Is Ascendant Step at Will Flight for a Chain-lock?

[tieren]

Ascendant step is a warlock invocation (level 9 prerequisite) that gives at will levitation (uses concentration though) on yourself.

Levitation allows magical up and down movement only, and lateral movement is possible by pushing off a physical object (like pulling yourself along a ceiling or pushing off from a wall, etc...).

There is no mention of how much force is required for lateral movement. We have push/pull rules, but I believe there is a clear intention for that to apply along the ground (ie with friction) and not for a floating object.

So the scenario is I have a halfling chain pact warlock and level 9 is coming up. If I am floating with my levitation, how hard would it be for an invisible flying familiar to tow me in the direction I want to go?

Now I think it is related, but I don't want to get into whether an imp is just strong enough to fly around carrying a 45 lb halfling/gnome or not. That always seemed a bit too cheesy for me, but just getting towed along when I've invested in the invocation seems about right to me.

Would you allow it? How would you handle the speed (ie any penalty)?

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd probably allow it, as it's a pretty expensive combo to abuse, but I'd probably make it at 50% movement rate. Considering this is a hefty limitation to your movement and the usability of your Familiar, I don't see it being a big deal, especially since you can just move yourself with objects while levitating anyway.

[Chronos]

50% of the familiar's movement looks right, because that's how fast it would move if carrying a grappled creature with it. Yes, there's no friction, but that's already accounted for by the fact that the familiar's flying speed is faster than most walking speeds.

[GorogIrongut]

If I were DM'ing, I wouldn't put any strictures. Your character is levitating and thus has no weight (and if a halfling/gnome has negligible mass). I see no reason to stop your character from having lots of semi awkward but otherwise uninhibited flying fun.

If you tried to do something complicated, like a coordinated swoop down to catch a falling treasure/child/toupee, then I'd probably make you do some ability checks. But otherwise, I consider your invocation/pact investment in a sub par invocation and arguably the weakest pact, to be enough of a tax for you to get up to all kinds of shenanigans.

[Man_Over_Game]

If I were DM'ing, I wouldn't put any strictures. Your character is levitating and thus has no weight (and if a halfling/gnome has negligible mass). I see no reason to stop your character from having lots of semi awkward but otherwise uninhibited flying fun.

If you tried to do something complicated, like a coordinated swoop down to catch a falling treasure/child/toupee, then I'd probably make you do some ability checks. But otherwise, I consider your invocation/pact investment in a sub par invocation and arguably the weakest pact, to be enough of a tax for you to get up to all kinds of shenanigans.

I don't think I've ever heard "Weakest" and "Familiar" in the same sentence, unless it was something like "Everything is considered the weakest, as long as a Familiar is an option".

[Galithar]

I have to second that Pact of the Blade is almost universally considered the weakest. It takes far more investment to get any sort of appreciable return then chain does. Simply having an always invisible long range scout allows it to be very beneficial with no additional invocation investment.

Chain can often even be better than Tome, assuming that you're in a party who's ritual needs are covered by others.

But on topic, I would allow full movement. The cost of what you're doing is in my mind equivalent to your gain. I would also not be afraid to kill off your towboat so you have to slowly drift to the ground though :P

[Rukelnikov]

I have to second that Pact of the Blade is almost universally considered the weakest. It takes far more investment to get any sort of appreciable return then chain does. Simply having an always invisible long range scout allows it to be very beneficial with no additional invocation investment.

Chain can often even be better than Tome, assuming that you're in a party who's ritual needs are covered by others.

But on topic, I would allow full movement. The cost of what you're doing is in my mind equivalent to your gain. I would also not be afraid to kill off your towboat so you have to slowly drift to the ground though :P

I took Chain and Ritual Caster and didn't regret it for a second.

Voice of the Chain Master and the improved familiars were more than worth it.

[Talionis]

Speed isn’t an issue maneuverability is the issue. Half speed of Familiar is okay so is full speed but you should be unable to do anything complex. Changes in direction are hard. Controlling the push verbally is not precise. If you have velocity it takes thrust to stop and to change direction.

But by the time this comes online casters have access to fly spell.

[Crgaston]

Speed isn’t an issue maneuverability is the issue...it takes thrust...

I see your Familiar and raise you a Decanter of Endless Water

[Bloodcloud]

Consideringit still take your concentration, it seems quite alright.

[tieren]

Speed isn’t an issue maneuverability is the issue. Half speed of Familiar is okay so is full speed but you should be unable to do anything complex. Changes in direction are hard. Controlling the push verbally is not precise. If you have velocity it takes thrust to stop and to change direction.

But by the time this comes online casters have access to fly spell.

I'm definitely picturing more mary poppins type flight and not superman.

I'm archfey so primarily use the sprite familiar for flavor reasons.

I'm picturing strafing 20 feet above the battle holding his invisible feet in one hand and raining EBS down with the other.

[Urukubarr]

I agree that this sounds fine, and find it to be a thematic way for a chain warlock to "fly"

the only thing that comes to mind is even though your levitating do you still have mass? I imagine it would not be too hard for the familiar to get you moving but imagine it being very hard to change direction rapidly, turning would be more akin to drifting a car or tubing behind a boat, as your familiar would be trying to drag you in a new direction as your mass continues on its original trajectory, sounds fun though.

[R.Shackleford]

I see your Familiar and raise you a Decanter of Endless Water

That's one way to get a halfling to the moon.

[tieren]

I agree that this sounds fine, and find it to be a thematic way for a chain warlock to "fly"

the only thing that comes to mind is even though your levitating do you still have mass? I imagine it would not be too hard for the familiar to get you moving but imagine it being very hard to change direction rapidly, turning would be more akin to drifting a car or tubing behind a boat, as your familiar would be trying to drag you in a new direction as your mass continues on its original trajectory, sounds fun though.

I hadn't thought much of the maneuvering mechanics, but I love that visual. Trying to turn and banking wildly, maybe bumping into walls, etc... Could be fun.

I think I would give him half speed to break my inertia and get me moving laterally the first turn and regular speed towing along in a straight line.

Turns, perhaps if the flier turns 90 degrees, plot out an arc in that direction for my character to swing past instead, maybe with a radius equal to the speed I was going divided by 2 (30 foot speed takes a 15 foot radius turn to go 90 degrees).

Stopping would be a similar issue, the familiar would need to back pedal or fly in the opposite direction. I'd say first turn he tries to do that momentum still carries us forward at half speed, next turn he can overcome it to bring us to a stop, next turn start off at half speed in a new direction (if desired).

I am aware I could take the fly spell instead, but as a warlock I have a limited number of spell slots, so finding ways to use non-spell slot solutions appeals to me.

[Unoriginal]

Which elements make you think the spell keeps you in the air if you move horizontally?

Does that mean enemies who got Telekinesis cast on them can be moved without issues by their allies?

[tieren]

Which elements make you think the spell keeps you in the air if you move horizontally?

Does that mean enemies who got Telekinesis cast on them can be moved without issues by their allies?

I would say the first sentence of the second paragraph of the levitate spell:

"The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing."

I haven't looked at telekinesis and make no assertions in regards to it.

A creature moving along a ceiling seems to indicate horizontal movement is possible without ending the spell.

[Rukelnikov]

Which elements make you think the spell keeps you in the air if you move horizontally?

Does that mean enemies who got Telekinesis cast on them can be moved without issues by their allies?

Its the other way round. Where does it say the spell ends if you are moved horizontally?

TK calls for a check IIRC, levitate doesnt.

[Unoriginal]

I would say the first sentence of the second paragraph of the levitate spell:

"The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing."

I haven't looked at telekinesis and make no assertions in regards to it.

A creature moving along a ceiling seems to indicate horizontal movement is possible without ending the spell.

You're right, it seems I mixed up spells and their effects. I apologize.

In that case, then the familiar would need to grapple the levitating warlock and move them with the usual movement cost for doing so.

[tieren]

In that case, then the familiar would need to grapple the levitating warlock and move them with the usual movement cost for doing so.

Yes, looking at everything I think the RAW answer is to treat it as moving a grappled creature, so 1/2 the flying speed would be appropriate (of course the familiar can take the Dash action every turn to get mt to full speed.)

I guess the larger academic question is how the rules for moving a grappled creature interact with the limits for the amount of weight you can push and pull, and then how those rules apply (or not) to objects floating via levitation.

[Unoriginal]

I guess the larger academic question is how the rules for moving a grappled creature interact with the limits for the amount of weight you can push and pull

Specifically, they don't.

Some time ago I made a thread about making the heaviest character possible so as to be impossible to move, but as it turns out the grappling rules don't care about weight, only size categories.

Which is why there is basically no mention of monsters' weights in the MM.

EDIT:

Of course that means that a Medium Warlock couldn't be moved by a Tiny familiar, due to the grappling rules.

[Rukelnikov]

Yes, looking at everything I think the RAW answer is to treat it as moving a grappled creature, so 1/2 the flying speed would be appropriate (of course the familiar can take the Dash action every turn to get mt to full speed.)

I guess the larger academic question is how the rules for moving a grappled creature interact with the limits for the amount of weight you can push and pull, and then how those rules apply (or not) to objects floating via levitation.

But you are not grappling, the moved creature is willing. If you are carrying a downed companion you are not moving at half speed unless your carrying capacity is slowing you.

I don't see how this is different.

[tieren]

Specifically, they don't.

Some time ago I made a thread about making the heaviest character possible so as to be impossible to move, but as it turns out the grappling rules don't care about weight, only size categories.

Which is why there is basically no mention of monsters' weights in the MM.

EDIT:

Of course that means that a Medium Warlock couldn't be moved by a Tiny familiar, due to the grappling rules.

RAW that may be true, but I have a hard time imagining an 8 strength human wizard, with a carrying capacity of 120 lbs and able to push/pull up to 240 lbs, grappling and dragging an enlarged goliath weighing 2720 lbs (340 lbs x8 per enlarge spell).

[Rukelnikov]

RAW that may be true, but I have a hard time imagining an 8 strength human wizard, with a carrying capacity of 120 lbs and able to push/pull up to 240 lbs, grappling and dragging an enlarged goliath weighing 2720 lbs (340 lbs x8 per enlarge spell).

RAW, if the wizard has fly casted on himself, he can effectively lift said goliath too.

[OvisCaedo]

Huh. I'd never really looked at that exact phrasing before on levitate, but... By RAW, it seems to say the target can only move by pulling themself across a surface. I think another outside force moving them around is still valid, but now I'm wondering if that means a target with a fly speed would effectively be suspended in place. Can't imagine that being the intent either way, though.

[tieren]

Huh. I'd never really looked at that exact phrasing before on levitate, but... By RAW, it seems to say the target can only move by pulling themself across a surface. I think another outside force moving them around is still valid, but now I'm wondering if that means a target with a fly speed would effectively be suspended in place. Can't imagine that being the intent either way, though.

I can't imagine they intend for levitate to prevent flying creatures from flying by saying they have to push along physical objects.

That would negate the entire point for the earthbind spell, and make levitate too powerful when dealing with flying foes.

Also think about this, if my imp is towing a rope and I am pulling on the rope, can I then move because I am interacting with a physical object?

[R.Shackleford]

I can't imagine they intend for levitate to prevent flying creatures from flying by saying they have to push along physical objects.

That would negate the entire point for the earthbind spell, and make levitate too powerful when dealing with flying foes.

Also think about this, if my imp is towing a rope and I am pulling on the rope, can I then move because I am interacting with a physical object?

I actually kind of love the mental image of it and it doesn't overlap 100%.

[Man_Over_Game]

I actually kind of love the mental image of it and it doesn't overlap 100%.

That'd be one very confused bird.

[Yunru]

That'd be one very confused bird.

I can't move!
...
But I'm not falling?

[R.Shackleford]

That'd be one very confused bird.

I can't move!
...
But I'm not falling?

Levititate being the anti-flying spell is now RAW for me, on hilarity alone.

[Phoenix042]

I'm loving basically everything in this thread.

I'd totally allow this in my games, btw, although I'm honestly not sure how to adjudicate levitate being cast on a flying creature.

I mean, when cast on a non-flying creature it serves as a way to prevent the creature from moving. Why can't that also work on flying ones?