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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Welcome to Round 32 of the Villainous Competition!

    Previous Competitions


    We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

    Contestants:
    You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15 CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

    Secret Laboratory:
    Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons.
    Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.

    Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the assumed ability score generation method.
    Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

    Deadlines:
    Contestants will have until 23:59 MST Saturday May 18th to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 23:59 MST Saturday June 1st to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

    Judging:
    Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.
    Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
    Originality - Is it unexpected?
    Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
    Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
    Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG players long to finally kill and then talk about for weeks?
    Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 1 if it makes the field unfair.)
    Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
    You may not judge if you entered the contest, unless you withdraw your submission.

    Presentation:
    Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

    Note:
    There is now a hard limit on two (2) entries per competitor.

    Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
    Show
    CR Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
    Show
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]CR[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    You can use the table below for Spells.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code Immediately Below,
    Spoiler
    Show

    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    Speculation:
    Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
    Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

    Get ready to share those Evil thoughts. This edition’s villain is:

    Dr. NO!
    I want to...NO!, Ok, how about.. NO!!


    Limitations


    • Specialist in Denying actions of PC’s, the more the better
    • BFC, Dispels, etc
    • Can NOT use Time Stop
    • Can NOT be a greater doppleganger, ethereal doppleganger, mind flayer, or elemental weird
    • Must be Evil


    We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.
    So, start your evil plotting!

    Submission:
    To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

    PM: Jdizzlean
    Subject: Villainous Competition 32, Name of your Entry
    For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
    More questions? PM me with Villainous Competition 32 Questions in the header.

    Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:
    - Use capitalization and punctuation, correctly.
    - Make good use of Spoilers, for cleanliness.
    - Don't forget your sources. If it's something that can be found in the contents section, then book title seems to be fine. Obscure stuff, may want to include page number too.
    - DeviantArt has about 9 billion pictures that you can reference, I can almost guarantee you can find one there to fit your character.
    - Make good use of tables. In addition to the Build table and the Spells table, I like doing on e for my Ability Scores, just to keep it neat.
    - Do a build stub at the top of your Build Table, something like Wizard 2/Fighter 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10


    As always: let's keep it nice.

    I'll mention that again - LET'S KEEP IT NICE! Bickering, name calling and nasty comments on the entries or other forum members are not tolerated.


    New competition rule: if I feel an individual has been overly disruptive during the course of competition discussion, I will not be accepting and revealing any entries from that individual, and they will also not be allowed to judge. Any judging they enter will not be taken into account for the final tally.

    Spoiler
    Show
    It's sad that it had to come to this, but here's a list of permanently banned (from this Villainous Competition) members:

    Novolin
    Yklikt
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2019-04-23 at 11:58 AM.


    Medals
    Spoiler
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    More sources, more choices, more power. Welcome to D&D.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Clarifications

    Unearthed Arcana variant rules are limited: The variant character options (such as Wildshape Ranger and Thug Fighter) should not be penalized. Flaws and traits may be penalized by judges, whereas item familiars, gestalt, alternate skill systems, alternate magic systems, alternate crafting rules, generic base classes, LA buyoff, fractional saves/BAB, and bloodlines are banned. Anything not mentioned here is up to individual judges.

    d20 Rokugan is not allowed material.

    The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

    Leadership is banned. Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.

    However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

    On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
    - I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it!
    - For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 message, if at all possible.
    - For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Ooh, do I ever have an evil idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.
    Iron Chef XCVII, Aerial Avenger, Gold: Hank, the Highly Endangered Northwest Pacific Tree Octopus

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    Villainous Competition XXXII, Oh Hell No!, Bronze and HM: Futility

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    If we're using a monster class, do we count each class level as +1 CR or can we just add the CR of the monster instead?
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.
    Iron Chef XCVII, Aerial Avenger, Gold: Hank, the Highly Endangered Northwest Pacific Tree Octopus

    Gamerwarpers Optimization Challenge #4, Great and Terrible Werebeasts, Gold: The Wendigo, aka Paul

    Villainous Competition XXXII, Oh Hell No!, Bronze and HM: Futility

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    If we're using a monster class, do we count each class level as +1 CR or can we just add the CR of the monster instead?
    Both.

    Meaning if you use a Monster ala Entry, where it ahs Class Levels, you use the specified CR.

    If you apply Class Levels to an existing monsters, each Level adds +1 CR.

    If you mean the Mosnter CLasses from Savage Species, normally using the Mosnter lets us keep the CR lower, as the SS Classes work with ECL not CR:



    Also: THats an interesting Concept. Troll Villains. Lets see ......
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2019-04-22 at 03:41 PM.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    I don;t have any ideas jumping to mind, but I like the round theme and I'll hopefully be able to work something up...

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Is this specifically about countering actions, or is anything that locks down or otherwise denies actions at all acceptable?

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Is this specifically about countering actions, or is anything that locks down or otherwise denies actions at all acceptable?
    I guess from the guidelines that locking down is a valid tactic, since they reference BFC, so presumably there won't be any issues with that.

    I have got some ideas stewing, hopefully I'll be able to get in something decent!
    WINNER! Villainous Competition XXXII: Selene, Bride of Ruin
    Silver Medallist Villainous Competition XXVI: Faras Alnahr, Dark Scion of the Hippo God


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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Is this specifically about countering actions, or is anything that locks down or otherwise denies actions at all acceptable?
    yes.

    or all of that.

    or all of that and some more things.

    or, ALL of that and ALL the things for great power!!!!

    /evil evil laugh

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Just nitpicking. This should be round 33, a lot of formatting states 32.

    Edit: I see now. The previous was misnamed. My b.
    Last edited by Buufreak; 2019-04-23 at 09:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    i dunno what you're talking about

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Not sure if edited or I'm seriously that blind.

    Going with A, considering the OP of round 31.
    Last edited by Buufreak; 2019-04-23 at 02:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    I may've edited it, ninja style....


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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    I wanna do it, thougb I think everyone's gonna take [REDACTED] so I'm getting cold feet. Also my ashtma is killing me.

    By the way, since someone touched upon it, are we allowed to use nonassociated class levels?

    Quote Originally Posted by MM p.294
    If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength (such as adding a sorcerer level to a frost giant), the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    I wanna do it, thougb I think everyone's gonna take [REDACTED] so I'm getting cold feet. Also my ashtma is killing me.

    By the way, since someone touched upon it, are we allowed to use nonassociated class levels?
    The specified ruling for these contests as stated in the opening posts is:
    All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO![

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    The specified ruling for these contests as stated in the opening posts is:
    Oh, ty, didn't see that.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    I think I need to get a bit more specific with my question. I'm doing a monstrous character, and for spoilery reasons it would be most convenient to do so via "monster class levels" of the kind found in Savage Species, Libris Mortis, and the savage progressions from the online enhancements (maybe a few other places, too). However, the viability of this drops significantly if every one of these levels adds +1 to the total CR. Can I just add the CR of the original monster instead?
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.
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    Gamerwarpers Optimization Challenge #4, Great and Terrible Werebeasts, Gold: The Wendigo, aka Paul

    Villainous Competition XXXII, Oh Hell No!, Bronze and HM: Futility

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I think I need to get a bit more specific with my question. I'm doing a monstrous character, and for spoilery reasons it would be most convenient to do so via "monster class levels" of the kind found in Savage Species, Libris Mortis, and the savage progressions from the online enhancements (maybe a few other places, too). However, the viability of this drops significantly if every one of these levels adds +1 to the total CR. Can I just add the CR of the original monster instead?
    If the monster advances by HD, you can add HD instead of class levels. For instance, an Undead only increases by +1 CR for 4 Undead HD.

    You can also put on class levels after the RHD if you like.

    To give an example (unlikely to come up in this comp, I hope) - take a Mummy: 8 RHD, CR 5. You could add on another 8 RHD of Undead, to bring the CR up to 7. You could then tack on 13 class levels to bring it to 20...

    If the creature increases in size from Medium to Large or larger, you add another +1 CR.

    For instance, if I advance a Mummy to 24HD, it becomes large. CR 5, +4 (16 Undead HD), +1 (size) = CR 10. You could add on another 10 class levels to bring it up to 20.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    If the monster advances by HD, you can add HD instead of class levels. For instance, an Undead only increases by +1 CR for 4 Undead HD.
    Interesting (and potentially useful), but not quite what I'm after. I'm looking for the CR of the default monster, and hoping it stays the same even if added to the build via a monster class. To continue with the example of Mummy:

    You could make a Mummy by starting with the Mummy monster as found in MMI as the base: CR 5, pure and simple. Or, you could start with a different monster/build/thing (let's use the Libris Mortis example of Minotaur, CR 4) and give it the 13 levels in the Mummy class from the same book. For the purposes of this competition, would its CR be 4 original + 5 Mummy = 9 CR total, or would it be 4 original + 13 class levels = 17 CR total even though the class levels are just recreating the Mummy's stats?
    Quote Originally Posted by OgresAreCute View Post
    Realism, the natural predator of D&D mechanics.
    Iron Chef XCVII, Aerial Avenger, Gold: Hank, the Highly Endangered Northwest Pacific Tree Octopus

    Gamerwarpers Optimization Challenge #4, Great and Terrible Werebeasts, Gold: The Wendigo, aka Paul

    Villainous Competition XXXII, Oh Hell No!, Bronze and HM: Futility

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    some judges consider the date of a publication in terms of it's relevance as well. I usually don't, but take that under advisement.

    now, that said, if you're applying a template to something, it has it's own CR adjustment and you're done w/ that. If you're using a savage species progression, it will have it's own cr adjustment of 1 cr/level. If you were to find the template and it only cost you 5 cr for that, but the progression was 10, you'd have to decide which of those is better for your build and scale accordingly.

    so it all comes down to what source you're using in the first place as to how it interacts with your entry.


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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    As usual, I’m not likely to be able to enter, but I really like the theme of this one!
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Please come participate in the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground E6 Appetizer Edition! We're currently judging for Round 17!

    My compiled Iron Chef stuff!

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    To give an example (unlikely to come up in this comp, I hope) - take a Mummy: 8 RHD, CR 5. You could add on another 8 RHD of Undead, to bring the CR up to 7. You could then tack on 13 class levels to bring it to 20...
    Question: If, in this example, one were to only give it 7 RHD... would the rounding down rule apply, and the CR increase be +1?
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    I guess I'll amend my original statement and instead say that Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5 to spark an argument about how close it actually is.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    In a converse vein, it is rather cheesy to take only the first level of a savage progression and still call yourself monstrous. At that point you are essentially any phb race with a coat of paint.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    In a converse vein, it is rather cheesy to take only the first level of a savage progression and still call yourself monstrous. At that point you are essentially any phb race with a coat of paint.
    Unless the rule has been explicitly stricken, the savage progressions state that once you begin one, you must complete it before you move on to something else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    I guess I'll amend my original statement and instead say that Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5 to spark an argument about how close it actually is.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Interesting (and potentially useful), but not quite what I'm after. I'm looking for the CR of the default monster, and hoping it stays the same even if added to the build via a monster class. To continue with the example of Mummy:

    You could make a Mummy by starting with the Mummy monster as found in MMI as the base: CR 5, pure and simple. Or, you could start with a different monster/build/thing (let's use the Libris Mortis example of Minotaur, CR 4) and give it the 13 levels in the Mummy class from the same book. For the purposes of this competition, would its CR be 4 original + 5 Mummy = 9 CR total, or would it be 4 original + 13 class levels = 17 CR total even though the class levels are just recreating the Mummy's stats?
    I'm not sure this is actually rules-legal. "Mummy" isn't a template (though "mummified creature" is). The monstrous class is for starting play as a Mummy at a level below what it's HD+LA would normally call for, not for combining it with other things.

    So, for instance, with the Minotaur you want to advance into Mummy, you would be better off looking deeper into Libris Mortis at the "Mummified Creature" template and applying that. The CR adjustment of the template would apply to the CR of the Minotaur, and then you could add class levels after that.

    Now, I know "Mummy" and "Minotaur" are placeholders, but if you're trying to advance one monster using another monster's savage progression, you probably can't, by the RAW. Your best bet is to look for a template version of the thing you're trying to add. There likely is one, somewhere, if it makes sense to transform the one creature into the other the way the savage progression being added on would imply.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I'm not sure this is actually rules-legal. "Mummy" isn't a template (though "mummified creature" is). The monstrous class is for starting play as a Mummy at a level below what it's HD+LA would normally call for, not for combining it with other things.

    So, for instance, with the Minotaur you want to advance into Mummy, you would be better off looking deeper into Libris Mortis at the "Mummified Creature" template and applying that. The CR adjustment of the template would apply to the CR of the Minotaur, and then you could add class levels after that.

    Now, I know "Mummy" and "Minotaur" are placeholders, but if you're trying to advance one monster using another monster's savage progression, you probably can't, by the RAW. Your best bet is to look for a template version of the thing you're trying to add. There likely is one, somewhere, if it makes sense to transform the one creature into the other the way the savage progression being added on would imply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Libris Mortis, Entering an Undead Class
    Normally, the only way to take a level of a monster class, such as those described in this chapter, is to be that monster. A minotaur cannot freely multiclass as a mummy, nor can a dwarf take levels as a vampire spawn whenever he desires.
    However, since these undead classes by definition represent a creature transformed from one form into another, an existing character can “become” one of these monsters, thus (intentionally or not) multiclassing into that monster class.
    When a living character becomes one of these forms of undead—for instance, a dwarf fighter slain by a vampire’s energy drain attack who rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days later—he loses one class level, much as if he had died and been raised. If the character has only one class level, he loses that class level and all features thereof. He then gains one level of the appropriate undead class. Effectively, the undead class level replaces another class level.
    If the character has no class levels, he simply gains one level of the appropriate undead class and may multiclass freely between that undead class and normal class levels.
    Examples: A 5th-level dwarf fighter is slain by a vampire’senergy drain attack. A few days after burial, he rises as a dwarf 4th-level fi ghter/1st-level vampire spawn. A gnoll with no class levels slain by the same vampire rises as a gnoll 1st-level vampire spawn.
    The undead monster classes described below have special rules regarding multiclassing. Normally, a monster can’t multiclass between its monster class and its other class levels until it completes the full progression in its monster class. These classes work a little differently. When a character begins taking levels in one of the undead monster classes presented here, he must progress all the way through the class’s levels before multiclassing in any other class, including another monster class. A character can interrupt the progression of a normal monster class to take levels in an undead monster class, but must then advance all the way through the undead monster class and then finish the
    progression of his normal monster class before taking levels in any other classes. A character cannot have levels in more than one undead monster class.
    Example: A character begins play using the minotaur monster class from Savage Species. The character advances to 3rd level as a minotaur and then multiclasses into the ghoul/ghast undead monster class. The character must then advance all the way through the ghoul/ghast monster class before taking any other levels, eventually becoming an 11th-level character with three levels in minoutar and eight in ghoul/ghast. Then the character must return to the minotaur class until completing its progression, becoming a 6th-level minotaur/8th-level ghast. From then on, the character can take class levels normally.
    Characters who take levels in an undead monster class retain all their normal class abilities, with one exception: A cleric who becomes undead loses any ability to turn undead, but gains the ability to rebuke undead.
    Unfortunately unless there is a minotaur savage progression somewhere other than savage species then I can't continue the above example. But I believe the bolded parts may be relevant, and the undead savage progression would adjust the cr by 1/level by RAW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    Unfortunately unless there is a minotaur savage progression somewhere other than savage species then I can't continue the above example. But I believe the bolded parts may be relevant, and the undead savage progression would adjust the cr by 1/level by RAW.
    I stand corrected. That's an interesting way to turn those undead progressions into templates, since this means you can now slap them onto any monster you like.

    It may not make sense, but you can. I'm amused by the notion of a mummy-stone golem.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I stand corrected. That's an interesting way to turn those undead progressions into templates, since this means you can now slap them onto any monster you like.

    It may not make sense, but you can. I'm amused by the notion of a mummy-stone golem.
    It unfortunately specifies in each Undead Savage Progression which races can take classes in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I am continually astounded by how new you are here in contrast to how impressive your mind is.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kool View Post
    Question: If, in this example, one were to only give it 7 RHD... would the rounding down rule apply, and the CR increase be +1?
    yes, until you hit the 4HD threshold, it would only be +1, be wary of the cheese hammer hitting you depending on what you're doing that for or when in your build that happens.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXII: Oh HELL NO!

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    yes, until you hit the 4HD threshold, it would only be +1, be wary of the cheese hammer hitting you depending on what you're doing that for or when in your build that happens.
    That is entirely fair. For obvious example, squeezing in those extra HD for more epic feats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    I guess I'll amend my original statement and instead say that Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5 to spark an argument about how close it actually is.

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