Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

[Wizard_Lizard]

there is no way miko is going to mount celstia.
She is lawful stupid.
if tiamat believes wht sh is doing is good, it doea not make it good.
same applies to Miko.

[Vinyadan]

No.


[bolding mine]

—Caerulea

The nice fact about this for the Greenhilts is that Celia, in theory, could visit Roy after he croaks.

EDIT: I do not feel so sure about Miko being lawful. To what moral code was she adhering? "I am awesome, and you are all setting me up" doesn't strike me as one. True Neutral would be my (charitable) guess.

[Wizard_Lizard]

The nice fact about this for the Greenhilts is that Celia, in theory, could visit Roy after he croaks.

EDIT: I do not feel so sure about Miko being lawful. To what moral code was she adhering? "I am awesome, and you are all setting me up" doesn't strike me as one. True Neutral would be my (charitable) guess.

I was thinking more lawful evil, she believes a code and strictly adheres to it, but will twist it to get her desired outcome. But true neutral wrks too

[Peelee]

And that is different from ruleslawyering her alignment how?

Intent and execution, I'd say.

While that may well be a sentiment that Miko and a certain elf with goblin prisoners may hold, do you actually believe that such is a general argument that is accepted by most Good characters/gods in the OotsVerse?

Well, she stayed a Paladin until she cut down Shojo, so...

[Goblin_Priest]

The OotSverse is blatantly unfair, so any claim that "X should work like Y because otherwise it'd be unfair" have no grounding whatsoever.

Also, Eugene is officially Lawful Good, as far as I'm aware, and despite everything we've ever seen of him.

[Aquillion]

The nice fact about this for the Greenhilts is that Celia, in theory, could visit Roy after he croaks.

EDIT: I do not feel so sure about Miko being lawful. To what moral code was she adhering? "I am awesome, and you are all setting me up" doesn't strike me as one. True Neutral would be my (charitable) guess.

"Death to evildoers" is a code. She clearly has a very rigid view of the world and how it ought to be. Also, it's worth remembering that we only saw a small part of her life - a Paladin can fall from one action, but it won't necessarily change their alignment. Most of her interactions with the OOTS were plainly from a lawful perspective, fixated on small and big rules.

To a certain extent her conspiracy-theories were a symptom of her excessive lawfulness, since she was obsessed with the idea that the entire world was run according to these rigid systems when it actually wasn't.

[TheOneHawk]

The OotSverse is blatantly unfair, so any claim that "X should work like Y because otherwise it'd be unfair" have no grounding whatsoever.

Also, Eugene is officially Lawful Good, as far as I'm aware, and despite everything we've ever seen of him.

Eugene considers himself LG, hence why he went to Celestia. He hasn't had his interview yet, because of the outstanding blood oath. Just like Roy almost got kicked down based on his actions, despite considering himself LG, Eugene almost certainly will actually get kicked down to true neutral.

[masamune1]

Killing Evil creatures regardless of why apparently is enough to count as Good, but I wouldnt call it right or just.

Pretty sure the Giant has said the exact opposite- that killing evil creatures for no good reason can actually make you change alignment in the wrong direction.

Well, admittedly, what he said was closer to "evil races are not INHERENTLY evil so their are Neutral and even Good aligned members of every race, particularly their children", which is why per Word of Giant the Paladins' who killed Redcloaks goblins all Fell when they massacred them.

Even so, I don't think there is anything in this comic that says that killing an evil creature without a good reason or at least a reasonable suspicion is anything other than Evil itself.

[Chronos]

If O-Chul or Hinjo screwed up royally (well, commonly, in O-Chul's case) at the end of their lives, that one screw-up might not be enough to shift them out of Lawful Good. But while Miko was good for most of her life, she was never very good. Even at her best, she tended to value Law over Good (see, for instance, the mattress tag). When you're close to the line, it doesn't take much to move you over it.

[Darth Paul]

"Death to evildoers" is a code. She clearly has a very rigid view of the world and how it ought to be. Also, it's worth remembering that we only saw a small part of her life - a Paladin can fall from one action, but it won't necessarily change their alignment. Most of her interactions with the OOTS were plainly from a lawful perspective, fixated on small and big rules.

To a certain extent her conspiracy-theories were a symptom of her excessive lawfulness, since she was obsessed with the idea that the entire world was run according to these rigid systems when it actually wasn't.

That's why I think she did lose her Good status at the end. Roy already gave a pretty decent summing up of how she didn't really follow the precepts of Lawful Good here. Just following the letter of the alignment isn't good enough. She was fairly Lawful (except for the "taking the law into her own hands" moment at the end), but the only Good she really did, as Peelee points out, was killing Evil beings. I believe she was borderline Good, and the act of killing Shojo pushed her off.

[Peelee]

Pretty sure the Giant has said the exact opposite- that killing evil creatures for no good reason can actually make you change alignment in the wrong direction.

Well, admittedly, what he said was closer to "evil races are not INHERENTLY evil so their are Neutral and even Good aligned members of every race, particularly their children", which is why per Word of Giant the Paladins' who killed Redcloaks goblins all Fell when they massacred them.

That's not what he said, and that's not what he said.

[woweedd]

huh.
Are all wizards in oots neutral?
V
Roy's sister
Eugene

Dourkan was a good guy.

[Darth Paul]

Dourkan was a good guy.

Long lost cousin of Durkon and Dorukan?

[Ariko]

Long lost cousin of Durkon and Dorukan?

That, or a eastern ruler with an unpleasant personality.

[2D8HP]

...(Also, once again we see one of the fundamental rules of this board - threads allowed to continue will inevitably tend toward talking about Miko)

....Or Star Wars.

Or, what if Miko had been a character in Star Wars??

...this is a thread about a magic meme, there needs to be a version of Godwin's Law that relates to Star Wars...

It only took 26 posts to turn this into another thread about Star Wars.

Impressive. Most impressive.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

...All roads/strips lead to Familicide and Star Wars, I see...

....I suspect we have Lucas's Law at work here - a parallel law to Godwin's...

This is an interesting thread; first you talk about OOTS, then Redwall, which is followed by King Arther, then Lord of the Rings, THEN the hardness of different metals, then some more about Lord of the Rings, throw in another Redwall Refrence, Some more King Arthur, then end it with metals again. Oh, and this post. I like it!

Forget Godwin's law, at the Playground most sufficiently long enough threads touch on:

1) Star Wars

2) Lord of the Rings

3) Grammar

I for one welcome our continuing obsessions.

I vote we call it 9HPAvg's law

Unfortunately my efforts to add new obsessions have failed

....Which is good, true and beautiful, though I'm a bit befuddled that Harry Potter doesn't come up more, but no biggie.

However, I'm VERY DISAPPOINTED!!! at the lack of The Planet of the Apes references.

YOU MANIACS!!!

DAM...

Anyway, more apes please.

Also Buckaroo Banzai and Galaxy Quest.

Thanks.

well, mostly failed

By Grabthar's Hammer... .

...It was a hooked hammer that once belonged to his ancestor Grabthar, who used in in a major battle allied with the dwarven king Warvan and his sons....

By Grabthar's Hammer, I try!

[Prinygod]

That's why I think she did lose her Good status at the end. Roy already gave a pretty decent summing up of how she didn't really follow the precepts of Lawful Good here. Just following the letter of the alignment isn't good enough. She was fairly Lawful (except for the "taking the law into her own hands" moment at the end), but the only Good she really did, as Peelee points out, was killing Evil beings. I believe she was borderline Good, and the act of killing Shojo pushed her off.

I don't think you can go that far. Even with in the comic she went out of her way to save the farmer despite delaying her mission. I don't think she demonstrated any sadism with killing evil creatures, even during her obsession with Belkar. If trying gets you credit in the after life, I would say she certainly was.

[D.One]

That, or a eastern ruler with an unpleasant personality.

Or a very unfriendly tiger...

[Aquillion]

She was fairly Lawful (except for the "taking the law into her own hands" moment at the end), but the only Good she really did, as Peelee points out, was killing Evil beings. I believe she was borderline Good, and the act of killing Shojo pushed her off.

That's not quite true.

While it's true that she kills Evil fairly indiscriminately, she was concerned that the OOTS may have killed a good dragon. She did care about fighting the ogres honorably (but found a strategically-effective way to do so.) Also, she saved people when the inn was burning down.

Remember, we kind of saw her at her worst, since the OOTS rubbed her the wrong way since the beginning.

[Rogar Demonblud]

She also had the 'ride for the city to spread the alarm' moment there before the Battle of Azure City. The Giant explicitly called that out in commentary as her doing her duty as a paladin.

[Wizard_Lizard]

She also had the 'ride for the city to spread the alarm' moment there before the Battle of Azure City. The Giant explicitly called that out in commentary as her doing her duty as a paladin.

yesm But doing something because it is her duty is very lawful but we uhave no ide as to the goodness of the act.
I thibk she is lawful stupid.
But you do have lot of good points and may even chang my mind!

[hroþila]

I think it's very likely that Miko gave generous alms, based on her dialogue and her lifestyle.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think it's very likely that Miko gave generous alms, based on her dialogue and her lifestyle.

I guess so. Even if she was a delusional psycopath, she wasn't ALL bad.

[Sir_Norbert]

yesm But doing something because it is her duty is very lawful but we uhave no ide as to the goodness of the act.

Sure we have. Putting yourself in danger for the sake of others is good. Doesn't matter whether you had a code a duty reinforcing it; that just makes it lawful in addition to good.

[Darth Paul]

We're talking about different stages of her character development. Also, bear in mind that people can do good things, without being strictly Good aligned. Even Evil Has Loved Ones.

There's no doubt she acted to warn Azure City because she cared about Azure City. But in the ogre battle, despite her concern to fight honorably, the main message that I took away is that she treated the OOTS as playing pieces to order as she needed them to act. V certainly took it that way. Not even hinting at her plan, expecting everyone to respond as she ordered without a question; that's not a Good "within the spirit of the alignment" attitude. It's extremely Lawful, though; "I am in charge, and you do what I say."

[Fyraltari]

I guess so. Even if she was a delusional psycopath, she wasn't ALL bad.

Miko certainly wasn’t a psychopath. She was violent and deluded, yes, but she did care for a great many things and people (Shojo and Windstriker).

[LadyEowyn]

So, I was just rereading oots and Roy's sister saiid that she was true neutral, since all of Roy's family are lawful good, does that mean that she won't end up in the same afterlife as her family?

If Julia remains True Neutral. At this point I think it’s just representative of the fact that she’s a self-absorbed teenager still figuring out who she wants to be. True Neutral is (among other things) a kind of ‘default’ alignment.

She may pick another alignment once she’s grown up a bit and decided what she wants her life to be about.

EDIT: Seriously, how does a thread that’s completely unrelated to Miko derail into a Miko argument within half a page?

[Prinygod]

We're talking about different stages of her character development. Also, bear in mind that people can do good things, without being strictly Good aligned. Even Evil Has Loved Ones.

There's no doubt she acted to warn Azure City because she cared about Azure City. But in the ogre battle, despite her concern to fight honorably, the main message that I took away is that she treated the OOTS as playing pieces to order as she needed them to act. V certainly took it that way. Not even hinting at her plan, expecting everyone to respond as she ordered without a question; that's not a Good "within the spirit of the alignment" attitude. It's extremely Lawful, though; "I am in charge, and you do what I say."

You cannot become a paladin with out being good. Trying to say she was anything but good before her fall is pointless, even if you find he behavior unpleasant. Being Paladin goes a step further in that they cannot commit evil acts, if they do they lose their powers and have to attone. It's entirely possible she was still good after her fall, as she had dedicated her life to good, despite her flaws.

[Rogar Demonblud]

EDIT: Seriously, how does a thread that’s completely unrelated to Miko derail into a Miko argument within half a page?

Less Seriously: Have you met us?

[Fyraltari]

EDIT: Seriously, how does a thread that’s completely unrelated to Miko derail into a Miko argument within half a page?

It's an alignment/afterlife thread.

[Cinnibar]

All the points about Miko ending up on LN or other than LG just forget one thing: that entire sequence was basically, at most, a blip on the Deva's notes.

Even to Roy, the rules for being LG aren't hard and fast, it will likely come down to Miko was indeed trying to be her alignment of Lawful Good, to the best of her mortal understanding. Neither Roy, nor Miko, had to achieve the ideal LG to be allowed to the LG mountain. Even Roy got a pass on that evil thing he did when he was young, not to mention taking on Belkar and abandoning Elan. The review is a full review, and from what we've seen, takes into account the mortal aspect.

Hence, even Roy's father is hanging out outside the Mountain instead of some other afterlife. Even after impersonating a greater being.