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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Of course not; they were being brought to justice. But when Belkar escaped, she saw no way to bring him to justice that didn't involve killing him then and there, since he obviously couldn't be held for trial or execution.
    It's kinda warped logic, but not that much more warped than the logic Miko had been using before, and IMHO the pressure Belkar added there justifies the additional warping.
    Well, hang on a second. The verdict of the trial was 'not guilty', and while one might disagree with that verdict or point out the various other things the Order were guilty of, I would at least expect Miko to respect that verdict if she went to the trouble of bringing the defendants back alive in the first place. And earlier she says that "your guilt or innocence, in the absence of an evil alignment, is not for me to determine".

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    As far as Miko goes...Her face-reveal involves her asking the Order to surrender, and, when she gets a questioning response, attempting murder, not only against orders, but without checking whether any of the party other then Roy were Evil, particularly considering the sprll’s known failabilty. If she’a a law enforcement officer, she’s bad at it.
    Again, I don't think it really was against orders, and I don't understand why Miko is being held to much higher standards than Roy, who is quite happy to ambush enemies in their sleep with zero warning.

    What do you think would happen if Miko had actually been more thorough in her investigation or probing in her questions about what the Order were doing? If she had, for example, taken the time to cast Detect Evil on the entire party before she attack, she would have known immediately that Belkar was evil and responded to him with lethal force. If she had taken a full description of the Linear Guild, she would have known that Belkar's evil opposite was a deceased kobold and thus not responsible for any recent halfling crimes. The same due diligence that might separate Roy from Thog would also separate V from Drr'zzti, and the latter didn't use explosive runes on irritating servants. Using Discern Lies or Zone of Truth while taking a deposition from her suspects would likely have turned up any number of awkward facts. To the extent that Miko did a less-than-perfect job at police investigation, it's far from clear to me that this worked to the Order's disadvantage.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Yinsufficiently tactful
    Calling Miko insufficiently tactful is like calling the Isla Nublar inhabitants tropical lizards.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-03 at 07:34 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Again, I don't think it really was against orders
    It really was though.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Yeah, I'm aware of what the panel says. My point is that this looks like either a lie, a retcon, or a contradiction, especially when nothing else about Shojo's behaviour is especially consistent with wanting the Order alive.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Yeah, I'm aware of what the panel says. My point is that this looks like either a lie, a retcon, or a contradiction, especially when nothing else about Shojo's behaviour is especially consistent with wanting the Order alive.
    Only because you're not willing to entertain the possibility that Miko was at fault there by virtue of being so eager to kill that she distorted her orders, either consciously or subconsciously.
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  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Only because you're not willing to entertain the possibility that Miko was at fault there by virtue of being so eager to kill that she distorted her orders, either consciously or subconsciously.
    Miko is many things, but a brazen liar is not one of them. I mean, even after the trial scene, she obeys Shojo when she explicitly tells her to back down and not kill the Order, and that's when she's under much more emotional stress. So no, I don't give "Mr. Scruffy says" a whole lot of credence.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Miko is many things, but a brazen liar is not one of them. I mean, even after the trial scene, she obeys Shojo when she explicitly tells her to back down and not kill the Order, and that's when she's under much more emotional stress. So no, I don't give "Mr. Scruffy says" a whole lot of credence.
    She's not a brazen liar, but she's good at deluding herself. Hence the "subconsciously" bit I added. At any rate, you're free to dismiss an explicit piece of the comic that clearly shows Miko being instructed to not kill the Order unless strictly necessary, but then there's not much of a point in arguing if canon goes out of the window.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Miko is many things, but a brazen liar is not one of them.
    Ive often encountered people who, when I corrected what they said, asked if I was calling them a liar. Every time, without fail, they were simply mistaken. They all believed with absolute conviction they were correct, and the only possibility was that I was calling them a liar.

    Miko could have heard what she wanted to hear, and believed it completely later when relaying what she thought her mission was all without lying. But you cannot say "that panel is inconvenient for my argument, so I will ignore it" and expect meaningful discussion.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-03 at 07:49 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Miko could have heard what she wanted to hear, and believed it completely later when relaying what she thought her mission was all without lying. But you cannot say "that panel is inconvenient for my argument, so I will ignore it" and expect meaningful discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    She's not a brazen liar, but she's good at deluding herself. Hence the "subconsciously" bit I added. At any rate, you're free to dismiss an explicit piece of the comic that clearly shows Miko being instructed to not kill the Order unless strictly necessary, but then there's not much of a point in arguing if canon goes out of the window.
    Well, yes. I have been arguing extensively that the canon of OOTS basically goes out the window as soon as Eugene was revealed to be the BoPLaG. So, sure, you can certainly argue that post-Eugene Miko is a violent and deluded fanatic, but she effectively occupies a different universe from pre-Eugene Miko, and I don't consider it fair to judge her by the same evidence.

    A Shojo who actually wanted the Order alive after talking to Eugene would not give Miko vague directions based on his cat's random whims. He would contact Roy with a sending spell to arrange pickup, teleport O-Chul to provide an escort, and provide a complete description of both the OOTS and LG to eliminate any risk of confusion. So... yeah, I'm not buying this story.
    Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2019-05-03 at 07:56 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Well, yes. I have been arguing extensively that the canon of OOTS basically goes out the window as soon as Eugene was revealed to be the BoPLaG. So, sure, you can certainly argue that post-Eugene Miko is a violent and deluded fanatic, but she effectively occupies a different universe from pre-Eugene Miko, and I don't consider it fair to judge her by the same evidence.

    A Shojo who actually wanted the Order alive after talking to Eugene would not give Miko vague directions based on his cat's random whims. He would contact Roy with a sending spell to arrange pickup, teleport O-Chul to provide an escort, and provide a complete description of both the OOTS and LG to eliminate any risk of confusion. So... yeah, I'm not buying this story.
    I'm not terribly concerned with what you buy. But if you try to debate against other people, especially if you want them to buy what you're saying, then I'm just letting you know that it's a quest largely doomed to failure once you break out the "that's inconvenient for my argument so let's shelve it" bits.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    As Peelee says, your purchasing habits are at your own discretion. Yes, you've argued that extensively, without convincing many people, but at any rate it is irrelevant. Whatever you think of the quality of the story, the fact remains that Miko had orders not to kill unless strictly necessary.
    Last edited by hroțila; 2019-05-03 at 08:05 AM.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    As Peelee says, your purchasing habits are at your own discretion. Yes, you've argued that extensively, without convincing many people, but at any rate it is irrelevant. Whatever you think of the quality of the story, the fact remains that Miko had orders not to kill unless strictly necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm not terribly concerned with what you buy. But if you try to debate against other people, especially if you want them to buy what you're saying, then I'm just letting you know that it's a quest largely doomed to failure once you break out the "that's inconvenient for my argument so let's shelve it" bits.
    No, I'm just profoundly unclear on why, exactly, we're considering Shojo's word to be in any sense a reliable form of evidence here, from either the watsonian or doylist perspective. Shojo is known to be a liar. I mean, if you can get away with saying "Miko must be twisting Shojo's words", I can just as easily imagine that the scene went down like this:

    Shojo: "Actually, Mr Scruffy says you should try hard to bring them back alive."
    Miko: "*sigh* As your cat wishes, master. If it is possible."
    Shojo: "FOR IMMEDIATE EXECUTION"

    Would this behaviour on Shojo's part be kind of deranged and schizoid? Sure. But no more bizarre than... everything else I noted.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    With that logic, you could dismiss almost the entire canon by positing that something happened directly after every scene that completely contradicted or undid what was shown on panel. And no, that wouldn't be just as "bizarre" as those alleged inconsistencies you've brought up.
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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    As Peelee says, your purchasing habits are at your own discretion. Yes, you've argued that extensively, without convincing many people, but at any rate it is irrelevant. Whatever you think of the quality of the story, the fact remains that Miko had orders not to kill unless strictly necessary.
    I don't agree with Lacuna's retcon theory. Miko's orders were to "try hard" to bring them alive, as pointed out "from shojo's cat". She did ask them to surrender, which could fall with in her orders "try hard". Remember by this point she already knows they destroyed the gate, and had circumstancal evidence of their "misdeeds" plus the detect evil. She followed the letter of her orders but not the spirit. But does this mean she was already on the path to falling? It's hard to say.
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-05-03 at 08:25 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    With that logic, you could dismiss almost the entire canon by positing that something happened directly after every scene that completely contradicted or undid what was shown on panel.
    You probably could. But I'm not invested in trying to force consistency between portions of the narrative that basically don't fit together, and I'm already in a position of handwaving vast tracts of canon on that basis.

    Early strip Miko isn't a liar, isn't insane, clearly demonstrated fidelity to Shojo's orders even under conditions of much greater stress, and states out loud that her master wanted the Order executed. To the extent that the canon asserts something different, the canon is basically broken.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    I don't agree with Lacuna's retcon theory. Miko's orders were to "try hard" to bring them alive, as pointed out "from shojo's cat". She did ask them to surrender, which could fall with in her orders "try hard". Remember by this point she already knows they destroyed the gate, and had circumstancal evidence of their "misdeeds" plus the detect evil. She followed the letter of her orders but not the spirit. But does this mean she was already on the path to falling? It's hard to say.
    Oh, I'm in broad agreement that the evidence available to Miko at the time essentially justified her initial efforts to take down the Order (though, interestingly, she only uses nonlethal attacks on Haley, V and Belkar.)

    The problem is that- again- she earlier states explicitly that her master wants them dead. I don't see a way to reconcile this with even the letter of Shojo's supposed orders.
    Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2019-05-03 at 08:31 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prinygod View Post
    I don't agree with Lacuna's retcon theory. Miko's orders were to "try hard" to bring them alive, as pointed out "from shojo's cat". She did ask them to surrender, which could fall with in her orders "try hard". Remember by this point she already knows they destroyed the gate, and had circumstancal evidence of their "misdeeds" plus the detect evil. She followed the letter of her orders but not the spirit. But does this mean she was already on the path to falling? It's hard to say.
    A paladin whose response to "Bring in criminals for justice" is "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible", and and employs weasel words such as "if it is possible" when accepting orders to give themselves an out to NOT have to bring people alive if they don't immediately surrender is already well on their way to falling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  17. - Top - End - #197
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    There's a super simple way to reconcile all that info, Lacuna, it just reflects badly on Miko so you don't want to accept it. The canon is not the problem here.
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  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    No, I'm just profoundly unclear on why, exactly, we're considering Shojo's word to be in any sense a reliable form of evidence here, from either the watsonian or doylist perspective.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    I think Shojo deserves a share of the blame for telling Miko that the orders to bring the Order back alive came from his cat. (And in general, I find it highly problematic that the Sapphire Guard didn't take steps to remove him as soon as they came to believe their leader was insane.)

    But this "that panel never happened, 'cause Miko wouldn't disobey orders" stuff is quite unambiguously Lacuna demonstrating his chutzpah again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  20. - Top - End - #200
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    A paladin whose response to "Bring in criminals for justice" is "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible", and and employs weasel words such as "if it is possible"...
    Sometimes it legitimately isn't possible, but according to the author, "In #120, she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding". I wouldn't make too big a deal of this.

    Even if we imagine that Miko is flat-out disobeying Shojo's orders... so what? Disobeying orders isn't evil behaviour, just chaotic, and not particularly hard to justify if the superior in question has successfully convinced you of his own insanity. Whether attacking the Order was good or evil depends strictly on the evidence of their crimes available to Miko at the time.
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  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    (And in general, I find it highly problematic that the Sapphire Guard didn't take steps to remove him as soon as they came to believe their leader was insane.)
    I doubt this will ever be explored in the comic, so all we have is speculation and headcanon, which in my case is: there was a push to do so from whatever was left of the old Paladins (the nobility scions we see in Scar), and Hinjo quickly put an end to any such talk, to the best of his ability, because he did not think he was ready for the position, and he certainly wasn't about to let any of the old guard take his uncle's place.

    As long as "the cat's" orders where in line with previous expectations, they went along with it. And given that "the cat" was likely ordering perfectly rational orders like "bring the prisoners alive for trial", they were concerned but not alarmed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  22. - Top - End - #202
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    But didn’t Mr. Scruffy order O-Chul to put three people to secret detention without a trial? Wouldn’t that be a cause for alarm?
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  23. - Top - End - #203
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But didn’t Mr. Scruffy order O-Chul to put three people to secret detention without a trial? Wouldn’t that be a cause for alarm?
    Undoubtedly. Would it be cause for a "Stage a coup"-level of alarm, though? Because they weren't going to get Hinjo on board – Hinjo wanted to believe Shojo would get better.

    Ultimately, rulers that are incapacitated to a greater or lesser extent are an unavoidable fact of life under absolute monarchies. When it happens, their ministers usually just try to limit the harm the monarch can do, unless it gets REALLY bad.
    Last edited by hroțila; 2019-05-03 at 08:54 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #204
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I think Shojo deserves a share of the blame for telling Miko that the orders to bring the Order back alive came from his cat. (And in general, I find it highly problematic that the Sapphire Guard didn't take steps to remove him as soon as they came to believe their leader was insane.)

    But this "that panel never happened, 'cause Miko wouldn't disobey orders" stuff is...
    A reasonable extrapolation from her actually obeying orders?

    And again, never mind that Shojo said that his cat wanted them alive. The larger problem is that Shojo is sitting on top of a vast amount of intelligence on the Order, the Linear Guild and Xykon/RC that he never sees fit to divulge, even when there's no reason to conceal it. Then he sends the wrong person with zero backup to do a job, very very slowly, that could have been accomplished with a sending spell. This is only the tip of the iceberg of crazy that is Shojo's plan.
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  25. - Top - End - #205
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But didn’t Mr. Scruffy order O-Chul to put three people to secret detention without a trial? Wouldn’t that be a cause for alarm?
    Remind me when was that? Literally the only O-Chul - Mr. Scruffy interaction I can think of is when O-Chul was introduced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  26. - Top - End - #206
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Remind me when was that? Literally the only O-Chul - Mr. Scruffy interaction I can think of is when O-Chul was introduced.
    O-Chul explicitly raises concerns about the illegal detention of prisoners without trial in the very next strip. And then... goes along with it.
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    (And in general, I find it highly problematic that the Sapphire Guard didn't take steps to remove him as soon as they came to believe their leader was insane.)
    Historically, mad kings existed. There are two problems: one is that of having a legal framework to depose them or deprive them of power, and another to have this happen without causing a civil war, or being killed in the process.

    In theory, the SG itself could have separated the role of "Master of the Guard" from Lord of the City, and devolved the authority of the Master of the Guard to a deputy until Shojo got well or the City had a fit ruler. The question is whether the right person existed, and whether they could do so: Shojo didn't really go insane, and, before he started playing mad, he probably devised some lawyering trick to force the paladin to keep accepting his orders .
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I can just as easily imagine that the scene went down like this:

    Shojo: "Actually, Mr Scruffy says you should try hard to bring them back alive."
    Miko: "*sigh* As your cat wishes, master. If it is possible."
    Shojo: "FOR IMMEDIATE EXECUTION"
    You can if you ignore that she knew they were supposed to be tried, and didn't know what the punishment would be (she claimed there could be only one, which speaks to not having complete knowledge, and also speaks to how she thinks it should work).
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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroțila View Post
    Undoubtedly. Would it be cause for a "Stage a coup"-level of alarm, though? Because they weren't going to get Hinjo on board – Hinjo wanted to believe Shojo would get better.

    Ultimately, rulers that are incapacitated to a greater or lesser extent are an unavoidable fact of life under absolute monarchies. When it happens, their ministers usually just try to limit the harm the monarch can do, unless it gets REALLY bad.
    Real-world monarchs don't have holy warriors who will literally lose their magic powers if they ever do something evil.

    (And it also reflects badly on Shojo that he played off something as extreme as "my most powerful paladin casually disregarded orders to bring people back alive in favor of attacking to kill," but that's 1) the opposite of a plot hole, being an early demonstration of the fatal flaw that got Shojo killed, and 2) something Lacuna will never engage with because "more people should have treated Miko like a dangerous loose cannon" is the opposite of the narrative he wants.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    A paladin whose response to "Bring in criminals for justice" is "My blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible", and and employs weasel words such as "if it is possible" when accepting orders to give themselves an out to NOT have to bring people alive if they don't immediately surrender is already well on their way to falling.

    Grey Wolf
    Any paladin can fall, based on the description of attonement they can fall accedently. I have no doubt had miko successfully killed Roy, she would have fell. Even then paladin has a built in checks and balance, they can fall easily, but attone if they have the will. I am talking about a falling from good, that was the original discussion.
    Last edited by Prinygod; 2019-05-03 at 09:08 AM.

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