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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    All the points about Miko ending up on LN or other than LG just forget one thing: that entire sequence was basically, at most, a blip on the Deva's notes.
    [citation needed]

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    [citation needed]
    Roy's Deva: you almost abandoned a subordinate. Had you not realised how bad that was, and gone back, you'd be in TN by now.

    Miko's Deva: you actually murdered your boss, and to your dying breath were convinced you did the right thing.

    Cinnibar: I see no difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Roy's Deva: you almost abandoned a subordinate. Had you not realised how bad that was, and gone back, you'd be in LN by now.

    Miko's Deva: you actually murdered your boss, and to your dying breath were convinced you did the right thing.

    Cinnibar: I see no difference.

    Grey Wolf
    Difference is that one is a strip, the other is a fond hope, and ignores the fact that the boss was indeed manipulating and tricking the LG Paladins despite their oath, doing 'evil' acts under their noses, even the other paladin there at the time thought this was grievous.

    As for your take on my opinion, well, I guess that goes to your creative imagination points as well. Good job.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    Difference is that one is a strip, the other is a fond hope
    I fail to see how that "difference" is any such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    and ignores the fact that the boss was indeed manipulating and tricking the LG Paladins despite their oath, doing 'evil' acts under their noses, even the other paladin there at the time thought this was grievous.
    None of which in any way counters that she murdered her own boss, and never accepted she was wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    The context matters. Miko screwed up. Some of that was due to her own delusions, but some of it was (as the author's notes pointed out) because of Shojo's actual lies to her regarding her destiny and identity. She did the wrong thing under the belief that it was right.

    Roy knowingly, intentionally, deliberately intended to abandon a companion. It wasn't a misunderstanding on his part. He knew full-well that what he was doing was wrong, and was intentionally doing the wrong thing regardless.

    "I thought it was the right thing to do" isn't a universal excuse, of course. But knowingly doing evil is clearly worse.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    doing 'evil' acts under their noses
    Which ones?
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    The context matters. Miko screwed up. Some of that was due to her own delusions, but some of it was (as the author's notes pointed out) because of Shojo's actual lies to her regarding her destiny and identity. She did the wrong thing under the belief that it was right.
    She murdered her own boss, and refused to accept she was wrong about having done so despite the gods she claimed to be obeying telling her in no uncertain manner that she screwed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Roy knowingly, intentionally, deliberately intended to abandon a companion. It wasn't a misunderstanding on his part. He knew full-well that what he was doing was wrong, and was intentionally doing the wrong thing regardless.

    "I thought it was the right thing to do" isn't a universal excuse, of course. But knowingly doing evil is clearly worse.
    And Miko and Roy both should have known that they did the wrong thing. Of the two, only Roy did acknowledge his mistake and rectified his actions before he died. Which his Deva highlights is what saved him from being kicked out of LG. Thus, Miko, who did not rectify, does get kicked out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    Difference is that one is a strip, the other is a fond hope, and ignores the fact that the boss was indeed manipulating and tricking the LG Paladins despite their oath, doing 'evil' acts under their noses, even the other paladin there at the time thought this was grievous.

    As for your take on my opinion, well, I guess that goes to your creative imagination points as well. Good job.
    In addition to what Fyraltari and Grey Wolf have said, I'd like to reiterate that none of this constitutes evidence that "that entire sequence was basically, at most, a blip on the Deva's notes."

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    In addition to what Fyraltari and Grey Wolf have said, I'd like to reiterate that none of this constitutes evidence that "that entire sequence was basically, at most, a blip on the Deva's notes."
    Agreed, but also to be clear: even if it was (and it was not, IMnpHO), a similar "blip" almost got Roy kicked out anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I fail to see how that "difference" is any such thing.



    None of which in any way counters that she murdered her own boss, and never accepted she was wrong.

    Grey Wolf
    Which doesn't mean she isn't still good. It certainly is a good case of why she is not good, ignoring mitigating factors, but the rest of her life as a paladin is a good case of why she is good. The afterlife in dnd is not about rewards and punishments, but where you belong in the spectrum of alignments in the afterlife. Roy may be good, but he wasn't "dedicate his life in the pursuit of Good" good. I'm not sure the situations are comparable 1:1.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    Which doesn't mean she isn't still good. It certainly is a good case of why she is not good, ignoring mitigating factors, but the rest of her life as a paladin is a good case of why she is good. The afterlife in dnd is not about rewards and punishments, but where you belong in the spectrum of alignments in the afterlife. Roy may be good, but he wasn't "dedicate his life in the pursuit of Good" good. I'm not sure the situations are comparable 1:1.
    [citation needed]

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    Which doesn't mean she isn't still good. It certainly is a good case of why she is not good, ignoring mitigating factors, but the rest of her life as a paladin is a good case of why she is good. The afterlife in dnd is not about rewards and punishments, but where you belong in the spectrum of alignments in the afterlife. Roy may be good, but he wasn't "dedicate his life in the pursuit of Good" good. I'm not sure the situations are comparable 1:1.
    [citation needed]

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    [citation needed]
    Read the comic rather than demand us do the research for you both?

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    Read the comic rather than demand us do the research for you both?
    Better still: you don't shift the burden of proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Better still: you don't shift the burden of proof.

    Grey Wolf
    Nor do you avoid the proof in front of you because it conflicts with your judgement, like Miko. :)
    Last edited by Cinnibar; 2019-04-30 at 01:51 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    Nor do you avoid the proof in front of you because it conflicts with your judgement, like Miko. :)
    You do realise that you simply stating something is true doesn't automatically make it true, right? That when we [citation needed] an assertion, it is a shortened way of saying "this statement conflicts with our understanding of the canon, please back it up", right?

    If you think you have "proof in front of you", present it. Your word alone counts for literally 0, and the more you avoid presenting this "obvious evidence" you seem convinced exists, the more you look less and less reliable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    If you think you have "proof in front of you", present it. Your word alone counts for literally 0, and the more you avoid presenting this "obvious evidence" you seem convinced exists, the more you look less and less reliable.
    Because I thought you were knowledgeable about this comic, and obviously could see and read the comics instead of resorting to petulant demands for justification by others in the common textbook. It took me little time to find #490 and #285 around where I thought they would be. Perhaps if you had asked what strip rather than sitting on a holy throne going [citation needed] as the meme goes?

    But that's okay, I found the reference for you. You may now belittle it as is the next step in the meme argument path this has taken.

    Your move, Miko
    Last edited by Cinnibar; 2019-04-30 at 02:12 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Mko is going to acheron or the nine hells for being lawful stupid.
    That's an insult to both Acheron and the Nine Hells.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    This is going to sound really bad, but... well, let's say my brother and I were both OOTS characters, OK? And given the plane he's likely to end up on, I wouldn't really want anything to do with him in the afterlife any more than I do now, unless people can reform themselves up there (down there?) and change their alignment posthumously. (And personality too.)
    "The Afterlife manager people should let dead people meet their relatives" != "The Afterlife manager people should force dead people to meet their relatives"
    (Of course, whether or not the managers should let dead people meet their relatives has little influence over whether or not they do.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Mandor View Post
    Is there actual Word of Giant that Miko is going somewhere other than Celestia? I always thought Miko was in fact Lawful Good throughout her life.... simply also Delusional and seeing the world through Miko-only-lenses.
    That's my thought. Alignment is a pretty broad brush, after all; just because you disagree with a paladin doesn't mean the paladin is evil. Nearly all of Miko's actions were Lawful in some sense and Good in some sense; she followed her own code of honor to the end, and everything she did was an attempt to stop evil from festering. She made mistakes and committed Evil acts, but (as Aquillion noted) so did Roy, and he even knew some of those acts were wrong when he did them.
    While Roy is far more moral and just than Miko, I'm not convinced he's meaningfully more Lawful or Good than she is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I disagree, and think she fell into the same trap that ensnared Gin Jun.
    Spoiler: Scar
    Show
    She was so concerned with whether what she was doing was Good or Lawful, that she didn't take any time to consider whether it was right or just.
    With the alignment system as broad as it is, I wouldn't peg that as anything but Lawful Good. It's obviously wrong (though probably not as wrong as Miko's consistently twisted understanding of the world, I haven't read Scar yet), but that's not really the same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Plus the disconcerting detail that most Evil creatures will be killed by other Evil creatures (the Blood War alone will see to that). Hard to see fiends getting into the Upper Planes, no matter how many Evil-ites they've slaughtered.
    Quibbling over metaphysics aside, motivation is crucial to alignment and afterlives*. If you kill baatezu your whole life to prevent fiends from getting a foothold in the mortal plane and ravaging the innocent mortals, you're Good; if you kill baatezu your whole life because you like killing things and they're convenient targets, you're evil.

    *Now I kinda want to see an afterlife-focused supplement with that title. Maybe something for Outer Planes adventures, maybe something like the Ghostwalk campaign setting but without the setting, maybe just rules and ideas for adventures post-TPK.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    Also, it's worth remembering that we only saw a small part of her life - a Paladin can fall from one action, but it won't necessarily change their alignment.
    This, so much. Miko's actions before killing Shojo were obviously not enough to make her non-LG (since if she went LN before that, she'd lose her paladin status), so she must have been LG up until that point, and I don't think killing one helpless old man out of misguided self-righteousness is enough to change your alignment in one fell swoop. If Miko had lived longer, she'd probably fall far enough to settle comfortably into LN territory, but she didn't.
    The D&D rules make it clear that alignment changes do not come from one individual incident, and nothing in OotS has suggested otherwise. And no, Miko's fall doesn't count, because losing paladin status is not the same as changing alignment; that is, in fact, the point of the paladin class.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Roy may be good, but he wasn't "dedicate his life in the pursuit of Good" good.
    [citation needed]
    Roy has never shown an interest in good for good's sake. He's shown an interest in beating Xykon for revenge, and beating Xykon to save the world, and beating Hel to save the world and Durkon, etc etc, which are all good things...but that's different than dedicating your life to the pursuit of Good.
    Some would say that's just semantics. Others would say that's literally the whole difference between a paladin and a nice cleric/fighter.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    the rest of her life as a paladin is a good case of why she is good.
    [citation needed]
    "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good...loses all paladin spells and abilities." (PHB, pg 44)
    Thus, Miko's life as a paladin proves that she must be Lawful Good, or else she wouldn't be a paladin. Since the paladin's oath is so much stricter than alignment, and since the DMG makes it clear alignment isn't fragile enough to be changed by a single act (unlike a code of conduct), it stands to reason that without magical influence over one's psyche, they would stop being a paladin before they stopped being Lawful Good.
    If a single evil act were enough to change characters' alignments, Elan and Durkon would be the only Good members of the party...and maybe not even them, if we're not allowing "I didn't realize I was doing something wrong" as an acceptable defence.


    Sorry about the lack of organization, I wanted to post this before the [citation needed] argument went too long without citations. Do your own dang work, Cinnibar, it's not that hard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    Because I thought you were knowledgeable about this comic, and obviously could see and read the comics instead of resorting to petulant demands for justification by others in the common textbook. It took me little time to find #490 and #285 around where I thought they would be. Perhaps if you had asked what strip rather than sitting on a holy throne going [citation needed] as the meme goes?

    But that's okay, I found the reference for you. You may now belittle it as is the next step in the meme argument path this has taken.

    Your move, Miko
    I'd like to offer some advice: Instead of just saying the comic numbers, say how those comics address what you're talking about. GW is not asking to be shown a text that they've already read, they're asking for you to state your position based off that text. Unless you claim X, and the text says exactly "X," then you need to formulate an argument that asserts what your statements. Actually, even if the text did say exactly, "X," it would be helpful to argue, "according to comic n, X."

    ETA: GreatWyrmGold provides a great example above. He addresses a similar complaint, and he pulls out references, but he states what they say and then explores how it pertains to his argument, instead of just giving a page number to a text.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-04-30 at 02:28 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    Because I thought you were knowledgeable about this comic, and obviously could see and read the comics instead of resorting to petulant demands for justification by others in the common textbook. It took me little time to find #490 and #285 around where I thought they would be. Perhaps if you had asked what strip rather than sitting on a holy throne going [citation needed] as the meme goes?

    But that's okay, I found the reference for you. You may now belittle it as is the next step in the meme argument path this has taken.

    Your move, Miko
    So, two strips that in agree with my position and does not agree with yours or Prinygod's, and two ad hominems, bringing the number of fallacies you have now felt the need to employ up to three.

    Well, I think I have been patient enough with you.

    Good bye.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    "A paladin who ceases to be lawful good...loses all paladin spells and abilities." (PHB, pg 44)
    Thus, Miko's life as a paladin proves that she must be Lawful Good, or else she wouldn't be a paladin. Since the paladin's oath is so much stricter than alignment, and since the DMG makes it clear alignment isn't fragile enough to be changed by a single act (unlike a code of conduct), it stands to reason that without magical influence over one's psyche, they would stop being a paladin before they stopped being Lawful Good.
    If a single evil act were enough to change characters' alignments, Elan and Durkon would be the only Good members of the party...and maybe not even them, if we're not allowing "I didn't realize I was doing something wrong" as an acceptable defence.
    A paladin that sits in a room for most of their life doesn't fall. Refraining from doing Evil is not the same as devoting your life to Good. Specifically, it was claimed (not by you) that "the rest of her life as a paladin is a good case of why she is good". I disagree. What little we see of her life as a Paladin does not make a good case of why she is good. As plenty of others have pointed out, she must have been Good despite what we saw of her life as a Paladin, not because of it, until her self-justified actions as a Paladin finally brought her over the line.

    In short, she was Good despite her tendency to think that being a Paladin made her Good, not because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Roy has never shown an interest in good for good's sake.
    As per Roy's Deva: "you regularly battle the forces of Evil without expecting compensation". That, according to the comic, counts as Roy being a Good man, i.e. interest in doing Good for good's sake.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-04-30 at 02:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'd like to offer some advice: Instead of just saying the comic numbers, say how those comics address what you're talking about.
    That's easy, I don't know enough about any special codes here on the forum to reference the comic instead of the link which I wasn't sure was acceptable. (Plus, I did enough work for those who wanted citations for someone else's post, so didn't include any argument. :) )
    Last edited by Cinnibar; 2019-04-30 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    Read the comic rather than demand us do the research for you both?
    I've read the comic thoroughly and repeatedly. When I say [citation needed], it's because the ideas you are stating are nowhere present in the text.

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Yeah. Like the idea that Roy isn't good, when his Deva Reviewer explicitly states that he has repeatedly done good acts without thought of compensation or reward.

    As towards Miko, I'd have to check which commentary page in W&XPs has the exact citation, but Rich also bluntly stated that Miko had been pushing the very limits of the LG alignment for a long time. My take on that is that her falling was a matter of when, not if.

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Better still: you don't shift the burden of proof.

    Grey Wolf
    I'm am not the one saying she is not good. You are, the fact you had to dismiss me with an ad hoc attack, despite the you having the burden, Shows the weakness of your argument.

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    So, two strips that in agree with my position and does not agree with yours or Prinygod's, and two ad hominems, bringing the number of fallacies you have now felt the need to employ up to three.

    Well, I think I have been patient enough with you.

    Good bye.



    A paladin that sits in a room for most of their life doesn't fall. Refraining from doing Evil is not the same as devoting your life to Good. Specifically, it was claimed (not by you) that "the rest of her life as a paladin is a good case of why she is good". I disagree. What little we see of her life as a Paladin does not make a good case of why she is good. As plenty of others have pointed out, she must have been Good despite what we saw of her life as a Paladin, not because of it, until her self-justified actions as a Paladin finally brought her over the line.

    In short, she was Good despite her tendency to think that being a Paladin made her Good, not because of it.


    As per Roy's Deva: "you regularly battle the forces of Evil without expecting compensation". That, according to the comic, counts as Roy being a Good man, i.e. interest in doing Good for good's sake.

    Grey Wolf
    Wow I only had time to respond to Grey's first response and he already rq. NP take care

    Edit*

    Oh and

    "A paladin that sits in a room for most of their life doesn't fall. "

    citation needed
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-04-30 at 04:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    This, so much. Miko's actions before killing Shojo were obviously not enough to make her non-LG (since if she went LN before that, she'd lose her paladin status), so she must have been LG up until that point, and I don't think killing one helpless old man out of misguided self-righteousness is enough to change your alignment in one fell swoop. If Miko had lived longer, she'd probably fall far enough to settle comfortably into LN territory, but she didn't.
    The D&D rules make it clear that alignment changes do not come from one individual incident, and nothing in OotS has suggested otherwise.
    Beyond how flagrantly Evil I find killing a defenseless old man to be: The Deva explicitly tells Roy that if he hadn't gone back for Elan, his file would have gone straight to True Neutral. That's an explicit in-comic example of alignment change from one individual incident, so your post is factually incorrect. Now, what do you think would have happened to Roy's alignment if instead of abandoning Elan, he had just straight-up murdered him?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Roy has never shown an interest in good for good's sake. He's shown an interest in beating Xykon for revenge, and beating Xykon to save the world, and beating Hel to save the world and Durkon, etc etc, which are all good things...but that's different than dedicating your life to the pursuit of Good.
    Some would say that's just semantics. Others would say that's literally the whole difference between a paladin and a nice cleric/fighter.
    Beyond what Grey Wolf pointed out about the Deva's assessment of Roy, I think we have numerous examples of Roy-- world-saving included-- doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, and that describing him as someone who "has never shown an interest in good for good's sake" is grossly a fundamental misreading of his character.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    The thing is we ALSO have a lot of strips with Miko TRYING to do what's best.

    For celestia that's what is important, as the deva says.

    The question is how much do you think Miko was "trying"?
    How much worth is that "trying"?
    Was that to the best of HER abilities?
    I find that tough to say, honestly.
    She seemed to be intelligent in the early strips she appeared in - and later she seemed irrational at times.
    So how intelligent was she?

    The whole question with her murdering Shojo is:
    From her perspective, with her intellect, how plausible was the idea she had about what happened?

    Always remember, it's easy for us to know that Roy&Co want to save the world.
    But Miko doesn't.
    She sees Belkar, she sees Shojo who fakes senility, etc etc....

    I personally wouldn't let her off the hook, but I am a human. I can only guess, and judge her like a human. But I would expect a deva to be able to look deeper, and KNOW whether Miko was well-intentioned or not, and judge her fairly according to that.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2019-04-30 at 05:22 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Roy was verging on Neutral through most of NCFTPB (which was what made that book a good place to contrast him with Miko, a Lawful Good but non-nice paladin), as he was pursuing his own objectives - get his sword repaired, destroy Xykon to fulfill his fatherís blood oath (and show up his father), hit on Miko - and stringing along the whole Order to help him with them. Haley explicitly calls him on it in strip #212.

    He improves over the course of the book, to the point where he chooses to fight Xykon because Xykon is a threat to other people (#293) and tears up the teamís contracts and gives them the free choice as to whether they want to participate (#294).

    If heíd continued as he was for most of NCFTPB, his actions would have been predominantly True Neutral, because heíd have been fighting Xykon for his own personal reasons and not for the sake of protecting others.

    From War & XP onwards, heís behaved in a consistently Good and inconsistently Lawful manner, as the Deva observed.
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2019-04-30 at 05:25 PM.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    The thing is we ALSO have a lot of strips with Miko TRYING to do what's best.

    For celestia that's what is important, as the deva says.

    The question is how much do you think Miko was "trying"?
    How much worth is that "trying"?
    Was that to the best of HER abilities?
    I find that tough to say, honestly.
    She seemed to be intelligent in the early strips she appeared in - and later she seemed irrational at times.
    So how intelligent was she?

    The whole question with her murdering Shojo is:
    From her perspective, with her intellect, how plausible was the idea she had about what happened?

    Always remember, it's easy for us to know that Roy&Co want to save the world.
    But Miko doesn't.
    She sees Belkar, she sees Shojo who fakes senility, etc etc....

    I personally wouldn't let her off the hook, but I am a human. I can only guess, and judge her like a human. But I would expect a deva to be able to look deeper, and KNOW whether Miko was well-intentioned or not, and judge her fairly according to that.
    Setting aside some of the individual details here (I don't think Miko's conclusions that led her to murdering Shojo were plausible, given that even if she was right about Shojo and the Order, there were better ways of handling the situation; see Hinjo's reaction), let's examine what the Deva says to Roy:

    "What matters is that when you blow it, you get back up on your horse and try again."

    Miko does not do this. When she blows it-- and gets a literal sign from the heavens that she screwed up-- she doubles down that she is right, and that the universe is just trying to steer her to her pre-determined conclusions. Soon tells her as much in her death scene.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnibar View Post
    Because I thought you were knowledgeable about this comic, and obviously could see and read the comics instead of resorting to petulant demands for justification by others in the common textbook. It took me little time to find #490 and #285 around where I thought they would be. Perhaps if you had asked what strip rather than sitting on a holy throne going [citation needed] as the meme goes?

    But that's okay, I found the reference for you. You may now belittle it as is the next step in the meme argument path this has taken.

    Your move, Miko
    Aside from the brittle ad hominem: How do either of these strips show that "the entire sequence" of her murdering Shojo and doubling down on the reasoning that led her there "was basically, at most, a blip on the Deva's notes"?

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