Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

[Lacuna Caster]

Of course, the first issue with following Lacuna's plan here is that the paladins will first need to recruit a dwarven construction crew to dig through the rubble to find the escape tunnel...

Eugene/the BoPLaG saw Redcloak escape through an underground tunnel to begin with, and I've suggested, like, six different ways that the Guard could track down Xykon independently. (Or, you know, just try consulting the Oracle.)

Puns not withstanding, Xykon would not be defenseless. He would have less defenses sure. The paladins do not know whether he has "a fortress-tomb-thingie" of doom, or just a 16th level Cleric and backup fortress. And an army...

There are reasonable discussions to be had about how the Azurite forces could have been optimally deployed here, sure. Perhaps the primary emphasis should be on reconnaissance and divination so you can ensure you have an accurate idea of where Xykon is and what he's doing before you commit to fighting any battles. After all, there's nothing to stop you beaming in more forces in later on with teleport/wind-walk, as and when required.

With that said, I consider it totally plausible that a concerted effort by the Guard might have wiped out Xykon & RC. Organising the hobgoblins into a real army took weeks of work, and no amount of mooks will give you protection from Scry and Die tactics, so given Miko was at least an even match for Redcloak, I'm guessing that Miko + O-Chul + Hinjo + the High Priest + Wizard Dude + whatever members of the OOTS are reliable would give a non-regenerated Xykon a run for his money. But that's the sort of thing you can judge after you find the sonovabitch.

Lien and O-Chul are later sent to reconnoiter Team Evil's position without any expectation that such an effort would be intrinsically suicidal or pointless- it doesn't make sense that the Guard at full strength would have a lower chance of success, and even if all that expedition accomplished was to establish that Xykon had a 14th-level cleric and hobgoblin army at his disposal, that's still puts Azure City in a much better position to defend itself than not knowing what Xykon is up to at all.

My main point is that Shojo's actual strategy largely consisted of twiddling his thumbs for weeks on end while he sent out one criminally-underinformed paladin, on foot, to forcibly retrieve six people for the ostensible purpose of gathering evidence of a threat to the Gates, when he already had a source of that evidence floating right there in his throne room.

Herp derp.

[Wizard_Lizard]

pro tip: Excessive thumb twiddling does NOT delay armaggedon

[Keltest]

Eugene/the BoPLaG saw Redcloak escape through an underground tunnel to begin with, and I've suggested, like, six different ways that the Guard could track down Xykon independently. (Or, you know, just try consulting the Oracle.)


There are reasonable discussions to be had about how the Azurite forces could have been optimally deployed here, sure. Perhaps the primary emphasis should be on reconnaissance and divination so you can ensure you have an accurate idea of where Xykon is and what he's doing before you commit to fighting any battles. After all, there's nothing to stop you beaming in more forces in later on with teleport/wind-walk, as and when required.

With that said, I consider it totally plausible that a concerted effort by the Guard might have wiped out Xykon & RC. Organising the hobgoblins into a real army took weeks of work, and no amount of mooks will give you protection from Scry and Die tactics, so given Miko was at least an even match for Redcloak, I'm guessing that Miko + O-Chul + Hinjo + the High Priest + Wizard Dude + whatever members of the OOTS are reliable would give a non-regenerated Xykon a run for his money. But that's the sort of thing you can judge after you find the sonovabitch.

Lien and O-Chul are later sent to reconnoiter Team Evil's position without any expectation that such an effort would be intrinsically suicidal or pointless- it doesn't make sense that the Guard at full strength would have a lower chance of success, and even if all that expedition accomplished was to establish that Xykon had a 14th-level cleric and hobgoblin army at his disposal, that's still puts Azure City in a much better position to defend itself than not knowing what Xykon is up to at all.

My main point is that Shojo's actual strategy largely consisted of twiddling his thumbs for weeks on end while he sent out one criminally-underinformed paladin, on foot, to forcibly retrieve six people for the ostensible purpose of gathering evidence of a threat to the Gates, when he already had a source of that evidence floating right there in his throne room.

Herp derp.

For the umpteenth time, Shojo does not care about Xykon and Redcloak. He cares about the gates. He has no idea there is a legitimate conspiracy going around targeting the gates, specifically, or that theyre moving on his right when he's taking steps to figure out dangers to the gates. All he knows, and what he is mainly concerned about, is that the defenses of at least two gates fell fairly recently, and he is concerned that the defenses of other gates may also be in danger of falling.

If this confuses you, its not because its contradictory, its because you have wildly misunderstood Shojo's character and motivations.

[Lacuna Caster]

Keltest is on my ignore list, but I'm guessing he's saying something about Shojo not caring about Xykon, so I'll just repeat that while Shojo has plenty of good reasons to care about Xykon, Eugene pretty definitively cares about nothing else.

I think Eugene could easily be classed with Miko as far as "had been pushing the boundaries of Lawful Good for years", just in a different way.

Whereas Miko had been following her alignment to maintain her Paladin class requirements so she could slay evildoers...

To me, it's clear the narrative wanted to establish her as "kind of a jerk good". Some kind of flawed good. I am coming around to the idea that the ways in which her goodness are flawed are not, perhaps, as consistent as they could have been. What's consistent is her perceived superiority, but the ways in which it manifests change.

There is no coherent standard by which early-strip Miko qualifies as less Lawful Good than even the more upstanding members of the Order of the Stick. You can maybe argue that she was skirting the borders of the paladin code, but arguing that she was particularly skirting her alignment requires some pretty glaring double-standards with respect to the main cast.

I joined the comic during the hiatus after Roy's death, so I never understood the interest in Miko, but I think I get it a bit better now. She shows elements that in another narrative, for example, could have made her a member of the party, as some sort of dark but good inverse to the lead...

Again, I don't see how early-strip Miko was functionally any 'darker' than the Order themselves. She never suggests ambushing enemies unawares and slitting their throats in their sleep, for example.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Keltest is on my ignore list, but I'm guessing he's saying something about Shojo not caring about Xykon, so I'll just repeat that while Shojo has plenty of good reasons to care about Xykon, Eugene pretty definitively cares about nothing else.



There is no coherent standard by which early-strip Miko qualifies as less Lawful Good than even the more upstanding members of the Order of the Stick. You can maybe argue that she was skirting the borders of the paladin code, but arguing that she was particularly skirting her alignment requires some pretty glaring double-standards with respect to the main cast.


Again, I don't see how early-strip Miko was functionally any 'darker' than the Order themselves. She never suggests ambushing enemies unawares and slitting their throats in their sleep, for example.

Yeah but that's just Belkar… …and Haley… and… oh I see…

[Keltest]

Keltest is on my ignore list, but I'm guessing he's saying something about Shojo not caring about Xykon, so I'll just repeat that while Shojo has plenty of good reasons to care about Xykon, Eugene pretty definitively cares about nothing else.

Perhaps if people keep repeating arguments, its because you are addressing them poorly or not at all. Repeating your incorrect answer does not make it more correct.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Perhaps if people keep repeating arguments, its because you are addressing them poorly or not at all. Repeating your incorrect answer does not make it more correct.

But what if it has tge possibility to be correct without you instantly shutting it down?

[Keltest]

But what if it has tge possibility to be correct without you instantly shutting it down?

Well then that would be different. But it doesn't. Whats your point? Its not a new argument, we've been over it a dozen times now, and Lacuna still insists that Shojo's motivations should be fundamentally different than what they actually are, and is subsequently confused when Shojo does not act according to the motivations he doesn't have.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Well then that would be different. But it doesn't. Whats your point? Its not a new argument, we've been over it a dozen times now, and Lacuna still insists that Shojo's motivations should be fundamentally different than what they actually are, and is subsequently confused when Shojo does not act according to the motivations he doesn't have.

Oh... sorry... Probably shouldn't hace skipped to the final page without reaeing previoys discussions...
But wasn't lacuna saying that Eugene (while disguised as a being of law and good) should've told the paladins?

[Riftwolf]

I haven't read GDGU yet, but my understanding was that Shojos 'senility' and extra-legal activities only concerned the paladins recently (as in since Dorukans Gate blew up); their primary role was defending Soons Gate, not the day to day running of the city. Nales imprisonment could've been breaking point for O-Chuls lawfulness, but he didn't have chance to take the steps needed to replacing the leader of the Sapphire Guard (and Shojo could've easily swayed the Guard by pointing out Nale was a known ally to Xykon. Y'know, the same reason Roy gave to bum a free teleport.)

[Keltest]

Oh... sorry... Probably shouldn't hace skipped to the final page without reaeing previoys discussions...
But wasn't lacuna saying that Eugene (while disguised as a being of law and good) should've told the paladins?

Maybe he could have, but if he tried to subvert control of the paladins, all Shojo had to do was reveal that Eugene wasn't actually the being of Law and Good that they had intended to summon and he's gone. To say nothing of the fact that the paladins have an actual duty to guard the Sapphire (hence the name) and therefore cant just go globetrotting chasing down every random evil being they hear about unless they have good reason to believe theyre an imminent threat to their gate.

[Kish]

Oh... sorry... Probably shouldn't hace skipped to the final page without reaeing previoys discussions...
But wasn't lacuna saying that Eugene (while disguised as a being of law and good) should've told the paladins?

Yes. After not getting very far with the argument that it's a plot hole that Shojo didn't discard his facade of senility and focus all his resources on crushing Xykon, he's now arguing that it's a plot hole that Eugene, disguised as "The Being of Pure Law and Good" acted like what Shojo wanted mattered at all. Apparently it can be assumed that Eugene had either enough ranks in Bluff or, more likely, enough ranks in God Mode that Shojo would automatically let him talk to the paladins freely, even if he intended to do something Shojo wouldn't have agreed to.

[Keltest]

Yes. After not getting very far with the argument that it's a plot hole that Shojo didn't discard his facade of senility and focus all his resources on crushing Xykon, he's now arguing that it's a plot hole that Eugene, disguised as "The Being of Pure Law and Good" acted like what Shojo wanted mattered at all. Apparently it can be assumed that Eugene had either enough ranks in Bluff or, more likely, enough ranks in God Mode that Shojo would automatically let him talk to the paladins freely, even if he intended to do something Shojo wouldn't have agreed to.

And also that the paladins would inexplicably ignore Shojo's authority on the matter and choose to go against Xykon in spite of his protests.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And their own oaths.

Really, Lacuna's arguments for how Shojo should act sound a lot like Girard's rant about how Soon would act. Which was explicitly pointed out as not understanding the first thing about paladins.

[Wizard_Lizard]

And their own oaths.

Really, Lacuna's arguments for how Shojo should act sound a lot like Girard's rant about how Soon would act. Which was explicitly pointed out as not understanding the first thing about paladins.

coincidence?
I
Think
so!
(for the bit about grirard)

[Lacuna Caster]

I am no great fan of Miko, but I think Lacuna Caster's actually made a number of pretty good points in this thread. I started skimming around page 8 (at 50 posts per page) but I missed if someone directly addressed this:

What would it actually look like where Shojo has made an order to bring them alive and Miko misinterprets it as an order to kill them? Shojo is a very clever manipulator -- not flawless, he makes multiple mistakes of judgment, but he's pretty good at the job. He's been manipulating Miko for years and Miko earlier on in the storyline looks pretty rational -- not likable (although rereading as an older person, I find Roy's sexism to be incredibly unbearable in this section) -- what sort of order could he reasonably make that could be reasonably misinterpreted by Miko?

Oh, hey, I missed this. Thanks I guess?

As for what a plausibly misinterpretable set of orders might have looked like... I don't know. There are enough things that have to go wrong in order for the canon narrative to transpire that I find it hard to even think about the question. Sangwaan and Eugene basically both have to be missing in order for Miko to lack enough useful intelligence on the Order and LG that this kind of misunderstanding could even take place.

Oh... sorry... Probably shouldn't hace skipped to the final page without reaeing previoys discussions...
But wasn't lacuna saying that Eugene (while disguised as a being of law and good) should've told the paladins?

Yes. Even if Eugene/the BoPLaG, for some reason, didn't talk about Xykon & Redcloak, at a bare minimum he (and Sangwaan) should be providing a complete description of the OOTS and Linear Guild, including their names, alignments, favoured spells, et cetera.

After not getting very far with the argument that it's a plot hole that Shojo didn't discard his facade of senility and focus all his resources on crushing Xykon...

If Shojo maintaining a facade of senility requires that he make consistently terrible executive decisions that would seem to rather contradict the purpose of the facade. (Which is something I actually agree would make maintaining the facade intrinsically difficult/counter-productive, but that's another discussion.) In any case, Shojo doesn't need to break character in order to have his Being of Pure Law and Good tell the paladins more-or-less everything that actually happened and what they actually need to do.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Eugene needs uber-ranks in Bluff or God Mode in order to do this, other than, perhaps, the general requirement of presenting as a celestial being, which he was evidently quite capable of doing. Sure, he might have some trouble talking to the paladins over Shojo's objections, but why would Shojo object in the first place? Eugene's intel is exactly the kind of evidence he needs in order to justify intervention at other Gate sites, which is what he ostensibly wanted.

And their own oaths...

Which would be relevant if they actually knew that Xykon was currently at one of the other intact Gates. It's completely irrelevant to investigating the ruins of Dorukan's Gate, which is the last place where Xykon and Redcloak were spotted and the logical point to start hunting them from.

[Wizard_Lizard]

But the point is that he didn't.
Sure he could have.
But
He didn't.
He probsbly has his reasons too.

[Darth Paul]

Lacuna has points which he thinks valid, and I'm not interested in debating that anymore. What I'm interested in is that, on a meta level, what Lacuna regards as plot holes are actually the story Rich is telling.

If Shojo had given Miko a full briefing and a polite introduction to the OotS, teleported her to them with some reason they should come to Azure City, and then organized a strike force of overwhelming strength based on the intel he gained from them to find and destroy Xykon- the story would be over at the end of book 2. Moreover, it's no longer the story of the Order of the Stick. It's the story of how the Sapphire Guard saved the world, and then the Order went back to being a group of lowlife dungeon crawling fools.

Stories happen because the heroes screw up. A LOT. In The Wrath of Khan, if Kirk takes Saavik's advice and raises the shields when he first sees the Reliant, there's no movie.

Conflict between protagonists further propels the story. What is The Avengers without six heroes with wildly conflicting personalities having to forge themselves into a team?

Sure, we the audience or we the readers can see what we would have done differently. (Don't bring Boromir along on the road to Mount Doom, for one thing.) But we also see the outcome of all those decisions. We're Monday morning quarterbacks. We can see the perfect decisions.

The worst kind of D&D player, to me, is the one who works out every possible outcome of every possible decision in the round before actually committing. Life isn't like that. Life is: Try something that might work, and if it doesn't, you try something else. That's exactly what everyone in OotS does, whether it's on a tactical level or on the level of planning their life.

Rich has made it clear that he's not interested in a story about perfect characters making perfect decisions. He's telling a story about flawed protagonists and flawed antagonists and the decisions they make. That's why they do what they do. Sometimes they're brilliant; sometimes they're idiots. Sometimes they're brilliant idiots.

[Lacuna Caster]

But the point is that he didn't.
Sure he could have.
But
He didn't.
He probsbly has his reasons too.

I don't really believe Shojo had good reasons. I think the author was just writing slapstick comedy, gradually tacked on new plot elements in an ad-hoc fashion, and either didn't notice or didn't care that this made earlier character decisions look increasingly incongruous in retrospect. Which would be fine, if certain readers would just be honest that this is actually what happened.

Lacuna has points which he thinks valid, and I'm not interested in debating that anymore. What I'm interested in is that, on a meta level, what Lacuna regards as plot holes are actually the story Rich is telling.

I don't accept this false dichotomy between stilted perfection and nonsensical contrivance, I don't see any reason why having the Guard in general and/or Miko specifically as primary agonists would yield inherently inferior drama, and I don't see that a shorter story with tighter writing would be some unmitigated tragedy.

There are plenty of ways to throw a spanner in the Guard's operations if you really want to drag things out- the Guard don't have any immediate method of nailing down Xykon's precise location, so finding leads could generate it's own complications, and there is always the off-chance that a direct assault on Xykon might end in defeat or a pyrrhic victory, even with him in a weakened state. (Off the top of my head, some members of the Linear Guild might warn Redcloak he's being hunted, thus giving him time to prep or arrange diversions. Maybe rescuing some local peasants-in-distress eats up enough time that they miss Xykon's window of regeneration. Maybe Hinjo finds out about... any of the things that Haley or Belkar generally do in the early strip and demands that Roy hold them accountable. Or maybe Miko and O-Chul argue over the risks of invading hobgoblin territory and thus provoking a war, et cetera.)

Oodles of room for legitimate disagreement, internal group conflict and varying degrees of screwups there. But whatever.

[woweedd]

I don't really believe Shojo had good reasons. I think the author was just writing slapstick comedy, gradually tacked on new plot elements in an ad-hoc fashion, and either didn't notice or didn't care that this made earlier character decisions look increasingly incongruous in retrospect. Which would be fine, if certain readers would just be honest that this is actually what happened.


I don't accept this false dichotomy between stilted perfection and nonsensical contrivance, I don't see any reason why having the Guard in general and/or Miko specifically as primary agonists would yield inherently inferior drama, and I don't see that a shorter story with tighter writing would be some unmitigated tragedy.

There are plenty of ways to throw a spanner in the Guard's operations if you really want to drag things out- the Guard don't have any immediate method of nailing down Xykon's precise location, so finding leads could generate it's own complications, and there is always the off-chance that a direct assault on Xykon might end in defeat or a pyrrhic victory, even with him in a weakened state. (Off the top of my head, some members of the Linear Guild might warn Redcloak he's being hunted, thus giving him time to prep or arrange diversions. Maybe rescuing some local peasants-in-distress eats up enough time that they miss Xykon's window of regeneration. Maybe Hinjo finds out about... any of the things that Haley or Belkar generally do in the early strip and demands that Roy hold them accountable. Or maybe Miko and O-Chul argue over the risks of invading hobgoblin territory and thus provoking a war, et cetera.)

Oodles of room for legitimate disagreement, internal group conflict and varying degrees of screwups there. But whatever.

Lacuna, I have a question: Do you actually enjoy this comic? Like,a t all? Because all your suggestions seem to have the vibe of someone who doesn't like...even the bare fundamentals of the story, and would much rather it center around one particular side-character they seem to have built up an idealized self-image of. Shorting the story, changing the protagonist...This speaks to someone who not only doesn't like the comic, but never really did. You like Miko, I know that. But Rich was never interested in telling a story about Miko, and at a certain point, you have to accept that. I love OOTS for its verbal humor, its shockingly nuanced dialogue, its playing around with ropes like Fantastic Racism and the murder hobo PC. This version sounds like it'd be just another cookie-cutter fantasy story. OOTS is both comedy and drama, but you seem to think the two can't co-exist. And I get that criticism on a certain level: I've heard the criticism that, with some characters, it feels like they're doing the DVD commentary of their own story. But, my point is, did you ever like OOTS? Or did you just like Miko? Think about it, will you? It's not unique: Hell, it's a fairly common addiction in certains areas of fandom: I've seen many a fan who, as it turns out, wasn't so mucha fan of the work as they were a fan of a particular character, merley using the work as a vessel for seeing them, and, like you, seem to lose interest completely whenever their "baby" isn't on screen. Often with an idealized view of their fave, and, indeed, feeling their favorite should be a central character...This seems like the symptoms of someone who was only ever really a fan of OOTS as a Miko delivery system.

[Kish]

I don't accept this false dichotomy between stilted perfection and nonsensical contrivance,

Now if only you had the self-awareness to go from that to "...which I introduced, so oops."

[Darth Paul]

I don't really believe Shojo had good reasons. I think the author was just writing slapstick comedy, gradually tacked on new plot elements in an ad-hoc fashion, and either didn't notice or didn't care that this made earlier character decisions look increasingly incongruous in retrospect. Which would be fine, if certain readers would just be honest that this is actually what happened.


I don't accept this false dichotomy between stilted perfection and nonsensical contrivance, I don't see any reason why having the Guard in general and/or Miko specifically as primary agonists would yield inherently inferior drama, and I don't see that a shorter story with tighter writing would be some unmitigated tragedy.

There are plenty of ways to throw a spanner in the Guard's operations if you really want to drag things out- the Guard don't have any immediate method of nailing down Xykon's precise location, so finding leads could generate it's own complications, and there is always the off-chance that a direct assault on Xykon might end in defeat or a pyrrhic victory, even with him in a weakened state. (Off the top of my head, some members of the Linear Guild might warn Redcloak he's being hunted, thus giving him time to prep or arrange diversions. Maybe rescuing some local peasants-in-distress eats up enough time that they miss Xykon's window of regeneration. Maybe Hinjo finds out about... any of the things that Haley or Belkar generally do in the early strip and demands that Roy hold them accountable. Or maybe Miko and O-Chul argue over the risks of invading hobgoblin territory and thus provoking a war, et cetera.)

Oodles of room for legitimate disagreement, internal group conflict and varying degrees of screwups there. But whatever.

But the point is, that would still be the story of the Sapphire Guard's quest to destroy Xykon instead of Roy's quest. Roy is no longer a central character. The OotS are hereafter peripheral characters.

As another analogy: The Lord of the Rings would make so much more sense to a lot of readers if Elrond, Aragorn, and a host of Rangers, along with Gandalf, had just thrown Frodo on a horse and escorted him to Mordor. Surely there's no way Sauron can be watching every single route to his land, and Rangers are the all-time pros at sneaking places undetected. So you have the equivalent of a Special Forces battalion running this hobbit into hostile territory. Anything they can't evade, they can kill. The story is over in like half the time, and none of that angsty whining about how hard it is to be a Ring-Bearer. That's how a D&D campaign would go.

But that's not the story Tolkien wanted to tell. He wanted to tell a story about how weakness can overcome strength, and how it can be its own kind of strength; how quiet courage and dignity can overcome armed might. And in my example, it ceases to be the story of the hobbits. They just become another Maguffin. They're acted upon instead of acting.

As woweed asks, do you like this comic? I'll go a step further: What story would you like to be reading?

[Keltest]

I think Lacuna has been pretty clear in the past that they DONT like this comic, although given how little they seem to understand it, its somewhat difficult to tell the chicken from the egg here.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think Lacuna has been pretty clear in the past that they DONT like this comic, although given how little they seem to understand it, its somewhat difficult to tell the chicken from the egg here.

The egg came first. The protochicken laid the egg, the chicken hatched out of the egg.
Oh.
I see.
It was a metaphor.

[Darth Paul]

The egg came first. The protochicken laid the egg, the chicken hatched out of the egg.
Oh.
I see.
It was a metaphor.

I metaphor a drink and it was love at first sight.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I metaphor a drink and it was love at first sight.

A pun that bad deserves a nice simile.

[Caerulea]

I metaphor a drink and it was love at first sight.

A pun that bad deserves a nice simile.

Hmmmm? I do not understand either of these.

—Caerulea

[woweedd]

A pun that bad deserves a nice simile.

Puns are like similes and smilies in that i'm making them right now.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Hmmmm? I do not understand either of these.

—Caerulea

I understand th last one. simile looks like smile when read.

[Kish]

Hmmmm? I do not understand either of these.

—Caerulea

"metaphor" sounds vaguely like "met her for" and "simile" has the same letters as "smilie."