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    Default Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    For those of you who don't know, this feat is the psicrystal's version of improved familiar. Basically instead of a psicrystal you get an elemental steward (Complete Psionics p.130) and the elemental steward gives you all the benefits your psicrystal gives.

    So why is this feat AWESOME? Because of GEODITES.
    1. This feat is obtainable at level 1.
    2. Geodites have DR5/- AC17 making them absolutely phenomenal tanks at low levels.
    3. Geodites have BURROW SPEED that can BURROW THROUGH STONE. This is why Elemental Envoy is fantastic! It's basically an at-will non-combat disintegrate. You can destroy walls, bypass vast portions of a dungeon (like a trap or a gate that cannot be opened unless you solve a puzzle) or create choke points (by forcing enemies to fight in these small-sized tunnels and which forces them to squeeze) and force the enemies to fight on your terms rather than theirs. You can create a rest area in the dungeon and cut off all entrances by causing a cave-in that can be re-burrowed through.

    The reason I'm posting this is because the guides I found online all say this feat is terrible and it's not true. Geodite's combat capability may becomes nonexistant after like level 4 or 5 but the burrow speed should stay relevant for a really, really long time and at level 1 they're a contender for most powerful minion.

    During my play test at level 1 the Geodite solo'd entire encounters due to his DR5/- and at later levels I used the burrow speed to attack and retreat like guerillas and when the enemies gave chase into the tunnels the Geodite would block their path with a Tower Shield while I killed everything with matter agitation. For stronger encounters I got creative and spent some time setting up traps in the tunnels that would completely block passage when triggered to secure a retreat. That way I can matter agitation a creature, retreat, and then just sit there concentration for a minute or two to kill the guy who can't stop his death because a giant rock is blocking his path to me.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    That one EE is good at level 1.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't scale, so it's gonna be dead by level 3, and I don't think there's any way to actually replace a dead one.

    So if you absolutely need to survive solo at level 1, it's okay, but you're basically burning a feat permanently for a very temporary benefit. Using that feat for a psicrystal is vastly better, since they actually gain some seriously nice abilities (though no tanky ones at level 1), and if you need a tank, you're massively better off obtaining an animal companion via Wild Cohort. Those you can replace.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-04-23 at 10:23 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3

    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    That one EE is good at level 1.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't scale, so it's gonna be dead by level 3, and I don't think there's any way to actually replace a dead one.

    So if you absolutely need to survive solo at level 1, it's okay, but you're basically burning a feat permanently for a very temporary benefit. Using that feat for a psicrystal is vastly better, since they actually gain some seriously nice abilities (though no tanky ones at level 1), and if you need a tank, you're massively better off obtaining an animal companion via Wild Cohort. Those you can replace.
    Psionic Handbook's rules for replacing Psicrystals is the default. If you read the description of Elemental Envoy it says "When you are able to acquire a new psicrystal" and "until dismissed or destroyed." which is identical to familiars, which is what the rules in Psionic Handbooks says (except wait time is 6 months not a year and a day).

    My claim is that the Burrow Speed stays relevant past level 3. Don't know until when but it's gonna definitely be until mid levels. And you can always retrain or psychic reformation it out once you do hit mid levels.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    you're basically burning a feat permanently
    Well, I mean, when you're playing a psion, no feat is ever burnt permanently (once you reach level 7, anyway)

    Using that feat for a psicrystal is vastly better,
    You have to already have Psicrystal Affinity to take Elemental Envoy, so it's actually 2 feats (unless you're an Erudite and get PA for free)

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Do they gain HD the way psicrystals do? If so, while the feats and skills may not be any "better" than the psicrystal's own, they might be used to improve on the already-stronger chassis.

    Do they have hands? Can you give them weapons? Other than the semi-obvious share pain/vigor combo, are there any psicrystal tricks that work better with a tougher chassis?

    Psicrystals don't gain size with HD; do Geodites?

    The image of a psicrystal with Claws of the Beast is more comical than threatening; are Geodites better able to use them?

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Psionic Handbook's rules for replacing Psicrystals is the default. If you read the description of Elemental Envoy it says "When you are able to acquire a new psicrystal" and "until dismissed or destroyed." which is identical to familiars, which is what the rules in Psionic Handbooks says (except wait time is 6 months not a year and a day).

    My claim is that the Burrow Speed stays relevant past level 3. Don't know until when but it's gonna definitely be until mid levels. And you can always retrain or psychic reformation it out once you do hit mid levels.
    According to WotC, if your psicrystal dies, "You get another one," which is less than helpful. And since 3.5 psicrystals are gotten from a feat and not a class feature, you should be able to get another one right away, instead of waiting until after most campaigns end in order to replace it.

    If nothing else, using psychic reformation to replace the feat should allow you to get another one right away.

    Still, elemental envoys don't actually gain any hp or save bonuses as they gain in levels. Sure, they gain some other abilities that encourage them to get into melee faster, but that just means they're more likely to die nigh immediately as collateral damage.

    And psicrystals are still far tougher and vastly more versatile than they are. Now, if the feat allowed a psicrystal to turn into elemental steward forms...
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-04-23 at 10:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Still, elemental envoys don't actually gain any hp or save bonuses as they gain in levels. Sure, they gain some other abilities that encourage them to get into melee faster, but that just means they're more likely to die nigh immediately as collateral damage.
    They don't? I'm not saying I don't believe you, just that I don't know what rules say this. Can you elaborate, please?

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    They don't gain HD at all, from what I'm reading in CPsi. They gain a Nat Armor bonus, a Cha bonus, and an ML bonus, and that's about it.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    They don't gain HD at all, from what I'm reading in CPsi. They gain a Nat Armor bonus, a Cha bonus, and an ML bonus, and that's about it.
    They also don't have the part of the psicrystal's entry where it states that the psicrystal's hp equal half its master's. Same goes for their saving throws.

    I can't really quote something that isn't there. The best I could do is quote all the text in regards to the feat to show there's nothing, or you could read it yourself on CPsi p53. No scaling HD, no hp, no saves.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-04-23 at 10:50 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10

    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    You guys are missing the point! Burrow Speed! How can the ability to destroy dungeon walls at-will not be worth a feat? Screw combat capability! ( though vigor + share pain still works). BURROW SPEED! WALL DESTRUCTION! TUNNEL BYPASS DUNGEON PUZZLES!

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    You guys are missing the point! Burrow Speed! How can the ability to destroy dungeon walls at-will not be worth a feat? Screw combat capability! ( though vigor + share pain still works). BURROW SPEED! WALL DESTRUCTION! TUNNEL BYPASS DUNGEON PUZZLES!
    Or you could just take time hop as a power known and not permanently waste a feat.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-04-23 at 10:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Or you could just take time hop as a power known and not permanently waste a feat.
    Time Hop is 3rd level so earliest you get is 5th level, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on walls as it is too big, and again, Retraining or Psychic Reformation. I don't think you are fully grasping the utility of Disintegrate since that is what this burrow speed is (doesn't work on wood though).

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

    I'm not seeing an exception to this in the Geodite entry in CPsi pg131. Did I miss something?

  14. - Top - End - #14

    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    I'm not seeing an exception to this in the Geodite entry in CPsi pg131. Did I miss something?
    Yes you did

    Quote Originally Posted by Complete Psionic
    Geodites inhabit the Elemental Plane of Earth, where they enjoy slowly burrowing through all the mineral varieties of stone with shaped sonic bursts. Geodites have an inborn
    talent for spatial mapping, and it is said they can never become lost while they stand on stone.
    ...
    Geodites dwell together in small communities. They get along well with most other earth elemental creatures. They enjoy creating complex dwellings of spiraling tunnels with long galleries, great hollows, and small, doorless nodes in the earth.
    By default creatures don't leave a usable tunnel. It needs to be explicitly said. Look at Badger and Dire Badger.

    In this case we do have a description that says they burrow through stone and they create tunnels.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Even if it does, as a DM I would just adapt. Monsters hear rumors of wandering adventurers who pup up out of the stone from these tiny tunnels, start to keep things like boiling oil for fort defense... Have fun squeezing through a tunnel and having that poured in with you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    I guess I'll amend my original statement and instead say that Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5 to spark an argument about how close it actually is.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Yes you did



    By default creatures don't leave a usable tunnel. It needs to be explicitly said. Look at Badger and Dire Badger.

    In this case we do have a description that says they burrow through stone and they create tunnels.
    I did read that, but dismissed it as just being part of the fluff. It's in the 'Ecology' heading, which judging from the other Ecology entries in CPsi seems like it usually just describes where and how a given creature lives in the wild, and it's typical size/weight. Is it really rules text describing a creature's ingame mechanical abilities?

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kool View Post
    Even if it does, as a DM I would just adapt. Monsters hear rumors of wandering adventurers who pup up out of the stone from these tiny tunnels, start to keep things like boiling oil for fort defense... Have fun squeezing through a tunnel and having that poured in with you.
    True but still doesn't stop the PCs from breaking down every wall they come across.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drysdan View Post
    I did read that, but dismissed it as just being part of the fluff. It's in the 'Ecology' heading, which judging from the other Ecology entries in CPsi seems like it usually just describes where and how a given creature lives in the wild, and it's typical size/weight. Is it really rules text describing a creature's ingame mechanical abilities?
    The question is, can Geodites make tunnels? y/n. If y then no reason they can't make tunnels in-game. The important thing to note is that they create spiraling tunnels. I guess you can make a case that making tunnels might take longer than just burrowing through but not only is this difference trivial, but also highly unlikely since we're talking about stone here and not loose dirt.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    They also don't have the part of the psicrystal's entry where it states that the psicrystal's hp equal half its master's. Same goes for their saving throws.

    I can't really quote something that isn't there. The best I could do is quote all the text in regards to the feat to show there's nothing, or you could read it yourself on CPsi p53. No scaling HD, no hp, no saves.
    So the feat changes the advancement rules from what is printed for psicrystals, then? There's clear lack of inheritance of the psicrystal HD advancement?

    Again, not arguing, just trying to answer your question about what you can tell me to clarify. I'm AFB right now and can't get access to C.Psi until tonight.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Searching the SRD, I find the following entries of burrowing monsters that leave usable tunnels (there might be more, it was a relatively quick search):
    A burrowing ankheg usually does not make a usable tunnel, but can construct a tunnel; it burrows at half speed when it does so.
    A frost worn cannot burrow through stone, but can manage ice and frozen earth. When moving through such hard materials it leaves behind a usable tunnel about 5 feet in diameter.
    A dire badger usually leaves behind a usable tunnel 5 feet in diameter when burrowing unless the material it’s moving through is very loose.
    Geodites dwell together in small communities. They get along well with most other earth elemental creatures. They enjoy creating complex dwellings of spiraling tunnels with long galleries, great hollows, and small, doorless nodes in the earth.
    As you can see, each case specifically refers to usable tunnels created when burrowing. Except the Geodite, which merely make reference to artistic tendencies in creating tunnels. It mentions nothing about tunnels in relation to it's ability to burrow. In fact, it specifically mentions doorless nodes... This directly implies that the Geodite can, and usually does, pass through stone without leaving a tunnel. If they didn't, they couldn't leave such a room 'doorless'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    I guess I'll amend my original statement and instead say that Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5 to spark an argument about how close it actually is.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    So the feat changes the advancement rules from what is printed for psicrystals, then? There's clear lack of inheritance of the psicrystal HD advancement?

    Again, not arguing, just trying to answer your question about what you can tell me to clarify. I'm AFB right now and can't get access to C.Psi until tonight.
    Yes, there's clear lack of inheritance. It gains no HP, and no HD. Aside from Nat Armor, Cha, and ML adjustments, and some listed abilities similar to those found in the psicrystal's advancement chart (share power, deliver touch powers, etc), it doesn't advance in anything. It's just stuck at the geodite's stablock for stats/abilities. Here's the relevant section:



    Quote Originally Posted by CPsi pg 53
    The special abilities of an elemental envoy advance in a way similar to that of a psicrystal. As you increase in level, your elemental envoy gains a bonus to its natural armor, its Charisma score (which affects the save DCs of its psi-like abilities), and the manifester level for its psi-like abilities. Special abilities on the table refer to the psicrystal special abilities of the same name (EPH 22).

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kool View Post
    Searching the SRD, I find the following entries of burrowing monsters that leave usable tunnels (there might be more, it was a relatively quick search):




    As you can see, each case specifically refers to usable tunnels created when burrowing. Except the Geodite, which merely make reference to artistic tendencies in creating tunnels. It mentions nothing about tunnels in relation to it's ability to burrow. In fact, it specifically mentions doorless nodes... This directly implies that the Geodite can, and usually does, pass through stone without leaving a tunnel. If they didn't, they couldn't leave such a room 'doorless'.
    Like I said the important thing to note here is whether they can destroy stone walls or not. Ability to burrow through stone via shaped sonic Blasts and ability to create tunnels definitely say yes. The most the DM can do is say Geodites can't make usable tunnels in combat. But this is highly sketchy because we're talking about stone not dirt and their burrow method is shaped sonic blasts aka EXPLOSIONS. But again this is a trivial difference because I'm not saying the Geodite's burrow is for combat purposes. I repeat it's for out of combat utility like breaking down walls and tunneling under magically enchanted trapped giant metal gates.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    They also don't have the part of the psicrystal's entry where it states that the psicrystal's hp equal half its master's. Same goes for their saving throws.

    I can't really quote something that isn't there. The best I could do is quote all the text in regards to the feat to show there's nothing, or you could read it yourself on CPsi p53. No scaling HD, no hp, no saves.
    I think the intention was for them to work just like a psicrystal, but with the differences shown in the advancement table; and that's probably how I would house-rule it. But by RAW, it's just awful.

    {EDIT: Ninja'd}
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2019-04-23 at 11:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Well, reading the entry, these "shaped sonic bursts" are never actually stated to leave behind tunnels or destroy anything, and to put an even finer point on it, nowhere does the stat block or ability list mention anything about destroying stone, creating tunnels, or leaving behind tunnels. All we get is one reference to burrowing by sonic blasts (which doesn't specify it leaves a tunnel, or even destroys the stone), and the ecology section describing the homes they like to make. Dwarves like to live in and create giant halls of stone too... do they have some innate explosive psionic ability not listed in the PHB?

    EDIT: I mean, if we refer only to the ability to destroy stone, even Human commoners can do that...
    Last edited by The Kool; 2019-04-23 at 11:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    I guess I'll amend my original statement and instead say that Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5 to spark an argument about how close it actually is.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    At the very least, it seems like there's leeway for a DM to rule either way on tunnel-creation via burrowing.


    If it doesn't advance HD, the psicrystal rapidly becomes a stronger monster, I think.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kool View Post
    Well, reading the entry, these "shaped sonic bursts" are never actually stated to leave behind tunnels or destroy anything, and to put an even finer point on it, nowhere does the stat block or ability list mention anything about destroying stone, creating tunnels, or leaving behind tunnels. All we get is one reference to burrowing by sonic blasts (which doesn't specify it leaves a tunnel, or even destroys the stone), and the ecology section describing the homes they like to make. Dwarves like to live in and create giant halls of stone too... do they have some innate explosive psionic ability not listed in the PHB?

    EDIT: I mean, if we refer only to the ability to destroy stone, even Human commoners can do that...
    This isn't earth glide so if the Geodite burrows through a stone wall it's gonna decimate it. Xorns for example have a Burrow Speed but it's explicitly mentioned to not leave a tunnel because it is an earth glide. Frost Worms on the other hand do leave a tunnel because they don't have an Earth Glide.

    So if you're saying a Geodite burrowing through stone with sonic explosions doesn't leave a tunnel, then this non-tunnel is gonna be made up of broken rock bits that can easily be shoveled out. Again, being able to create tunnels in-combat is not a factor. Who cares if a 50ft tunnel takes 10minutes to dig out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    At the very least, it seems like there's leeway for a DM to rule either way on tunnel-creation via burrowing.


    If it doesn't advance HD, the psicrystal rapidly becomes a stronger monster, I think.
    At which point you retrain out when you want the psicrystal's combat capability or you no longer need burrow speed.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-04-23 at 11:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    So if you're saying a Geodite burrowing through stone with sonic explosions doesn't leave a tunnel, then this non-tunnel is gonna be made up of broken rock bits that can easily be shoveled out. Again, being able to create tunnels in-combat is not a factor. Who cares if a 50ft tunnel takes 10minutes to dig out?
    Then why bother spending a feat? Just grab some shovels and pickaxes.

    No, seriously. Try this with your DM. If you can spend 10 minutes on something, you can probably spend an hour, or arrange circumstances so that you have many hours, or even days to work. Stone will take a while, but mundane equipment will go right through it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogglesmash View Post
    I guess I'll amend my original statement and instead say that Pathfinder is close enough to 3.5 to spark an argument about how close it actually is.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by RoboEmperor View Post
    Like I said the important thing to note here is whether they can destroy stone walls or not.
    A burrow speed doesn't come attached with the explicit ability to destroy or even significantly damage anything.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    A burrow speed doesn't come attached with the explicit ability to destroy or even significantly damage anything.
    Which is why you read the creature description for elaboration. Burrow speed doesn't come attached with the explicit ability to burrow through stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kool View Post
    Then why bother spending a feat? Just grab some shovels and pickaxes.

    No, seriously. Try this with your DM. If you can spend 10 minutes on something, you can probably spend an hour, or arrange circumstances so that you have many hours, or even days to work. Stone will take a while, but mundane equipment will go right through it.
    One of my DM's family members runs a small mining operation creating asphalt and he didn't doubt for a second that shaped explosions did leave a tunnel.
    Last edited by RoboEmperor; 2019-04-23 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Kool View Post
    Then why bother spending a feat? Just grab some shovels and pickaxes.
    Unfortunately, pickaxes deal piercing damage. You cannot sunder objects using piercing damage, so you cannot use pickaxes to break stone, via RAW.

    Yes, it's dumb. Yes, it's the rules.

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    Default Re: Elemental Envoy is fantastic!

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Unfortunately, pickaxes deal piercing damage. You cannot sunder objects using piercing damage, so you cannot use pickaxes to break stone, via RAW.

    Yes, it's dumb. Yes, it's the rules.
    Clearly, pickaxes have a special property that lets them be used as tools for digging.

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