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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Yes, she in fact, did. In that same strip that was linked with Sabine trying to recruit her, Miko denies being a fallen paladin when Sabine asks.
    Yeah to people who were taunting her, right after the event.

    "Miko: Really? Does that mean I get to be a paladin again? "

    Clearly she knew she was no longer a Paladin before her death.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    Yeah to people who were taunting her, right after the event.

    "Miko: Really? Does that mean I get to be a paladin again? "

    Clearly she knew she was no longer a Paladin before her death.
    My theory is that while she couldn't seriously deny that she had fallen and that "No" to Sabine was probably a knee-jerk reaction, she only accepted her fall here, when she could rationalize it as part of the gods' plan to make sure she, Miko Miyazaki, would be alive to shatter the gate and save the day. "It all makes sense now" indeed.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    I am not so sure. Definitely during her final strips she would defer to B
    Which is the point of her arc, exactly.

    The fact that she found out her mentor to be lying to her for years and then getting stripped of her powers by her gods shortly afterwards traumatized her.

    She clearly took the worst possible direction, no question.

    That doesn't change the idea that BEFORE that she ACTIVELY seeked answers from her superiors (which were only the gods becausd Shojo was senile).

    Honestly the way she kneels down and prays (first in the circle of candles and later in prison) does NOT suggest that she would decline an explanation if it actually CAME from the gods.


    Consider the scene when she decides to shatter the gate:
    With the information she has at hand, she deducts that all the setup before, including her fall, whas carefully orchestrated by the gods so that she is there at the right time and place to be able to destroy the gate.

    To US this seems AWFULLY contrived and boardering on lunatic.
    But she lives in a world where such is POSSIBLE, where gods ARE real and verifyably so.

    Simply compare with the recent strips with Thor and Odin. THOR ( a god aka someone who should know what gods can do and can't do) assumes that Odin had a similarily contrived setup in mind when he sent the prophecy that caused Durkon's exile.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    Yeah to people who were taunting her, right after the event.

    "Miko: Really? Does that mean I get to be a paladin again? "

    Clearly she knew she was no longer a Paladin before her death.
    Yeah, that's a fair point. Miko vacillates between denial and acceptance, but there was at least some capacity for reality penetration, even at the end.

    The broader problem is that I just don't give the later segments of her story much credence given how steeped in general moral double-standards, angry projection and occasional sexist bigotry her initial reception was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    To US this seems AWFULLY contrived and boardering on lunatic.
    But she lives in a world where such is POSSIBLE, where gods ARE real and verifyably so.

    Simply compare with the recent strips with Thor and Odin. THOR ( a god aka someone who should know what gods can do and can't do) assumes that Odin had a similarily contrived setup in mind when he sent the prophecy that caused Durkon's exile.
    Also, this. I'm not gonna say that Miko's later-story behaviour is especially likeable or justified, but it's a little mean to frame Miko as some crazy fanatic when she inhabits an insane universe.
    Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2019-05-02 at 05:49 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Consider the scene when she decides to shatter the gate:
    With the information she has at hand, she deducts that all the setup before, including her fall, whas carefully orchestrated by the gods so that she is there at the right time and place to be able to destroy the gate.

    To US this seems AWFULLY contrived and boardering on lunatic.
    But she lives in a world where such is POSSIBLE, where gods ARE real and verifyably so.

    Simply compare with the recent strips with Thor and Odin. THOR ( a god aka someone who should know what gods can do and can't do) assumes that Odin had a similarily contrived setup in mind when he sent the prophecy that caused Durkon's exile.
    I don't think this is very convincing. Yes, some of the gods could perhaps orchestrate such things (note that Odin is intrinsically linked to prophecy and foresight, though, so that he could do something like this doesn't automatically mean other gods could do it too). There is still no indication that this is something that happens with any frequency (or even that it has happened at all in the world Miko inhabits). Some people do or have become kings and emperors and popes in our world, but it would still be lunacy for me to fervently believe that I will too.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2019-05-02 at 05:58 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I don't think this is very convincing. Yes, some of the gods could perhaps orchestrate such things (note that Odin is intrinsically linked to prophecy and foresight, though, so that he could do something like this doesn't automatically mean other gods could do it too). There is still no indication that this is something that happens with any frequency (or even that it has happened at all in the world Miko inhabits).
    There is a scene where the Azurite resistance leaders gather and are unified by Mr. Scruffy's appearance next to Thanh being some kind of divine omen, so there's some suggestion that this behaviour isn't unusual by Azurite standards.

    In any case, what verifiably does happen in OOTSverse is that the Gods are capable of proactively communicating with their followers and previously gave the Guard official permission for crusades against the Bearer. Which raises oodles of questions about why they didn't talk to Miko specifically, or the Guard/Azure City more generally about the looming threat of hobgoblin invasion.
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Has this thread just become a discussion of Miko's alignment?
    What of the other characters?
    Also who finds it odd that Durkon (Lawful Good) ends ip on ysgard (a chaotic good afterlife)
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    There is a scene where the Azurite resistance leaders gather and are unified by Mr. Scruffy's appearance next to Thanh being some kind of divine omen, so there's some suggestion that this behaviour isn't unusual by Azurite standards.
    That suggests Azurites are prone to interpret things as divine signs, not that divine signs are necessarily common. We also see Durkon wrongly interpreting Thor's random drunken shenanigans as an omen.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Has this thread just become a discussion of Miko's alignment?
    What of the other characters?
    Also who finds it odd that Durkon (Lawful Good) ends ip on ysgard (a chaotic good afterlife)
    You are forgetting that as a follower of Thor, Durkon goes to which ever plain Thor resides.
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-05-02 at 06:14 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    That suggests Azurites are prone to interpret things as divine signs, not that divine signs are necessarily common. We also see Durkon wrongly interpreting Thor's random drunken shenanigans as an omen.
    Okay, fine, but to the extent that Miko is wrong about this, she's wrong in a way that's apparently fairly commonplace by the standards of the setting. So this idea that Miko hunting for divine signs- which is in any case only barely visible in her early appearances- was telegraphing some later descent into madness and evil is a bit unfair, to my mind.

    And even Miko's belief that the Twelve have some special plan and chosen role for her, personally, is actually pretty reasonable given the Gods' general ability to liaise with followers demonstrated in the later storyline and an implied history of doing so with the Guard in particular. She actually was the logical choice for Champion of the Twelve, personality flaws notwithstanding, and to the extent that those flaws were extant it was within the Twelve's power to either tell her to take it down a notch or suggest someone else get promoted.

    Basically, Miko is the kind of character who can only exist in a universe where the Gods don't talk to their followers, and OOTSverse hasn't been that universe for quite some time now.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    You are forgetting that as a follower of Thor, Durkon goes to which ever plain Thor resides.
    I am just saying he might be alittle uncomfortable with all the chaotic types around him and vice versa.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I don't think this is very convincing. Yes, some of the gods could perhaps orchestrate such things (note that Odin is intrinsically linked to prophecy and foresight, though, so that he could do something like this doesn't automatically mean other gods could do it too). There is still no indication that this is something that happens with any frequency (or even that it has happened at all in the world Miko inhabits). Some people do or have become kings and emperors and popes in our world, but it would still be lunacy for me to fervently believe that I will too.
    If you WERE the highest ranked cardinal you would be lunatic NOT taking the possibility into account.
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    She trusts the gods, Shojo and herself - until she is betrayed and breaks down.
    No one betrayed her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    I am just saying he might be alittle uncomfortable with all the chaotic types around him and vice versa.
    I could be wrong, but think God's have their own Demi-plane inside their resident plane, at least as a general rule. If so, he would be surrounded by Thor followers, including other LG Thor followers. Also I think if durkon had a problem with chaotic good, he would have picked another god. He chose to whorship Thor after all, who is also chaotic good.
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-05-02 at 08:10 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Okay, fine, but to the extent that Miko is wrong about this, she's wrong in a way that's apparently fairly commonplace by the standards of the setting. So this idea that Miko hunting for divine signs- which is in any case only barely visible in her early appearances- was telegraphing some later descent into madness and evil is a bit unfair, to my mind.
    I'd say there's a huge difference between believing in omens in general, and believing in omens that express your greatness specifically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    If you WERE the highest ranked cardinal you would be lunatic NOT taking the possibility into account.
    No, this doesn't work. High-ranked cardinals are elected popes all the time, it's the way it works and this is immediately verifiable. There's no indication that divine omens and/or orchestration are comparably common.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2019-05-02 at 08:26 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    A test is not the same as "These are clearly Fiends masquerading as the Twelve Gods to deceive me!"
    You're right, which is why I left room for other excuses, such as "This is just a test!" I even almost included that in my original post, but since Miko herself uses that excuse in-comic I went with a different example (the "deceiving fiends" one).

    Because make no mistake: Miko is making excuses. As others have pointed out, the "sign from the Gods" she was looking for was the fact she Fell. Miki doesn't want to believe that, though, so she grasps at any straw she can to justify her behavior.

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No one betrayed her.

    Grey Wolf
    Her mentor faked senility instead of, you know, mentoring her adequately.
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  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Her mentor faked senility instead of, you know, mentoring her adequately.
    That you think that is an relevant statement says much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    @GWc: Much but none we will hear, I presume?

    ....

    Ok then.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I'd say there's a huge difference between believing in omens in general, and believing in omens that express your greatness specifically.

    No, this doesn't work. High-ranked cardinals are elected popes all the time, it's the way it works and this is immediately verifiable. There's no indication that divine omens and/or orchestration are comparably common.
    Look, you brought up the example of OUR world which doesn't have MAGIC and tried to make a point about the OotS world which DOES.

    So maybe the take home is that some ideas just don't translate well in either direction, I would think.
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  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Her mentor faked senility instead of, you know, mentoring her adequately.

    I think a lot of people forget that Shojo hasn't been faking senility the entire time: Comic #289 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) notes that Shojo's senility ruse began only a few years ago. Presumably he could have been mentoring her "adequately" up until then (though that's obviously speculation).

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    @GWc: Much but none we will hear, I presume?

    ....

    Ok then.
    Oh, you need me to make it even more obvious? That latest assertion of yours is not indicative of betrayal.

    Not to mention you also accused the gods of betraying her. Which they also didn't do.

    Not to mention she was an adult. The mentoring was over.

    Not to mention you keep using words to mean things they do not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Look, you brought up the example of OUR world which doesn't have MAGIC and tried to make a point about the OotS world which DOES.

    So maybe the take home is that some ideas just don't translate well in either direction, I would think.
    The simple point is that assuming and expecting things that are extremely improbable in a given universe just because you have too high a concept of yourself is lunacy, and that something being theoretically possible is no basis for fervent belief. This isn't complicated. Nothing to do with magic or lack thereof.
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Spoiler: Argument Advice and Analysis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    Well considering that it was murdering him was the reason she fell, and not when she attacked Hinjo, I would say that it was the most important reason for her fall. You A and B lack any understanding of the events unfolding. 1st Hinjo did not offer her a chance to defend the city, but a cell. 2nd she never denied that she fell, only that they we're testing her, or she was tricked. I say this not to excuse her actions, btw.
    Look. I agree with what I'm pretty sure your point is, but you're going about it all wrong. The core question here is "Why did Miko fall?" The Aboleth thinks that Miko's beliefs are what made her fall, and provides a hypothetical example to prove those beliefs. I'm...not entirely sure what you're trying to do, but it doesn't seem to be working.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    One: linking to another post by yourself as evidence, doesn't really count as evidence.
    Speaking as someone who has linked to stuff he's previously said on various subjects, and even bookmarked a few things I've said so I can link to them as needed, it's less "this is evidence" and more "this is my argument, don't make me type it again".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    These conversations generally exhaust me, but I am profoundly unclear about what was 'good by technicality' about entering a burning building to rescue the helpless, rather than, say, chasing after a pair of plausibly-evil assassins. Which, by, the way, wound up saving the life of an otherwise defenceless monarch.

    There's no objective way to evaluate what Miko's alignment would have been at the time of death, but it's certainly conceivable that fifteen years of otherwise upstanding paladin conduct would count in her favour. And Roy's evaluation in strip #251 is essentially complete garbage.
    Yeah...I think people are letting their final judgements of the characters in question get out of hand. In the end (ie, after character development and whatnot), the Order proves heroic; in the end (ie, after a combination of the Order's actions and Shojo's deceit becoming harder and harder to conceal), Miko proves unheroic. Also, the OotS (as protagonists) are generally viewed more favorably than Miko (an antagonist even at her most heroic). Therefore, people view the OotS's actions through a heroic lens and Miko's actions through an unheroic lens.
    It's important to identify such biases and account for them. It's also important to focus on what we're talking about. When Miko helps people, she's abrasive to even her teammates; when the Order helps people, they average out at being more polite (even with Belkar and pre-character-development Roy dragging down the average). Miko, Durkon, and Roy are equally Lawful Good, but the Order (Belkar and sometimes V excepted) are more righteous than Miko.


    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I mean, seriously: pre-dragging-the-Order-in-chains-to-Azure-City Miko is almost radically different from post-dragging-the-Order-in-chains-to-Azure-City. Pre-Miko was just scowling and grumpy the whole time, but willing to help at those in need. Post-Miko is also willing to do so -- reassuring soldiers she'll have farmers bring them rice -- but suddenly fixates on the Order as her worst enemy. Has she never captured prisoners before?
    None who frustrated her quite as much, who were so clearly suspicious and guilty (because,to be fair, they 100% did what they were accused of, and Belkar was 100% a murderous a-hole rivaling Xykon save in power and focus) and yet went free in the end—and they even had Lord Shojo's favor! Also, two of them were Elan and Belkar; that alone could drive a weaker-willed warrior into a murderous frenzy.
    I can easily see that sort of stress, both mundane ("I'm an adventurer!" "Stop repressing my culture, you ethnocentric b*ch!") and existential ("What is my long-trusted Lord Shojo up to?")
    That sort of stress, especially the "What if something I trusted my whole life is wrong?" kind, is plenty to change a person—or at least, to open them to change. Durkon* would probably say that this was Miko's true character revealing itself, but I'm inclined to say that it was her true character having to recontextualize itself in a world different than what she previously believed it to be. If murderers like Belkar were let off the hook for destabilizing the fabric of reality, and if Shojo was collaborating with these a-hole "adventurers" behind the Sapphire Guard's back, who could be trusted? That sounds like exactly the kind of situation where Miko would turn to the one person she knew she could trust, no matter who was secretly betraying the ideals of Azure City.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    You can see 'hints' at Miko's later development in the sense that certain traits became increasingly flanderized, but the problem is that, early on, she really doesn't possess those traits to any greater degree than the rest of the cast does.
    I'm pretty sure that was the point. Miko and Roy were set up as explicit foils—LG, jaded, snarky warriors with more brains than Thog, Belkar, and other more stereotypical warrior-types, who were given quests from distant paternal figures who kinda screwed them up (each in his own way). In the right circumstances, Roy could be the one who went murderously paranoid and Miko could be the one who recognized the direction her life was going and stepped back...but Roy had the perspective or support network or whatever you think was most critical in helping him realized he'd f*ed up, and Miko didn't. Or maybe just the opposite ways that Shojo and Eugene effed up. Speaking of which...


    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    I think a lot of people forget that Shojo hasn't been faking senility the entire time: Comic #289 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0289.html) notes that Shojo's senility ruse began only a few years ago. Presumably he could have been mentoring her "adequately" up until then (though that's obviously speculation).
    The Giant has stated that Shojo's mentorship is what planted the seed of "I am the chosen one" in Miko's skull. "Adequate" is about the nicest you could call it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Why not? That's what she says.
    What she says is "If you had done X, I would do Y." As a parallel example: "If you had quoted Ayn Rand, I would call you a moron." That's hardly fair...unless there were other circumstances where quoting Ayn Rand would be the last straw, e.g. if they had already been constructing an argument which was already deeply flawed and inconsistent with Rand's beliefs. (It's the first non-Godwin's-Law example that came to mind, if you insist I can think of a better one.)

    And she apparently feels no need to question any of those explanations further, weak or not. (I also think the case of "accepting gifts intended for a king" is not as severe an offense as abandoning Elan; I can't say for sure if OOTS-world believes this, but a crime of property is not as severe a crime against life ("respect for the dignity of sentient beings", etc.)
    I'm not saying that "accepting

    I mean, again, she says it was enough to chuck him into TN, so I don't know why you're coming up with explanations that contradict what she said.
    Again, that's not what she said. Her exact words were "[I]f you hadn't gone back...I would be chucking your file in the True Neutral bin right now." You can interpret that as "This is literally the only reason you might be chucked into TN," but that seems inconsistent with being concerned about things beyond that one incident. It seems more consistent to interpret that as "This, combined with the rest of your record, would be enough to make me decide to throw you in TN."

    I mean, what's the difference between "doing the right thing, as per the values that are considered Good" and "doing the right thing to support the cause of Good"?
    I already told you, motivation. One is motivated by Good itself, the other is motivated by something else but still does good. I'm running out of ways to restate that, could you try explaining your confusion a bit more deeply?
    Last edited by GreatWyrmGold; 2019-05-02 at 11:04 AM.
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    [QUOTE=GreatWyrmGold;23883143]
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    Look. I agree with what I'm pretty sure your point is, but you're going about it all wrong. The core question here is "Why did Miko fall?" The Aboleth thinks that Miko's beliefs are what made her fall, and provides a hypothetical example to prove those beliefs. I'm...not entirely sure what you're trying to do, but it doesn't seem to be working.



    Speaking as someone who has linked to stuff he's previously said on various subjects, and even bookmarked a few things I've said so I can link to them as needed, it's less "this is evidence" and more "this is my argument, don't make me type it again".


    I'll admit that rereading that I missed that he was talking about the 12 warning her before the fall. But I still disagree with his method.

    There is no correlation between his examples and the fall. First that his examples are not supported by the comic as he insists. It would be as I said hypothetically she fell because a time wizard casted insanity on her, he just hasn't show up in the comic yet. You cannot use a hypothtical to prove a theory.

    The fact you booked marked suff he said in the past is unrelated to this discussion and says more about you than him, not meaning disrespect
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-05-02 at 11:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post

    There is no correlation between his examples and the fall. First that his examples are not supported by the comic as he insists. It would be as I said hypothetically she fell because a time wizard casted insanity on her, he just hasn't show up in the comic yet. You cannot use a hypothtical to prove a theory.
    First: They are not examples, they are hypotheticals.

    Second, I have asked you to explain how the conclusions I drew from my hypotheticals are "not supported by the comic." You have yet to answer. If you're not going to, then kindly refrain from referencing me in any further discussions and I will do the same for you.

    Third: Your time wizard hypothetical is actually the one that has zero basis in the comic. We don't see a time wizard, and Miko is not insane. She does, however, continually display poor judgment and a knack for jumping to conclusions to validate said poor judgment. THAT is the basis for my argument; I'm not throwing random stuff like time wizards out there, I am proposing a hypothetical based on Miko's in-comic behavior to come to the conclusion that "Even if the Twelve Gods showed up BEFORE her Fall to try and reason with her, she likely would have dismissed them and come up with some other excuse so she could convince herself she was right." Lending support to that conclusion is she essentially does that very thing AFTER her Fall despite the fact that THE TWELVE GODS THEMSELVES appeared to deliver her Fall to her. When confronted with this, she does not go "Perhaps I have messed up," but instead goes (paraphrased), "The Twelve are clearly testing me."

    I am tired of repeating myself, so I'll ask one final time: How, exactly, are the things I just typed "not supported by the comic?"
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-05-02 at 12:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    First: They are not examples, they are hypotheticals.

    Second, I have asked you to explain how the conclusions I drew from my hypotheticals are "not supported by the comic." You have yet to answer. If you're not going to, then kindly refrain from referencing me in any further discussions and I will do the same for you.

    Third: Your time wizard hypothetical is actually the one that has zero basis in the comic. We don't see a time wizard, and Miko is not insane. She does, however, continually display poor judgment and a knack for jumping to conclusions to validate said poor judgment. THAT is the basis for my argument; I'm not throwing random stuff like time wizards out there, I am proposing a hypothetical based on Miko's in-comic behavior to come to the conclusion that "Even if the Twelve Gods showed up BEFORE her Fall to try and reason with her, she likely would have dismissed them and come up with some other excuse so she could convince herself she was right." Lending support to that conclusion is she essentially does that very thing AFTER her Fall despite the fact that THE TWELVE GODS THEMSELVES appeared to deliver her Fall to her. When confronted with this, she does not go "Perhaps I have messed up," but instead goes (paraphrased), "The Twelve are clearly testing me."

    I am tired of repeating myself, so I'll ask one final time: How, exactly, are the things I just typed "not supported by the comic?"
    Why would I have to disprove your hypothtical? It didn't happen. If you are so convinced that not even the God's could disuade miko from her path, why not show in comic examples instead of inventing them. Otherwise it is not supported by the comic.

    And before you try to use it, taking away her powers only showed that they did not want her to kill Shojo at best. It gave no what she should do after the deed was done.
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-05-02 at 12:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I already told you, motivation. One is motivated by Good itself, the other is motivated by something else but still does good. I'm running out of ways to restate that, could you try explaining your confusion a bit more deeply?
    I think what you are calling "motivations other than the cause of Good" are things that are, in fact, baked into the definition of what capital-G Good is.

    More later, I hope-- busy day but I wanted to clarify that while I could.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    I'll admit that rereading that I missed that he was talking about the 12 warning her before the fall. But I still disagree with his method.

    There is no correlation between his examples and the fall. First that his examples are not supported by the comic as he insists. It would be as I said hypothetically she fell because a time wizard casted insanity on her, he just hasn't show up in the comic yet. You cannot use a hypothtical to prove a theory.
    First, I'd like to repeat that I agree with what I'm pretty sure your point was.
    Second, you're still failing to understand his point. He was saying that Miko's character would lead to her rejecting everything the Twelve Gods could say in favor of what she already "knew" they were saying. (My copy of Small Gods is staring at me for some reason...) That hypothetical wasn't meant as evidence, but as a statement of his belief and explanation of why it was the reason Miko fell, rather than any specific action.
    Third, your argument against that point is still flawed. You got snarled up in the details rather than refuting anything relevant to his point...say, by pointing out that Miko's self-centered attitude was present well before her actual Fall and was at most a secondary factor in her decision to murder Shojo (as opposed to her rampant paranoia and passionate desire to slay evildoers). If Miko's de facto authotheism was the reason for her Fall, why didn't she Fall until well after that attitude set in, instead falling when she did a singularly dishonorable act (the first directly dishonorable act we're aware of her performing) which can be equally-attributed to a variety of Miko's flaws?

    The fact you booked marked suff he said in the past is unrelated to this discussion and says more about you than him, not meaning disrespect
    You misunderstand me as well. I haven't bookmarked stuff Lacuna said in the past; I've bookmarked stuff I've said in the past, so I can link it to other people, just as Lacuna Caster did.
    Lacuna wasn't linking their old argument as an argument from authority, but as an argument. You seem to have dismissed it as an argument from authority, without examining the argument itself. That's the flaw I was trying to point out and encourage you to correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I think what you are calling "motivations other than the cause of Good" are things that are, in fact, baked into the definition of what capital-G Good is.

    More later, I hope-- busy day but I wanted to clarify that while I could.
    I would say actively seeking out good things to do, oppose to doing good when the opportunity presents itself. Paladin's take an oath to do good not just when it's convenient, but when it's inconvenient. An example is partying with some one who commits evil but is otherwise useful to your cause.
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-05-02 at 12:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    Why would I have to disprove your hypothtical? It didn't happen. If you are so convinced that not even the God's could disuade miko from her path, why not show in comic examples instead of inventing them. Otherwise it is not supported by the comic.

    And before you try to use it, taking away her powers only showed that they did not want her to kill Shojo at best. It gave no what she should do after the deed was done.
    If you really don't feel like the strips in which the Twelve Gods appear before everyone, zap Miko with a bolt of lightning that causes her to Fall, and her response being "They must be testing me" isn't in-comic evidence to support my claims about what Miko might have done in a scenario in which the Twelve Gods appear and try to tell her she's wrong, then you and I have very different interpretations of what "in-comic evidence" (or examples) means.

    EDIT TO AVOID POSSIBLE DOUBLE-POST:
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    First, I'd like to repeat that I agree with what I'm pretty sure your point was.
    Second, you're still failing to understand his point. He was saying that Miko's character would lead to her rejecting everything the Twelve Gods could say in favor of what she already "knew" they were saying. (My copy of Small Gods is staring at me for some reason...) That hypothetical wasn't meant as evidence, but as a statement of his belief and explanation of why it was the reason Miko fell, rather than any specific action.
    Third, your argument against that point is still flawed. You got snarled up in the details rather than refuting anything relevant to his point...say, by pointing out that Miko's self-centered attitude was present well before her actual Fall and was at most a secondary factor in her decision to murder Shojo (as opposed to her rampant paranoia and passionate desire to slay evildoers). If Miko's de facto authotheism was the reason for her Fall, why didn't she Fall until well after that attitude set in, instead falling when she did a singularly dishonorable act (the first directly dishonorable act we're aware of her performing) which can be equally-attributed to a variety of Miko's flaws?
    GWG gets it. To these arguments, I would respond that Miko's attitude is possibly (not certainly) what Rich meant when he said she had been "pushing the boundaries of Lawful Good" for some time. The murder of Shojo is what pushes her over the edge and forces the Twelves' hands (paws? Limbs?), but it's my belief that when you boil it down to its simplest form, it was ultimately Miko's poor judgment and inability to conceive she might be wrong that led to her Fall.
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-05-02 at 01:00 PM.

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