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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    I have no problem with this. In fact, I look forward to it.

    However, it's not okay anymore when the new players who have false expectations because of these shows start throwing a fit when DM doesn't do it like Matt.
    I generally don't like players that throw a fit, I tend to lump them in with players that don't read.
    As for Critical Role, I don't think they are responsible for players throwing a fit when they don't get what they want, and they are not a bad example of d&d, just not the one true way.
    Players that believe in a one true way tend to be insufferable regardless of what that way is.

    My vibes feel unusually harsh, sorry if I harshed anyone else's.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    I generally don't like players that throw a fit, I tend to lump them in with players that don't read.
    As for Critical Role, I don't think they are responsible for players throwing a fit when they don't get what they want, and they are not a bad example of d&d, just not the one true way.
    Players that believe in a one true way tend to be insufferable regardless of what that way is.

    My vibes feel unusually harsh, sorry if I harshed anyone else's.
    Oh, I didn't say Critical Role was to be accused for their viewers throwing a fit in private games, per sé. Obviously it's not Critical Role's, Matt's, or similar shows' fault that people watching them are unable to use their heads and read the actual rules instead of taking everything from the shows as one true way. It's certainly a bit unfair to judge the shows for the viewers' behavior, but they just happen to be part of the reason, however unintentional. My problem is, however, with the people who can't or refuse to understand that those shows just have their own sets of houserules in effect, and that their way of doing things is perhaps not the only true way.

    Whether I like the shows themselves is another question entirely, and completely unrelated to the players/viewers being an issue.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2019-04-26 at 03:36 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by jjordan View Post
    Looking at the differences between the various gaming styles led me to this Wikipedia entry on Narrative Gaming and that led me to this Wikipedia entry on GNS Theory. Not drawing any conclusions, but it's interesting reading.
    GNS theory/storygaming/The Forge certainly was 'the talked about thing' in gaming theory last decade. How do you think they fit with Critical Role/viewable or podcastable gaming?

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    GNS theory/storygaming/The Forge certainly was 'the talked about thing' in gaming theory last decade. How do you think they fit with Critical Role/viewable or podcastable gaming?
    I've got many more hours of reading to do so I'm not sure. Off the top of my head I think CR is more of a narrativist setting and much less of a gamist setting. I also think, based on my quick reading, that GNS Theory comes across as a subtle (and not so subtle) criticism of gamism.

    I find the whole debate interesting because I've always leaned toward a simulation/narrative approach. Little bit of a tangent, when I lived in India I came across A Book of Sandhurst Wargames which contained a WWII game based on the work of S.L.A. Marshall ('Men Against Fire' most particularly). It was a wargame set in the Pacific Theater of combat during WWII in which each player controlled one man. Each player was given a random objective and they could not win the game unless they accomplished that objective. The objectives could be to kill an enemy or to avoid firing your rifle or to avoid exposing yourself to risk. The point of the game was to teach junior leaders that each of their soldiers had his own motivations and to recognize these motivations and adapt their command style to get the overall mission accomplished. It was a roleplaying wargame and it resonated with me.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCleverGuy View Post
    I.have read through all the comments, and I think you're 6 for 7. I dont remember anyone claiming fudged dice rolls, specifically.
    haha, oh well, almost 7 for 7. That being said, I searched the word "Roll" and came come across this post which is pretty darn close!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    The problem with these shows is that in most cases they don't seem to follow the rules by the book, and almost seem to follow a loose script which has been rehearsed in advance. The dice rolls that are shown seem to be only for show, while the results of those rolls are still handwaved to match the script. For the audience who might have never played the actual game themselves, this paints a misleading image of how the game should run its course. For an inexperienced viewer, the illusion of rules mastery by the DM and the other players can lead to misunderstandings and thus, false expectations when they end up having their first actual game sessions.
    Although it does sound like OP was making a general reference to live D&D shows in general and not necessarily specifically CR.

    I know I have come across other shows that definitely seem like they are handwaving a certain amount of rules, but I don't know if I can recall any instances in which I felt that way about their dice rolls or that they were following a set script.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Imbalance's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by WOTC_GM View Post
    On the other hand, the hate hard-on some people have for Critical Role/Other D&D Live streaming groups can be mind-boggling at times.. It seems to be the same groups of people spamming the same basic comments ad nausem, as though the sheer existence of Critical Role was somehow a personal affront to them.

    Without reading through all of the comments, I can almost guarantee that someone has already claimed that..
    ...
    7. "I've watched a few clips and a bit of the first episode and found it boring therefore the entire series must be boring. / I can't believe anyone wastes their time watching a 3-4 hour show when instead they could be out playing D&D or prepping for their own campaign like a REAL DM does" (No comment...)
    I'm not sure how not spending hours watching reality tv/voyeur/sharesphere videos equates to hate. Simply put, not everybody has that kind of spare time, nor does it present an enjoyable form of entertainment to all viewers, unless your (no comment) comment would have had more to explain. Am I reading this properly?

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Imbalance View Post
    I'm not sure how not spending hours watching reality tv/voyeur/sharesphere videos equates to hate. Simply put, not everybody has that kind of spare time, nor does it present an enjoyable form of entertainment to all viewers, unless your (no comment) comment would have had more to explain. Am I reading this properly?
    My comment was not towards those who are too busy/don't want to watch a long running show, but to those who feel the need to crap on the enjoyment of others for doing so.

    Not having the time to spend watching the show does not equate to hate of course, but it's the type of people who feel the need to comment on every other CR related thread saying how they think others are wasting their time watching/listening to it, or that the those who would dedicate the time to watch the show are not "real D&D players" is where the hatred towards to show and viewers begins to leak out.


    After taking some time to actually go through more of the posts, I did come across this one, which is sort of what I was referring to. Although I must admit there have been fewer comments in this thread regarding this specific issue than I am used to seeing, and by no means is this comment dripping with hate towards the show or viewers, but it should hopefully give you a better idea of what I was referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Kurageous View Post
    Huzzah! Spoken like a true DM!

    This is my reason why. I can create, refine, review, reflect...as opposed to just passively sit and maybe learn something to do or not do. These streams are for players and wannabe players who don't have other players to entertain for hours.

    Personally, I do some of my best DM prep work while i'm listening to CR, and it can sometimes be frustrating seeing the fans of the show being lumped into a category of "wannabe players".

    I find that I am rarely just sitting on my ass for 4 hours watching a stream; the show is akin to a podcast that I listen to while I work on other tasks/commute.
    Last edited by WOTC_GM; 2019-04-26 at 03:12 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by MilkmanDanimal View Post
    Will embrace? They're very much embracing. Chris Perkins showed up for an utterly HILARIOUS guest spot back in IIRC episode 50, and the Critical Role members regularly are invited to D&D events like last years Stream of Many Eyes and this year's The Descent. WOTC is absolutely aware that Critical Role is one of the drivers of the pretty crazy sales growth they've seen in recent years, so they know the profits they're pulling in are very much due to the show. It's very much an "everybody wins" situation, and, when a very professional cartoon debuts next year that's going to show up everywhere as "that D&D cartoon that broke all the Kickstarter records", it'll be even better for WOTC.
    I'm on the periphery looking in, so had no idea about this. Fair play to WotC for going this route. It's quite refreshing compared to someone like Games Workshop, who previously hunted down fans and closed websites. (this may well have changed, it's been some years since I played)

    Quote Originally Posted by WOTC_GM View Post
    Personally, I do some of my best DM prep work while i'm listening to CR
    If it works for you, great. Inspiration is where we find it.

    Toxicity seems to be abundant nowadays unfortunately, with the internet making everyone faceless. I've not seen a lot regarding TTRPG's myself, and that is something I like amongst the community as a whole.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    GNS theory/storygaming/The Forge certainly was 'the talked about thing' in gaming theory last decade. How do you think they fit with Critical Role/viewable or podcastable gaming?
    After doing some digging and reading the material I found I think that GNS/GDS as a tool for analyzing RPG systems is a little broken. As a tool for analyzing player style/desires it's pretty good. But reading about that led me to the WotC survey in 1999 (with online summaries here and here) which looks to be more useful still, particularly the first link.

    I would guess the most successful streams are the most story oriented (other significant factors have to come into play but I'm not even going to attempt to list them) because those are the closest to traditional media and the most accessible for observers/watchers.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Personally, one of my favorites is how everybody respects one-another's fictional space during their turn. What I mean is, at my table there's a lot of "Wait no don't do that, go here!" or "What are you doing, dont cast spiritual weapon, heal us more!"

    At least as far as I've seen in CR (and I'm admittedly only a bit into season 1), everybody patiently waits for their turn. They dont try and influence the other players at the table outside of their turn, or out of character. (If they do I honestly haven't seen it be an issue, which speaks volumes as to how they go about it.)

    It's part of what makes it a joy to watch, as a DM. Everybody wants to DM like Matt Mercer, but I just wish my players were a bit more like Vox Machina.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Critical Role is an example of D&D gaming. Not a standard, be it for players or for DMs.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by jjordan View Post
    After doing some digging and reading the material I found I think that GNS/GDS as a tool for analyzing RPG systems is a little broken. As a tool for analyzing player style/desires it's pretty good. But reading about that led me to the WotC survey in 1999 (with online summaries here and here) which looks to be more useful still, particularly the first link.

    I would guess the most successful streams are the most story oriented (other significant factors have to come into play but I'm not even going to attempt to list them) because those are the closest to traditional media and the most accessible for observers/watchers.
    Hmm... So that is where the idea started. This is really cool! More can be found in the 3.5 DMG II, the 4e DMG, and I think, a page in the 5e one, that break it into 8 or 9 roles, of Actor (Roleplay), Explorer(Find new things), Instigator (Get in trouble), Power Gamer (Numbers and power), Slayer (Beat up bad guys), Storyteller (Game of a novel, Novel of a game), Thinker (Outsmart the foe), Watcher (Be with friends). I would guess that most of players who stream successfuly are of the Actor, Storyteller, Explorer, and Instigator persuasions, with a few slayers and thinkers, if only because the math of a power gamer is boring to watch, and a stream is devoted, lacking new or shyer players. (This said without watching any streams).
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by jjordan View Post
    Looking at the differences between the various gaming styles led me to this Wikipedia entry on Narrative Gaming and that led me to this Wikipedia entry on GNS Theory. Not drawing any conclusions, but it's interesting reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by jjordan View Post
    After doing some digging and reading the material I found I think that GNS/GDS as a tool for analyzing RPG systems is a little broken. As a tool for analyzing player style/desires it's pretty good. But reading about that led me to the WotC survey in 1999 (with online summaries here and here) which looks to be more useful still, particularly the first link.
    Be aware that GnS theory was formulated by someone trying to push an agenda that all real RPGs are "Narrativist". A real "Roleplaying = story + acting" elitist. It's a thoroughly discredited "theory" by this point.

    The worst part about it is it's a (intentional) trap for folks who read it for the first time. The designer in question wrote it so it would lure in new people reading it, because it just makes so much sense, am I right?

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Be aware that GnS theory was formulated by someone trying to push an agenda that all real RPGs are "Narrativist". A real "Roleplaying = story + acting" elitist. It's a thoroughly discredited "theory" by this point.
    Does the model really lead to this conclusion, or was it the first casualty of the agenda?

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Be aware that GnS theory was formulated by someone trying to push an agenda that all real RPGs are "Narrativist". A real "Roleplaying = story + acting" elitist. It's a thoroughly discredited "theory" by this point.

    The worst part about it is it's a (intentional) trap for folks who read it for the first time. The designer in question wrote it so it would lure in new people reading it, because it just makes so much sense, am I right?
    I'm predisposed to agree with the argument because I favor a roleplaying bent to my games, but I try to take that into account and I felt the anti-gamist bent was fairly apparent from the start. I started going back to the original discussion and quickly lost interest in it because it turned into a series of flame wars. I still think that GNS was/is flawed as a tool for system/game analysis and as a way of 'proving' that one style of play is superior to another it's nothing more than opinion. I think it does have value as a way of helping to understand player preferences/goals in regard to any game campaign. But I think the summary of the eight player styles from the WotC survey in 1999 does a better job of that. (Though that still reads like a joke to me. Tying the player styles to a two value axis that creates a near exact duplicate of the D&D alignment chart?)

    Understanding that different players want different things out of a game is pretty important. GNS does a pretty good job of providing a framework for starting that discussion.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: The Critical Role Effect

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    Does the model really lead to this conclusion, or was it the first casualty of the agenda?
    The model was intentionally created by the owner of the forge, the developer in question, to support his agenda.

    The conclusion of his theory is any RPG that mixes the goals of Gamist, Narrative, or Simulationist is "incoherent". In other words, either design your game have just one of these, or its poor design. And of course, who wants to aim to design a board game or computer simulation ...

    This ignores a couple of things:
    - They are vaguely players and DM preferences, but that doesn't mean they should be design goals.
    - there are a lot more than those three categories
    - it's not poor design to mix several design goals, play elements, or player preferences.

    The developer eventually turned out to be a toxic individual, so it's hardly surprising he'd be pushing a fairly toxic agenda.

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