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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    I think it's pretty obvious that the soccer scene is supposed to show that not only does Eugene actively not care about Roy's interests or even supporting him in the way a father ought, it shows that he's so callous toward him he'd rather schedule something to conflict on purpose with the soccer game than support Roy, AND he makes sure to let Roy know how little interest he has in what he does. There's neglectful from being inattentive or not making an effort, and there's going out of your way to let your son know you don't care. Eugene is doing the latter.

    EDIT: Also I generally agree with Fyraltari's assessment; I think Eugene is a bad father and from all evidence not even a particularly good person.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2019-04-23 at 03:15 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It is true in a more general sense. However I disagree, following Eugene's advice allowed Right-Eye to live the best years of his life until Redcloak came back. Keeping to try to kill Xykon would only have resulted in an earlier grave.
    Why are you assuming that? If you think Xykon's undefeatable someone better get a message to Roy. There's no non-meta reason at all why the group that defeated Xykon had to be led by a human fighter, not a goblin rogue.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Why are you assuming that? If you think Xykon's undefeatable someone better get a message to Roy. There's no non-meta reason at all why the group that defeated Xykon had to be led by a human fighter, not a goblin rogue.
    Because the same goblin Rogue with a Wisdom bonus and a magic dagger couldn't do it either. Also, this is a world where one can just nail a piece of paper that says they'd pay for dead kobolds for a dozen adventurers to jump on the nearest kobold and kill him, so yes, I do think there are non-meta reasons for why a goblin rogue couldn't get a band of adventurers together to kill Xykon.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Anyway, for me it has always been clear that
    1. interest in me as person (which my parents REALLY REALLY SHOWED to great extent!!)
    and
    2. interest in my hobbies (a little here and there)
    are very different things.

    In short, I have always known my parents to love me and care for me, because they cared for my emotional wellbeing, but I would have never tied that into them being interested in my interests.

    It is, really, interesting to read that appearantly that is a thing, though.
    Good to remember when raising children, as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Again, the scene that maybe was supposed to portray Eugene as a selfish liar (the sports scene) just didn't do that to me, personally.
    For me, Eugene HAD important stuff to do: his past came back to haunt him, and he made the decision to fend it off from his family. And in true Hollywood manier, he promptly then lied to his family "to protect them from his troubled past" ("plane of water").
    This isn't absolutely universal, but parents/guardians are often the main source of a child's validation. Children need guidance, and before long they may come to expect it in some form and, hopefully, seek it out. When someone fails to live up to the responsibility of guiding their child, it can feel like a betrayal, and the child may feel that they can't count on the guardian.

    My reading of the soccer scene was that Eugene was consistently failing to be an attentive father, and regardless of whether he had a legitimate excuse on this occasion, it had come to be an expected pattern that he wouldn't be involved in his son's life. Sara had a whole speech prepared.

    It's not that the soccer game in and of itself is what was important to Roy (although Roy clearly was working hard to carry his team to victory); it's that Eugene didn't care no matter what Roy did if it wasn't wizardry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    That doesn't make Eugene a saint at any rate, but my impression was that the scene(s) were meant to paint Eugene in more shades of grey, if you get what I mean.
    Like Sara said: Eugene did, at times, focus his energy on being a good father.
    And to Eugene, this might have been being the perfect wizard example, and enable such life for Roy.
    After all, that's the example his father gave to HIM, showing absolute disinterest in his books.
    This, I admit I have a hard time following. Are you suggesting Eugene consciously chose to be cold to his son, due to his relationship with his own father? Because if any connection can be made, the one I see is that Eugene is a smarmy intellectual whose fighter-phobia exceeds his minimal love of family.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And not every common real stuff will be applicable to you.
    I think Mightymosy's understanding of this fact is implicit in that he made a thread to ask whether or not the "sports trope" is common real stuff.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    I hope the multi-quotes don't mess this up, but I'll try :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I will pass on the scene where a father refuse to listen to his small child resulting in an explosion that kills a two/three years old and severs him into bits and the fallout thereof, thankyouverymuch.
    Well, your choice, but I'd say the comic is violent enough that this wouldn't actually be the worst thing painted, for my taste.
    My point is not that I want to see it to enjoy it, but I wonder if there is a reason we only are being told, not shown (of course, Rich might share your taste and consider such a scene worse than all the other stuff that happened. He DOES seem to be particular averse of violence against babies, that much is true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    He didn't try to watch the game, he went to see Right-Eye instead and once that was done he said he was already "late for an equally pointless appointment". Even if he doesn't care about football, he knew this was important to his son and didn't care. That's bad parenting.
    Well, I thought he wanted to do both, and the meeting with RE took longer than expected.
    Happens to "important" people, that their calendar turns out more full than they expected, no?

    Anyway, of course he finds the soccer game pointless. I'd concur, I find soccer pointless as well, for the most part.
    Again, for me that is not the same as not caring for your son (of course, I'd still take a different route than Eugene, mind you. Just saying that that scene particular didn't ring with me so much).

    You CAN loath appointments you do for your loved ones, can you not?
    Have you ever gone to, I don't know, I concert of a band your gf loves and you hated? Or, the classic, visit her parents with her? Not all may apply, but I certainly consider hating an appointment compatible with liking a person you go to said appointment with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yeah and Xykon does not have revenge as a goal. In fact he never pursues any of his opponents loved ones to punish them. If he did do that he would have killed Eugen after killing his master.
    Yes, Xykon does so either on strategic purpose or just on a whim

    The reason NOT being revenge doesn't help your tortured loved ones, does it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But it isn't the reason he stopped going after Xykon, he wass bored with it before he had a family.
    After doing it for ten years or so, without ever finding a trace, no? Maybe not commitment enough for a blood pact in a fictional story, grant you, but in our mortal RL terms that*spme commitment* to a case, considering you still have to make a living somehow.

    The scene in the tavern is not about him quitting, it's about him *returning* to the quest. And he decides not to.

    He quit because of boredom, maybe.

    But he declines to not return to the quest, why? Is it boredom? I find that less than clear. But I tend to take the characters' words for granted unless evidence shows otherwise, myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    With the exception of his very first appearance Eugene has always been portrayed as an emotionnally abusive father and a terrible husband and son. The revelation that he killed Eric in a lab accident and that did not make him reconsider his work/family priority is not recent. Nor is his agreeing to have his son kidnapped by a secret paramilitary force to endure a close-door trial and be forced into service by a comploting politician or his heartfelt agreeing to never again see his family.
    1. Again, is it such clear that HE killed Eric? Honestly, I'm unclear on this one. I thought it was an accident because he didn't pay enough attention.
    That's why I wanted a more clear description or depiction of the event.
    If I missed it, sorry, then please someone tell.

    2. Yes, Eugene is particularily more bad in the webcomic - as I said, my impression was, at the time I read SoD, that prequel Eugene used to be a slightly better person than current Eugene. And like I said, I very well could be wrong about that, with one of the reasons that the sports scene just worked on me much differently than on other people (it is a key scene in the book, is it not? At least regarding Eugene and Roy).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Protect them from what? Sara had always known he was an adventurer.
    From the most dangerous person in the world?

    Sara married an adventurer, yes. But she wouldn't be the first fictional character to try to convince her husband to quit the dangerous business, if not for me, stop for the kids!

    Again, I think the story hints at stuff but doesn't give enough details. You could very well be right with your interpretation, but for me the depiction is not as evident as for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Nothing. He doesn't have the attention span for it.
    Again, Xykon DID torture the dead Lirian, no matter for what reason.

    Of course, Eugene didn't know that yet, but as a learned wizard he clearly must be able to imagine all the cruel stuff his profession is capable of inflicting onto other people, no need to imagine the specifics, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    She didn't say that, she said that he focused on being a good husband for a while, then grew bored of that too but was stuck with her because of the children.
    Yes, like I said, not a saint at any rate.

    At the time of the tavern scene I would have put him like, maybe the guy in Die Hard? Crappy father if you're honest, but still not the worst of persons?
    Maybe there are better examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's a poor excuse.
    Yes. Yes. And yes.

    It is not an excuse but a reason.

    Isn't that how people believe this works in RL? People are bad parents because they learned it that way from their parents?

    I find the Greenhilt line a particularily well done writing, exactly for that reason. Horace and Eugene are very different, yet on thing they are more similar than either of them would probably like to admit.

    It will be interesting to see how Roy treats his children. His "perfect ending dream" seems to imply that he manages to have a grudge towards wizards in his family. Would he support a child of his that were to become a wizard? Personally, I think Roy has the mind and the heart to break the vicious cycle, and I am curious to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Ain't gonna side with the guy who gets angry his son is allowed into Heaven, myself.
    Side would be a little much, maybe. More like devil's advocate, maybe?

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    This isn't absolutely universal, but parents/guardians are often the main source of a child's validation. Children need guidance, and before long they may come to expect it in some form and, hopefully, seek it out. When someone fails to live up to the responsibility of guiding their child, it can feel like a betrayal, and the child may feel that they can't count on the guardian.

    My reading of the soccer scene was that Eugene was consistently failing to be an attentive father, and regardless of whether he had a legitimate excuse on this occasion, it had come to be an expected pattern that he wouldn't be involved in his son's life. Sara had a whole speech prepared.

    It's not that the soccer game in and of itself is what was important to Roy (although Roy clearly was working hard to carry his team to victory); it's that Eugene didn't care no matter what Roy did if it wasn't wizardry.
    Yes, Eugene was failing in being an attentive father, I just didn't initially read the soccer scene as such. I thought it was to show that Eugene didn't use to be as bad as he is now - in line with Sara's "he used to be better".

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    This, I admit I have a hard time following. Are you suggesting Eugene consciously chose to be cold to his son, due to his relationship with his own father? Because if any connection can be made, the one I see is that Eugene is a smarmy intellectual whose fighter-phobia exceeds his minimal love of family.

    .
    No, I got the impression that Eugene is good at wizardry, but not good at people.
    Thus, the raises Roy the way he was raised: Teach your son the stuff you are good with yourself, and show disinterest in what your son likes.
    (#498: Gorace: Your father never really took to it (fishing), Gods know that I tried --> Horace wants Eugene to enjoy fishing just like himself, does NOT want to read the books his son is interested in)
    SoD 19: Eugene: It took me a year to convince him (to let me go to wizard school) -> Horace blocked Eugene's desired career, Eugene blocked Roy's desired career)

    It's possible Horace went about this a little nicer than Eugene eventually did, but the pattern is still similar.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-04-23 at 03:52 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    1. Again, is it such clear that HE killed Eric? Honestly, I'm unclear on this one. I thought it was an accident because he didn't pay enough attention.
    That's why I wanted a more clear description or depiction of the event.
    If I missed it, sorry, then please someone tell.
    The exact details of the events are left vague, but I take it as fact that Eugene took actions that directly led to Eric's death.

    Yes. Yes. And yes.

    It is not an excuse but a reason.

    Isn't that how people believe this works in RL? People are bad parents because they learned it that way from their parents?

    I find the Greenhilt line a particularily well done writing, exactly for that reason. Horace and Eugene are very different, yet on thing they are more similar than either of them would probably like to admit.

    It will be interesting to see how Roy treats his children. His "perfect ending dream" seems to imply that he manages to have a grudge towards wizards in his family. Would he support a child of his that were to become a wizard? Personally, I think Roy has the mind and the heart to break the vicious cycle, and I am curious to see.
    This bit I can agree with.
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Well, I thought he wanted to do both, and the meeting with RE took longer than expected.
    [snip]
    You CAN loath appointments you do for your loved ones, can you not?
    Wait, I'm confused. Did he want to go see Roy's game, or did he loathe it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Anyway, of course he finds the soccer game pointless. I'd concur, I find soccer pointless as well, for the most part.
    Nothing wrong about that. However, would you tell that to your kid to his face while he's upset that you missed his game? Because Eugene would.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    The reason NOT being revenge doesn't help your tortured loved ones, does it?
    Again, confused. At what point did Eugene not telling Sara things protect them? At what point did Xykon personally go after the family of someone he fought, specifically to go after their family and with no other major motive?
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Wait, I'm confused. Did he want to go see Roy's game, or did he loathe it?
    I think he didn't WANT to see Roy's game, but he still tried to because presumably Sara told him that needed to be done to be a good father.

    Have you never done something for a child which you yourself found utterly silly but still did it because the child might be happy?

    Was it to appease Sara? To appease Roy??
    The exact internal reasons why he tried to attend are unknown, we just know he tried and came late.

    And we know he loathed soccer, that'S for sure.
    He considers it waste of time, especially once his son attends wizard school, like he wishes for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Nothing wrong about that. However, would you tell that to your kid to his face while he's upset that you missed his game? Because Eugene would.
    And that tells us what?

    I certainly would pick different words with my kids than Eugene, if that's what you are wondering about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Again, confused. At what point did Eugene not telling Sara things protect them? At what point did Xykon personally go after the family of someone he fought, specifically to go after their family and with no other major motive?
    Actually I checked the scene again right now:
    He lies IN FRONT OF ROY about where he was.
    He later attempts to clarify to Sara, but is interrupted.

    Maybe at this point he thinks Roy is too young to hear about such bloody stuff, but intends to speak openly to Sara about it later?

    Also, NOT telling Sara of course would be a mistake. Again, a well-used trope, but fictional and real characters still lie to their loved ones all the times, for reasons they think are good.


    What does it matter whether Xykon would hunt down Sara and Roy?
    What matters is that is a possibility to Eugene.
    Or, even easier: he might murder Eugene and leave Roy a half orphan and Sara a widow.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-04-23 at 04:09 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Well, I thought he wanted to do both, and the meeting with RE took longer than expected.
    Happens to "important" people, that their calendar turns out more full than they expected, no?
    A football game last one hour and a half. That conversation did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Anyway, of course he finds the soccer game pointless. I'd concur, I find soccer pointless as well, for the most part.
    Again, for me that is not the same as not caring for your son (of course, I'd still take a different route than Eugene, mind you. Just saying that that scene particular didn't ring with me so much).
    You CAN loath appointments you do for your loved ones, can you not?
    Have you ever gone to, I don't know, I concert of a band your gf loves and you hated? Or, the classic, visit her parents with her? Not all may apply, but I certainly consider hating an appointment compatible with liking a person you go to said appointment with.
    If you care for someone then doing something you know is important to them is not pointless. Tedious? Yes. Boring? Possibly. Painful? On occasion. But pointless? No. There is a point: to be agreeable to someone you care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Yes, Xykon does so either on strategic purpose or just on a whim

    The reason NOT being revenge doesn't help your tortured loved ones, does it?
    Again, he never went after someone's loved ones be tactically OR ona whim, he doesn't have the patience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    After doing it for ten years or so, without ever finding a trace, no? Maybe not commitment enough for a blood pact in a fictional story, grant you, but in our mortal RL terms that*spme commitment* to a case, considering you still have to make a living somehow.
    You do realize, he's an adventurer, right? Tracking a bad guy and killing monsters on the way IS how he makes a living.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    The scene in the tavern is not about him quitting, it's about him *returning* to the quest. And he decides not to.

    He quit because of boredom, maybe.

    But he declines to not return to the quest, why? Is it boredom? I find that less than clear. But I tend to take the characters' words for granted unless evidence shows otherwise, myself.
    Then why not take Sara's word on it? Eugene is angry in the afterlife because he is being forced to deal with something he abandonned long ago. Why would he not want to shirk that in life too?



    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    1. Again, is it such clear that HE killed Eric? Honestly, I'm unclear on this one. I thought it was an accident because he didn't pay enough attention.
    That's why I wanted a more clear description or depiction of the event.
    If I missed it, sorry, then please someone tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roy
    It wasn't my job to watch the grown-ups
    Quote Originally Posted by Durkon*
    You knew your father was doing something dangerous. [...] How many pieces was it in? More than five?

    Sounds like Eugene was doing an experiment than exploded in Eric's face.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    2. Yes, Eugene is particularily more bad in the webcomic - as I said, my impression was, at the time I read SoD, that prequel Eugene used to be a slightly better person than current Eugene. And like I said, I very well could be wrong about that, with one of the reasons that the sports scene just worked on me much differently than on other people (it is a key scene in the book, is it not? At least regarding Eugene and Roy).
    That's a very low bar to pass.




    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    From the most dangerous person in the world?

    Sara married an adventurer, yes. But she wouldn't be the first fictional character to try to convince her husband to quit the dangerous business, if not for me, stop for the kids!
    That doesn't make sense. According to you he was "protecting" them from a job he had already turned down. He didn't tell Roy where he was because he did not want him to know what his job was yet, but he had no reason to hide it from Sara.
    Again, I think the story hints at stuff but doesn't give enough details. You could very well be right with your interpretation, but for me the depiction is not as evident as for you.




    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Again, Xykon DID torture the dead Lirian, no matter for what reason.
    The reason was that she beat him and forced him to become a lich to get even. I see where you're confused, Xykon did not torture Lirian further after stuffing her soul inside his gem. He did treaten Dorukan with making her watch her own body get eaten, but it took him months to think of that one and he used the body he had at his disposal, and it didn't work as Dorukan only left his castle because he finally knew where Lirian's soul was. Again he never makes the effort to track his ennemies' families, half the time he can't be bothered to remember their names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Of course, Eugene didn't know that yet, but as a learned wizard he clearly must be able to imagine all the cruel stuff his profession is capable of inflicting onto other people, no need to imagine the specifics, thanks.
    Yeah and he also knew that Xykon didn't bother killing him either after killing Fyron.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Yes, like I said, not a saint at any rate.

    At the time of the tavern scene I would have put him like, maybe the guy in Die Hard? Crappy father if you're honest, but still not the worst of persons?
    Maybe there are better examples.
    Oh, I will happily conced that Eugene is only the second-worst father in this comic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Yes. Yes. And yes.

    It is not an excuse but a reason.

    Isn't that how people believe this works in RL? People are bad parents because they learned it that way from their parents?
    People are bad parents for plenty of reasons. And a lot of people are good parents despite having terrible parents.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    I find the Greenhilt line a particularily well done writing, exactly for that reason. Horace and Eugene are very different, yet on thing they are more similar than either of them would probably like to admit.
    Oh, yeah Horace most likely was a crappy father as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    It will be interesting to see how Roy treats his children. His "perfect ending dream" seems to imply that he manages to have a grudge towards wizards in his family. Would he support a child of his that were to become a wizard? Personally, I think Roy has the mind and the heart to break the vicious cycle, and I am curious to see.
    Seeing as his newfound powers have been likened to those of a wizard, without it bothering him and that he does express emotion toward his wizard of a sister, I'm not worried.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-04-23 at 04:33 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    I think he didn't WANT to see Roy's game, but he still tried to because presumably Sara told him that needed to be done to be a good father.

    Have you never done something for a child which you yourself found utterly silly but still did it because the child might be happy?
    I can state with absolute honesty that I have never thought doing anything for my son was pointless, nor have I at any point loathed any of the things I've done for him, and everything I've done for him I have wanted to do.

    If you need to be told what to do to be a good father, that implies you might not be a good father. If you then fail spectacularly at what you were specifically told to do to be a good father, then it's pretty plain-as-day you're not a good father.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    I certainly would pick different words with my kids than Eugene, if that's what you are wondering about.
    Fun fact, the appropriate response to that is "no."
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    What does it matter whether Xykon would hunt down Sara and Roy?
    What matters is that is a possibility to Eugene.
    Is it a possibility to Eugene, though? That's not the first excuse he gives, it's just the first one that doesn't immediately get holes punched in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Or, even easier: he might murder Eugene and leave Roy a half orphan and Sara a widow.
    You got On the Origin of PCs on hand, perchance? Go ahead and pop open to page 41, top splash panel, and tell me again how big a concern that must have been to him.
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    I’m with Fyraltari. It’s very strange to me that Eric’s death is never mentioned at Eugene’s “entry interview” for Celestia. Negligently killing your young child and then letting your son blame himself for it for the next decade is way more serious than “editing your own Wikipedia article”.

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’m with Fyraltari. It’s very strange to me that Eric’s death is never mentioned at Eugene’s “entry interview” for Celestia. Negligently killing your young child and then letting your son blame himself for it for the next decade is way more serious than “editing your own Wikipedia article”.
    Its hard to say how much Eugene would actually know about Roy's guilt. Roy certainly wouldn't have talked to Eugene about it, and he seems to have gotten over it at least enough to maintain a relationship with his father.

    Anyway, negligent is not the same thing as evil. It makes him a crappy parent, but we already knew that, and "being a good parent" is not a prerequisite for being good.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’m with Fyraltari. It’s very strange to me that Eric’s death is never mentioned at Eugene’s “entry interview” for Celestia. Negligently killing your young child and then letting your son blame himself for it for the next decade is way more serious than “editing your own Wikipedia article”.
    The Start of Darkness epilogue reads a little too much like Eugene's evaluation was finished up and he was ready to enter Celestia except for the blood oath, because to me, Eugene's afterlife status (based on what we've seen of his life and what we know he's done, i.e. with Eric) suggests someone who falls well short of Celestia's standards. My headcanon is that the Blood Oath came up before the deva really looked very deeply into his record, and I think that's a reasonable interpretation of what actually happens in the scene. (Indeed, now that you mention it, I think that's the only interpretation that explains why Eric didn't come up.)

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    The Start of Darkness epilogue reads a little too much like Eugene's evaluation was finished up and he was ready to enter Celestia except for the blood oath, because to me, Eugene's afterlife status (based on what we've seen of his life and what we know he's done, i.e. with Eric) suggests someone who falls well short of Celestia's standards. My headcanon is that the Blood Oath came up before the deva really looked very deeply into his record, and I think that's a reasonable interpretation of what actually happens in the scene. (Indeed, now that you mention it, I think that's the only interpretation that explains why Eric didn't come up.)
    Yeah, the Deva tells him "that's what I'm trying to determine" to me that indicates that the review had just begun. Then he was probably looking at Eugene's life in chronological order and the Oath happened before he met Sara. It is odd, though, that it was never brought up during his previous deaths.
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    The Start of Darkness epilogue reads a little too much like Eugene's evaluation was finished up and he was ready to enter Celestia except for the blood oath, because to me, Eugene's afterlife status (based on what we've seen of his life and what we know he's done, i.e. with Eric) suggests someone who falls well short of Celestia's standards. My headcanon is that the Blood Oath came up before the deva really looked very deeply into his record, and I think that's a reasonable interpretation of what actually happens in the scene. (Indeed, now that you mention it, I think that's the only interpretation that explains why Eric didn't come up.)
    Yeah. Roy's deva was ready to chuck him in True Neutral for abandoning a friend to an unknown fate if he hadn't gone back and made up for it later. Eugene's mistake with Eric was substantially more serious, if for no other reason than that Eric was killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yeah, the Deva tells him "that's what I'm trying to determine" to me that indicates that the review had just begun. Then he was probably looking at Eugene's life in chronological order and the Oath happened before he met Julia. It is odd, though, that it was never brought up during his previous deaths.
    Sara, not Julia.

    (Maybe the devas always see the Blood Oath first and always stop there?)
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    My point is not that I want to see it to enjoy it, but I wonder if there is a reason we only are being told, not shown (of course, Rich might share your taste and consider such a scene worse than all the other stuff that happened. He DOES seem to be particular averse of violence against babies, that much is true.
    The question has come up repeatedly due to a certain subset of the fanbase who really wanted to see slaughtered children depicted in the strip. The Giant quite firmly put down his Size 800 Quintuple Zs on that---There Will NOT be dead children depicted in this comic.

    Going further down this road lead to bannings due to advocating genocide, moral justification, etc.

    Xykon never tortured Lirian. He killed her, he used a soul bind spell (which per RAW leaves the soul in stasis, so she doesn't experience time at all), he animated her corpse.

    I could say more about the kind of parent Eugene is, but that gets political in a hurry. The short version is my job involves putting people like him as far away from their kids as possible.

    Parents missing their children's activities is a nice red flag for other issues, BTW. It speaks to a lack of involvement that predators look for, among other things.

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    I dont think Roy´s father is that bad. I can think of many things that my parents have done that are way worse than missing a game and then calling it pointless. I dont know what that says about my parents though.
    Thanks to Emperor Ing for the awesome avvy.

    Quote Originally Posted by jidasfire View Post
    On a long enough scale, every OOTS forum discussion turns into a debate about alignment, Miko, or Familicide.
    It can also turn into a Star wars debate.

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    Sara, not Julia.
    Thank you, fixed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    (Maybe the devas always see the Blood Oath first and always stop there?)
    I don't like Eugene much but he isn't dumb. It sounds like he would have gone back to hunting Xykon if he had known he'd be stuck on Cloudstreet if he did not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    The question has come up repeatedly due to a certain subset of the fanbase who really wanted to see slaughtered children depicted in the strip. The Giant quite firmly put down his Size 800 Quintuple Zs on that---There Will NOT be dead children depicted in this comic.
    Actually, there have been already.
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I don't like Eugene much but he isn't dumb. It sounds like he would have gone back to hunting Xykon if he had known he'd be stuck on Cloudstreet if he did not.
    I choose to believe Myrtok always brought him back too fast for the process to get started.
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I choose to believe Myrtok always brought him back too fast for the process to get started.
    Does that mean Durkon's tombstone will have on display :
    Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
    113X-1181
    1181-1181
    1181-1XXX
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I choose to believe Myrtok always brought him back too fast for the process to get started.
    Unlikely, since at least the one time he died one year and was rezzed the next.

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Unlikely, since at least the one time he died one year and was rezzed the next.
    That was an awkwad New Year party, I tell you.
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That was an awkwad New Year party, I tell you.
    "Hey fellas, want to see a trick?"

    (Insert relevant SMBC here.)
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    Sara, not Julia.
    Presumably the Blood Oath also took place before he met Julia...
    Spoiler
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    Yeah. Roy's deva was ready to chuck him in True Neutral for abandoning a friend to an unknown fate if he hadn't gone back and made up for it later. Eugene's mistake with Eric was substantially more serious, if for no other reason than that Eric was killed.
    I don't usually invest much effort in defending Roy, but this is one instance where I think the comic's stance is pretty wonky- by all appearances, his initial assessment that attacking the bandits would be suicidal was basically correct and only worked out otherwise due to sheer blind luck. And sure, it's kinda strange that he would later turn around and assume he could pull off a rescue where 4 of his teammates had failed, but that just means his belated rescue was stupid-heroic, not that abandoning Elan was evil.

    (If you like, one can argue that Roy was never in any serious danger due to meta-factors based on his narrative role- i.e, "the rescuer prevails"- but by the same logic Elan was never in any real danger due to meta-factors based on his narrative role- i.e, the "the happy-go-lucky-bard gets laid.")
    Give directly to the extreme poor.

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Presumably the Blood Oath also took place before he met Julia...
    Years before, since Julia's a teenager now.

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I don't usually invest much effort in defending Roy, but this is one instance where I think the comic's stance is pretty wonky- by all appearances, his initial assessment that attacking the bandits would be suicidal was basically correct and only worked out otherwise due to sheer blind luck. And sure, it's kinda strange that he would later turn around and assume he could pull off a rescue where 4 of his teammates had failed, but that just means his belated rescue was stupid-heroic, not that abandoning Elan was evil.
    Let's look at #153. If he had said the rescue was suicidal and that they should come up with some better plan or find more resources or allies, that would be one thing. His initial reaction, though, was essentially "Good riddance"-- he compared Elan to syphilis! And not only that, it happened on a personal sidequest of his, to someone who looked up to him and considered him a friend. It would have been both Chaotic and Evil for Mr. Big Time Hero Guy With A Sense of Responsibility to essentially lead his team on a personal side mission and then leave one of them to presumably die without even trying to find a solution to rescue him. (And really, the whole operation would have gone better if the team's fighter, leader, and strategist had been on board from the start.)

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I don't usually invest much effort in defending Roy, but this is one instance where I think the comic's stance is pretty wonky- by all appearances, his initial assessment that attacking the bandits would be suicidal was basically correct and only worked out otherwise due to sheer blind luck. And sure, it's kinda strange that he would later turn around and assume he could pull off a rescue where 4 of his teammates had failed, but that just means his belated rescue was stupid-heroic, not that abandoning Elan was evil.

    (If you like, one can argue that Roy was never in any serious danger due to meta-factors based on his narrative role- i.e, "the rescuer prevails"- but by the same logic Elan was never in any real danger due to meta-factors based on his narrative role- i.e, the "the happy-go-lucky-bard gets laid.")
    Huh, I actually thought Roy got off way too easy on everything else. I can't be the only one who didn't buy "turns out the gifts would have been destroyed" as a response to "you impersonated a king and took gifts meant for him", or "I don't remember that one" to "you dangled someone out a window".
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    I can't be the only one who didn't buy..."I don't remember that one" to "you dangled someone out a window".
    If anyone bought the memory charm that kept Roy from remembering doing that, my guess would be the Oracle.

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    If anyone bought the memory charm that kept Roy from remembering doing that, my guess would be the Oracle.
    I'm not saying I don't believe Roy. I'm sure he doesn't remember, and I'm sure he's confident the gifts wouldn't have been destroyed in an explosion if he hadn't impersonated royalty.

    I just don't think they're good excuses.
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