Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

[Prinygod]

You misunderstand me as well. I haven't bookmarked stuff Lacuna said in the past; I've bookmarked stuff I've said in the past, so I can link it to other people, just as Lacuna Caster did.
Lacuna wasn't linking their old argument as an argument from authority, but as an argument. You seem to have dismissed it as an argument from authority, without examining the argument itself. That's the flaw I was trying to point out and encourage you to correct.[/QUOTE]

You edited your post, there was no reference to lucuna and I had never mentioned them. At the time you must have misstaken directed it at me.

Edit I messed up this quote and don't have time to fix it ATM sorry.

[Ruck]

I would say actively seeking out good things to do, oppose to doing good when the opportunity presents itself. Paladin's take an oath to do good not just when it's convenient, but when it's inconvenient. An example is partying with some one who commits evil but is otherwise useful to your cause.

That's not really what the conversation GWG and I were having is about though. It's more like, what's the difference between "acting to advance the cause of Good" and "acting to protect the innocent, see justice done, and preserve the dignity of living beings"?

[Lacuna Caster]

Yeah...I think people are letting their final judgements of the characters in question get out of hand. In the end (ie, after character development and whatnot), the Order proves heroic; in the end (ie, after a combination of the Order's actions and Shojo's deceit becoming harder and harder to conceal), Miko proves unheroic. Also, the OotS (as protagonists) are generally viewed more favorably than Miko (an antagonist even at her most heroic). Therefore, people view the OotS's actions through a heroic lens and Miko's actions through an unheroic lens...

...That sort of stress, especially the "What if something I trusted my whole life is wrong?" kind, is plenty to change a person—or at least, to open them to change. Durkon* would probably say that this was Miko's true character revealing itself, but I'm inclined to say that it was her true character having to recontextualize itself in a world different than what she previously believed it to be. If murderers like Belkar were let off the hook for destabilizing the fabric of reality, and if Shojo was collaborating with these a-hole "adventurers" behind the Sapphire Guard's back, who could be trusted? That sounds like exactly the kind of situation where Miko would turn to the one person she knew she could trust, no matter who was secretly betraying the ideals of Azure City...

...I'm pretty sure that was the point. Miko and Roy were set up as explicit foils—LG, jaded, snarky warriors with more brains than Thog, Belkar, and other more stereotypical warrior-types, who were given quests from distant paternal figures who kinda screwed them up (each in his own way). In the right circumstances, Roy could be the one who went murderously paranoid and Miko could be the one who recognized the direction her life was going and stepped back...but Roy had the perspective or support network or whatever you think was most critical in helping him realized he'd f*ed up, and Miko didn't. Or maybe just the opposite ways that Shojo and Eugene effed up...

...The Giant has stated that Shojo's mentorship is what planted the seed of "I am the chosen one" in Miko's skull. "Adequate" is about the nicest you could call it.

I think the sequence of Miko's development doesn't hinge entirely on Shojo's revealed duplicity (though that was a legitimately baffling sequence of decisions on Shojo's part.) The critical moment for Miko, really, is when she's apparently willing to cut down five non-evil people (including Durkon) in the throne room in order to execute Belkar, which I think would have been an evil act had Shojo not intervened. And her willingness to do this is based entirely on the antagonism between her and Belkar built up over the prior... 30 minutes or so?... of cat and mouse antics, well before any collusion between Shojo and the Order is established.

I would have to say that I would not expect Roy to turn into a murderous paranoid zealot under analogous circumstances, but this also stuck out to me as an 'I was not expecting that' moment for Miko at the time. I'm also not crazy about the whole "Shojo was the tape holding her together" explanation, given that (A) parents don't usually matter that much in reality, and (B) this contradicts the ostensible influence of Gin-Jun persisting long after his own death.

(Also, what's much worse than Shojo giving Miko fancy ideas about her future importance was sending her off on long solo missions in foreign territories without adequate intelligence, communications or backup. That's, um, actively life-threatening.)

It's important to identify such biases and account for them. It's also important to focus on what we're talking about. When Miko helps people, she's abrasive to even her teammates; when the Order helps people, they average out at being more polite (even with Belkar and pre-character-development Roy dragging down the average). Miko, Durkon, and Roy are equally Lawful Good, but the Order (Belkar and sometimes V excepted) are more righteous than Miko.

To be honest, I'm not sure that anyone beside Durkon and Elan initially qualified as less abrasive on the average, and most of her criticisms of the Order were at least adjacent to being justified. (Like... V was completely in the wrong when he fabricated that roaming charge for services rendered and tried to assault her in the process, that's not even a point of contention by now.)

Look, you brought up the example of OUR world which doesn't have MAGIC and tried to make a point about the OotS world which DOES.

I'd say there's a huge difference between believing in omens in general, and believing in omens that express your greatness specifically.

Sure, but Miko's superstition initially just manifests as a belief that the OOTS' loosing their treasure was karma catching up to them (it's actually Roy who thinks that the universe owed them some recognition of greatness.) And to be fair, OOTSverse is a place where narrative tropes have real power and Gods-empowered oracles pronounce on the fate of heroes all the time. I don't see that there's a million miles between Elan's constant expectations of "X will cause Y, because I am a PC protagonist", and Miko's belief that "W implies Z, because I am the Chosen One." I mean, it's not like the destined champions of the Gods receiving signs, omens and visions hasn't been a fairly common trope in myth and legend.

I'm not personally going to say that Miko hunting for signs and omens as directions from the Gods is a particularly sane or rational thing- my broader point is she could simply get a cleric to cast Commune, or that the Gods could send her a message from their own side, thus obviating this whole question. But it is at least somewhat less irrational in the topsy-turvy world that she inhabits.

[Mightymosy]

The simple point is that assuming and expecting things that are extremely improbable in a given universe just because you have too high a concept of yourself is lunacy, and that something being theoretically possible is no basis for fervent belief. This isn't complicated. Nothing to do with magic or lack thereof.

Alright then, then let's get back to where this came from:

I don't think this is very convincing. Yes, some of the gods could perhaps orchestrate such things (note that Odin is intrinsically linked to prophecy and foresight, though, so that he could do something like this doesn't automatically mean other gods could do it too). There is still no indication that this is something that happens with any frequency (or even that it has happened at all in the world Miko inhabits). Some people do or have become kings and emperors and popes in our world, but it would still be lunacy for me to fervently believe that I will too.

1. Your point is that some people do or have become kings and emperors and popes in our world, but it would still be lunacy for you (or me) to fervently believe we would become one, too.

True, but we are not Miko.
(luckily)

In other words, we are NOT the highest ranked members of a class that has the explicit purpose to enforce divine will on behalf of the gods on the OotS world.
Hence why I said you or I would be NOT a lunatic if one of us WAS a cardinal - someone who really MIGHT become pope at some time.


Suppose you are the Queen on the chess board. Would it really be that lunatic to assume that the chess player has special plans for you?




2. Do such divine orchestrations happen frequently in OotS world? Do omens happen frequently?
We don't know the frequency. But we know that stuff like that happens:
Frequently enough that this was Thor's FIRST assumption (a being so intelligent that he remembers trillions of souls who worshipped him - also sometimes a lunatic himself, to be honest ;-) )
Frequently enough that Miko thinks it possible (ok, THAT one would be circle logic)
Frequently enough the nobles use it to interprete Scruffy as divine will.
Frequently enough that Durkon interpretes the rain (and stopping of the rain) as Thor's divine will (which was WRONG - so Durkon is on the same wrong train as Miko here).


Thinking of all of this, this is exactly the conundrum the comic creates, and what (I believe) Lacuna is so unhappy about.

We see how characters like Miko and Durkon interprete divine will by indirect omens and laugh at how wrong they are, and how stupid that is, because in our real world that would be really stupid.
And it is, in early OotS, portrayed as stupid: in early OotS we read the characters like real world people.
But then, we come to know that the gods are NOT some intangible concept that is purely theoretical and can't influence the world. No, gods in this story are real AND CAN interact with world, in way of their clerics, by direct and concrete information IF THEY CHOOSE TO. (YES, even now that is unclear because with Redcloak it seems different for whatever reason).
And then we read the earlier comics and wonder stuff like "Well, if the gods use the clerics and paladins as pawns, AND they WANT Azure City to remain in play, why don't they tell their pawns what to do??? Not even when they continously ask for guidance?"
In other words, there is some kind of dissonance if one thinks this way (while that deeply disturbs Lacuna, appearantly, for me it's okay because I view early OotS as parody. The reason I post and engage in these discussions is that I feel the need to admit Lacuna where I think he is right, intellectually, if one DOES want to interprete the comic so seriously, and in such deep detail that was probably not intended by the author)

[Jasdoif]

Sure, but Miko's superstition initially just manifests as a belief that the OOTS' loosing their treasure was karma catching up to them (it's actually Roy who thinks that the universe owed them some recognition of greatness.) And to be fair, OOTSverse is a place where narrative tropes have real power and Gods-empowered oracles pronounce on the fate of heroes all the time. I don't see that there's a million miles between Elan's constant expectations of "X will cause Y, because I am a PC protagonist", and Miko's belief that "W implies Z, because I am the Chosen One."

Or Tarquin's insistence that "K means N, because I am the real villain, therefore I J instead of K".

The key difference being what happens when they're surprised: Elan seeing himself in a support role results in him readily rolling with the punches when his expectations aren't met, where Tarquin seeing himself as a driving influence results in him doubling down against the punches when his expectations aren't met. Miko takes the third option, where she looks outside the scope of the surprise to see where the punches are coming from. Which is great for creative problem solving...when the point of contention isn't so core to your identity that "outside" doesn't feel like a meaningful concept.

[Mightymosy]

Or Tarquin's insistence that "K means N, because I am the real villain, therefore I J instead of K".

The key difference being what happens when they're surprised: Elan seeing himself in a support role results in him readily rolling with the punches when his expectations aren't met, where Tarquin seeing himself as a driving influence results in him doubling down against the punches when his expectations aren't met. Miko takes the third option, where she looks outside the scope of the surprise to see where the punches are coming from. Which is great for creative problem solving...when the point of contention isn't so core to your identity that "outside" doesn't feel like a meaningful concept.

You'd think a thread about Eugene and Miko would be improved by adding Tarquin?

Might as well go the full distance and make a comparison with Andi

[GreatWyrmGold]

You edited your post, there was no reference to lucuna and I had never mentioned them. At the time you must have misstaken directed it at me.

I edited my post almost 20 minutes before you posted your thing, and that was just to add an extra reply that I'd missed the first time. (Kinda like The Aboleth did.) And Lacuna is the person Darth Paul originally accused of quoting themself as evidence; I kinda assumed you agreed with him on that point, since you were defending that point.

That's not really what the conversation GWG and I were having is about though. It's more like, what's the difference between "acting to advance the cause of Good" and "acting to protect the innocent, see justice done, and preserve the dignity of living beings"?

Motivation. Are you doing good for Good's sake, or for the good of individuals?
An example: Is a soldier fighting Nazis doing so to protect their homeland, because their family needs the money, or because they think the Nazis are Evil? That's two Good motivations and one that could be construed as Good or Neutral, but only one is really "for Good's sake".
Does that help?

Spoiler: Lacuna Caster

Show

I think the sequence of Miko's development doesn't hinge entirely on Shojo's revealed duplicity (though that was a legitimately baffling sequence of decisions on Shojo's part.) The critical moment for Miko, really, is when she's apparently willing to cut down five non-evil people (including Durkon) in the throne room in order to execute Belkar, which I think would have been an evil act had Shojo not intervened. And her willingness to do this is based entirely on the antagonism between her and Belkar built up over the prior... 30 minutes or so?... of cat and mouse antics, well before any collusion between Shojo and the Order is established.

Wrong on basically all accounts.
1. I don't think Miko's development hinges entirely on any one point, though the reveal of Shojo's duplicity is one of the more important factors that finally pushed her off the edge.
2. You seem to be confusing cause with effect. Miko's increased willingness to attack people is an effect of her negative character development, not a cause.
3. Miko was only ready to murder the OotS members who were actively obstructing her, not all five.
4. If her willingness to murder most of the Order (especially Belkar) had nothing to do with the mutual antagonism they'd built up in the weeks they traveled together, I'll eat...well, might as well say I'll eat the Sun, for how likely I'll have to follow through.
5. Her hatred for Belkar goes further. Aside from those weeks of intentionally antagonizing Miko (the most elaborate example being when he contacted the lawyers to file a class-action lawsuit), Belkar murdered at least one guard in an obvious, deliberate attempt to provoke Miko. It wasn't just the dang cat-and-mouse, Lacuna.
6. Miko thought Shojo was evil for collaborating with the Order, not the other way around. If she thought they were colluding, it wouldn't make her more willing to murder them.

[quote]I would have to say that I would not expect Roy to turn into a murderous paranoid zealot under analogous circumstances, but this also stuck out to me as an 'I was not expecting that' moment for Miko at the time. I'm also not crazy about the whole "Shojo was the tape holding her together" explanation, given that (A) parents don't usually matter that much in reality, and (B) this contradicts the ostensible influence of Gin-Jun persisting long after his own death.

(Also, what's much worse than Shojo giving Miko fancy ideas about her future importance was sending her off on long solo missions in foreign territories without adequate intelligence, communications or backup. That's, um, actively life-threatening.)

I'm pretty sure that kind of danger comes with fighting evil monsters for a living, unless you consistently aim at encounter levels well below your own. Also, Miko was sent with adequate intelligence to locate the Order, and Windstriker seems to be the only backup she needs against basically anything less than a goblin high priest or army.

[understatement]

Why does Miko hate the Order so much? Has she never captured prisoners or slain terrible monsters before?

[Peelee]

Why does Miko hate the Order so much? Has she never captured prisoners or slain terrible monsters before?

I'd wager she felt about other prisoners or monsters similar to how she felt about the Order before the trail. After the trial, well, she may see it as the Order escaping justice.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why does Miko hate the Order so much? Has she never captured prisoners or slain terrible monsters before?

She does seem to prefer the "attack now and if anyone wants questions answered, a cleric with Speak the Dead prepared will be needed" justice system. She might not have usually found reason to take prisoners, thus why Shojo's cat had to insists on wanting them alive.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

Wrong on basically all accounts.
1. I don't think Miko's development hinges entirely on any one point, though the reveal of Shojo's duplicity is one of the more important factors that finally pushed her off the edge.
2. You seem to be confusing cause with effect. Miko's increased willingness to attack people is an effect of her negative character development, not a cause.
3. Miko was only ready to murder the OotS members who were actively obstructing her, not all five.
4. If her willingness to murder most of the Order (especially Belkar) had nothing to do with the mutual antagonism they'd built up in the weeks they traveled together, I'll eat...well, might as well say I'll eat the Sun, for how likely I'll have to follow through.
5. Her hatred for Belkar goes further. Aside from those weeks of intentionally antagonizing Miko (the most elaborate example being when he contacted the lawyers to file a class-action lawsuit), Belkar murdered at least one guard in an obvious, deliberate attempt to provoke Miko. It wasn't just the dang cat-and-mouse, Lacuna.
6. Miko thought Shojo was evil for collaborating with the Order, not the other way around. If she thought they were colluding, it wouldn't make her more willing to murder them.

Oh, I'm aware that Miko had plenty of prior reasons to dislike the Order in general and Belkar in particular- my point is simply that, prior to the cat-and-mouse over the dead guard, this wasn't sufficient reason for her to try and kill them. (Not even Belkar, given she had the opportunity to do so after their second fight outside the ruined inn and earlier implied that she has discretion over the use of lethal force against evil opponents.)

The guard who Belkar murdered would be an entirely fair reason to execute Belkar himself, and I wouldn't personally quibble too much if she did so while he was downed and unconscious, legal niceties aside. But projecting that on the entire Order? (Because the entire Order were set to resist her, and even killing one would be problematic, as "make peace with your Gods" seems to suggest.) I mean, the author describes her as 'bordering on a complete psychotic break' and then 'pushed beyond what had been a line she didn't cross'.

There's a distinction between 'willing to kill non-evil persons to take down an unconscious criminal' and 'willing to kill one's own liege lord', and I'm not saying Shojo's duplicity didn't contribute to that, but it was crossing the former threshold that actually shocked me more than the latter. Don't get me wrong, I'm obviously someone who thinks Miko gets more of a bum rap than she deserves, but she does seem to be expressing lethal intent here in a context where that would not have been proportionate and justified. If realised, that intent would, IMHO, have already been fall-worthy... and that suggests she was 'over the edge' well before Shojo's nonsense came to light.

Or Tarquin's insistence that "K means N, because I am the real villain, therefore I J instead of K".

The key difference being what happens when they're surprised: Elan seeing himself in a support role results in him readily rolling with the punches when his expectations aren't met, where Tarquin seeing himself as a driving influence results in him doubling down against the punches when his expectations aren't met. Miko takes the third option, where she looks outside the scope of the surprise to see where the punches are coming from. Which is great for creative problem solving...when the point of contention isn't so core to your identity that "outside" doesn't feel like a meaningful concept.

Umm... I guess?

[Rogar Demonblud]

She does seem to prefer the "attack now and if anyone wants questions answered, a cleric with Speak the Dead prepared will be needed" justice system. She might not have usually found reason to take prisoners, thus why Shojo's cat had to insists on wanting them alive.

Grey Wolf

Pretty much. Her first appearance is her swearing to hunt down and slaughter some people who might have possibly committed a crime in another jurisdiction than the one she works for.

[Peelee]

Pretty much. Her first appearance is her swearing to hunt down and slaughter some people who might have possibly committed a crime in another jurisdiction than the one she works for.

She does claim universal jurisdiction, so her first appearance is her swearing to hunt down and slaughter some people who might have possibly committed a crime.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And the local county sheriff swears he can hunt down and arrest anyone in any county in the state or even across the border in another state. Doesn't make it true. Miko works for Azure City, she has authority in Azure City.

[Peelee]

And the local county sheriff swears he can hunt down and arrest anyone in any county in the state or even across the border in another state. Doesn't make it true. Miko works for Azure City, she has authority in Azure City.

He can until someone stops him. In the absence of being stopped by force, then the legal system will respond to that. How'd their legal system respond to Miko bringing them in?

[Ruck]

Motivation. Are you doing good for Good's sake, or for the good of individuals?
An example: Is a soldier fighting Nazis doing so to protect their homeland, because their family needs the money, or because they think the Nazis are Evil? That's two Good motivations and one that could be construed as Good or Neutral, but only one is really "for Good's sake".
Does that help?

Not really, because those motivations are so different than the ones you previously cited as not being "for Good's sake."

Or a different definition of "good for Good's sake". As I told Grey Wolf, i don't think doing something because it's right isn't the same as going it to support the cause of Good, especially if you're motivated to do the right thing/see it as the right thing because of something more specific (like a desire to protect the innocent or save lives or comfort the needy or whatever).

Doing it "for the money" is quite obviously not "for Good's sake"; I'm saying "a desire to protect the innocent or save lives or comfort the needy or whatever" is.

[Lacuna Caster]

And the local county sheriff swears he can hunt down and arrest anyone in any county in the state or even across the border in another state. Doesn't make it true. Miko works for Azure City, she has authority in Azure City.

This may not have occurred to you, but the specific charge levelled against the Order was 'endangering the fabric of reality', and reality contains, among other places, Azure City. That kind of puts them in Miko's jurisdiction. It... puts them in everyone's jurisdiction, really.

[Lvl45DM!]

This may not have occurred to you, but the specific charge levelled against the Order was 'endangering the fabric of reality', and reality contains, among other places, Azure City. That kind of puts them in Miko's jurisdiction. It... puts them in everyone's jurisdiction, really.

That is definitely not how jurisdiction works for law enforcement I'm pretty sure. If theres a guy, a random unaffliated guy, threatening to unleash a super-virus that will kill everyone in the world, and he's in, oh lets say, Madeupistan, a random cop from Notrealiadoesn't have the legal right to go get him.
Notrealia also doesn't have the right to invade Madeupistan to get him, or send elite Notrealia spies or spec-op dudes to get him.

Now I'm pretty sure in this case the OotS were in international waters, which, honestly I have no idea how that works so...
Its outside Mikos jurisdiction but its not IN anyone elses?

[Jasdoif]

That is definitely not how jurisdiction works for law enforcement I'm pretty sure. If theres a guy, a random unaffliated guy, threatening to unleash a super-virus that will kill everyone in the world, and he's in, oh lets say, Madeupistan, a random cop from Notrealiadoesn't have the legal right to go get him.
Notrealia also doesn't have the right to invade Madeupistan to get him, or send elite Notrealia spies or spec-op dudes to get him.

I'm pretty sure the Sapphire Guard isn't like law enforcement....Which is a critical detail here: Notrealia and Madeupistan almost certainly have different laws, and Notrealia may indeed see its agents as having the legal right to go after targets in Madeupistan. This could quite easily cause problems between Notrealia and Madeupistan in the trivially-likely case that Madeupistan doesn't agree...but as Peelee was getting at earlier, if the Madeupistanians don't do anything to stop them, the Notrealians are unlikely to stop.

This is, I think, related to Roy's "It was an illegitimate authority" comment: he didn't recognize Miko as having the authority to arrest him. (He did, of course, fail to stop her.)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Oh, I'm aware that Miko had plenty of prior reasons to dislike the Order in general and Belkar in particular- my point is simply that, prior to the cat-and-mouse over the dead guard, this wasn't sufficient reason for her to try and kill them.

Of course not; they were being brought to justice. But when Belkar escaped, she saw no way to bring him to justice that didn't involve killing him then and there, since he obviously couldn't be held for trial or execution.
It's kinda warped logic, but not that much more warped than the logic Miko had been using before, and IMHO the pressure Belkar added there justifies the additional warping.

Not really, because those motivations are so different than the ones you previously cited as not being "for Good's sake."

Doing it "for the money" is quite obviously not "for Good's sake"; I'm saying "a desire to protect the innocent or save lives or comfort the needy or whatever" is.

So, wait, you think "protect my homeland" is completely distinct from "protect the innocent" or "save lives," and that the latter are equivalent to "good for Good's sake"?
The way I see it, "good for Good's sake" is doing whatever is Good, because it is Good and for no other reason—Good as an ideology of its own. Meanwhile, protecting the innocent, saving lives, comforting the needy, etc are focused on achieving desired ends which are good, but not because they're trying to be Good. (There's a reason I've been capitalizing half of my Good's.)

(And as an aside, do you really think a Good motivation, e.g. "protect my family," become not-Good if one of the steps in your plan involves getting money? Or do you not think that "protect my family" is a Good motivation? Neither of those seems right.)

[Lvl45DM!]

I'm pretty sure the Sapphire Guard isn't like law enforcement....Which is a critical detail here: Notrealia and Madeupistan almost certainly have different laws, and Notrealia may indeed see its agents as having the legal right to go after targets in Madeupistan. This could quite easily cause problems between Notrealia and Madeupistan in the trivially-likely case that Madeupistan doesn't agree...but as Peelee was getting at earlier, if the Madeupistanians don't do anything to stop them, the Notrealians are unlikely to stop.

This is, I think, related to Roy's "It was an illegitimate authority" comment: he didn't recognize Miko as having the authority to arrest him. (He did, of course, fail to stop her.)

Yeah but Madeupistan's laws are the only ones that matter, since the dude is IN Madeupistan. Notrealia can say whatever it likes, but its influence ENDS outside of Notrealia.
Maybe Madeupistan is worried that Notrealia is exaggerating the threat's importance to kidnap some people to service its own goals.
Which is literally what Shojo was doing, if you recall.

[Peelee]

I'm pretty sure the Sapphire Guard isn't like law enforcement...

They're both Law enforcement and Good enforcement!

[Jasdoif]

Yeah but Madeupistan's laws are the only ones that matter, since the dude is IN Madeupistan. Notrealia can say whatever it likes, but its influence ENDS outside of Notrealia.
Maybe Madeupistan is worried that Notrealia is exaggerating the threat's importance to kidnap some people to service its own goals.
Which is literally what Shojo was doing, if you recall.

Influence is being able to cause changes, regardless of authorization or mutual agreement or whatever social construct around delegation or reciprocity. (Militaries have influence, for example; even though they primarily exist for hostile situations.)


As you said earlier, Miko captured the Order outside the bounds of any nation; no secular authority opposed whatever the equivalent to extradition would be in this situation. However,

Spoiler: War and XPs Bonus Content

Show

Shojo sending paladins after individuals into other countries apparently happens frequently enough that a travel guide mentions "Azure City has recently developed a reputation for violating sovereign nations over what are perceived as 'personal grudges'."

You can certainly say that Shojo shouldn't be sending the Sapphire Guard after individuals in other countries without the cooperation of those countries; but he clearly can, and clearly does.

---

They're both Law enforcement and Good enforcement!

The paladin members, sure. The cleric members, not necessarily!

[Wizard_Lizard]

You'd think a thread about Eugene and Miko would be improved by adding Tarquin?

Might as well go the full distance and make a comparison with Andi

As the original oster, I do recall the thread was not about any of the three that you stated.


It was about ROY'S SISTER

[Darth Paul]

So, wait, you think "protect my homeland" is completely distinct from "protect the innocent" or "save lives," and that the latter are equivalent to "good for Good's sake"?
The way I see it, "good for Good's sake" is doing whatever is Good, because it is Good and for no other reason—Good as an ideology of its own. Meanwhile, protecting the innocent, saving lives, comforting the needy, etc are focused on achieving desired ends which are good, but not because they're trying to be Good. (There's a reason I've been capitalizing half of my Good's.)

Yeah but Madeupistan's laws are the only ones that matter, since the dude is IN Madeupistan. Notrealia can say whatever it likes, but its influence ENDS outside of Notrealia.
Maybe Madeupistan is worried that Notrealia is exaggerating the threat's importance to kidnap some people to service its own goals.
Which is literally what Shojo was doing, if you recall.

That's called "Extraordinary Rendition" where I come from, buckaroos. And it's not a Good act to invade another sovereignty without provocation, even if you claim you're protecting your homeland by doing so. That's called "a flimsy excuse".

Pretty much the reason for my bias (which I will admit openly) is that I put myself in the protagonists' shoes, which we are meant to do in most stories (not things like Hannibal, hopefully). And I would have a strongly rooted objection to anyone attempting to murder me for no reason, which is exactly what Miko did on her first encounter with the OotS, after they didn't immediately and abjectly surrender so they could be taken away to a death sentence. With no explanation of who the hell she was, or what they were supposed to have done. And my opinion of Miko pretty much ran downhill from there.

Were there some extenuating circumstances, like the fact that everyone she questioned painted this group in the worst possible light? Yes. But was Miko already predetermined that they were a group of evildoers who were going to feel the edge of her sword? YES. Shojo had to pull her back before she even started her mission. Her intelligence gathering, such as it was, only reinforced her preconceived ideas... and later, we would see that she tends to dismiss any evidence that conflicts with her preconceived opinions in any case. Miko never questioned the reliability of the witnesses (even a rogue and a sorceress who tried to attack her) because their accounts fit what she already thought was the truth. She never conceived that she was hunting bumbling heroes instead of evil masterminds.

I feel some pity for Miko when I read her story again. Trouble is, I don't feel enough, because she blinds herself to any possibility that she might be wrong, and that leads directly to her fall. O-Chul shows us that a Paladin's greatest strength is humility. She has none.

[Mightymosy]

Right!

Who is aweome, by the way.

[Lacuna Caster]

That's called "Extraordinary Rendition" where I come from, buckaroos. And it's not a Good act to invade another sovereignty without provocation, even if you claim you're protecting your homeland by doing so. That's called "a flimsy excuse".

Yeah but Madeupistan's laws are the only ones that matter, since the dude is IN Madeupistan. Notrealia can say whatever it likes, but its influence ENDS outside of Notrealia.

That is definitely not how jurisdiction works for law enforcement I'm pretty sure. If theres a guy, a random unaffliated guy, threatening to unleash a super-virus that will kill everyone in the world, and he's in, oh lets say, Madeupistan, a random cop from Notrealia doesn't have the legal right to go get him.

They may not technically have the legal right, but my broader point is that, if folks in Madeupistan really truly are trying to blow up the planet and the government of Notrealia genuinely knows that to a certainty, then they have a moral right- and indeed an obligation- to protect themselves, their citizens and all terrestrial life.

Now, I will be the first to point out that Shojo had a wide array of tools at his disposal for handling the Order's arrest/recruitment with greater efficiency and less violence. But to argue that Shojo doesn't have the right to take action to ensure that the planet his own city is sitting on continues existing? Sorry, I don't buy that, national borders be damned. This really is something bigger than any set of secular laws, and insisting to the contrary would actually be Lawful Stupid.

EDIT:

Were there some extenuating circumstances, like the fact that everyone she questioned painted this group in the worst possible light? Yes. But was Miko already predetermined that they were a group of evildoers who were going to feel the edge of her sword? YES. Shojo had to pull her back before she even started her mission...

The problem with Shojo's "Mr Scruffy Says" panel is that, if Shojo was genuinely interested in bringing them in alive there are like a billion other things he should be doing differently. And given Miko repeatedly states that Shojo ordered their execution, I have to take this as being either a lie, a contradiction or a retcon.

Now, I'm not blaming Roy for being unwilling to surrender, but the truth remains that Miko had more and better reasons to apply lethal force, and actually gives more fair warning, than the Order had done up to that point. Maybe you should try putting yourself in the shoes of the NPCs now and then.

I mean, let's just take the case of going to battle with the Ogres: Does it ever occur to Roy that they should sit down and have a chat with their chieftain, double-check their alignment, or cross-reference descriptions to ensure they haven't been mixed up with their evil twins? No, his plan is to ambush them unawares and, where practical, slit their throats in their sleep. I can see valid arguments that Miko's investigative technique could have been improved, but she was actually more thorough and careful than was typical for the Order at the time.

Literally the first major interaction Miko has with the Order involves her stopping in mid-combat to take in evidence that contradicts her previous working theory about her suspects, so I'm not seeing irrefutable evidence of confirmation bias there. But okay, let's imagine that some other very meticulous paladin or intelligence-gathering squad was dispatched to investigate what the Order had been doing. Do you think this would work out in the Order's favour?

Elan, at bare minimum, recklessly endangered hundreds of goblin lives when he destroyed the Keep (which sounds like something that, I don't know, O-Chul might get upset about.) Belkar is a straight-up psychopath who killed dozens in a bar-room brawl immediately before he joined the team. Vaarsuvius likes to blow people up whenever he doesn't get his way. Haley presumably has an extensive criminal record. The Order might not be strictly guilty of consciously trying to unmake reality, but are they 'innocent'? Hell no. And would Miko, or any other paladin, be justified in thinking that they needed closer supervision? Hell yes.

[Prinygod]

That's called "Extraordinary Rendition" where I come from, buckaroos. And it's not a Good act to invade another sovereignty without provocation, even if you claim you're protecting your homeland by doing so. That's called "a flimsy excuse".

Pretty much the reason for my bias (which I will admit openly) is that I put myself in the protagonists' shoes, which we are meant to do in most stories (not things like Hannibal, hopefully). And I would have a strongly rooted objection to anyone attempting to murder me for no reason, which is exactly what Miko did on her first encounter with the OotS, after they didn't immediately and abjectly surrender so they could be taken away to a death sentence. With no explanation of who the hell she was, or what they were supposed to have done. And my opinion of Miko pretty much ran downhill from there.

Were there some extenuating circumstances, like the fact that everyone she questioned painted this group in the worst possible light? Yes. But was Miko already predetermined that they were a group of evildoers who were going to feel the edge of her sword? YES. Shojo had to pull her back before she even started her mission. Her intelligence gathering, such as it was, only reinforced her preconceived ideas... and later, we would see that she tends to dismiss any evidence that conflicts with her preconceived opinions in any case. Miko never questioned the reliability of the witnesses (even a rogue and a sorceress who tried to attack her) because their accounts fit what she already thought was the truth. She never conceived that she was hunting bumbling heroes instead of evil masterminds.

I feel some pity for Miko when I read her story again. Trouble is, I don't feel enough, because she blinds herself to any possibility that she might be wrong, and that leads directly to her fall. O-Chul shows us that a Paladin's greatest strength is humility. She has none.

This shows a narrow mind, but not a malic intent. Remember that the info of the orders crime came from a divination. It wasn't a case of if they did it but why. That miko wasn't skeptical, is certainly a flaw, but it doesn't mean she is always this way. In189 even after the sorceress damanded forced servitude, miko did not attack first, and even tried to negotiate with the remaining bandit. She could have just as easily demanded them tell her what she wanted to know before untying them, and did not assume the worst of them. She is not selective in her lack of skepticism.

[Lacuna Caster]

This shows a narrow mind, but not a malic intent. Remember that the info of the orders crime came from a divination. It wasn't a case of if they did it but why. That miko wasn't skeptical, is certainly a flaw, but it doesn't mean she is always this way. In 189 even after the sorceress demanded forced servitude, miko did not attack first, and even tried to negotiate with the remaining bandit. She could have just as easily demanded them tell her what she wanted to know before untying them, and did not assume the worst of them. She is not selective in her lack of skepticism.

Yeah, this. It continually amazes me that out of all the things people fixate on in that strip, being insufficiently tactful with people who outright threaten to kill her is considered most telling of her character.

I don't even think it's a case of being narrow-minded or insufficiently skeptical. I just don't think the general standards of logic in the strip were all that high at the time.

[woweedd]

As far as Miko goes...Her face-reveal involves her asking the Order to surrender, and, when she gets a questioning response, attempting murder, not only against orders, but without checking whether any of the party other then Roy were Evil, particularly considering the sprll’s known failabilty. If she’a a law enforcement officer, she’s bad at it.