Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

[Keltest]

I'm not saying I don't believe Roy. I'm sure he doesn't remember, and I'm sure he's confident the gifts wouldn't have been destroyed in an explosion if he hadn't impersonated royalty.

I just don't think they're good excuses.

The window bit could conceivably be glossed over because the Oracle, who was the victim, denied him the ability to atone.

And while I do think Roy's excuse was weak, it was a weak charge to begin with since he sincerely tried to deny the gifts and was overruled.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He was also planning on paying for the bill out of his share of the treasure.

[DaOldeWolf]

Huh, I actually thought Roy got off way too easy on everything else. I can't be the only one who didn't buy "turns out the gifts would have been destroyed" as a response to "you impersonated a king and took gifts meant for him", or "I don't remember that one" to "you dangled someone out a window".

I dont know. To me, it seemed like the deva was trying to get him to react and find out how he felt to see what his outlook of life was. The deva glossed over a lot of stuff like when she brought up first Roy´s teacher before just dropping the subject. The fact that there was a discussion at all, meant that part of the evaluation required interaction with Roy. Afterall, the deva said that it was important to find out if he "fit" there or if he should be sent to a different afterlife.

I think the point of many of the subjects brought up are meant to test him and see if he is has the appropiate mentality for the afterlife. It also allowed the story the chance to give us the message about the importance of trying to improve and keep fighting for what we want even if it isnt easy and sometimes we fail.

[Aveline]

The window bit could conceivably be glossed over because the Oracle, who was the victim, denied him the ability to atone.

And while I do think Roy's excuse was weak, it was a weak charge to begin with since he sincerely tried to deny the gifts and was overruled.

He was also planning on paying for the bill out of his share of the treasure.

I dont know. To me, it seemed like the deva was trying to get him to react and find out how he felt to see what his outlook of life was. The deva glossed over a lot of stuff like when she brought up first Roy´s teacher before just dropping the subject. The fact that there was a discussion at all, meant that part of the evaluation required interaction with Roy. Afterall, the deva said that it was important to find out if he "fit" there or if he should be sent to a different afterlife.

I think the point of many of the subjects brought up are meant to test him and see if he is has the appropiate mentality for the afterlife. It also allowed the story the chance to give us the message about the importance of trying to improve and keep fighting for what we want even if it isnt easy and sometimes we fail.

Hmm. Alright, you've convinced me.

[Lacuna Caster]

Let's look at #153. If he had said the rescue was suicidal and that they should come up with some better plan or find more resources or allies, that would be one thing.

Yes, he could have gone out of his way to expend significant time, resources, and expectable life-years on the task of rescuing Elan, and that would be a generally-agreed-on heroic thing to do. But declining to make significant sacrifices in order to aid the helpless isn't Evil behaviour. (Otherwise you could point at every Neutral person who isn't giving half their income to feed hungry orphans and declare them to be some kind of conscious malefactor.)

I don't consider Elan's pre-existing relationship with Roy to be relevant- his specific obligation to teammates is a Lawful trait, and it's Roy's prerogative to judge how much of a 'friend' Elan is. It's Neutral behaviour that just looks Evil by comparison with what every other member of the team- including, egads, Belkar- is willing to do at the time. (It might be the single most morally upstanding thing we ever see Belkar do.)

I mean yeah, you could have more back-and-forth on the subject, but I'd argue letting Elan on the team in the first place was 'imperilling innocents', and I'm just not inclined to judge Roy too harshly for anything that happens during the 'inconsequential comedy hijinks' phase of the strip. Otherwise you've got, e.g, the problem of addressing what happened to all the goblins left in Dorukan's Dungeon, and Elan is going straight to Hell.

Huh, I actually thought Roy got off way too easy on everything else. I can't be the only one who didn't buy "turns out the gifts would have been destroyed" as a response to "you impersonated a king and took gifts meant for him", or "I don't remember that one" to "you dangled someone out a window".

Eh, it's not intrinsically evil to rough someone up for the sake of information, at least in D&D. Taking the Royal Suite was selfish and dumb and underhanded, but not exactly harmful per se.

[Ruck]

Huh, I actually thought Roy got off way too easy on everything else. I can't be the only one who didn't buy "turns out the gifts would have been destroyed" as a response to "you impersonated a king and took gifts meant for him", or "I don't remember that one" to "you dangled someone out a window".

The not remembering part is unusual because it's an actual magical effect in this case-- it's hard to compare it to the real world.

The taking gifts excuse is a little weak, but I also don't think it's a serious enough crime that it would have moved him off the LG list.

[Jasdoif]

I'm not saying I don't believe Roy. I'm sure he doesn't remember....

I just don't think they're good excuses.

Since Roy's not lying....I really don't see how he could be expected to speak for/against/about something he didn't at all remember doing. Poor excuse or not, "I don't remember" is really the most accurate thing he could say about dangling the Oracle out the window; and I think the whole doing your best to the limit of your abilities thing applies here as well.

[Lacuna Caster]

Eh, it's not intrinsically evil to rough someone up for the sake of information, at least in D&D. Taking the Royal Suite was selfish and dumb and underhanded, but not exactly harmful per se.

Actually, no, I take that back. It was harmful in the sense that impersonating a monarch could easily and forseeably lead to significant censure by the real monarch he was impersonating and other general complications, even if he was willing to pay for it afterwards, and thus might land both himself and his associates in hot water.

[Peelee]

Since Roy's not lying....I really don't see how he could be expected to speak for/against/about something he didn't at all remember doing. Poor excuse or not, "I don't remember" is really the most accurate thing he could say about dangling the Oracle out the window; and I think the whole doing your best to the limit of your abilities thing applies here as well.

Which opens us up to a philosophical question. If a paladin fell in the memory-charmed area and then left, would they not remain fallen? True, one cannot expect them to atone for an act they cannot recall, but that does not negate that the act was committed. If a vase is broken and then repaired, are the cracks not still present?

[Ruck]

Yes, he could have gone out of his way to expend significant time, resources, and expectable life-years on the task of rescuing Elan, and that would be a generally-agreed-on heroic thing to do. But declining to make significant sacrifices in order to aid the helpless isn't Evil behaviour. (Otherwise you could point at every Neutral person who isn't giving half their income to feed hungry orphans and declare them to be some kind of conscious malefactor.)

Well, to quote the Deva, "What complicates issues is that you've taken on the role of his commanding officer."

I don't consider Elan's pre-existing relationship with Roy to be relevant- his specific obligation to teammates is a Lawful trait, and it's Roy's prerogative to judge how much of a 'friend' Elan is. It's Neutral behaviour that just looks Evil by comparison with what every other member of the team- including, egads, Belkar- is willing to do at the time. (It might be the single most morally upstanding thing we ever see Belkar do.)

Well, I don't think it's Neutral precisely because Roy led Elan into the situation. If Roy failed to help a stranger, that would be Neutral. Roy being a teammate of Elan is a Lawful issue; but Roy leading Elan into danger and then deliberately abandoning him is a Good-Evil issue, I think.

(Re: Friendship, the question of what that term means is a more complicated one that time will allow for me to answer, but in brief to this point-- sometimes we can be friends with people whose personalities we don't necessarily like if they have other traits that make up for it. I think Elan's loyalty makes him a friend, and Roy doesn't object when Vaarsuvius describes theirs as "a hard-earned friendship.")

I mean yeah, you could have more back-and-forth on the subject, but I'd argue letting Elan on the team in the first place was 'imperilling innocents', and I'm just not inclined to judge Roy too harshly for anything that happens during the 'inconsequential comedy hijinks' phase of the strip. Otherwise you've got, e.g, the problem of addressing what happened to all the goblins left in Dorukan's Dungeon, and Elan is going straight to Hell.

At least that, presuming it happened (and the goblins didn't just, I dunno, escape somehow and also avoided Redcloak in the process), wasn't intentionally malicious on Elan's part. But that also happened in Book 1, and Roy's abandoning Elan happened in Book 2, and he's judged on it in Book 4, so I think we are supposed to take it seriously, because the Deva takes it seriously.

[Jasdoif]

True, one cannot expect them to atone for an act they cannot recall, but that does not negate that the act was committed.

Probably simplifies desiring to set right their misdeeds, if being fallen is the only indication of such misdeeds. Or do we break out the divinations/sleuthing and try to determine what they can't recall? Or are we watching Memento instead?

[DaOldeWolf]

Which opens us up to a philosophical question. If a paladin fell in the memory-charmed area and then left, would they not remain fallen? True, one cannot expect them to atone for an act they cannot recall, but that does not negate that the act was committed. If a vase is broken and then repaired, are the cracks not still present?

I doubt a fallen paladin and Roy can be taken in the same situation. The paladin would probably search for the reason behind his falling and realice he fell. I dont think characters without restricting class features can be blamed if they dont find out that their memories were erased and that as such, cannot realize that they might have done something wrong.

As for the question, since Belkar left the place just as sick as he was inside oracle territory, I dont think the paladin gets a free pass to recover his skills.

I still stand by my theory that part of the evaluation is based on how Roy reacts and thinks. I doubt the deva would have given Roy a chance if he laughed or felt proud about any of the actions that the deva brought up. Just to further prove my theory, think about the moment when Belkar was brought up.

The deva mentions how Belkar is evil. How Roy is the commander and holds responsability on some level for his actions. Things like why he keeps Belkar around and his position on the whole situation. And for what? The deva has data that supports how Belkar is doing less evil under his care and the deva doesnt retort Roy when he mentions his reasons for keeping him around. There is zero purpose to this discussion if they already got the data they need. The deva even mentions later in the interview that there is no doubt that he is a good person and that the main issue is whether he is lawful enough for this after life. It really makes the whole discussion about his "not good actions" seem pointless.

IMHO, I think its not about classifying his actions as good or as lawful, the deva labels those actions by herself. Its about what is behind those actions that the deva seemed to care about the most. And how does Roy react to those actions? He excused himself for some his bad actions, which imply that he doesnt exactly think highly of them. He even admits how shameful his actions towards Elan were. All of the scenes show that Roy is a loyal leader who is trying to be a good person and sometimes makes mistakes. For me, the deva doesnt seem interested in discussing the details about anything and mostly seems to be trying to understand Roy as a person.

[Fyraltari]

Which opens us up to a philosophical question. If a paladin fell in the memory-charmed area and then left, would they not remain fallen? True, one cannot expect them to atone for an act they cannot recall, but that does not negate that the act was committed. If a vase is broken and then repaired, are the cracks not still present?

The mark of Justice kept cursing Belkar so it seems the metaphysical forces of this universe have decided that the answer to this kind of questions was yes.

[Quebbster]

A football game last one hour and a half. That conversation did not.

Roy was eight years old at the time. Eight-year-olds do not play for hours. The match itself probably took 45 minutes, tops.
On the other hand, Eugene probably had no input on the time and place since RE sent him an anonymous letter telling him when and where to meet him. Since he had to sneak out of Xykon's lair it's quite possible he arrived late too.

[Mightymosy]

A football game last one hour and a half. That conversation did not.


If you care for someone then doing something you know is important to them is not pointless. Tedious? Yes. Boring? Possibly. Painful? On occasion. But pointless? No. There is a point: to be agreeable to someone you care about.


Again, he never went after someone's loved ones be tactically OR ona whim, he doesn't have the patience.


You do realize, he's an adventurer, right? Tracking a bad guy and killing monsters on the way IS how he makes a living.



Then why not take Sara's word on it? Eugene is angry in the afterlife because he is being forced to deal with something he abandonned long ago. Why would he not want to shirk that in life too?





Sounds like Eugene was doing an experiment than exploded in Eric's face.



That's a very low bar to pass.





That doesn't make sense. According to you he was "protecting" them from a job he had already turned down. He didn't tell Roy where he was because he did not want him to know what his job was yet, but he had no reason to hide it from Sara.
Again, I think the story hints at stuff but doesn't give enough details. You could very well be right with your interpretation, but for me the depiction is not as evident as for you.





The reason was that she beat him and forced him to become a lich to get even. I see where you're confused, Xykon did not torture Lirian further after stuffing her soul inside his gem. He did treaten Dorukan with making her watch her own body get eaten, but it took him months to think of that one and he used the body he had at his disposal, and it didn't work as Dorukan only left his castle because he finally knew where Lirian's soul was. Again he never makes the effort to track his ennemies' families, half the time he can't be bothered to remember their names.


Yeah and he also knew that Xykon didn't bother killing him either after killing Fyron.




Oh, I will happily conced that Eugene is only the second-worst father in this comic.


People are bad parents for plenty of reasons. And a lot of people are good parents despite having terrible parents.



Oh, yeah Horace most likely was a crappy father as well.


Seeing as his newfound powers have been likened to those of a wizard, without it bothering him and that he does express emotion toward his wizard of a sister, I'm not worried.

Ugh, this will be a mess on phone.....sorry if I miss a point.

1. Football games:
Good point, I didn't remember that!
But then again, maybe Eugene didn't either? I think he knows about it less than I do.....

I think we are in agreement he did a crappy job trying to attend the game.

2. Xykon

Xykon threatened to torture Lirian.
It's right in the comic.

Also, how should Eugene KNOW he wouldn't kill his family?
Just because he didn't bother to kill him?
Not a chance I would take.
3. Adventure life:
You mean that as a counter argument to quitting the oath for financial reasons?
Then ok, fair point. I forget that adventuring is a valid "profession" in that world.
4. Horace
Ok, we agree then?
5. 2nd worst father
I don't know........
Opinion time!
Which one would you pick given the choice:
Ian or Eugene?

I'd go with Eugene, but still not saying that makes him great or anything. Just I dislike Ian....

[Peelee]

Opinion time!
Which one would you pick given the choice:
Ian or Eugene?

I'd go with Eugene, but still not saying that makes him great or anything. Just I dislike Ian....

Ian in a heartbeat. He at least likes his kid, which is more than I can say for Eugene.

[Fyraltari]

Roy was eight years old at the time. Eight-year-olds do not play for hours. The match itself probably took 45 minutes, tops.
On the other hand, Eugene probably had no input on the time and place since RE sent him an anonymous letter telling him when and where to meet him. Since he had to sneak out of Xykon's lair it's quite possible he arrived late too.

Fair point however Eugene received an anonymous letter giving him a meeting in a sleazy bar without a stated reason* at the same time at his son’s big game. And he chose the bar. I mean it’s possible he spent about an hour soaking in the nostalgia but I doubt it.

Ugh, this will be a mess on phone.....sorry if I miss a point.

1. Football games:
Good point, I didn't remember that!
But then again, maybe Eugene didn't either? I think he knows about it less than I do.....

I think we are in agreement he did a crappy job trying to attend the game.

2. Xykon

Xykon threatened to torture Lirian.
It's right in the comic.

Also, how should Eugene KNOW he wouldn't kill his family?
Just because he didn't bother to kill him?
Not a chance I would take.
3. Adventure life:
You mean that as a counter argument to quitting the oath for financial reasons?
Then ok, fair point. I forget that adventuring is a valid "profession" in that world.
4. Horace
Ok, we agree then?
5. 2nd worst father
I don't know........
Opinion time!
Which one would you pick given the choice:
Ian or Eugene?

I'd go with Eugene, but still not saying that makes him great or anything. Just I dislike Ian....

1. See above.
2. How would Xykon even know Eugene has a family, let alone who they are and where they live?
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Ian. Ian did what he did out of misaimed care (and to be honest, self-centered pride, too) and was brought around to Haley’s point of view with less screen-time and fewer interactions than Eugene has. Eugene abuses his oldest son out of spite and refused to change his approach AFTER IT HAD GOTTEN HIS SECOND SON KILLED. He even tells to Roy’s face that his, and his siblings’ existence was a mistake.

*Eugene was surprised that RE knew he used to hunt Xykon. And if RE’s message had mentionnés Xykon I doubt Eugene would have bothered to show up at all, whatever you think his motive is.

[Mightymosy]

Fair point however Eugene received an anonymous letter giving him a meeting in a sleazy bar without a stated reason* at the same time at his son’s big game. And he chose the bar. I mean it’s possible he spent about an hour soaking in the nostalgia but I doubt it.

1. See above.
2. How would Xykon even know Eugene has a family, let alone who they are and where they live?
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Ian. Ian did what he did out of misaimed care (and to be honest, self-centered pride, too) and was brought around to Haley’s point of view with less screen-time and fewer interactions than Eugene has. Eugene abuses his oldest son out of spite and refused to change his approach AFTER IT HAD GOTTEN HIS SECOND SON KILLED. He even tells to Roy’s face that his, and his siblings’ existence was a mistake.

*Eugene was surprised that RE knew he used to hunt Xykon. And if RE’s message had mentionnés Xykon I doubt Eugene would have bothered to show up at all, whatever you think his motive is.

1. Do we know the content of the letter? Am at work now, so don't know.
Maybe RE came later than Eugene anticipated?
I got the impression Eugene tried to cram too much into his calendar, and missed the part that was important to his son.

As I said, I'm not particularily much into this "I care about something so my parents better care about it as well and better make time to watch it!" line, which is the most important reason the scene left me with a different impression that most people here, appearantly.

It shows Eugene's priorities, that's for sure.

2. Scrying
Also, the point about Xykon just killing Eugene, leaving Sara and Roy alone.

5. Ian
Interesting.
You are right in what you're saying, it's just that I can't stand the guy.
I would assume I would have a much better relationship with Eugene than Roy did, because I would love to become a wizard - as such Eugene would be more supportive than he is to Roy.
His worse character traits would probably not come out as much as they did.
This doesn't make Eugene a better man than he is....but I still would be happier with him as dad than Ian, I think.
Also because I simply love the ironic lines he gives Roy in book 1 and later. Reminds me of my dad.
What can I say? I love good rhetoric, even when I am on the recieving end of a quip. As long as the reasoning makes sense, I'm all for it.
Catch tetanus on the stick....he he

[Peelee]

1. Do we know the content of the letter? Am at work now, so don't know.

Sure. "The chimera has three sets of teeth."

I got the impression Eugene tried to cram too much into his calendar, and missed the part that was important to his son.

Despite his constant talk of being important, he certainly doesn't seem to be terribly busy, I gotta say.

[Quebbster]

Fair point however Eugene received an anonymous letter giving him a meeting in a sleazy bar without a stated reason* at the same time at his son’s big game. And he chose the bar. I mean it’s possible he spent about an hour soaking in the nostalgia but I doubt it.

Yeah, I am not in any way defending Eugene's choices. It's a safe assumption he had no idea how long the game would last anyway.

[Fyraltari]

1. Do we know the content of the letter? Am at work now, so don't know.
Maybe RE came later than Eugene anticipated?
I got the impression Eugene tried to cram too much into his calendar, and missed the part that was important to his son.

We know that it was anonymous and had a password.
Why would Eugene consider that important?

As I said, I'm not particularily much into this "I care about something so my parents better care about it as well and better make time to watch it!" line, which is the most important reason the scene left me with a different impression that most people here,

But that’s not what is going on. Eugene did not miss a match he was going to with his son. He missed a match his son played in. That’s something Roy presumably trained for during the whole year. And winning is an achievement. It is not playing with LEGO or (solo) video gaming where there is no competition and where practice makes perfect, there was a real chance of failure. Not attending is sending the message that Roy’s achievement, possibly what Roy considered his biggest achievement at the time does not matter. Especially since this was not a singular event but a pattern. Eugene always missed Roy’s matches.

2. Scrying
Also, the point about Xykon just killing Eugene, leaving Sara and Roy alone.

Hilgya couldn’t scary on Durkon and she knew him. You’d expect Xykon to scrub on people he does not know exist? Also Eugene is a master illusionist.
Also I guess you did not look at the page Peelee told you to go to (understandable if you are at work or haven’t bought OtOoPCs) but Eugen is used to dying.

5. Ian
Interesting.
You are right in what you're saying, it's just that I can't stand the guy.
I would assume I would have a much better relationship with Eugene than Roy did, because I would love to become a wizard - as such Eugene would be more supportive than he is to Roy.

So would I but fatherly love has no business being conditional.

His worse character traits would probably not come out as much as they did.

That’s hardly an excuse.

This doesn't make Eugene a better man than he is....but I still would be happier with him as dad than Ian, I think.

That does not make him a better father.

Also because I simply love the ironic lines he gives Roy in book 1 and later. Reminds me of my dad.
What can I say? I love good rhetoric, even when I am on the recieving end of a quip. As long as the reasoning makes sense, I'm all for it.
Catch tetanus on the stick....he he

And if it was simply good natured ribbing that would be fine. But it isn’t, it’s a genuine expression of a father’s contempt for his son.

[Vendanna]

I know that my vision of Eugene may differ greatly from what Rich burlew thinks off, yet we know the character "tries" to be lawful good and we also must know that in Roy's story it MUST be seen as an obstacle for Roy (main reason we don't see him on screen doing a lot of good acts) we also should understand that an illusionist is a guy that tries his best to disguise something (why not his intentions?) also we know from Sara's point of view that she got to know the guy (reason why she told off roy when he badmouthed him in front of his mother)

But that’s not what is going on. Eugene did not miss a match he was going to with his son. He missed a match his son played in. That’s something Roy presumably trained for during the whole year. And winning is an achievement. It is not playing with LEGO or (solo) video gaming where there is no competition and where practice makes perfect, there was a real chance of failure. Not attending is sending the message that Roy’s achievement, possibly what Roy considered his biggest achievement at the time does not matter. Especially since this was not a singular event but a pattern. Eugene always missed Roy’s matches.

being evil's advocate here, I should remember you that this portrayal is to biase our views towards Eugene not caring to come from Roy's point of view, he could have perfectly see the entire game within the Divination school, which we know he can, then approximate the family after the game has ended.

Hilgya couldn’t scary on Durkon and she knew him. You’d expect Xykon to scrub on people he does not know exist? Also Eugene is a master illusionist.
Also I guess you did not look at the page Peelee told you to go to (understandable if you are at work or haven’t bought OtOoPCs) but Eugen is used to dying.

dunno why you brought there the "eugene is a master illusionists" without backing why it matters that he is a master illusionist. Also Eugene is "used to dying" as you said, BUT he knows very well and first hand that XYKON traps the souls of those he defeats (he did with his master in front of him) that means no resurrecting at all if Eugene fails the deed.

So would I but fatherly love has no business being conditional.

That’s hardly an excuse.

That does not make him a better father.

And if it was simply good natured ribbing that would be fine. But it isn’t, it’s a genuine expression of a father’s contempt for his son.

Well one man can not be a good father yet still be a plus for the forces of good altogetter, we don't even know if the man itself used a spell to know "which one would be the one to destroy Xykon?" and find out he ain't doing the deed himself (a possibility of why he stopped going after him) or if a spell told him the only way his Son is doing the deed is by being a total jackass to harden the boy. since that would fall in the "not shown" part of the tale to not make Eugene sympathetic to us the readers.

What we know thou, is that Roy finally did a step (even if he didn't know) to fix his relationship with his father when he didn't throw insults back at his father, and that there is a possibility that once the story is done and Roy does get his reward, we could get a non biased view of Eugene acts of good. (maybe he does ask the devas about him?). then I'll just wait to see what the author has prepared for us once that build-up moment finally comes.

[Quebbster]

dunno why you brought there the "eugene is a master illusionists" without backing why it matters that he is a master illusionist. Also Eugene is "used to dying" as you said, BUT he knows very well and first hand that XYKON traps the souls of those he defeats (he did with his master in front of him) that means no resurrecting at all if Eugene fails the deed.

I don't Think Xykon traps the souls of everyone he fights, the gem would be a lot more crowded if he had trapped any souls besides Lirian and Dorukan. Lirian was all alone in there until Dorukan got his soul trapped, after all.
Xykon did turn Fyron into a zombie, preventing Eugene from raising him though.

[Fyraltari]

I know that my vision of Eugene may differ greatly from what Rich burlew thinks off, yet we know the character "tries" to be lawful good and we also must know that in Roy's story it MUST be seen as an obstacle for Roy (main reason we don't see him on screen doing a lot of good acts) we also should understand that an illusionist is a guy that tries his best to disguise something (why not his intentions?) also we know from Sara's point of view that she got to know the guy (reason why she told off roy when he badmouthed him in front of his mother)

When it comes to one’s quality as a father whose point of view but the child’s matters?

being evil's advocate here, I should remember you that this portrayal is to biase our views towards Eugene not caring to come from Roy's point of view, he could have perfectly see the entire game within the Divination school, which we know he can, then approximate the family after the game has ended.

Approximate? Is that an autocorrect failure?
Anyway watching the game from afar does nothing to support Roy and we know he didn’t, so I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

dunno why you brought there the "eugene is a master illusionists" without backing why it matters that he is a master illusionist.

I assumed that the illusion school of magic provided countermeasures to Scrying. Was I wrong?

Also Eugene is "used to dying" as you said, BUT he knows very well and first hand that XYKON traps the souls of those he defeats (he did with his master in front of him) that means no resurrecting at all if Eugene fails the deed.

No he doesn’t. Xykon zombified Fyron, and seeing that Eugene’s old party seemed high level (based on Eugene himself) that wouldn’t stop Myrtok.

Well one man can not be a good father yet still be a plus for the forces of good altogetter

Yes one man can.

we don't even know if the man itself used a spell to know "which one would be the one to destroy Xykon?" and find out he ain't doing the deed himself (a possibility of why he stopped going after him) or if a spell told him the only way his Son is doing the deed is by being a total jackass to harden the boy. since that would fall in the "not shown" part of the tale to not make Eugene sympathetic to us the readers.

This is properly ridiculous. We don’t know that Xykon did not have a vision when he was three that told him that be acting as pointlessly evil all the time he would turn the Prime into a paradise. Seriously, we even know that Eugene went once and only once to the only character we know of with this kind of foresight and we know what he was told.

What we know thou, is that Roy finally did a step (even if he didn't know) to fix his relationship with his father when he didn't throw insults back at his father

And after that Eugene still agreed never to see his family again and even later told Roy his existence was a mistake. Roy matured. Eugene didn’t.

and that there is a possibility that once the story is done and Roy does get his reward, we could get a non biased view of Eugene acts of good. (maybe he does ask the devas about him?). then I'll just wait to see what the author has prepared for us once that build-up moment finally comes.

What would that change? Eugene could have been a selfless hero all these years it wouldn’t make him a better father.

[CJG]

When it comes to one’s quality as a father whose point of view but the child’s matters?

Well I certainly hope that there is some outside ideal since I’m pretty sure I win the mantle for “worst mom ever” during every vaccination, homework session and trip to boring boring Hebrew school.

To answer the actual OP from another perspective, I don’t find it necessary to be hyper involved in all of my kids’ activities, but I do find it necessary to make sure that they know that I care about them. Part of that care is showing some interest in their activities. My eldest does Tae Kwon Do, I know almost nothing about it, but I always ask him how class went, and I make sure that I am at every Belt graduation. I don’t have to learn everything because he is the expert and he likes teaching me about his interests.

If I were to fault Eugene with something, it would be not “allowing” his son to be more knowledgeable than he is in something. I think Horace probably suffered from the same delusion. If it didn’t interest him, than it wasn’t important, and if it wasn’t important than the kid wasn’t an expert fighter (or illusionist), he was just a dumb kid wasting his time on silly kid stuff.

I work in a STEM field and have seen my share of kids shoved through college by parents who would just not accept that their kids didn’t want to be doctors. Plenty of them end up in my labs, most don’t view their parents as monsters, just very myopic people. Granted, none of them had exploded siblings or completely neglectful parents, so there’s that.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Eugene can't be all bad!
He did (almost) make it to the LG afterlife, and the reason he fell short was a problem with law (not actively pursuing his vow) so there must be good in him!

[woweedd]

Eugene can't be all bad!
He did (almost) make it to the LG afterlife, and the reason he fell short was a problem with law (not actively pursuing his vow) so there must be good in him!

True. I mean, I got the impression Horace wasn't that good a dad either. The problem is, as any parent will tell you, there's a lot more to being a good parent then just "not being a jerk". Even well-intentioned people can screw it up in a hundred different ways.

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, to quote the Deva, "What complicates issues is that you've taken on the role of his commanding officer."

Well, I don't think it's Neutral precisely because Roy led Elan into the situation. If Roy failed to help a stranger, that would be Neutral. Roy being a teammate of Elan is a Lawful issue; but Roy leading Elan into danger and then deliberately abandoning him is a Good-Evil issue, I think.

Again, I'm in broad agreement that leading a 22-year-old-5-year-old into situations of deadly peril within monster-infested dungeons and wilderness areas was a very morally questionable thing to do... if we were taking the proceedings seriously. But taking the proceedings seriously would imply that rescuing Elan entailed such a high degree of risk that Roy was reasonably entitled to make a call to move on.

In practice, the idea that Roy was abandoning Elan to some grisly fate of death or enslavement is pretty undermined by Elan being... completely fine and dandy until Haley shows up, and the general looney-toons logic of the ensuing battle. It's assigning a moral gravity to the proceedings that just isn't sustained by the tone of the narrative, and there's only around a 50-strip gap between here and Elan recklessly endangering scores of hapless goblinoids and his teammates, which, if not explicitly done out of malice, would be hard to otherwise explain.

To be honest, the main impression I get, given the way that Roy treats NPCs as interchangeable cyphers and later sticks up for Belkar, is less that the commander has an obligation to his men and more that the PCs are a special and protected class of person with expectations of mutual loyalty but immune to broader standards of accountability for their actions. (Which is, in practice, exactly what happens at D&D gaming tables for entirely metagame reasons, and I'm not crazy about that.)

I am aware that the Deva takes the incident seriously later on, but.... that is what I am arguing is kinda wonky. To the extent that Roy was mildly at fault here, he made up for it pretty quickly and has done enough to put up with Elan's general... Elan-ness... that I think it's mostly a nonissue (aside, perhaps, from the general undertone of emotional abuse in their relationship.) And we shouldn't automatically think things just because the text tells us to.

[Wizard_Lizard]

True. I mean, I got the impression Horace wasn't that good a dad either. The problem is, as any parent will tell you, there's a lot more to being a good parent then just "not being a jerk". Even well-intentioned people can screw it up in a hundred different ways.

Too true...

[Quebbster]

Eugene can't be all bad!
He did (almost) make it to the LG afterlife, and the reason he fell short was a problem with law (not actively pursuing his vow) so there must be good in him!

The way I read it is that Eugene considers Mount Celestia to be the right afterlife for him. Whether or not the devas agree is Another matter - Roy's deva did say she could send him to the True Neutral afterlife without consequences after all.