Greenhilt afterlife conundrum.

[Jasdoif]

The point I'm trying to make is that Miko's claiming their execution has already been decreed by Shojo.

Thus it doesn't make sense for "charged with crimes for which the only possible sentence is death" to be things she picked up along the way....

Would it make sense for her to be interpreting Shojo's intentions? I mean, if she believes he's more than a little loopy, following his exact words without question would be just as crazy....The accuracy of her interpretation is highly questionable, at best; but with Shojo actively deceiving her, I'm not sure how much of that is fair to pin on Miko.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd point out that the operative phrase there is on its way

Yes? That's what I am addressing.

But does this mean she was already on the path to falling?

In my posts I laid out the reasons why, IMnpHO, I think that she was indeed "on the path to falling".

Not that the conversation will go anywhere, unless you want to counter what I said as a defence that, yes, I do believe she was on the path before she met the Order.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Soon apparently didn't think to write an "In case the lord of Azure City becomes incapable of performing their duties but has not committed any crimes which would allow him to be lawfully removed from office" clause, leaving the paladins with no steps they could take to remove him.

That would effectively hobble any order of Hellknights.

But it shouldn't have been nearly as effective against an order of paladins, who are Good first and Lawful distinctly second. And if their insane leader was truly consistently giving non-insane orders (and since his orders regularly included sending a loose cannon like Miko on missions, I think that's a "not actually" already), it would say something about their Intelligence scores that none of them ever went, "Wait a minute here..."

[Darth Paul]

Well, yes. I have been arguing extensively that the canon of OOTS basically goes out the window as soon as Eugene was revealed to be the BoPLaG. So, sure, you can certainly argue that post-Eugene Miko is a violent and deluded fanatic, but she effectively occupies a different universe from pre-Eugene Miko, and I don't consider it fair to judge her by the same evidence.

A Shojo who actually wanted the Order alive after talking to Eugene would not give Miko vague directions based on his cat's random whims. He would contact Roy with a sending spell to arrange pickup, teleport O-Chul to provide an escort, and provide a complete description of both the OOTS and LG to eliminate any risk of confusion. So... yeah, I'm not buying this story.

Except that that IS the canon. Eugene WAS the "Being of Light and Good".

Shojo explained clearly to Roy that he wanted the Order alive, but wasn't sure they would come. So he needed to arrest them. He also needed to have the smallest number of people involved. The gates are supposed to be a SECRET, after all.

No, I'm just profoundly unclear on why, exactly, we're considering Shojo's word to be in any sense a reliable form of evidence here, from either the watsonian or doylist perspective. Shojo is known to be a liar. I mean, if you can get away with saying "Miko must be twisting Shojo's words", I can just as easily imagine that the scene went down like this:

Shojo: "Actually, Mr Scruffy says you should try hard to bring them back alive."
Miko: "*sigh* As your cat wishes, master. If it is possible."
Shojo: "FOR IMMEDIATE EXECUTION"

Would this behaviour on Shojo's part be kind of deranged and schizoid? Sure. But no more bizarre than... everything else I noted.

At some point, you have to take characters at their word. I take Miko at her word that she believes Shojo ordered her to execute the OotS, and I take Shojo at his word when he recounts that she heard what she wanted to hear. Imagining how the events happened, doesn't change how they happened. I can imagine the Order attacking Miko first, without provocation, but that's not how it went down. What happened there was:

You're under arrest!
What?
You question me? DIE!!!

In broad strokes, anyway.

[Keltest]

That would effectively hobble any order of Hellknights.

But it shouldn't have been nearly as effective against an order of paladins, who are Good first and Lawful distinctly second. And if their insane leader was truly consistently giving non-insane orders (and since his orders regularly included sending a loose cannon like Miko on missions, I think that's a "not actually" already), it would say something about their Intelligence scores that none of them ever went, "Wait a minute here..."

My take was that Shojo was being very careful to balance his perceived randomness with actual competence specifically to avoid being dethroned by the paladins. Had he started making decrees like "dismantle the wall around the city" or "set fire to the tavern" the Guard would almost certainly have removed him from, at the least, their own power structure. But as long as his nonsense was limited to "clean the litterbox" he was not a sufficient problem to outweigh his good leadership.

[woweedd]

Except that that IS the canon. Eugene WAS the "Being of Light and Good".

Shojo explained clearly to Roy that he wanted the Order alive, but wasn't sure they would come. So he needed to arrest them. He also needed to have the smallest number of people involved. The gates are supposed to be a SECRET, after all.


At some point, you have to take characters at their word. I take Miko at her word that she believes Shojo ordered her to execute the OotS, and I take Shojo at his word when he recounts that she heard what she wanted to hear. Imagining how the events happened, doesn't change how they happened. I can imagine the Order attacking Miko first, without provocation, but that's not how it went down. What happened there was:

You're under arrest!
What?
You question me? DIE!!!

In broad strokes, anyway.

Well, technically Lacuna's theory is as valid as any other...In that OOTS is fiction and, thus, every single thing about it is equally made up. That said, if Lacuna wants to talk about the story we have, rather then whatever weird contradictory AU they've dreamed up, they need to accept the single authority of the subject. Hint: His name isn't Lacuna.

[Prinygod]

Yes? That's what I am addressing.


In my posts I laid out the reasons why, IMnpHO, I think that she was indeed "on the path to falling".

Not that the conversation will go anywhere, unless you want to counter what I said as a defence that, yes, I do believe she was on the path before she met the Order.

Grey Wolf

Challenging your beliefs, is not a task I am interested in. So I will leave it at that.

[Darth Paul]

Well, technically Lacuna's theory is as valid as any other...In that OOTS is fiction and, thus, every single thing about it is equally made up. That said, if Lacuna wants to talk about the story we have, rather then whatever weird contradictory AU they've dreamed up, they need to accept the single authority of the subject. Hint: His name isn't Lacuna.

Right... I think I said something like that.

The first version of the scene, in which we had partial information, was Miko (an unknown figure at that time) promising to bathe her blades in the OotS's blood. We then received further information, which was the full context of the scene: Miko giving her "blood" promise, and Shojo (via his cat) instructing her to try and arrest them instead. Now, if a further flashback eventually were published which agreed with Lacuna's scenario, I'd have no choice but to accept it; but currently, canon stands as it is.

We also have in that strip the full context of why Shojo follows what Lacuna calls an obtuse plan: He can't simply enlist the Order as agents, so he can't use a Sending spell to tell them he needs to bring them to Azure City. He has to invoke charges because he's technically bound by Soon's oath not to interfere with the other Gates. But the OotS are not. They're exactly what he needed. And that's why he doesn't just employ them openly; doing so would violate the oath and he really would jeopardize his position. It doesn't make sense that he would lie to his own secret agents about why he needs them to preserve the secret. Is he telling Roy everything he knows about everything? Certainly not... but what he is telling him, I accept as true.

[Bacon Elemental]

All alignment threads end up as Miko alignment threads, and all Miko alignment threads end up as Miko Quibbling threads.

Didnt someone recently fish out a Giant quote that explained precisely and unambigiously why Miko responded to "the redmountain gate is rip" with "I'll destroy them!"? It was something like "Miko thought the culprit was a big evil monster when she said that, not a bunch of midlevel Goodish adventurers."

Of all the Miko things to argue about, "Why did she say she was going to kill the order" is an odd choice.

[hamishspence]

Didnt someone recently fish out a Giant quote that explained precisely and unambigiously why Miko responded to "the redmountain gate is rip" with "I'll destroy them!"? It was something like "Miko thought the culprit was a big evil monster when she said that, not a bunch of midlevel Goodish adventurers."

Of all the Miko things to argue about, "Why did she say she was going to kill the order" is an odd choice.

The quote in question, around strip 285:

In #120, she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding. Once she sees Durkon explains they are not evil, the bloodlust backs away. She doesn't like them, but she doesn't consider killing them and brings them back to trial. Belkar and the rest have now brought it back, and pushed it to the point of her wanting to kill Good and Neutral characters. She's been pushed beyond what had been a line she didn't cross.

For the record, by the way, Miko's final speech is not swearing revenge; it's more like promising that karma will come back and punish them, and hoping she gets to be there. As in, "I hope you all get found guilty of something and I get to be the one to execute you," not, "I'm going to kill you no matter what happens."

[Prinygod]

The quote in question, around strip 285:

Thanks for the quote, I'll let it speak for itself.

[Ruck]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_non_grata

It's also a smear, it's sad what he would resort too this then actually address the topic or reasonable points

Definition of nonperson

: a person who is regarded as nonexistent: such as
a : unperson
b : one having no social or legal status

per·so·na non gra·ta
/ˌpərˌsōnə ˌnän ˈɡrädə/
noun
an unacceptable or unwelcome person.

Nothing about the aforementioned forbidden topic they are interchangable when not used in legal context

Speaking of context, your continued ignorance of the context of Miko threads and why some of us respond to Lacuna the way we do, context which has been amply provided to you in this very thread today*, has reached willful at this point. If you are going to continue to deliberately ignore past evidence so you can continue to insult people and mischaracterize their positions, let me know now.

(* - I mean, not only have multiple people explained it today, but Lacuna himself just said today that he just disregards the actual strip as canon once events start conflicting with his perception of Miko, and he's probably written 25,000 words trying to convince everyone that the version of the story in his mind palace is more accurate than the one Rich actually wrote. Do you really need it further explained why people are tired of someone constantly arguing "the author got his own story wrong and my imagined version of events is correct"?)

[Prinygod]

Speaking of context, your continued ignorance of the context of Miko threads and why some of us respond to Lacuna the way we do, context which has been amply provided to you in this very thread today*, has reached willful at this point. If you are going to continue to deliberately ignore past evidence so you can continue to insult people and mischaracterize their positions, let me know now.

(* - I mean, not only have multiple people explained it today, but Lacuna himself just said today that he just disregards the actual strip as canon once events start conflicting with his perception of Miko, and he's probably written 25,000 words trying to convince everyone that the version of the story in his mind palace is more accurate than the one Rich actually wrote. Do you really need it further explained why people are tired of someone constantly arguing "the author got his own story wrong and my imagined version of events is correct"?)

And? How is me defending Lacuna, indirectly as I did, insulting you? Why does it bother you so much that they don't like the comic, if you love the comic isn't that enough? Not only do you attack them at every opportunity, you attack anyone who says they make a good point once in a while. That you would try to shame anyone who would stick up for them, shows my discription of your behaviour, is more than correct.

[Ruck]

And? How is me defending Lacuna, indirectly as I did, insulting you?

Because saying that I "declare people non-persons" is a lie. You insult my character and my integrity when you lie about what I do and why.

Why does it bother you so much that they don't like the comic, if you love the comic isn't that enough?

Because they regularly derail conversations, insult good people, and act like none of it is their responsibility. I am tired of seeing conversations derailed and good people insulted, especially by someone who says things like they "wind up responding" to conversations like this, as though some cosmic force compels them and it's not a choice they make.

Not only do you attack them at every opportunity, you attack anyone who says they make a good point once in a while.

That is another lie.

That you would try to shame anyone who would stick up for them, shows my discription of your behaviour, is more than correct.

The fact that you can't tell the difference between attacks and shame, and pointing out your refusal to consider evidence, is not my problem, but you have tried to make it my problem.

Given your continued insistence on insulting me and rejecting consideration of the facts, I think we're done here.

[Prinygod]

Because saying that I "declare people non-persons" is a lie. You insult my character and my integrity when you lie about what I do and why.


Because they regularly derail conversations, insult good people, and act like none of it is their responsibility. I am tired of seeing conversations derailed and good people insulted, especially by someone who says things like they "wind up responding" to conversations like this, as though some cosmic force compels them and it's not a choice they make.


That is another lie.


The fact that you can't tell the difference between attacks and shame, and pointing out your refusal to consider evidence, is not my problem, but you have tried to make it my problem.

Given your continued insistence on insulting me and rejecting consideration of the facts, I think we're done here.

Your posts are nothing but an series of personal attacks. I am not sure I ever seen you contribute any other than insults and smears and memes. You will not be missed.

[Ruck]

Your posts are nothing but an series of personal attacks. I am not sure I ever seen you contribute any other than insults and smears and memes. You will not be missed.

Yeah, well, you can't make someone see what they don't want to see, and since you've been ignoring every piece of evidence that would contradict your repeated insults toward me, I can't say I'm surprised. This post is the epitome of lacking self-awareness.

I provide evidence for the things I say. You do not. You insult people over and over the rare times you contribute anything. You completely disregard the evidence presented to you so you can continue insulting people, and you provide no evidence for a basis for your insults. You side with people lying and arguing in bad faith and then lie and smear too, all the while accusing the people you're smearing of doing the same.

[Darth Paul]

Your posts are nothing but an series of personal attacks. I am not sure I ever seen you contribute any other than insults and smears and memes. You will not be missed.

Have you been reading some alternate version of this forum that I don't have access to?

I'm pretty sure this all started when someone who was not Ruck attacked Grey_Wolf_c for declaring people "non-persons" by letting them know he was ignoring them, and Ruck came to his defense, because that's not what a "non-person" is, at all. Or possibly it started when G_W_c mentioned that since Lacuna admits they just ignore the text of the comic and make up an alternate one that they like better when it suits their character interpretations, then there was no point in debating them anymore, that was when someone (still not Ruck) started tossing personal attacks around.

I still don't recall where Ruck attacked anyone.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm pretty sure this all started when someone who was not Ruck attacked Grey_Wolf_c for declaring people "non-persons" by letting them know he was ignoring them

Specifically, it was started by Prinygod themselves when they ad-homined me and put words in my mouth by trying to claim I had used a despicable antisemitic slur when, in fact, I simply informed Lacuna that I won't discuss the topic of Miko with them (I'm happy to talk with Lacuna in every other topic, just not this one).

Prinygod then seems to have continued to use the slur and, from what I see quoted above, tried to claim it was identical to persona non grata, when even a cursory glance at the definitions they themselves quoted clearly shows they are nothing alike. Ironically, their continued use of the antisemitic slur does indeed make them a persona non grata, as far as I am concerned. But I do not deny they are a person. Just an unpleasant one.

Grey Wolf

[Prinygod]

The smear squad out in full force. It's funny ever other post out of them is how I am not worth speaking to, then they come back with another personal attack. Thing is I already seen their pattern of behavior, they declare an enemy and go on the attack.

Instead dealing with the topic or facts they unrelenting attack until the person goes away or says something they can report them for. You see the same 5 people every topic, making sure the comic is only spoken as they permit. I how cannot be shamed by them, my skin is too thick.

[Prinygod]

Specifically, it was started by Prinygod themselves when they ad-homined me and put words in my mouth by trying to claim I had used a despicable antisemitic slur when, in fact, I simply informed Lacuna that I won't discuss the topic of Miko with them (I'm happy to talk with Lacuna in every other topic, just not this one).

Prinygod then seems to have continued to use the slur and, from what I see quoted above, tried to claim it was identical to persona non grata, when even a cursory glance at the definitions they themselves quoted clearly shows they are nothing alike. Ironically, their continued use of the antisemitic slur does indeed make them a persona non grata, as far as I am concerned. But I do not deny they are a person. Just an unpleasant one.

Grey Wolf

I already provided the definition of non person, and you ignored it like you do with any fact you don't like. That fact you keep bringing up a forbidden topic says more about you than me.

[Darth Paul]

You see the same 5 people every topic, making sure the comic is only spoken as they permit. I how cannot be shamed by them, my skin is too thick.

Anyone is free to discuss the comic in any way they wish, but it's the comic we're here to discuss (well, and Star Wars too); not people's alternate made-up "this is what should have happened" versions of the comic. For example, inventing quotes that happened just after the scene as if they have some bearing on the actual characters. (Note, Prinygod, I know you did not do this, it's an example.)

Interpreting the canon is fine and dandy. People making up their own alternate canon, defeats the purpose of having the discussion. As if I were to declare that what really happened in Star Wars was that Anakin never fell to the Dark Side, instead he's the only true hero and the Jedi drove him to kill those younglings.

[Prinygod]

Anyone is free to discuss the comic in any way they wish, but it's the comic we're here to discuss (well, and Star Wars too); not people's alternate made-up "this is what should have happened" versions of the comic. For example, inventing quotes that happened just after the scene as if they have some bearing on the actual characters. (Note, Prinygod, I know you did not do this, it's an example.)

Interpreting the canon is fine and dandy. People making up their own alternate canon, defeats the purpose of having the discussion. As if I were to declare that what really happened in Star Wars was that Anakin never fell to the Dark Side, instead he's the only true hero and the Jedi drove him to kill those younglings.

This would be a good reason to ignore that person, but I didn't see them do that in this topic. Should this forum really be so toxic that people bring up unrelated threads to attack them when ever they voice an opinion?

[Darth Paul]

This would be a good reason to ignore that person, but I didn't see them do that in this topic. Should this forum really be so toxic that people bring up unrelated threads to attack them when ever they voice an opinion?

Then you missed

Well, yes. I have been arguing extensively that the canon of OOTS basically goes out the window as soon as Eugene was revealed to be the BoPLaG. So, sure, you can certainly argue that post-Eugene Miko is a violent and deluded fanatic, but she effectively occupies a different universe from pre-Eugene Miko, and I don't consider it fair to judge her by the same evidence.

and

No, I'm just profoundly unclear on why, exactly, we're considering Shojo's word to be in any sense a reliable form of evidence here, from either the watsonian or doylist perspective. Shojo is known to be a liar. I mean, if you can get away with saying "Miko must be twisting Shojo's words", I can just as easily imagine that the scene went down like this:

Shojo: "Actually, Mr Scruffy says you should try hard to bring them back alive."
Miko: "*sigh* As your cat wishes, master. If it is possible."
Shojo: "FOR IMMEDIATE EXECUTION"

Would this behaviour on Shojo's part be kind of deranged and schizoid? Sure. But no more bizarre than... everything else I noted.

And once again- simply saying to someone, "I have no more wish to discuss this with you" hardly rates as an attack.

[Ruck]

The smear squad out in full force. It's funny ever other post out of them is how I am not worth speaking to, then they come back with another personal attack. Thing is I already seen their pattern of behavior, they declare an enemy and go on the attack.

Instead dealing with the topic or facts they unrelenting attack until the person goes away or says something they can report them for.

Just a staggering lack of self-awareness here. Darth Paul engaged you quite reasonably, and not only have you refused to engage what he actually said (or what I actually said or what Grey Wolf actually said, for that matter), you refuse to take responsibility for what you actually said, instead continuing to ignore all evidence so you can personally attack and bash people while complaining that they are doing exactly what you are doing.

[Lacuna Caster]

Those were things she heard in passing, but certainly not charges.

Which implies strongly that "crimes for which the only possible sentence is death": consists of Destroying The Gate.

I don't know. It's entirely possible if she actually bumped into the town watch during her travels she would have known about formal legal charges against the Linear Guild and/or Belkar, but given Miko can always 'charge' them herself this is splitting some very fine hairs.

My default interpretation is that Miko was authorised to kill the Order as long as they were evil, and otherwise obliged to bring them back for trial. Which is... what she actually says, and mostly consistent with her observed behaviour (aside, say, from keeping Belkar alive.)

Shojo knows nothing about the Linear Guild's actions.

I dunno about that. Eugene certainly knew plenty about the Linear Guild, and one might imagine he would mention their interactions in passing.

You only don't want to respond becuase they have a point, you already set Roy as a contrast to miko. Is Roy not also on the path to falling from good? Oh wait you already said you don't want to talk to me either, yet you came back all the same. Just admit you have no principals in debate, declaring nonpersonhood as you please.

No I am aware of their stance, I find it shocking, but I am not personally offended by them. I am aware of yours as well, you are on a personal crusade to remind everyone that they are a non-person. Just because others don't comment on it does not mean they didn't see threads. The fact that miko keeps coming up is not their fault, and I think they have a right to participate, despite any disagreements I might have with them. If don't want to engage them or who ever you wish, fine, but don't expect everyone to follow suit.

I appreciate the moral support, Prinygod, but honestly I'm not too bothered if GW just doesn't want to participate.

[Peelee]

I don't know. It's entirely possible if she actually bumped into the town watch during her travels she would have known about formal legal charges against the Linear Guild and/or Belkar, but given Miko can always 'charge' them herself this is splitting some very fine hairs.

Assuming a roughly similar legal system to what I'm familiar with no she can't. Cops don't charge people, the DA does. If you want to argue that we don't know whether that's the case for the Sapphire Guard, then that sword cuts both ways, and you can't declare Miko capable of charging them regardless.

[Lacuna Caster]

Assuming a roughly similar legal system to what I'm familiar with no she can't...

Sure, but this is a universe where's she's apparently authorised to straight-up execute suspects in the field based on her own judgement and the usage of Detect Evil.

That would effectively hobble any order of Hellknights.

But it shouldn't have been nearly as effective against an order of paladins, who are Good first and Lawful distinctly second. And if their insane leader was truly consistently giving non-insane orders (and since his orders regularly included sending a loose cannon like Miko on missions, I think that's a "not actually" already), it would say something about their Intelligence scores that none of them ever went, "Wait a minute here..."

Y'know, I don't really disagree with the broad thrust of this argument, but... given that tolerating Shojo and Miko's behaviour strikes you as, let's say, suboptimally intelligent, I have to ask why doesn't the total absence of Sending, Teleport or Wind Walk spells?

Well, technically Lacuna's theory is as valid as any other...In that OOTS is fiction and, thus, every single thing about it is equally made up. That said, if Lacuna wants to talk about the story we have, rather then whatever weird contradictory AU they've dreamed up, they need to accept the single authority of the subject. Hint: His name isn't Lacuna.

I haven't, for the most part, been dreaming up some alternate universe- I've just been trying to review an assortment of facts asserted in the canonical storyline and concluded that they're not really compatible with the observed sequence of events from the early strip.

We also have in that strip the full context of why Shojo follows what Lacuna calls an obtuse plan: He can't simply enlist the Order as agents, so he can't use a Sending spell to tell them he needs to bring them to Azure City...

Except that that IS the canon. Eugene WAS the "Being of Light and Good".

Yes, I know. My point in various other discussions is that if Eugene was the BoPLaG, there's like a billion other things he would have been doing differently, given the assortment of spells and resources that were demonstrably available to Shojo and the Guard within the same story, and that Eugene as a high-level wizard could hardly have been ignorant of.

Another of my points of contention is that Shojo doesn't need to hire the Order at all in order to send his paladins to chase Xykon from the ruins of Dorukan's Gate, which would in no way violate their oaths, and certainly knowing of Xykon/RC's survival wouldn't do them any harm. I know what the canon explanation is, I just don't think it makes any sense.

And I mean, sure, I can 'take the characters at their word', but then I have to declare that the text is effectively in a state of mutual contradiction or just nonsensically written when reviewed in hindsight. And so it is for Miko as embedded within the text.

[Peelee]

Sure, but this is a universe where's she's apparently authorised to straight-up execute suspects in the field based on her own judgement and the usage of Detect Evil.

Funnily enough, the people who do the executing are not the same people who do the charging. If she's under her own authority, she can be judge, jury, and executioner, like the Order. If she wants to claim to be part of a legal system (which she explicitly does), then it doesn't work like that.

[Darth Paul]

Confining ourselves to what we know Miko knows... or at least suspects... of the Order's actions...

We know she has heard the account of them blowing up Dorukan's castle; she has heard of Nale and Thog's actions in town, which she misattributes to Elan and Roy; she's heard of Belkar's killing the barbarians (omitting that it was a trial by combat); and she's heard that Roy flung the summoned weasel at the monster, from the weasel's point of view, omitting that it was unintentional on Roy's part.

She also says outright in this strip that she's already intending to execute the OotS!

Do not worry, small weasel. My master has ordered their execution for deeds they have committed against his interests. Soon, they shall taste the bitter fruits of their deeds.

Even if I have to endure a hundred montage sequences, they shall taste my blades. My master has decreed it; the Order of the Stick must die!

That's pretty unambiguous; and it's also NOT what Shojo actually said, as revealed in his flashback explanation.

My point in various other discussions is that if Eugene was the BoPLaG, there's like a billion other things he would have been doing differently, given the assortment of spells and resources that were demonstrably available to Shojo and the Guard within the same story, and that Eugene as a high-level wizard could hardly have been ignorant of.

Another of my points of contention is that Shojo doesn't need to hire the Order at all in order to send his paladins to chase Xykon from the ruins of Dorukan's Gate, which would in no way violate their oaths, and certainly knowing of Xykon/RC's survival wouldn't do them any harm. I know what the canon explanation is, I just don't think it makes any sense.

And I mean, sure, I can 'take the characters at their word', but then I have to declare that the text is effectively in a state of mutual contradiction or just nonsensically written when reviewed in hindsight. And so it is for Miko as embedded within the text.

Are we talking about what Eugene would have been doing, or what you think he should have been doing? That's two very different things. As we're constantly reminded, people in stories do things that we, the audience, look at and think, "I wouldn't have done that; I would have done X, Y, or Z." But doing X, Y, or Z means the story ends there. People don't take the optimal action because they can't look back and see the consequences... they take the actions that seem right at that time.

Sending the paladins to chase Xykon from the ruins of Dorukan's gate means, first of all, that he's been spying on Dorukan's gate, and that's probably a no-no to the average paladin. Second, how does he know where to send them? The Order have to go and see the Oracle to get their next lead on Xykon. You would think Xykon were a sorceror who is hidden from scrying magic or something.

[Lacuna Caster]

Spoiler: Lacuna Matata

Show

<words words words>

What a wonderful phrase!

How can she respect the verdict if she doesn't know the verdict...

I think you're missing my larger contention here, which is that it was pointless to bring back the Order alive if she wasn't going to wait for the trial to conclude and produce a guilty verdict before they were executed.

I find the counterarguments in that thread far more compelling than your arguments, which seem to be based off of too many assumptions. The assumptions are not, in a vacuum, bad ones, but I don't see enough reason to make assumptions instead of ones that fit the story as told.

It's not an assumption to say that, for example, Planar Ally, Wind Walk, Sending and Teleport spells were available to the Guard and/or Lord Shojo, because this is all either directly demonstrated within the text or follows as a logical consequence from other details. I'll fully allow that this wouldn't be obvious to the casual reader- heck, it took me years to cotton to it- but it basically requires an implausible degree of systemic idiocy and/or pettiness on the part of Shojo and everyone in his orbit for things to unfold as they do in the early story.

You're wrong on every account. It wouldn't fit with how Shojo's fake senility is portrayed in general, with how Miko treats the orders that were given in that flashback...

Yes, I know. It's all shockingly inconsistent and implausible and generally bizarre... just not more bizarre than everything else about Shojo's tactics here.

Funnily enough, the people who do the executing are not the same people who do the charging.

In our world, sure. But I see nothing contradictory about the idea that Lord Shojo can bring charges against people and that Miko can also do the same in relation to separate crimes.

In any case, as hamish has pointed out, the author remarked that "Miko has never lied, to the best of our ability to tell"- prior to the trial scene, sure, but if you're arguing that using the word 'charge' was inherently a falsehood because she's attached to a legal system, then I don't see how to square that.