The new general "Dominions 5" Thread

[tyckspoon]

Thats a false comparison though, when one part have to add Storm and Summon air power.
And it could be turned around. Since Storm -> Air Power -> Fog Warriors are slower than Communion master -> Fog Warrior.

If you're doing it via Communion, odds are you probably have a second caster handling the Storm part ('cause you probably have other casters you want using Storm Power or communioning up to toss out Thunder Strikes, if you're a heavy enough Air nation to have Fog Warriors as an expected part of your battle plans.) Or you had somebody make a Staff of Storms to save that turn and casting fatigue cost all together.

[lord_khaine]

It was already an extremely abstract example.
So i sought to keep it as direct as possible when comparing those two things.
Of course, in a lot of cases its not a problem if it takes a few turns before Fog Warriors are up.
Especially if your doing elemental summoning.

[deuterio12]

So I had done a couple mods before but never an actual new nation so decided to give it a try and here is the initial result EA Pewter City, Rock and Roll! pokemon mod with each big city being its ow nation (Pewter, Cerulean, Vermillion and Celadon Cities done so far).

Spoiler: Preview Pics

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Probably sprites need some rescaling and the stats/costs most certainly will need polishing, no heroes or national spells yet but hey it's still a working rooster of units and commanders!

Shiny pokemon are the spellcaster versions. Human trainers auto summon a pokemon at the start of each battle.

If anybody has suggestions/critiques I'm all ears.

EDIT: Added new version fixing some bugs, tweaking stuff around like giving a penalty to rituals and crafting for the pokemon casters, non-amphibious ones get cold vulnerability and cold blooded, increased costs for pokemon troops and changed paths around.

EDIT2: Added version 0.15

[deuterio12]

New Pewter City version, tweaked stats and costs all around plus added custom gods, heroes and national spells.

[Manticoran]

New Pewter City version, tweaked stats and costs all around plus added custom gods, heroes and national spells.

Wow, that's really awesome! Want help with balancing? It looks like a pretty solid concept.

[lord_khaine]

That looks awesome!
I really like the idea of having trainers auto summon pokemon at the start of battle.
That mechanic could likely be exploited further in some way?

[deuterio12]

Newer version, mostly just unlocking the ability to actually build forts underwater which I had completely forgot.

Wow, that's really awesome! Want help with balancing? It looks like a pretty solid concept.

Thanks!

And yes certainly could use help with balancing, in particular tweaking gold costs and whatnot.

That looks awesome!
I really like the idea of having trainers auto summon pokemon at the start of battle.

Yeah it just feels natural and makes sure a trainer has always at least one pokemon by their side.

That mechanic could likely be exploited further in some way?

I tried adding multiple autosummons to a single trainer but seems like only the last one works.

Although something that may work is a bunch of pokeball national items that auto summon fancier mons at the start of battle, still figuring out how to do items though.

[tyckspoon]

I tried adding multiple autosummons to a single trainer but seems like only the last one works.

Although something that may work is a bunch of pokeball national items that auto summon fancier mons at the start of battle, still figuring out how to do items though.

There are some Pretender chassis that have autosummons/retinues of multiple varieties of creature (Annunaki of Growth and Rebirth is one.) Looking at the existing data files for those might give some idea how to make scripting for multiple autosummons work.

I'll probably download it and poke at it a bit, can't give much opinion on possible balance until then.

[Manticoran]

There are some Pretender chassis that have autosummons/retinues of multiple varieties of creature (Annunaki of Growth and Rebirth is one.) Looking at the existing data files for those might give some idea how to make scripting for multiple autosummons work.

I'll probably download it and poke at it a bit, can't give much opinion on possible balance until then.

It's actually pretty straightforward. You just have the retinue command on multiple lines.

[deuterio12]

It seems to be a bit more complicated than that.

Basic retinue command is #batstartsum1 (ID), which summons 1 monster, but if I put that multiple times only last one applies.

However if I use #batstartsum2 or #batstartsum3 or #batstartsumX they seem to stack, thing is those summon 1/2/3/x monsters each instead of just 1 of each kind.

So seems like for multiple retinues each monster type needs to come in a different amount.

Or does anybody knows of a monster that has a retinue of different monsters but only 1 of each kind?

[tyckspoon]

Hmm. No, actually, all the examples that come to mind either have fixed numbers of a single type of retinue critter, or there's one Pretender chassis that has like 1d6 wolves 2d6 deer and 3d6 ..sheep or something. If the game thinks every battle start summon with the same numerical argument is the same command/overwrites the other ones that would explain that.. Might be able to hack around it by having them do an auto-cast spell that summons the appropriate critter instead, although then you're looking at adding a custom spell as well. (..mind, that might be something you want to do anyways, because then you'll also have a working in-battle summon spell your trainers can use.)

[deuterio12]

I actually had considered a line of "I choose you X!" for in-battle summons but couple problems with that:
-The pokemon themselves would also be able to use them, although there seems to be some ways to restrict that like #onlymnr and #reqtaskmaster (give taskmaster to all trainers?)
-Even if I add a limitation, it would mean trainer can call dozens of pokemon in a single battle when they're only supposed to carry 6 around tops. Or would people be fine with a bunch of trainers potentially flooding the field with pokemon?

Either way making such spells and making them autocast at battle start is something I hadn't considered and definitely sounds worth pursuing.

[tyckspoon]

Downloaded it, haven't played yet. First glance:

The nation has literally no use for Resources. Sloth 3/Order 3 seems like a no brainer in scales, because while there is no downside to tanking scales you're going to need Recruitment points quite badly (especially as an Early Age nation where lower province populations means Recruit points are harder to come by.) Maybe rebalance those costs a little, maybe make at least one attractive unit a heavier cost in Resources so this is less obviously the choice to make.

It's going to expand super easily - the combination of high prot and weapon resistances on literally all your troops means they're just going to roll straight through pretty much every indy province, even if you all you do is swarm Geodude - they're like Markata that don't suck >.> They're even not amazingly vulnerable to getting evocation'd off the field, because you gave them really good resist to the main blasting elements and only a weakness to Cold, which is usually easily mitigated by Protection (they will be very vulnerable to the battlefield cold enchant and Chill auras, tho.) I'd probably step down the resists, at least on the recruit anywheres/non-reclimit troops.

Onyx seem like they should have an area attack, either actually give them Trample or make Slam Area 1 (maybe make their Rock Throw hit an area?) They look like they're probably worth the money as is, it would just be fitting for their size and description.

You've been overgenerous with siege bonus; I can see where it's coming from in theme, but having your basic recruit troop be worth ~4 standard humans makes them way too good at cracking down walls, especially for as easy as they are to mass up.

Hikers being assassins is just hilarious to me. Having a Rhydon as their pet summon/assassination tool might be a bit too good, will need to play with them and see what the success rate is. Against non-mage enemies, at least, I expect they'll be near 100%, with the unusual distinction of being able to pretty reliable kill Heavy Cavalry and Barbarian commanders. (High prot, resistance to the most common weapon types, enough HP to soak up two or three hits most of the time, Berserk, and trample/multiple attacks? Yeah, not betting on poor indy Commanders.)

Most of the commanders seem reasonable at first glance.

Your custom Pretender chassis are too cheap - the rainbow ones have more base paths than any other rainbow chassis, which alone would make up for costing a few extra points, but you also have them with a potent auto-summoned bodyguard and domsummon for a few free extra troops. The Legendary Kabuto and Omastar in particular are super attractive for dormant or imprisoned scales-centric choices, because you really just want to spend as few points as possible on your Pretender's body for those. (Dormant Legendary Kabutops: Dom 7 Order 3 Sloth 3 neutral temp Growth 0 Luck 0 Magic 1, W10 Quickness bless. Or Imprisoned full scales: Dom 10 Order 3 Sloth 3 Hot 0 Growth 3 Luck 3 Magic 3, W1 E 5. Reinvig and Strength as blesses; nothing major, going troop focus here, but they'll be useful traits anyway.) ..Giant Boulder Badge is pretty much a standard immobile, nothing much to say there.

It does amuse me that such a heavy Earth nation doesn't really get much benefit from the classic Earth buffs. No normal armor on the troops means nothing for Legions of Steel to improve, and they all already have high natural protection so there isn't anywhere near the drastic improvement from Ironskin/Stoneskinning them. Probably looking more at throwing a bunch of Earthquakes (your dudes don't care, see again really high natural Prot) and using Earth Meld/Maws of the Earth to pin enemies down so your average-at-best attack skill GeoSwarms can smash them down. Hmm.. gem-heavy approach, but throwing down an Iron Bane and then a couple of Earthquakes or just chunking out a bunch of Blade Wind would probably wreck things pretty badly, and you've got easy access to high-end Earth..

Not very useful crosspaths to go with all that big Earth, although you do get pretty easy access to Rust Mist. I guess armor destruction is going to be their big combat trademark.

Edit: Going to try that imprisoned scales build first here and see if the Geodudes expand as easily as I think they will.

Edit: They're pretty good, although very slow. Mixing in an Onyx or a few Rhydon for big bruiser bodies is helpful. In fact a Hiker or two leading Geodudes actually make very efficient expansion groups - the Geodudes do quite well at dealing with the front line chaff, and the Rhydons are.. well, they're berserking trampling superfast heavy cavalry.

Need to down-size the flag emblem a bit, that badge is huge and makes it hard to see anything else on the province.

Edit Edit Edit: You have no Fort PD type assigned. This is.. problematic - the Forts are currently defended only by a Geodude commander.
EEEDit: And they can't build underwater forts, although I won't guarantee I got the most updated file - this is something you said you already fixed... oh. Yeah, I was using the pc13 file.

[deuterio12]

Downloaded it, haven't played yet. First glance:

The nation has literally no use for Resources. Sloth 3/Order 3 seems like a no brainer in scales, because while there is no downside to tanking scales you're going to need Recruitment points quite badly (especially as an Early Age nation where lower province populations means Recruit points are harder to come by.) Maybe rebalance those costs a little, maybe make at least one attractive unit a heavier cost in Resources so this is less obviously the choice to make.

Several nations have low/no armor units and love sloth.

If anything, recruitment points were added in Dominions 5 precisely as a balancing point for that. Resources are explicitly meant to be manufactred gear, so "naked" units should be balanced by high recruitment points costs.

Plus in dominions 5 Sloth scales also greatly affect gold (more than Order now) so it's not a completely painless hit.

It's going to expand super easily - the combination of high prot and weapon resistances on literally all your troops means they're just going to roll straight through pretty much every indy province, even if you all you do is swarm Geodude - they're like Markata that don't suck >.> They're even not amazingly vulnerable to getting evocation'd off the field, because you gave them really good resist to the main blasting elements and only a weakness to Cold, which is usually easily mitigated by Protection (they will be very vulnerable to the battlefield cold enchant and Chill auras, tho.) I'd probably step down the resists, at least on the recruit anywheres/non-reclimit troops.

Note that unlike most stony beings in dominion, the rock pokemon have no resistance to poison at all so that's another weakness of theirs that can be exploited, plus only average morale and MR for troops that cost above average so fear effects will make a dent too (they'll also rout relatively faster once something can hurt them).

Onyx seem like they should have an area attack, either actually give them Trample or make Slam Area 1 (maybe make their Rock Throw hit an area?) They look like they're probably worth the money as is, it would just be fitting for their size and description.

Snake-like beings usually don't have trample so made Slam #aoe 1. I would rather keep the moves standardized so made a new Rockslide attack with area 1.

You've been overgenerous with siege bonus; I can see where it's coming from in theme, but having your basic recruit troop be worth ~4 standard humans makes them way too good at cracking down walls, especially for as easy as they are to mass up.

Fair enough, reduced siege bonus accross the board.

Hikers being assassins is just hilarious to me. Having a Rhydon as their pet summon/assassination tool might be a bit too good, will need to play with them and see what the success rate is. Against non-mage enemies, at least, I expect they'll be near 100%, with the unusual distinction of being able to pretty reliable kill Heavy Cavalry and Barbarian commanders. (High prot, resistance to the most common weapon types, enough HP to soak up two or three hits most of the time, Berserk, and trample/multiple attacks? Yeah, not betting on poor indy Commanders.)

Will the fabled assassin expansion finally become viable?

Most of the commanders seem reasonable at first glance.

Your custom Pretender chassis are too cheap - the rainbow ones have more base paths than any other rainbow chassis, which alone would make up for costing a few extra points, but you also have them with a potent auto-summoned bodyguard and domsummon for a few free extra troops. The Legendary Kabuto and Omastar in particular are super attractive for dormant or imprisoned scales-centric choices, because you really just want to spend as few points as possible on your Pretender's body for those. (Dormant Legendary Kabutops: Dom 7 Order 3 Sloth 3 neutral temp Growth 0 Luck 0 Magic 1, W10 Quickness bless. Or Imprisoned full scales: Dom 10 Order 3 Sloth 3 Hot 0 Growth 3 Luck 3 Magic 3, W1 E 5. Reinvig and Strength as blesses; nothing major, going troop focus here, but they'll be useful traits anyway.) ..Giant Boulder Badge is pretty much a standard immobile, nothing much to say there.

Will reduce the discount to 20 points then.

It does amuse me that such a heavy Earth nation doesn't really get much benefit from the classic Earth buffs. No normal armor on the troops means nothing for Legions of Steel to improve, and they all already have high natural protection so there isn't anywhere near the drastic improvement from Ironskin/Stoneskinning them.

That's like complaining that Abyssia has no use for all the fire protection spells in fire or that Niefelheim isn't interested in cold protection spells from water or that Caelum has little use for mass flight. It just means the mages don't need to spend as much time buffing their troops! .

Probably looking more at throwing a bunch of Earthquakes (your dudes don't care, see again really high natural Prot) and using Earth Meld/Maws of the Earth to pin enemies down so your average-at-best attack skill GeoSwarms can smash them down. Hmm.. gem-heavy approach, but throwing down an Iron Bane and then a couple of Earthquakes or just chunking out a bunch of Blade Wind would probably wreck things pretty badly, and you've got easy access to high-end Earth..

Mind you the pokemon champion leaders can't lead troops besides the Omastar Champion that you can only get underwater, so the human trainers still need to protect themselves against earthquakes.

Not very useful crosspaths to go with all that big Earth, although you do get pretty easy access to Rust Mist. I guess armor destruction is going to be their big combat trademark.


Edit: Going to try that imprisoned scales build first here and see if the Geodudes expand as easily as I think they will.

Edit: They're pretty good, although very slow. Mixing in an Onyx or a few Rhydon for big bruiser bodies is helpful. In fact a Hiker or two leading Geodudes actually make very efficient expansion groups - the Geodudes do quite well at dealing with the front line chaff, and the Rhydons are.. well, they're berserking trampling superfast heavy cavalry.

Well they're supposed to be rock hard rhynos. Make them slower perhaps? More expensive? Both?

Need to down-size the flag emblem a bit, that badge is huge and makes it hard to see anything else on the province.

Done.

Edit Edit Edit: You have no Fort PD type assigned. This is.. problematic - the Forts are currently defended only by a Geodude commander.
EEEDit: And they can't build underwater forts, although I won't guarantee I got the most updated file - this is something you said you already fixed... oh. Yeah, I was using the pc13 file.

Yeah UW fort was only fixed for version 0.14, and the PD should've been properly coded in that version too. Thanks for the playtest!

[lord_khaine]

Will the fabled assassin expansion finally become viable?

I got that working moderatly well for Patalla.
I were testing a regeneration/invulnerability bless.

And it turns out that Nagini can indeed wreck just about every indie commander you encounter.
Even Heavy Cavalry a lot of the time.

[deuterio12]

Yeah, it's not like dominions has lack of uber units.

Version 0.15 of Pewter City out, tweaks as in the last post, battle spells for summoning pokemon, all trainers are now taskmasters (not that you can recruit slaves, but the battle spells only work for taskmasters), also PD should be properly fixed now.

[tyckspoon]

Several nations have low/no armor units and love sloth.

If anything, recruitment points were added in Dominions 5 precisely as a balancing point for that. Resources are explicitly meant to be manufactred gear, so "naked" units should be balanced by high recruitment points costs.

Plus in dominions 5 Sloth scales also greatly affect gold (more than Order now) so it's not a completely painless hit.

Order/Turmoil and Sloth/Productivity actually have the same impact on base income; it's trading Resources for Recruitment points (and reduced event chances. If you're going Order 3 by default I suppose I could probably justify Misfortune 1 in here as well, will take a look at that if trying an Awake Pretender..)

Oh, speaking of scales, with all the cold-blooded creatures a mild preference for Heat might be suitable?

Will the fabled assassin expansion finally become viable?

Works pretty well, just not likely to be your only means of expansion. When I play assassin nations I'll usually have an assassin expansion group going, because it lets you build another way of expanding that uses mostly different resources to hiring troop squads.

Well they're supposed to be rock hard rhynos. Make them slower perhaps? More expensive? Both?

Reduced combat speed, I think, at least, so they aren't Trampling over 2 squares/round and take a little more time to get to the enemy. The default man-on-horse heavy cavalry speed is 20, maybe put the Rhyhorns to like 18? (Twenty would be ok, just thinking about the interaction with Trample.)


Edit: Legendary Onyx awake expander. Earth 6, Hard Skin bless. Prot 36 in combat (Earth magic bonus effect, +5 Hard Skin, +1 Berserking.) Could use Recuperation or Regen, but adding that many extra paths to him would be too expensive.. fortunately I have Healer priests.

Edit 2: A squad of Hikers just Rhyhorn-ambushed their way through a Throne; Nature-Death-Air defenders, including two mages that tried to defend themselves with Swarm and Raise Skeletons. Rhyhorn don't care, only damage was an affliction on one of the Hikers because I forgot to set them to Hold so they were just walking up behind the Rhyhorn. Fight 400-odd enemies including manikins and phantasms? nah bro, assassinate. Hikers probably too cheap for what they do - you have them priced more like basic scouts. Assassination capacity should make them more expensive, even if the particular assassination wasn't super effective. Only real threat I can see currently is if they try to ambush something like a strong Astral or Air mage and the Hiker winds up eating a Mind Burn or Lightning Bolt, or you run into a really heavy thug/SuperCombatant chassis.. but those are mostly immune to anything other than really specialized, geared mage assassinations anyway.

Edit 3: Using Rhyhorns in combat parties this time around, just had a few survive through/kill enough to evolve. You.. probably should slow down Rhydons. Combat Speed 32 is just kind of ludicrous, they can cover the field nearly as fast as flyers.

[Manticoran]

Edit 3: Using Rhyhorns in combat parties this time around, just had a few survive through/kill enough to evolve. You.. probably should slow down Rhydons. Combat Speed 32 is just kind of ludicrous, they can cover the field nearly as fast as flyers.

I'd recommend something like 10-12 personally. Using riding the Rhyhorn in X/Y as an example, it was not any faster than normal people, perhaps slower.

[deuterio12]

Order/Turmoil and Sloth/Productivity actually have the same impact on base income; it's trading Resources for Recruitment points (and reduced event chances. If you're going Order 3 by default I suppose I could probably justify Misfortune 1 in here as well, will take a look at that if trying an Awake Pretender..)

Oh, speaking of scales, with all the cold-blooded creatures a mild preference for Heat might be suitable?

Well there is already a precedence in EA/MA Agartha that has a lot of cold-blooded stuff but standard neutral scales and Pewter City doesn't seem any particularly hot/cold climate.

In the other hand making them default heat 1 or 2 would mean less dupability

Will think about it.

Reduced combat speed, I think, at least, so they aren't Trampling over 2 squares/round and take a little more time to get to the enemy. The default man-on-horse heavy cavalry speed is 20, maybe put the Rhyhorns to like 18? (Twenty would be ok, just thinking about the interaction with Trample.)

I'll gow with 19 for now then.

Edit: Legendary Onyx awake expander. Earth 6, Hard Skin bless. Prot 36 in combat (Earth magic bonus effect, +5 Hard Skin, +1 Berserking.) Could use Recuperation or Regen, but adding that many extra paths to him would be too expensive.. fortunately I have Healer priests.

So an Earth snake?
-L. Onyx has a bit better protection but worst HP.
-L. Onyx has stealth but no amphibious (which hurts more due to being unable to cross rivers which will never freeze if you take heat scales).
-L. Onyx has electricity and fire resistance but no poison resistance plus cold vulnerability.
-Earth Snake has innate recuperation while L. Onyx would need to spend extra gold buying a nurse and eiher have her tag along (and risk being taken out) or go back to base when they get an affliction.
-Berseker is a two-edged sword since it does make the L.Onyx tougher but also unable to retreat if it does run into something that can hurt it plus makes it harder to be a spellcaster late game.

Edit 2: A squad of Hikers just Rhyhorn-ambushed their way through a Throne; Nature-Death-Air defenders, including two mages that tried to defend themselves with Swarm and Raise Skeletons. Rhyhorn don't care, only damage was an affliction on one of the Hikers because I forgot to set them to Hold so they were just walking up behind the Rhyhorn. Fight 400-odd enemies including manikins and phantasms? nah bro, assassinate. Hikers probably too cheap for what they do - you have them priced more like basic scouts. Assassination capacity should make them more expensive, even if the particular assassination wasn't super effective. Only real threat I can see currently is if they try to ambush something like a strong Astral or Air mage and the Hiker winds up eating a Mind Burn or Lightning Bolt, or you run into a really heavy thug/SuperCombatant chassis.. but those are mostly immune to anything other than really specialized, geared mage assassinations anyway.

Hmm, I'm using autocalc but I guess the game really understimates the auto summon ability. So how much gold would be appropriate? 100? 150?

Edit 3: Using Rhyhorns in combat parties this time around, just had a few survive through/kill enough to evolve. You.. probably should slow down Rhydons. Combat Speed 32 is just kind of ludicrous, they can cover the field nearly as fast as flyers.

Will lower to 20.

I'd recommend something like 10-12 personally. Using riding the Rhyhorn in X/Y as an example, it was not any faster than normal people, perhaps slower.

I see that just as a game limitation. In particular since in the anime, they're seen to be relatively fast, there was even at least one episode dedicated to rhyhorn racing (sorry for not finding a better clip, but still shows rhyhorns can go fast, just not as easy to control, in particular by inexperienced kids).

Hmmmm, Rhyhorn knights as heavy resource unit?

Also laying down the basics for Cerulean city, damn there's a lot of water pokemon.

Spoiler

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-Coastal nation.
-Water magic plus air (ice=water+air in dominions usually), some astral (psychic), nature (poison).
-Water pokemon get resistance to cold and fire, vulnerability to shock.
-Will use the cave crab as guideline for krabby/kingler stats and kappa for squirtle/wartotle/blastoise stats.
-Even fish stuff like goldeen are amphibious but get a super slow land form.
-Psyducks and slowpokes and evolutions get mind blasting.
-Champions/legendaries tentacruel (water/nature), Starmie (water/astral), Blastoise (solid water), Gyarados (water/air)

Human Commanders (everybody gets sailing):
-Swimmer man (coast)
-Swimmer woman (coast)
-Sailor (non-mage great commander, coast)
-Fisherman (non-mage commander, inland)
-maid scout assassin (inland) because Misty had an army of maids in the adventures manga which always amused me.
-plus the jr and cooltrainers with different paths and recolored.

[tyckspoon]

So an Earth snake?
-L. Onyx has a bit better protection but worst HP.
-L. Onyx has stealth but no amphibious (which hurts more due to being unable to cross rivers which will never freeze if you take heat scales).
-L. Onyx has electricity and fire resistance but no poison resistance plus cold vulnerability.
-Earth Snake has innate recuperation while L. Onyx would need to spend extra gold buying a nurse and eiher have her tag along (and risk being taken out) or go back to base when they get an affliction.
-Berseker is a two-edged sword since it does make the L.Onyx tougher but also unable to retreat if it does run into something that can hurt it plus makes it harder to be a spellcaster late game.

Basically, yeah. Didn't mean to imply it was overpowered - I think it's about right for an expander monster. And honestly that much Protection combined with high base HP and Dominion bonus means it is pretty much never going to suffer a big enough hit to really risk getting afflicted anyways (I did buy it another Onyx as a buddy as part of my first turn recruitment to help spread out enemies a bit and make certain it couldn't get swarmed too bad.) Fear and the AoE Slam attack are other advantages it has on Erf Snek, because it means it's a lot more capable of dealing with being outnumbered and won't get chipped to death anywhere near as easily as Earth Snake while the Snake slowly chews through things one body at a time.

Hmm, I'm using autocalc but I guess the game really understimates the auto summon ability. So how much gold would be appropriate? 100? 150?

They're basically delivery mechanisms for Rhyhorn-assassins, so.. make a stealthy Assassin Rhyhorn commander, let the game autocalc that, and use that for a basis? As is they're same cost as the Rhyhorn themselves, which is definitely too cheap - it's kind of like buying a Rhyhorn, only it comes with some modest command ability and the power to make assassination attacks.

Also laying down the basics for Cerulean city, damn there's a lot of water pokemon.

Don't forget to keep track of your used unit/spell ID numbers - if you want your PokeNations to play nice with each other you'll need to make sure you don't duplicate ID tags.

Things Hikers have so far failed to kill: An independent province with Shades, whose commander was ethereal, had an armor-negating weapon, and magic, plus a dark fiend bodyguard. A fire mage who happened to have a couple of gems, which let him put out a lesser fire elemental before the Rhyhorn got to him - too big to trample and Rhyhorn doesn't have a way to hit Ethereal. (Would have won this, eventually, but the second fire elemental plus point-blank casting support from the mage chipped through the fire resistance. The second Hiker got him easily after I'd burnt his gems.) Abyssia's Warmaster prophet.

[deuterio12]

Basically, yeah. Didn't mean to imply it was overpowered - I think it's about right for an expander monster. And honestly that much Protection combined with high base HP and Dominion bonus means it is pretty much never going to suffer a big enough hit to really risk getting afflicted anyways (I did buy it another Onyx as a buddy as part of my first turn recruitment to help spread out enemies a bit and make certain it couldn't get swarmed too bad.) Fear and the AoE Slam attack are other advantages it has on Erf Snek, because it means it's a lot more capable of dealing with being outnumbered and won't get chipped to death anywhere near as easily as Earth Snake while the Snake slowly chews through things one body at a time.

Earth Snake has fear too, that's indeed pretty good for expanding even if biting one thing at a time. And the earth snake's bite has actually a pretty good attack bonus so it's reliably hitting even if it's just 1 attack/round. plus super poison so it can chew other big monsters if push comes to shove.

They're basically delivery mechanisms for Rhyhorn-assassins, so.. make a stealthy Assassin Rhyhorn commander, let the game autocalc that, and use that for a basis? As is they're same cost as the Rhyhorn themselves, which is definitely too cheap - it's kind of like buying a Rhyhorn, only it comes with some modest command ability and the power to make assassination attacks.

Tried that out, and game calculated that a berseker trampling assassin is 60 gold, not too shabby. Tacking that on top of the hiker base cost is 110 gold which sounds fairer.

Don't forget to keep track of your used unit/spell ID numbers - if you want your PokeNations to play nice with each other you'll need to make sure you don't duplicate ID tags.

Of course, already doing so, but thanks for the reminder anyway.

Things Hikers have so far failed to kill: An independent province with Shades, whose commander was ethereal, had an armor-negating weapon, and magic, plus a dark fiend bodyguard. A fire mage who happened to have a couple of gems, which let him put out a lesser fire elemental before the Rhyhorn got to him - too big to trample and Rhyhorn doesn't have a way to hit Ethereal. (Would have won this, eventually, but the second fire elemental plus point-blank casting support from the mage chipped through the fire resistance. The second Hiker got him easily after I'd burnt his gems.) Abyssia's Warmaster prophet.

Not surprised that fire works if you just apply enough of it.

Hmm, so seems like big targets aren't as vulnerable. Haven't you run into any titans guarding thrones per chance? Giant nations? How about other size 3 commanders?

Spoiler: Also something I could not resist doing

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Still seems not that worth it over basic rhyhorns. Make them sacred? Cap only then?Some other nifty ability?

Faster movement representing the rider spuring them in battle or plain superior training/bonding?

Maybe remove their resistances/vulnerabilities both ways or just the cold vulnerability so Pewter City has one non-sacred unit to invade cold places?

Suggestions?

[tyckspoon]

Hmm, so seems like big targets aren't as vulnerable. Haven't you run into any titans guarding thrones per chance? Giant nations? How about other size 3 commanders?

I just finished wrecking a Hinnom; they go through the mages pretty easily, and I think they even bagged a Baal (although that one might have just been rushed down by five or so rockrhinos in a field battle instead.) Melqarts give no craps, which is probably predictable, and I think Avvite Commanders would be something of a tossup - the key factor, I think, is actually Defense skill (or some similar protective ability to make attacks miss - I already mentioned a problem trying to cut through Ethereal, and things with Awe would also be a pretty big roadbump.) If they can't trample than the Rhyhorn is relying on standard attacks, and they have only average attack skill to do it with, so a decent thug or supercombatant chassis can dodge them long enough to have a shot at winning. I would predict similar results for other nations - mages with little to no Prot or Defense can get beat down by two high-strength attacks, while the actual fighters can at least make it a fight. The Elfpony nations probably just don't even care - cavalry size makes them untrampleable, and between glamour and the Defense bonus for being mounted they'd have to be very unlucky to lose to a Rhyhorn. It might take them quite a few rounds to actually bring one down, but I think they'd get there.

Spoiler: Also something I could not resist doing

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Still seems not that worth it over basic rhyhorns. Make them sacred? Cap only then?Some other nifty ability?

Faster movement representing the rider spuring them in battle or plain superior training/bonding?

Maybe remove their resistances/vulnerabilities both ways or just the cold vulnerability so Pewter City has one non-sacred unit to invade cold places?

Suggestions?

Well, there's some benefit just in being a relatively normal troop type that can be hit with the standard Earth buffs, but maybe give them an elite level Attack skill (13 or 14?) That would give them a bit of a niche in countering the kinds of troops Rhyhorns and Geodudes can't really hit effectively thanks to their lower Attack rating. PokeKnights tilting at giants.

[lord_khaine]

Earth Snake has fear too, that's indeed pretty good for expanding even if biting one thing at a time. And the earth snake's bite has actually a pretty good attack bonus so it's reliably hitting even if it's just 1 attack/round. plus super poison so it can chew other big monsters if push comes to shove.

I would say that the Earth Serpent is not just pretty good.
Its extremely good at chewing though just about anything that get in its way.
I tested it extentively as preperation for my last game. With Earth 4-6 it crushes just about anything besides cavemen provinces.
Even outside of its dominion.

Tried that out, and game calculated that a berseker trampling assassin is 60 gold, not too shabby. Tacking that on top of the hiker base cost is 110 gold which sounds fairer.

It still sounds a little cheap for whats basically a scout with a bottle of living water as far as i can hear?
In part i guess, because 2 of them already forms a slow but effective expansion force on their own.

Or well, if they cost 2 recruitment points. Then 2 Jomon Ninja might almost measure up to the value you get from them.

[Thrantar]

The lack of poison resistance may not be as large of a drawback as expected.
Many sources of poison damage trigger on damage, so once you start getting to the 15+ prot area, lots of poisoned weapons fail to get the required scratch off.
Most poison spells will still work fine, as will poison auras.
Not sure about the poison barbs on some Atlantean and Xilbalban stuff.

Be careful with autocalc.
Where you set the chassis cost matters.

[lord_khaine]

I believe the poison barbs are AN but reduced by reach.
At least i have seen mentioned as a counter to different sorts of cavalry due to the 0 reach hoof attacks.

[deuterio12]

New version of pokemon mod, now with Cerulean city added!

Spoiler: Preview Pic

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That was quite a bit of work, but hopefully the other nations should be easier since they have less pokemon (water's like 1/5 of all pokemon even in the first game) and also I get to use custom effects again.

I just finished wrecking a Hinnom; they go through the mages pretty easily, and I think they even bagged a Baal (although that one might have just been rushed down by five or so rockrhinos in a field battle instead.) Melqarts give no craps, which is probably predictable, and I think Avvite Commanders would be something of a tossup - the key factor, I think, is actually Defense skill (or some similar protective ability to make attacks miss - I already mentioned a problem trying to cut through Ethereal, and things with Awe would also be a pretty big roadbump.) If they can't trample than the Rhyhorn is relying on standard attacks, and they have only average attack skill to do it with, so a decent thug or supercombatant chassis can dodge them long enough to have a shot at winning. I would predict similar results for other nations - mages with little to no Prot or Defense can get beat down by two high-strength attacks, while the actual fighters can at least make it a fight. The Elfpony nations probably just don't even care - cavalry size makes them untrampleable, and between glamour and the Defense bonus for being mounted they'd have to be very unlucky to lose to a Rhyhorn. It might take them quite a few rounds to actually bring one down, but I think they'd get there.

That sounds good to me, they're good but can't deal with everything.

So gave them a big bump in the gold price tag.

Well, there's some benefit just in being a relatively normal troop type that can be hit with the standard Earth buffs, but maybe give them an elite level Attack skill (13 or 14?) That would give them a bit of a niche in countering the kinds of troops Rhyhorns and Geodudes can't really hit effectively thanks to their lower Attack rating. PokeKnights tilting at giants.

Good idea in extra attack skill, done.

I would say that the Earth Serpent is not just pretty good.
Its extremely good at chewing though just about anything that get in its way.
I tested it extentively as preperation for my last game. With Earth 4-6 it crushes just about anything besides cavemen provinces.
Even outside of its dominion.

It used to be better, like when it costed only 130 points. But now it's basically eating up all your scales.

It still sounds a little cheap for whats basically a scout with a bottle of living water as far as i can hear?
In part i guess, because 2 of them already forms a slow but effective expansion force on their own.

Or well, if they cost 2 recruitment points. Then 2 Jomon Ninja might almost measure up to the value you get from them.

A bottle of living water would be plain stronger, bigger size and hits harder.
And the thing with expansion is that slow is not that effective. Speed is key in cleaning indies, and no matter how good an assassin is they'll always need two turns to take a province and that's with needing an extra commander to actually bump the province, while somebody expanding with plain good troops will literally expand twice as fast. Plus an expansion party of troops will remain relevant for an actual war against another player, while assassins can't assassinate PD and players can take measures to counter them.

So for now just increased the gold cost, because if they start costing as much recruitment points as a mage then it's really hard to argue it's worth it to significantly slow down inboth your expansion and your research/mage numbers just for a fancy assassin.

The lack of poison resistance may not be as large of a drawback as expected.
Many sources of poison damage trigger on damage, so once you start getting to the 15+ prot area, lots of poisoned weapons fail to get the required scratch off.
Most poison spells will still work fine, as will poison auras.
Not sure about the poison barbs on some Atlantean and Xilbalban stuff.

As lord khaine pointed out, poison barbs only care about weapon reach and thus are kinda of a surprise counter against elite infantry who'll kill themselves with their hooves regardless of their armor and defense skill.

Be careful with autocalc.
Where you set the chassis cost matters.

Wait, what? Could you explain that in more detail please?

[lord_khaine]

It used to be better, like when it costed only 130 points. But now it's basically eating up all your scales.

Ahh.. its not entirely that bad.
You can still get E4, D4, and +3 scales.
That will still crush just about anything else than barbarians and large numbers of heavy cavalry.

A bottle of living water would be plain stronger, bigger size and hits harder.
And the thing with expansion is that slow is not that effective. Speed is key in cleaning indies, and no matter how good an assassin is they'll always need two turns to take a province and that's with needing an extra commander to actually bump the province, while somebody expanding with plain good troops will literally expand twice as fast. Plus an expansion party of troops will remain relevant for an actual war against another player, while assassins can't assassinate PD and players can take measures to counter them.

But the moment you can reliably kill a mounted commander, how much of the rest would then be overkill?
Its for that matter not that slow again. Yes it takes a little longer than the regular army. But you can for a start use a scout to bump the province.
And the trick is to send a regular army the opposite way.

Also, its perfect if they begin wasting time and efford on guarding all their mages and commanders.
That takes both time and resources.

[deuterio12]

But the moment you can reliably kill a mounted commander, how much of the rest would then be overkill?
Its for that matter not that slow again. Yes it takes a little longer than the regular army. But you can for a start use a scout to bump the province.
And the trick is to send a regular army the opposite way.

Scouts cost precious commander points from your forts until you luck out in an indie scout province (and the pokemon nations don't have cheap normal scouts for recruitment, they start at hiker/maid).

And it's still half as slow as a solid expansion party because the assassin always needs to spend one turn moving then one turn doing the actual assassination. And if the province has more than one commander (sometimes they may have half a dozen), then that can reall be a bump.

Also, its perfect if they begin wasting time and efford on guarding all their mages and commanders.
That takes both time and resources.

Minimal time and resources that can then be changed somewhere else if you play smart. Like in our first game here Abyssia tried to rely on assassins to cover their forts, but I was one step ahead and had 5 heavy infantry attached to every each of my commanders to stop that ahead of time. That was just +50 gold and zero commander recruitment investment per field commander, and the troops were still helping break down the fort's walls and could be assigned to other duties. That's for field commanders moving out mind you, forts can and should have a general patrol force instead to rout out basic enemy scouts if nothing else. Information is power, and negating information to your opponent is taking their power.

Another nice trick is when I'm playing a non-blood nation and get blood slaves from some event anyway, assign them to important mages since they'll form a literal meat wall during any assassination attempts (not gonna try trade them with an actual blood nation unless I'm completely desperate, that's just throwing fuel to the fire). And if playing an actual blood nation my field mages having slave "bodyguards" is just the default state.

Indies don't patrol, indies don't assign bodyguard troops, so assassins indeed look quite a lot more effective against them, but beating indies is kinda the lowest bar in dominions, the most basics of basics.

Anyway when I get some more of the pokemon cities done I'll probably try to start an actual game with them to see how they perform in pvp, unless somebody feels like trying just Pewter City and Cerulean City against the vanilla EA nations.

[lord_khaine]

Scouts cost precious commander points from your forts until you luck out in an indie scout province (and the pokemon nations don't have cheap normal scouts for recruitment, they start at hiker/maid).

And it's still half as slow as a solid expansion party because the assassin always needs to spend one turn moving then one turn doing the actual assassination. And if the province has more than one commander (sometimes they may have half a dozen), then that can reall be a bump.

Any leader recruited out of a fort can be used. You just need 1 per assasin team.

For that matter. Its some shockingly high expectations you have to assasins.
I do understand if they disapoint you when you want them to be able to keep up with an army.
But they are often just 1/4 to 1/5 the gold cost of an army that can clear reliably without attrition.
So of course they also work in more or less the same speed.

Minimal time and resources that can then be changed somewhere else if you play smart. Like in our first game here Abyssia tried to rely on assassins to cover their forts, but I was one step ahead and had 5 heavy infantry attached to every each of my commanders to stop that ahead of time. That was just +50 gold and zero commander recruitment investment per field commander, and the troops were still helping break down the fort's walls and could be assigned to other duties. That's for field commanders moving out mind you, forts can and should have a general patrol force instead to rout out basic enemy scouts if nothing else. Information is power, and negating information to your opponent is taking their power.

Its not what i call minimal if your paying a 50 gold tax and x resource tax per commander.
That is troops who suddenly dont contribute to the actual army fighting.

[Aeson]

Why is it that none of the Water pokemon - including those set to be recruited from underwater forts only - for Cerulean City are amphibious/aquatic?