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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    The panel that reads "This dungeon is suitable for 4-6 players of 9th level" indicates that it's a dungeon, in the D&D sense. Never heard of one of those that didn't involve a bunch of killing before getting to the boss. And very rarely heard of one of those where the boss wasn't doing something evil.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    I, for one, have.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Looking through my SOD copy right now, I will note that Eugene says the only reason he never went adventuring for Xykon again since meeting Sarah is because he could never get a solid lead on him. So he was still very open to fulfilling the Oath, he just didn't have the luck. I don't know if that means anything to anyone.

    I'll also note he specifically said he would have abandoned his family without a second thought so... yeah.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Looking through my SOD copy right now, I will note that Eugene says the only reason he never went adventuring for Xykon again since meeting Sarah is because he could never get a solid lead on him. So he was still very open to fulfilling the Oath, he just didn't have the luck. I don't know if that means anything to anyone.
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    It means he lied: Right-Eye gave him a solid lead; well after he met Sarah, seeing as Eugene missed Roy's game for that meeting.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2019-04-25 at 03:15 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Looking through my SOD copy right now, I will note that Eugene says the only reason he never went adventuring for Xykon again since meeting Sarah is because he could never get a solid lead on him. So he was still very open to fulfilling the Oath, he just didn't have the luck. I don't know if that means anything to anyone.
    Eh, Eugene says a lot of stuff. I wonder how long the Oracle of the Sunken Valley has been around for, though...
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
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    It means he lied: Right-Eye gave him a solid lead; well after he met Sarah, seeing as Eugene missed Roy's game for that meeting.
    Ah, right. Makes him even worse then.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Ah, right. Makes him even worse then.
    It does seem like an odd thing to lie about, though.

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    It does seem like an odd thing to lie about, though.
    I think the implication is what he spells out here: in retrospect, he's chagrined that he ever cared about anyone else instead of being a perfect magicbot. It doesn't go against his self-image that he missed Roy's game, but it does go against his self-image that he rejected a chance to find Xykon.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Eh, Eugene says a lot of stuff. I wonder how long the Oracle of the Sunken Valley has been around for, though...
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    Long enough for Eugene to wake up outside a valley with an amnesia, a name and less money than before*. He probably concluded that he got all he could from the Oracle and there was no point in trying again since who would be dumb to the point of enforcing a "one question per customer" rule?


    *And an incomprehensible joke about someone called mr Belvedere.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-04-25 at 03:28 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
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    Long enough for Eugene to wake up outside a valley with an amnesia, a name and less money than before*. He probably concluded that he got all he could from the Oracle and there was no point in trying again since who would be dumb to the point of enforcing a "one question per customer" rule?


    *And an incomprehensible joke about someone called mr Belvedere.
    Imean, I got the reference and still though the joke was odd.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I think the implication is what he spells out here: in retrospect, he's chagrined that he ever cared about anyone else instead of being a perfect magicbot. It doesn't go against his self-image that he missed Roy's game, but it does go against his self-image that he rejected a chance to find Xykon.
    That could be. I was thinking it was against his self-image to admit he was unable to find Xykon with his own power, particularly since the only reason he told Roy was so Roy could tell Julia, who could think less of Eugene for it....But in retrospect, he had already admitted that, hadn't he?

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    *And an incomprehensible joke about someone called mr Belvedere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Imean, I got the reference and still though the joke was odd.
    Oh, the joke is totally inexplicable, but I still find it really funny. Maybe Rich is a member of the Guy Who Plays Mr. Belvedere Fan Club.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Oh, the joke is totally inexplicable, but I still find it really funny.
    That's the best way to put it. It was funny, but just out of nowhere.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    So was the set up in the series. Out of nowhere, typical American suburban family acquires a British butler. I don't think it was ever addressed.

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Eugene, Roy & Football (SOD spoiler!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Again, I'm in broad agreement that leading a 22-year-old-5-year-old into situations of deadly peril within monster-infested dungeons and wilderness areas was a very morally questionable thing to do... if we were taking the proceedings seriously. But taking the proceedings seriously would imply that rescuing Elan entailed such a high degree of risk that Roy was reasonably entitled to make a call to move on.

    In practice, the idea that Roy was abandoning Elan to some grisly fate of death or enslavement is pretty undermined by Elan being... completely fine and dandy until Haley shows up, and the general looney-toons logic of the ensuing battle. It's assigning a moral gravity to the proceedings that just isn't sustained by the tone of the narrative, and there's only around a 50-strip gap between here and Elan recklessly endangering scores of hapless goblinoids and his teammates, which, if not explicitly done out of malice, would be hard to otherwise explain.

    To be honest, the main impression I get, given the way that Roy treats NPCs as interchangeable cyphers and later sticks up for Belkar, is less that the commander has an obligation to his men and more that the PCs are a special and protected class of person with expectations of mutual loyalty but immune to broader standards of accountability for their actions. (Which is, in practice, exactly what happens at D&D gaming tables for entirely metagame reasons, and I'm not crazy about that.)

    I am aware that the Deva takes the incident seriously later on, but.... that is what I am arguing is kinda wonky. To the extent that Roy was mildly at fault here, he made up for it pretty quickly and has done enough to put up with Elan's general... Elan-ness... that I think it's mostly a nonissue (aside, perhaps, from the general undertone of emotional abuse in their relationship.) And we shouldn't automatically think things just because the text tells us to.
    If he really wants to rid of Elan, he should not bring him with himself to a dangerous forest. He's the reason that they're here and responsible for their wellbeing and their actions. You're right about Roy's attitude to NPCs and inconsistent writing, but that doesn't acquit Roy from what he done.
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