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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    To tell the truth, I feel so guilty about only coming to this series of threads only when I'm having problems and I don't know what to do. I keep thinking that I take far more than I can give and that's terrible. It is what it is, I guess. Maybe I just don't know how to manage my own personal issues well enough to offer help in any meaningful capacity, and for that I'm sorry.

    With that admission of guilt out of the way, I started a new job on Monday, and it was fine the first day, though it got rough after that. The coworker I got paired with kept insisting that I needed to be faster and was plainly frustrated that he needed to explain things to me. The fact that nobody else seems to have ever had this problem also suggests that this is a problem with me, not him.

    I just feel horribly disappointed that it took as much effort as it did for me to qualify for this job only for it turn out that I'm actually really bad at it. Maybe I had hoped that by building up some skills and getting on a decent career path I could finally fix myself and stop feeling miserable all the time. That feels pretty childish and naive now. All that said, I do plan on sticking with this job for 90 days. It's probably fair to say that if it doesn't improve then it probably never will.
    Iop brain.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    To tell the truth, I feel so guilty about only coming to this series of threads only when I'm having problems and I don't know what to do. I keep thinking that I take far more than I can give and that's terrible. It is what it is, I guess. Maybe I just don't know how to manage my own personal issues well enough to offer help in any meaningful capacity, and for that I'm sorry.

    With that admission of guilt out of the way, I started a new job on Monday, and it was fine the first day, though it got rough after that. The coworker I got paired with kept insisting that I needed to be faster and was plainly frustrated that he needed to explain things to me. The fact that nobody else seems to have ever had this problem also suggests that this is a problem with me, not him.

    I just feel horribly disappointed that it took as much effort as it did for me to qualify for this job only for it turn out that I'm actually really bad at it. Maybe I had hoped that by building up some skills and getting on a decent career path I could finally fix myself and stop feeling miserable all the time. That feels pretty childish and naive now. All that said, I do plan on sticking with this job for 90 days. It's probably fair to say that if it doesn't improve then it probably never will.
    For feeling guilty about coming for advice, two things: if you feel like you cannot give advice, it's better to not push out something as "payment". An unspoken value to these threads is that they can also serve as a record for someone who is struggling, but is finding it difficult to reach out for help, thinking that "I am just some text on a screen". In reading these threads, one can find accounts and advice for similar problems.

    There is no give and take in these circles. It grows as we contribute to it, and stands as it's own records. A digital Inukshuk for those struggling in the messy business of Life.

    =====================

    As for your struggles, as a research assistant, I hear you. I have a few questions:

    Is there any part of this job you can try and put time in to try and improve skills at? I am not saying as to let this job consume your waking hours (though I say that in a "do as I say, not as I do" way), but something that can get you to climb the learning curve faster? This may be something to ask your co-worker, but they may not be super helpful in this if they are hyper critical of someone starting out.

    However, this is the start. You haven't hit your stride yet, and if you landed the job, then you obviously displayed skills the hiring team (who would have hired all your seemingly unfazed colleagues) thinks make you a fit for the position.

    Just because you cannot run up the mountain right at the start, doesn't mean you cannot summit it in due time.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    For feeling guilty about coming for advice, two things: if you feel like you cannot give advice, it's better to not push out something as "payment". An unspoken value to these threads is that they can also serve as a record for someone who is struggling, but is finding it difficult to reach out for help, thinking that "I am just some text on a screen". In reading these threads, one can find accounts and advice for similar problems.

    There is no give and take in these circles. It grows as we contribute to it, and stands as it's own records. A digital Inukshuk for those struggling in the messy business of Life.

    =====================
    See that? That's exactly the kind of beautiful thing to tell someone that I could never think of. I wish I was able to offer that kind of reassurance and insight to someone who's struggling, I really do. I don't think I'm wired that way though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    As for your struggles, as a research assistant, I hear you. I have a few questions:

    Is there any part of this job you can try and put time in to try and improve skills at? I am not saying as to let this job consume your waking hours (though I say that in a "do as I say, not as I do" way), but something that can get you to climb the learning curve faster? This may be something to ask your co-worker, but they may not be super helpful in this if they are hyper critical of someone starting out.

    However, this is the start. You haven't hit your stride yet, and if you landed the job, then you obviously displayed skills the hiring team (who would have hired all your seemingly unfazed colleagues) thinks make you a fit for the position.

    Just because you cannot run up the mountain right at the start, doesn't mean you cannot summit it in due time.
    Aside from learning how to calm the heck down? No there's not really anything I can do on my own time. The trouble is that there seems to have been an expectation of my ability that wasn't met. As such, I'm worried that I got the job by accidentally misrepresenting my skills rather than demonstrating them accurately.

    I could ask my coworker about this, but he already seems tired dealing with my garbage. Maybe I'll hit my stride in due time, maybe I won't. Like I said, if I don't get up to par after 90 days, I don't think it will happen.
    Iop brain.

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    See that? That's exactly the kind of beautiful thing to tell someone that I could never think of. I wish I was able to offer that kind of reassurance and insight to someone who's struggling, I really do. I don't think I'm wired that way though.



    Aside from learning how to calm the heck down? No there's not really anything I can do on my own time. The trouble is that there seems to have been an expectation of my ability that wasn't met. As such, I'm worried that I got the job by accidentally misrepresenting my skills rather than demonstrating them accurately.

    I could ask my coworker about this, but he already seems tired dealing with my garbage. Maybe I'll hit my stride in due time, maybe I won't. Like I said, if I don't get up to par after 90 days, I don't think it will happen.
    I am glad you can take value from what I write. I look at it and see a ****ing big run on sentence. .

    As for the work, fair enough. I only mention looking at other avenues because my stuff has a lot of technical stuff that stretches the learning curve out before you feel "up to speed".

    Good luck!

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    With that admission of guilt out of the way, I started a new job on Monday, and it was fine the first day, though it got rough after that. The coworker I got paired with kept insisting that I needed to be faster and was plainly frustrated that he needed to explain things to me. The fact that nobody else seems to have ever had this problem also suggests that this is a problem with me, not him.
    I have a different kind of guilt when I get to this thread
    Also: my answers are usually impractical or useless. At least judging from the responses. In RL? I'm good at this. Here? There are much better people - so I am trying to get better too.

    Now to your issue: as someone who has to train others and then evaluate the new guys, this seems like standard issue - you are being trained by someone who does not know how to train or does not have the time for it.

    "Nobody else seems to have ever had this problem" => nice, but not real. People do not magically get the overview of the workplace, information about location of items or even internal workings and processes due to being hired. And if this is a job that requires specific skills, these can not be learned by joining the company - the company needs to give you time to train and develop them. Depending on type of the job, this can take anywhere from few days to several years. Even people who worked in similar positions (or with similar machines/programs) need some time to adapt.

    Validity of the feeling "nobody seems to have ever had this problem" could be judged based on where does it come from (the colleague, your observation of workplace, your discussion with other newbies). Most of the time, people who are there for 2+ weeks longer than you will seem like they have much less issues. But do not worry.

    Most people need things explained when they first encounter them - the usual sources of irritation/frustration for a trainer are repeated questions (asking the same few times; not remembering the answer); not asking correctly (asking something completely different than what you really need and getting useless answer in return); asking overly general question ("ok, what now?" when you already should know) or asking questions in irritating way.

    The last one depends on the personality of the trainer.

    What I would suggest is similar to advice above: practice makes perfect. Work on your skill outside of worktime, refresh before work, study a bit - but I would also suggest talking to the supervisor. Depending on company policies/culture, they may be able to tell you what is expected from a trainee and maybe provide some additional training/information.
    Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Yes, that is my name. Feel free to use it.
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  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    Validity of the feeling "nobody seems to have ever had this problem" could be judged based on where does it come from (the colleague, your observation of workplace, your discussion with other newbies). Most of the time, people who are there for 2+ weeks longer than you will seem like they have much less issues. But do not worry.
    The reason I say that has to do with other people that described their first week. Aside from the inevitable mistakes and bad luck that usually happens when starting a new job, they seem to describe an opposite situation. They all said that it's OK to take your time and don't be afraid to ask questions. My experience has been more, "Pick up the pace! Wasn't that already explained to you? Didn't Rory (not really a name of anyone there,) already show you how to do that? Why are you so slow?" "What do you mean you've never seen one of those before? Aren't you in school for this?"

    The takeaway from being told things like that from my second day onward is 1: I'm starting out with a below average skill level for a beginner. 2: I'm here to work, not to learn.

    Predictably, I'm making mistakes in trying to go faster which slows everyone down even more and increases the workload for everyone.
    Iop brain.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    The reason I say that has to do with other people that described their first week. Aside from the inevitable mistakes and bad luck that usually happens when starting a new job, they seem to describe an opposite situation. They all said that it's OK to take your time and don't be afraid to ask questions. My experience has been more, "Pick up the pace! Wasn't that already explained to you? Didn't Rory (not really a name of anyone there,) already show you how to do that? Why are you so slow?" "What do you mean you've never seen one of those before? Aren't you in school for this?"

    The takeaway from being told things like that from my second day onward is 1: I'm starting out with a below average skill level for a beginner. 2: I'm here to work, not to learn.

    Predictably, I'm making mistakes in trying to go faster which slows everyone down even more and increases the workload for everyone.
    Given that everyone else has said it's ok to take your time and ask questions, I can say with confidence that the issue is with your coworker. Their behaviour has no excuse.

    You've been there for ONE WEEK!!!

    I'm an engineer. I went to school for 5 years to become one. And then, when I got on the job? I spent 4 MORE YEARS learning!

    You're not perfectly versed in the job in one week? No ****!! Nobody would be, regardless of previous training. If you came there from a different company with 10 years experience you'd still need at least a week to get up to speed since every company works differently.

    Talk to your supervisor. Mention that your coworker is making you feel terrible for asking questions, and ask if there's another resource to go to with questions or for assistance. Of if there are training resources so you can improve in your own time. This will show them that you're serious about learning and improving, while also avoiding just complaining about the coworker since you're couching it in a request for help.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    You're not perfectly versed in the job in one week? No ****!! Nobody would be, regardless of previous training. If you came there from a different company with 10 years experience you'd still need at least a week to get up to speed since every company works differently.
    I agree with everything ve4grm says, but this paragraph summarizes it perfectly.

    From my own experience (one apprenticeship and 2 years of practical training after university) I can tell you that sometimes even different departments in the same company building work differently, depending on things like work ethic, motivation, skills and personal life.

    I might also add that many people VASTLY under- / overestimate what a beginner should be capable of. Some of them just seem to forget how they started and how difficult it is to learn many things at once (because, you know, they have been doing it for years and don't have to think about it anymore... "obviously" you must be a complete moron because you can't do the same thing right now).

    Also, helping a newbie is always more work for the beginning. That's a fact, simple as that. In Germany we have a saying along the lines of "Give me an apprentice who only triples my work, and I will kiss your feet."

    Everything but polite and constructive criticism is not warranted!
    I've been there. Trust me.

    Also, this might be inspirational:
    https://doodlealley.com/2012/10/10/b...-with-failure/


    Quote Originally Posted by FinnLassie View Post
    No advice please, but I just want to say that I am. So. Tired. Tired of narcissism. Tired of trying to converse with a narcissist. Exhausted trying to not make the narcissist berserk forcing me to cut ties. Absolutely enraged that the narcissist uses my nephews as weapons to gain power. So. Damn. Tired.
    No advice, just a mental hug.
    I've been drained by people's behaviour before, it is just... painfully numb I guess.
    Last edited by Thrawn4; 2019-08-12 at 12:03 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Mith View Post
    Some advice I came across today that may help you in this time (and perhaps others in this thread)

    https://twitter.com/TheRaDR/status/1...670718464?s=19

    As for your son, one thing I can recommend when he looks at courses is to look at doing smaller course loads, especially to start with. That can give him time to adjust to the rigour of University without being swamped right out the gate. Depending on what he's looking at (and your University) he might be able to do some prep work to allow him to ease into university courses (might only be a thing in Maths though).

    University is hard yes, but I'd say the trick is to find something that gives you the will to keep on at it. Otherwise you'll be stuck at the end with a really expensive sheet of paper.

    Not sure what other resources are available for you but if he doesn't have a solid picture of what he wants to do, things searching things such as "what can I do with X degree?" is a good start.

    On that particular topic I can help a bit more, as I am now 6 years into post secondary school/work, though some specifics may be different from university to university.
    I would recommend going to a community college, and getting the basics out of the way there. College can be crazy expensive, and this would be a way to save some money, and get some support of folks near home.

    I would recommend talking to a trusted friend or relative over what is expected at college. Check in with one or more people that know about college early and often. Get tutors, find someone who is really good at witting papers and have them check your work, and provide feedback. Seriously getting good grades at this point is important. Take it slow, and get all the tutors you can get your hands on. Study sessions, free tutors, paid tutors, all of it!

    Your work will often not speak for itself. People do not grade like that. Things like not going to class being viewed as disrespectful, and will lead to a lower grade. Things like the fact that a often syllabus lies . . . they are so very full of lies . . . it is likely written by the teacher's boss. Things like sitting in front center and participating, actively making the teachers job easier, is a good way to go, it is a nice thing to do, and it will help with your grade.

    DO RECONASANCE ON PROFESSORS! Oh my gosh this is important. Avoid the bad professors! Some are just horrible! Some are just wonderful! Find out! If at all possible find professors that teach at the higher levels and the lower levels. They likely know more, and they know what to expect from a freshman . . . unlike a freshly minted professor straight from graduate school who will likely grade harshly.

    -----

    Community college is likely how we will do it when our girls hit college.

    Oh my gosh did I screw up my early college years based on all sorts of misconceptions. College professors are not super logical folks who follow the rules, and your work does not speak for itself (you need to go to class, and get the teacher to learn your name). Oh boy did those assumptions hurt me.

    Learn all about the ways of college . . . they do not tell you any of the useful stuff . . . find someone (many someone's) who survived it, and talk over all the little quirks that no one tells you during orientation. There are likely YouTube videos and books about it as well.

    Getting a job at the grocery store was a mistake for me, but evidently a job is good for most kids. I should have made it abundantly clear that school came first, and I should have called in sick when I needed to study. Plenty of my co-workers did. I would have done better mowing some lawns for date money, rather than work at the grocery store.

    I plan on hiring my friend to tutor them and help with papers. My wife has a degree in reading education, so I hope that will help. I can write an A-grade paper at the graduate level rather quickly, but I am not sure how well I would be at proof-reading someone else's paper. I suppose I could be helpful somehow.

    All the same I plan on encouraging mentors, study groups, school tutors, paid tutors, and all kinds of support. Going it alone was a mistake for me. Kicking the bird out of the nest and hoping they will graduate is not the way to go in my opinion. This is time and money . . . treat it like it is an investment of time and money. Take it seriously, and make sure that plans, preparation, and support is there.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-08-19 at 07:11 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Thank you very much for the kind words, upon reflection it's clear that my wife values her privacy too much to have ever done the promotion necessary to be the author she once wanted to be, a more likely fate is that she would've completed law school and have become a lawyer instead of a house wife she became, and while she probably would've had more money, she really didn't want to be a lawyer when I met her as after we became a couple she dropped out of law school, was then kicked off of a paid internship, I worked a bit longer at a job that was ending, then we both had a honeymoon living on Unemployment Insurance which (don't tell our kids!), I long thought of as the happiest year of my life (1992) until I had to get a job and found a low paying one, decided that we needed a cheaper place, and we lived in it for 17 years, and were both unhappy, I because I was working jobs I detested for long hours, and her because she hated living where we did, the situation is better now, we have a house, though with our kids it's crowded, but this week I just can't shake a sadness, and have tears right now, the hopes of youth are gone, I don't know if I'll live long enough to stop working and if I do I don't imagine that I"ll be physically capable of much plus watching our older son's childhood end as he struggles to meet the requirements to go to the University near us (which he says he wants to do, but it's a long shot, and the burden of helping him falls on my wife because I didn't go to college and only know some steps to get blue-collar work).

    That it could be far worse is obvious, I pass dozens of the tents of the homeless every work day, and I can remember when the noise in the apartment grew too much and we lived in a truck for a year, but somehow the gratitude I should feel for what we do have doesn't come, but the tears do.
    Why do you feel like it is a long shot? If your son is 14 then he hasn't really done anything the university is looling at yet.

    My suggestion is to contact some of the professors and advisors at the university and look for someone who will be a mentor and help him craft his university entrance now.
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  11. - Top - End - #251
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    Oh! He's not going to the University now! He's 14, it's the struggle to get in that's worrisome.
    I was thinking High School here for my advice. As far as struggles, all I can think of is find some tutors to help with subjects. Because a lot of difficulties with some subject areas is due to missing a key point from previous years and not being able to easily move forward.

    I do still recommend putting in the degree planning now though. That will save money as well.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Try to study something that is marketable.

    I have several friends with English degrees that do not have jobs in English, and could be doing what they are doing now without any degree at all. Going into mounds of debt may not be a good idea.

    Perhaps when schools did not put you into mounds of debt it was likely a lot more okay to go for the experience, and life lessons. Having $40,000+ of debt and no job/income to show for it (basically worse off for going) would really suck.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-08-12 at 03:30 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    The reason I say that has to do with other people that described their first week. Aside from the inevitable mistakes and bad luck that usually happens when starting a new job, they seem to describe an opposite situation. They all said that it's OK to take your time and don't be afraid to ask questions. My experience has been more, "Pick up the pace! Wasn't that already explained to you? Didn't Rory (not really a name of anyone there,) already show you how to do that? Why are you so slow?" "What do you mean you've never seen one of those before? Aren't you in school for this?"

    The takeaway from being told things like that from my second day onward is 1: I'm starting out with a below average skill level for a beginner. 2: I'm here to work, not to learn.

    Predictably, I'm making mistakes in trying to go faster which slows everyone down even more and increases the workload for everyone.
    ve4grm's advice is rather sound and he summed the issue up nicely - the only thing I'd do different is... at least at first I'd avoid making enemies of coworkers. So yes, definitely talk to the supervisor - but first ask for guidance. Acknowledge that you are not working fast enough or that you feel you slow others down, but ask for pointers. Guidance. Help.

    If he's smart, he'll provide some. If not, follow ve4grm's advice.

    When I started my current job (BTW, working for a German company, so I know the saying Thrawn4 mentions), it took me 2 years to get to position where I contributed. Two years. And now I train people to become productive as fast as possible - but we can shave months at best. The process just takes time for newbies. And when we get a guy with university degree in this field, PhD. or many years of practice - the "ideal match" - it still takes at least 4-6 months. At best.

    So when you said "other people that described their first week" - I assume these were all from your work. All trained by the same guy as you?
    Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Yes, that is my name. Feel free to use it.
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  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by lacco36 View Post
    So when you said "other people that described their first week" - I assume these were all from your work. All trained by the same guy as you?
    I don't think they were trained by him, but they do get along with him OK. And yes, I don't want to make enemies at work, especially not early on. I'm OK with being thought of as dumb, but I'd rather not be seen as dumb and malicious.

    As it stands, I think I'll learn as much as I can about my job with other resources like YouTube. Maybe I'll catch up then. If I don't...well, there's other jobs.
    Iop brain.

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    RogueGuy

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    In most professional settings, I don't expect new people to really preform to the correct level for a full year. My biggest rule of thumb for new people is " Do they ever ask the same question more than once?" If they are not asking more than once, then they will get where they need to be eventually.

    On an unrelated note, my attempts at dating have gone poorly. It's either hit a dating site with the general public and go through tons of women who are uninteresting to find someone who shares interest with me, or hit up the geek dating sites and hope the few women who are on them will notice me through the literal tidal wave of other men. Worse, considering that rule zero of online dating is don't be a creeper; its super frustrating when most of the other guys on the sites can't even clear that bar, and I'm still not getting any contact back.

    No advise needed, just needed to rant. On the plus side, there is a dating event at an upcoming convention I'm planning to attend. So that will be nice.
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    I think I'm going to defer to his wiser judgment in this case, because I'm probably going to keep writing responses and that will only lead to me getting myself in trouble somehow.
    - I should follow this advice more often.

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Ornithologist View Post
    In most professional settings, I don't expect new people to really preform to the correct level for a full year. My biggest rule of thumb for new people is " Do they ever ask the same question more than once?" If they are not asking more than once, then they will get where they need to be eventually.
    I would caution that asking more than once isn't always a problem though. It could mean that it was poorly explained the first time - or, more generously, that the explanation the first person gave didn't work well for them. It could mean that they're getting too much information too quickly or being expected to do too much too early, which results in not retaining all the information. In my experience that last one is very common. I've been dealing with the first one at my current job though - the explanations are given by the guy who knows how to do everything and tends to forget to mention a lot of things because of that.
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  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    There are also individuals who just miss everything regardless of who trains them and how many times something is explained. I have had a few of those at every job I have ever done. Like if a task requires a specific order they will do it out of order and forget steps after a year of performing the same task, or can't be allowed to talk to customers because they will immediately interpret policies in strange and destructive ways.

    The thing is, in my experience you can't tell them apart within a few months (unless the task is mind numbingly easy.) I would stick around and see if you don't start catching some sort of a groove for the basic stuff in a month or two, the complicated stuff might require oversight for a long time.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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  18. - Top - End - #258
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Oh the training for my current job was horrible. I am an insurance agent. I literally fill out forms for a living. Training did not touch on filling out forms at all. No training on how to fill out this or that form, no documentation or manual. I did not even know that there were different forms for enrolling, and what they were called. This is a level of incompetence that is unbelievably astounding and dumbfounding.

    We had customer service trainers fly in, and they trained us on how to talk nicely. We even had a 1/2 day on body language . . . we are 100% over the phone!

    Those customer service trainers designed "manuals" on what they thought insurance agents would need. There should be no surprise that they were not worth the paper they were printed on. Seriously everyone threw them away, and when we had a new supervisor no one had one to show her how horrible they were. The whole set-up was pretty laughable, if you ask me.

    Some people are just clueless, it takes time to acclimate. Your learning style might not match your co-workers learning style. I have seen audio leaners get frustrated at me for wanting to write things down . . . as if everyone can learn via hearing something said aloud once.

    When bosses pick someone to learn from, often they pick the one that is best at the thing. Being good at a thing is not the same as being good at explaining the thing. The same is true for writing procedures. I often see procedures that might as well say "do the thing".

    Figure out what your learning style is (styles are), and do the same for the co-worker training you. Let them know that people are different and that you need to work together to figure it out. Many folks are clueless about people being different, and some just don't care.
    Last edited by darkrose50; 2019-08-15 at 08:57 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #259
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    I would caution that asking more than once isn't always a problem though. It could mean that it was poorly explained the first time - or, more generously, that the explanation the first person gave didn't work well for them. It could mean that they're getting too much information too quickly or being expected to do too much too early, which results in not retaining all the information. In my experience that last one is very common. I've been dealing with the first one at my current job though - the explanations are given by the guy who knows how to do everything and tends to forget to mention a lot of things because of that.
    Yeah, even asking more than once isn't an issue. More than twice might be, depending on context. But I have tasks for my job that I have to ask how to do (or google how to do) almost every time I do them because they come up so rarely.

    I once got a poor review from a trainer because I "asked too many questions" and I was only asking how to do things once, then sometimes asking for clarification on what the goals of those things were. It was solely because the person training me wasn't great at training, and (more importantly) didn't want to be training.

    As I got into my actual career, I've come to hold my willingness to ask questions and drive to understand what I'm being asked to do as one of my most valuable tendencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ornithologist View Post
    In most professional settings, I don't expect new people to really preform to the correct level for a full year. My biggest rule of thumb for new people is " Do they ever ask the same question more than once?" If they are not asking more than once, then they will get where they need to be eventually.

    On an unrelated note, my attempts at dating have gone poorly. It's either hit a dating site with the general public and go through tons of women who are uninteresting to find someone who shares interest with me, or hit up the geek dating sites and hope the few women who are on them will notice me through the literal tidal wave of other men. Worse, considering that rule zero of online dating is don't be a creeper; its super frustrating when most of the other guys on the sites can't even clear that bar, and I'm still not getting any contact back.

    No advise needed, just needed to rant. On the plus side, there is a dating event at an upcoming convention I'm planning to attend. So that will be nice.
    Good luck at the con dating! I don't have much advice for the online dating besides to keep putting yourself out there, keep sending messages when you're interested (and asking leading questions so they have good reason to message back) and keep not being a creeper! Be interesting, and you might break through the wall of creep.

    Also, don't be afraid to message the women on the general dating sites who seem nice but don't necessarily state that they share your geeky interests. Some have just never gotten a chance to try and will enjoy them with you, and some may not but will at least respect your interests and help you enjoy them. My gaming group has a mix of people with and without gaming spouses and all are quite happy because the non-gamers still respect and enable the geek hobbies.

    Speaking from experience, yes it's amazing to find a significant other who enjoys your geeky hobbies with you, but you might be excluding some truly wonderful people who you could enjoy a great life with.

    Good luck!

  20. - Top - End - #260
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    The reason I say that has to do with other people that described their first week. Aside from the inevitable mistakes and bad luck that usually happens when starting a new job, they seem to describe an opposite situation. They all said that it's OK to take your time and don't be afraid to ask questions. My experience has been more, "Pick up the pace! Wasn't that already explained to you? Didn't Rory (not really a name of anyone there,) already show you how to do that? Why are you so slow?" "What do you mean you've never seen one of those before? Aren't you in school for this?"

    The takeaway from being told things like that from my second day onward is 1: I'm starting out with a below average skill level for a beginner. 2: I'm here to work, not to learn.

    Predictably, I'm making mistakes in trying to go faster which slows everyone down even more and increases the workload for everyone.
    The trainer is bad. They don't understand how to train.

    In The Mythical Man-Month, Fred Brooks' classic work on managing software projects, he estimates that when a new programmer is added to a project, it takes three to six months before they start making a net-positive contribution. This because, of course, new people don't know what they are doing yet and have to ask the skilled people lots of questions. This is what is expected when you hire a new person in a technical field -- several months of them trying to learn their way around, bugging the experienced people with questions, and making mistakes that the experienced people have to correct.

    If your trainer expects you to be net-positive in 1 day, that means your trainer doesn't understand how the world works, not that you are doing anything wrong.

    I don't have any practical advice for you beyond keep trying anyways, and read documentation when available, but know that the trainer is being unrealistic.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Ours is basically

    Explanation and handout
    Watch them do it
    Do it with guidance
    As normal once you are comfortable

    Similarly for us it's better to avoid mistakes. it's better to fix mistakes ASAP. It's better to handle stuff in our own department if possible.

  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    I feel like I've behaved badly in my last few posts here, so I apologize.

    Work is going a little bit better, though I still feel... a little cheated. I worked pretty hard to qualify for my job but I still feel like an easily replaceable cog. So all that effort feels a little like a lateral move. It could be worse I guess. At least I'm not doing customer service anymore.

    On another note, even though I've struggled with depression and anxiety nearly my entire life, I've been pretty good about not letting it show. I feel like now I'm slipping badly.
    Iop brain.

  23. - Top - End - #263
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    My best-friend had a job testing the engines for a truck manufacturer. He wanted to try a different job, got an electrical degree, and transferred to another department. The other department did not want to train him on how to do the job, because he had more years at the company, and was getting paid more than they were. People can suck.

  24. - Top - End - #264
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    Hey. No judging this whole therapy thing. But i feel the best "therapy" is sharing with your close friends about stuff that you can't stomach. Some sport to get anger out your system. Having a healthy sex life. And being able to bottle up everything that you can't change and smile through life.

    Therapy finds all the parts of yourself that you hate and brings them up front. As a result you start hating yourself and need more therapy. it's a vicious cyrcle.

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  25. - Top - End - #265
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    Hey. No judging this whole therapy thing. But i feel the best "therapy" is sharing with your close friends about stuff that you can't stomach. Some sport to get anger out your system. Having a healthy sex life. And being able to bottle up everything that you can't change and smile through life.

    Therapy finds all the parts of yourself that you hate and brings them up front. As a result you start hating yourself and need more therapy. it's a vicious cyrcle.
    That's all well and good I guess. Though people like me that are fairly isolated don't really have close friends, much less sexual partners.

    Maybe therapy does bring up the parts of yourself that you hate, but I spend a lot of time alone with thoughts like that anyway. Not that therapy has been that successful for me, mind you.
    Iop brain.

  26. - Top - End - #266
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    I feel like I've behaved badly in my last few posts here, so I apologize.
    You've done no such thing. Apology not necessary. What is this thread for, after all, but to air grievances and talk with people about them?

    I think all that's happened is you brought up an issue (bad trainers) that people feel passionately about, myself included. If you felt anger in some of the responses, be assured it wasn't towards you but rather your coworker/trainer.

    Work is going a little bit better, though I still feel... a little cheated. I worked pretty hard to qualify for my job but I still feel like an easily replaceable cog. So all that effort feels a little like a lateral move. It could be worse I guess. At least I'm not doing customer service anymore.

    On another note, even though I've struggled with depression and anxiety nearly my entire life, I've been pretty good about not letting it show. I feel like now I'm slipping badly.
    We all slip at times, and starting a new job is stressful. One thing I might recommend is instead of focusing on "not letting it show", give yourself a place/time where you can let it all show through for a bit without judgement. Having a trusted friend who you can do this with (or even just coming on this thread and venting occasionally) can be a huge help, and can sometimes help you keep your depression from interfering with other parts of your life.
    Last edited by ve4grm; 2019-08-19 at 10:56 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #267
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    ..Um, Asmotherion, you do realise that your statement is somewhat equivalent to: "I do not get being poor. You just need some money, or a lot of it, then you are not poor."


    There is a proverb: "Problems that we are not working on, will work in ourselves." You might be lucky and/or strong enough to not need to face your inner demons, or not have any. In that case, power be to you. For those of us who are struggling, though, therapy was and is being developed to help those in need.

    Therapy in and of itself can not yield results, that is true. The inner work has to be done by the patient. A good therapist can guide you to your problems. A great one can offer ways to work on them, can find words to help you find your own words. But the workload is still on the patient. And said patient is usually not in the position to actually work on him- or herself a lot, due to many factors which contributed to the mental stress in the first place. Sometimes those living conditions need to be changed first. And sometimes, that is simply not possible.

    And then there are the Therapists who want quick solutions, who do not listen, who have a fixed idea themselves about the person in front of them and do not even realise it, who are stuck on a one-way-process-mindset.. or in some cases are even malicious.

    Still. I only got forward when i spoke to someone, when i knew that my voice was being heard. And i was lucky enough some great people, who happened to be therapists, were among them and answered. People who saw what i hate about myself.. and are still part of my life.

    Not just bringing those hateful thoughts to the front. Being there for me when i try to overcome them.

    A good therapist is never your friend. But they can be there for you.

    If you are lucky enough to have friends as well, who will be there week after week, year after year, then yeah.. you are indeed lucky. Sometimes, all we have is a friendly voice out in the darkness.

    Do not discourage those who found such a voice. If the therapy in question is indeed a vicious cycle of self-loathing.. then it is not a therapy worth its name.
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  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adaon Nightwind View Post
    ..Um, Asmotherion, you do realise that your statement is somewhat equivalent to: "I do not get being poor. You just need some money, or a lot of it, then you are not poor."


    There is a proverb: "Problems that we are not working on, will work in ourselves." You might be lucky and/or strong enough to not need to face your inner demons, or not have any. In that case, power be to you. For those of us who are struggling, though, therapy was and is being developed to help those in need.

    Therapy in and of itself can not yield results, that is true. The inner work has to be done by the patient. A good therapist can guide you to your problems. A great one can offer ways to work on them, can find words to help you find your own words. But the workload is still on the patient. And said patient is usually not in the position to actually work on him- or herself a lot, due to many factors which contributed to the mental stress in the first place. Sometimes those living conditions need to be changed first. And sometimes, that is simply not possible.

    And then there are the Therapists who want quick solutions, who do not listen, who have a fixed idea themselves about the person in front of them and do not even realise it, who are stuck on a one-way-process-mindset.. or in some cases are even malicious.

    Still. I only got forward when i spoke to someone, when i knew that my voice was being heard. And i was lucky enough some great people, who happened to be therapists, were among them and answered. People who saw what i hate about myself.. and are still part of my life.

    Not just bringing those hateful thoughts to the front. Being there for me when i try to overcome them.

    A good therapist is never your friend. But they can be there for you.

    If you are lucky enough to have friends as well, who will be there week after week, year after year, then yeah.. you are indeed lucky. Sometimes, all we have is a friendly voice out in the darkness.

    Do not discourage those who found such a voice. If the therapy in question is indeed a vicious cycle of self-loathing.. then it is not a therapy worth its name.
    i don't discourage anything or encourage anything. i'm just raising a point that some things are better left buried deep in yourself as long as you're highly functional rather than focused on and turn you into a shell of yourself.

    if it's helping you process things in life good for you. However some people don't need a total stranger digging through their personal experiances and pushing them through a guilt trip.

    As for strong friendships i believe one of the founding stones is sharing your pains with them and be there for theirs. Sure there will be some that will eventually prove they were not worth your time but that's how life is: learning through trial and error. There will also be people who amaze you by being there for you.

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  29. - Top - End - #269
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    You've done no such thing. Apology not necessary. What is this thread for, after all, but to air grievances and talk with people about them?

    I think all that's happened is you brought up an issue (bad trainers) that people feel passionately about, myself included. If you felt anger in some of the responses, be assured it wasn't towards you but rather your coworker/trainer.
    Oh, OK. I guess I imagine that when I feel bad I'm also behaving badly. I apologize that I sort of have to be vague on details, but part of the job does entail some tasks that, if done improperly, could seriously hurt someone. The latest coaching I got is that I usually need help with these tasks and I should be able to do them on my own.

    I think at this point it's fair to say that I'm a poor fit for this job. I turned in my two weeks notice today.

    Quote Originally Posted by ve4grm View Post
    We all slip at times, and starting a new job is stressful. One thing I might recommend is instead of focusing on "not letting it show", give yourself a place/time where you can let it all show through for a bit without judgement. Having a trusted friend who you can do this with (or even just coming on this thread and venting occasionally) can be a huge help, and can sometimes help you keep your depression from interfering with other parts of your life.
    I wish I could share stuff like this with close friends, I really do. The difficulty is that they seem to prefer that I didn't. As it is my depression and anxiety already colors my entire personality. Even my whole thing with "not letting it show" is more of a coping mechanism, (which seems to be breaking down.) So I try telling jokes to keep from being so sad all the time and I talk a lot when I'm nervous, (I'm hardly ever not nervous.) So folks usually get the wrong idea about me and it catches them off guard when I say something related to feeling hopeless and disposable.

    I think what's different now is that I'm visibly depressed, to the point that I've been asked by random strangers on the street if I was alright. More than once, even. I'm not sure that I'm OK with this.
    Last edited by The Fury; 2019-08-20 at 07:53 AM.
    Iop brain.

  30. - Top - End - #270
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    Default Re: Personal Woes and Advice 6

    So it turns out, after me getting very irritated with a therapist, that I have ADHD. And I've been talking to other femaleish persons about this. It's apparently a definite and very common problem; the initial diagnosis for people seen as female is usually anxiety, or depression, or sometimes bipolar. It often takes quite some time to get a proper diagnosis.

    The meds actually are helping a bit. But I just feel frustrated. It was very clear that the initial person they had me seeing didn't believe me when I said that it wasn't anxiety. It was clear that the process she was going on was to try to guide me to understanding how my underlying anxiety and distorted thinking were causing my inability to focus, so we could work on that in therapy. If it had been before, at a time when I wasn't so confident and had a decent idea of what I was looking at and was confident in my ability to just refuse to do anxiety treatment again, it wouldn't have helped at all. And we'd likely have ended up going down the same route of trying to dig deeper and deeper to find the root of my anxiety

    Some of my prior noncompliance symptoms were probably also ADHD related. Some of it's stuff like repeatedly losing homework from therapy or forgetting it. Therapists generally treated this like some sort of resistance to therapy specifically. Some of it might be just trying to explore my anxieties around certain issues. Turns out the answer "I don't know, I just can't get my brain to do that!" was actually the right one. But again, that's not an ok answer in therapy.
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