritty mercenaries than grand heroes as I recall) that actually seems right.
I am wondering how I could make a "I know embarrassing facts from childhood" level researcher. You would probably have to put slots for types of information (I think more situational informational will be needed for that level). Or just see what Exalted does in its highest level related charms.
My first thought: What level of summon monster gets you a monster with at least 60 HP? Although if we want to be really sure we can pop this onto the 3.X form as an optimization question. I'm sure we will get a very well researched answer.
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2019-04-20, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-04-20 at 10:31 PM.
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2019-04-21, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
I honestly don't see why "in this setting, exceptional training makes you able to do feats that would be physically impossible in the real world, and are impossible for the bulk of the setting, but can be done by certain people with certain training" is any more weird than "magic is real", and people can see you jump 30 ft and go, wow, that is a well trained person.
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2019-04-21, 02:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
I think you're overstating the problem with binary effects. If the effect in question is a simple save-or-die I agree it's not great, but binary debuffs are much less problematic, and the alternative you're putting forward has its own potential pitfalls. If you're hitting a willpower track, your fighter buddy better have "intimidating shout" or whatever that also hits the willpower track or you're just racing each other. Doing a single, binary test to apply a tag like "shaken" is pretty elegant. It's immediately relevant to allies attacking other defenses, and it doesn't require a lot of work to manage or track.
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2019-04-21, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Because if it's literally just training, then it represents the an entirely different limit on what the human body can accomplish, other non-adventuring, non-"special" people will still exceed what's possible "IRL", and you get the "farmers don't need draft animals any more" setting change I mentioned already.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-04-21, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2019-04-21, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Hmmm... I think that this harkens back to the OP. Could a Fighter 20 - a "better Fighter than anyone in this world" - just take components from a Wizard's hands faster than he could retrieve them? I mean, I think *I* would have a chance of success at that task (having done the equivalent IRL for the span of "longer than a typical D&D combat lasts"), so I think that a *real* Fighter 20 could probably keep several Wizards at bay simultaneously. Could a perfectly mundane Fighter 20 strike critical areas to disable special abilities of monsters? Again, I think I could poke a Beholder in the eye (and then die to the rest of its attacks, but still…), I think a *real* Fighter 20 could probably spend their turn and "mugglify" most any monster.
Or, you know, disable their attacking limbs, or their movement limbs, or their "cry for help" or "perceive the world" organs, or...
Game designers lack imagination.
That doesn't help the Wizard survive a Fireball, or Sneak Attack damage, or put them over the threshold for various spells (like Power Word…).
People undervalue what the Fighter actually gets. So let's put a GP value on it, before complaining how much they need to spend to "catch up".
Not necessarily. While you could argue that, say, Michael Jordan has some genetic advantages, is there really anything that made, say, Bill Gates or Gandhi special? Any genetic advantages possessed by Vincent Van Gogh or Helen Keller?
Just how "grim dark" are you willing to admit that the world we currently live in really is / isn't?
It may be comforting to think that Navy Seals or Fortune 500 / world leaders have some "special sauce" or "divine grace" that the common man lacks, but is that reality?
(For the record, Quertus, my signature academia mage, for whom this account is named, is a firm believer in "grim dark", in "special sauce", in the belief that he is simply incapable of achieving certain things)
What's wrong with the idea that everyone has that potential, but few reach it? And we're playing the few who are achieving their potential, rather than the ones asking, "would you like fries with that?"?
Why does that necessitate world-building on the level of world-altering changes? Our farmers in this world still need "horsepower", despite the existence of Einstein and Jackie Chan.
Again, there is no reason beyond "it wasn't made that way in 3e" that these cannot have partial effects. Several posters have told you this already.Last edited by Quertus; 2019-04-21 at 10:59 AM.
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2019-04-21, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
Well, you can (in 3.5) have the four Heart of [ELEMENT] spells on you to gain total fortification, rendering you immune to Sneak Attack and crits.
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2019-04-21, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Man Keeping the Martial Down
I'm a pretty decent singer, but it doesn't matter how hard I train, I will never be able to sing the Queen of the Night's aria. Most people won't. All you need to do is say that the training ceiling for certain people is higher and you have a setting in which the vast majority of farmers need normal farm equipment, but if you happen to come into town and see a farmer dragging his plow himself, you'd say, "Wow, that's pretty cool" instead of "Wow, that is not human."
This isn't even that unusual. There are entire genres of film, book, and legend about people who get effectively superhuman skill through training. It's Sherlock Holmes. It's Robin Hood. It's Guan Yu. It's Dominic Toretto.If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.