OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[Fish]

So let’s talk instead about that glorious sacrifice. I have some suggestions.

I predict Hilgya will lie, mortally wounded, and say, “I’m sorry for all the things I did wrong, including (but not limited to) adultery, abandonment, fraud, taking revenge on innocent clan members, murder, working for Nale, lying to Durkon, and for years of forum arguments where people defended my actions, actions which were, in the view of the author, evil.”

And then her eyes go to XX, and a dire elephant sits on her, then explodes.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now, that is the spirit of the day. I am still baffled however, by your sustained belief that the Clans are somehow a social elite separate from the rest of dwarven society, rather than a division of said society each segments containing (or not) both elites and commoners.

Presentism, mostly. However, pre-modern (pre-medieval!) gentile relations are not easily analogous to modern capitalistic relations.

[The_Weirdo]

So let’s talk instead about that glorious sacrifice. I have some suggestions.

I predict Hilgya will lie, mortally wounded, and say, “I’m sorry for all the things I did wrong, including (but not limited to) adultery, abandonment, fraud, taking revenge on innocent clan members, murder, working for Nale, lying to Durkon, and for years of forum arguments where people defended my actions, actions which were, in the view of the author, evil.”

And then her eyes go to XX, and a dire elephant sits on her, then explodes.

You know, you seem awfully willing to deprive Kudzu of a mother just so you can keep riding your high horse.

Neither will happen.

Also: adultery? Adultery??? Really??? Are you really arguing that, far beyond the scope of the "should Hilgya take down a sex trafficking ring or should she not" scope, she should apologize for being unfaithful to a husband that was forced upon her at crossbow point???

From high atop that degree of rape culture and morality, you claim moral superiority?

[KorvinStarmast]

Also: adultery?...
{snip}
From high atop that, you claim moral superiority?

I saw no claim of moral superiority. Looks like you put words into Fish's mouth. If you look up the word adultery, it is strictly speaking, under the law (dwarven), what happened with Durkon. (Justifications will be offered, some reasonable and perhaps some otherwise ... but that doesn't change the fact that Fish pointed out).

[The_Weirdo]

I saw no claim of moral superiority. Looks like you put words into Fish's mouth.

The position that Hilgya should apologize for "cheating on and abandoning" Ivan is completely repugnant and implies that she should stay there and be, pretty much, raped, if Ivan saw fit to do so. Sexual availability is not a thing that should be given away by third parties at crossbow point. And we know that because, luckily and for great justice, her clan now lies in shambles, destitute, hopefully forever.

[KorvinStarmast]

The position that Hilgya should apologize for "cheating on and abandoning" Ivan is completely repugnant and implies that she should stay there and be, pretty much, raped, if Ivan saw fit to do so.

This kind of hyperbole does not invite productive discourse. Good day.

[The_Weirdo]

This kind of hyperbole does not invite productive discourse. Good day.

She should not apologize for adultery or abandonment from a marriage she was coerced into. That is an absolute truth. And it is not hyperbole: Fish claimed she should apologize for adultery and abandonment.

Why?

Her entire clan should, between one shift at the mines and another, apologize to her.

[Fish]

If you’re replying to me, Weirdo, you’re wasting your electrons. I’ve long since given up on the idea that a productive conversation will happen to, with, or near you.

[The_Weirdo]

If you’re replying to me, Weirdo, you’re wasting your electrons. I’ve long since given up on the idea that a productive conversation will happen to, with, or near you.

I'm replying to you, all right, for the benefit of everyone else. Because the position that Hilgya should apologize for committing adultery or abandonment against Ivan is nothing short of thinly-veiled rape culture.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, because experience tells us that once Miko was dead, all arguing over her ceased.[/sarcasm]

Grey Wolf

Well, we don’t hear much about Andi these days. Granted she’d not dead but she has dropped out of the comic possibly permanently depending on how the Order gets to the Arctic.

Presentism, mostly. However, pre-modern (pre-medieval!) gentile relations are not easily analogous to modern capitalistic relations.

Is there a modern society, of which I am not aware, we’re only some people belong to Clans and are social elites?

[zimmerwald1915]

Is there a modern society, of which I am not aware, we’re only some people belong to Clans and are social elites?

Did I suggest there was? What I said was that gentile society is not like capitalist society, and that efforts to project the latter onto the former are going to lead to false conclusions.

[Fyraltari]

Did I suggest there was? What I said was that gentile society is not like capitalist society, and that efforts to project the latter onto the former are going to lead to false conclusions.

Then I don’t understand what this has to do with my post that you quoted.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, we don’t hear much about Andi these days. Granted she’d not dead but she has dropped out of the comic possibly permanently depending on how the Order gets to the Arctic.

We also don't hear much about Samantha either, but the problem with the assertion that once Hilgya is gone, we won't be have to argue about this topic again is that we have counterproof of it in, what, two concurrent threads right now? And it only takes the one counterproof, unfortunately.

Now, do I hope it will be the case? Yes. But it is not assured, by any means, no matter the manner of death of Hilgya. Indeed, as much as I think she might die, even her death is by no means a sure bet.

Grey Wolf

[The_Weirdo]

We also don't hear much about Samantha either, but the problem with the assertion that once Hilgya is gone, we won't be have to argue about this topic again is that we have counterproof of it in, what, two concurrent threads right now? And it only takes the one counterproof, unfortunately.

Now, do I hope it will be the case? Yes. But it is not assured, by any means, no matter the manner of death of Hilgya. Indeed, as much as I think she might die, even her death is by no means a sure bet.

Grey Wolf

If you're so worried about the hypothetical "innocent" members of the sex trafficking ring named Firehelm, why do you not care one iota about actual, known innocent Kudzu?

[Ironsmith]

If you're so worried about the hypothetical "innocent" members of the sex trafficking ring named Firehelm, why do you not care one iota about actual, known innocent Kudzu?

Probably because Sigdi's mere presence assures that he'll be fine, and he's almost certainly safer in her hand than in Hylgia's. He's put out rather minimally by any harm that may befall Hylgia.

[woweedd]

...backtracking a little, in response to The Werido’s question about Regeneration: It was explicitly said that no one in the Church of Thor was even able to cast Regenerate. Odin’s Clerics were the only ones high-level enough, and Sidgi was poor enough that not only could she not pay for the spell, she couldn’t even afford to make the trip needed to find the appropriate Cleric.

[The MunchKING]

Hmm, not seeing Sigdi coupling up again, given how she has a close friend who she keeps on rebuffing.

I'll go with the. version I heard somewhere that shipping meant 'relationships" and it could include being friends without needing to have anything sexual going on.

[Ruck]

We could end the system of forced marriages and oppression by simply eradicating all sentient life in the known universe.

I don't think Hilgya will die. More likely, she will learn a valuable lesson about family or some such.

Alternatively, it's been delayed for each of those reasons independently, and she has no problem with further delaying it if the resources involved with regenerating her arm would be better served going towards something else (like saving the world). Which fits perfectly in line with what we know about Sigdi already, given that she used her freshly-acquired wealth to revive five complete strangers rather than do anything for herself. We know from the flashback with Shirra that she's not too proud to accept help, either, only that she feels the need to keep the books even (her gripe was "It's gonna be a bit before I can pay you back", not "I can buy my own dresses, thanks"). At worst, that puts her one "it's okay, ma, you did right by me" speech away from being able to use two-handed weapons again.

She's a Good person. She puts others' needs before her own. It's not that complicated, at least not yet.

Yeah, this. All of the reasons Sigdi has given are immediate, practical concerns in their own right, and don't even indicate she doesn't want to get the arm regenerated. She just, again, doesn't put her arm above the souls of five other dwarves, Durkon leading his own life, or the fate of the world.

I'm sure there's still a chance it'll turn out all along she doesn't want the arm restored, but as I said, I think that would be kind of cruel to Durkon, and also would cross the line from "self-sacrificing to put others first" to "martyr complex pity party."

"My actions are justified because they produce a better outcome than any other action in this particular case,. It's a basic philosophy, act utilitarianism, Jeremy Bentham." - Dr. Jack Griffin, Ph.D

In making sure I had that quote right, I actually found this pretty cool mashup, if you're a fan of The Good Place and AP Bio (both of which I highly recommend if you haven't seen them).

Ooh, I love A.P. Bio. Although it should really be The Heather Show.

[The_Weirdo]

I don't think Hilgya will die. More likely, she will learn a valuable lesson about family or some such.

Such as: there is such a thing as a non-abusive family; it's the one you choose.

[Doug Lampert]

Well, we don’t hear much about Andi these days. Granted she’d not dead but she has dropped out of the comic possibly permanently depending on how the Order gets to the Arctic.

Is there a modern society, of which I am not aware, we’re only some people belong to Clans and are social elites?

Presentism: Uncritical adherence to present-day attitudes, especially the tendency to interpret past events in terms of modern values and concepts. (Only definition from Google.)

Clan: A family, especially a large one. (Second definition from Google, and the first would be excluded by presentism.)

Hence Zim's claim that Presentism is what leads people to think that a rich clan is somehow a separate social elite. If you think of it as a rich family, that's a reasonable conclusion.

[Particle_Man]

My prediction is that the five people Sigdi paid to bring back from Hel's clutches will die, valiantly, and thus get the reward of going to Valhalla. Hilgya will die too and Sigdi and the younger descendants of the "Lucky Five" will raise Kudzu while OOTS saves the world from Xykon and the Snarl and whatever else, and then, finally, Durkon will raise Kudzu.

But we shall see.

I seem to remember there was a time that Sigdi was thought to be a bad mother, but of course that was long before the events of this book.

[Cazero]

Yes, because experience tells us that once Miko was dead, all arguing over her ceased.[/sarcasm]

Hey, you forgot the opening sarcasm tag. You might want to correct that or people might think you were serious there.

[The_Weirdo]

My prediction is that the five people Sigdi paid to bring back from Hel's clutches will die, valiantly, and thus get the reward of going to Valhalla. Hilgya will die too and Sigdi and the younger descendants of the "Lucky Five" will raise Kudzu while OOTS saves the world from Xykon and the Snarl and whatever else, and then, finally, Durkon will raise Kudzu.

But we shall see.

I seem to remember there was a time that Sigdi was thought to be a bad mother, but of course that was long before the events of this book.

Durkon would at least attempt to raise Hilgya in this case. Unless, of course, she chooses to stay in the safety of non-Hel, which is quite possible.

And before anyone asks: if he can cast Regenerate, he can cast Raise Dead or similar.

[The MunchKING]

The position that Hilgya should apologize for "cheating on and abandoning" Ivan is completely repugnant and implies that she should stay there and be, pretty much, raped, if Ivan saw fit to do so.

She's a high-level cleric with a propensity for murder, we've seen no evidence Ivan has class levels. IF he wanted to rape her he wouldn't be physically able to.

We could end the system of forced marriages and oppression by simply eradicating all sentient life in the known universe.

Replace "forced marriage" with "any kind of suffering" and welcome to Final Fantasy Villain 101. I'll be along to kill you after a hundred or so hours of story resolving everyone's personal issues.

[Ironsmith]

I seem to remember there was a time that Sigdi was thought to be a bad mother, but of course that was long before the events of this book.

Out of curiosity, why? If I had to guess, I'd say because of that whole "bury your emotions" thing, but that seems a little flimsy.

Hey, you forgot the opening sarcasm tag. You might want to correct that or people might think you were serious there.

Everything he's said up to this point has been sarcastic. Didn't you know?

[Rrmcklin]

I'd actually agree with The_Weirdo on how "adultery" and "abandonment" of Ivan aren't things Hilgya needs to apologize for, and I think the narrative would agree on that.

I disagree with him about pretty much everything else, including "depriving" Kudzu of Hilgya being a bad thing for him. Because I have seen nothing to indicate that Hilgya being in his life will overall be a good experience for him, and several that makes me think she could easily become a threat to his life. It comes with the whole "her being evil" bit.

Biology might necessitate who gets first crack at raising a kid, but it in no ways dictates who is best for them, or when they should be taken away.

[The_Weirdo]

She's a high-level cleric with a propensity for murder, we've seen no evidence Ivan has class levels. IF he wanted to rape her he wouldn't be physically able to.

I'm not saying Ivan could rape her (though mnd that she was a peasant back then). I'm saying that it is rape culture to claim she should apologize for committing "adultery and abandonment" against a person to whom she was forcibly married.

This isn't Fish arguing she was wrong to try to kill Ivan.

This is Fish arguing she was wrong to have sexual intercourse with other people but Ivan and for leaving Ivan, even peacefully, in the first place.

And that is rape culture.

[Yirggzmb]

I'll go with the. version I heard somewhere that shipping meant 'relationships" and it could include being friends without needing to have anything sexual going on.

I much prefer the platonic version of shipping anyway. (I unashamedly call this "Friend Shipping") The idea that two characters would be really good friends, should they meet. Infinitely better than romantic shipping, in that no one has to get their knickers in a twist about other people's ships. A character can have as many friends as they want, but only poly characters get to say that about romantic partners.

I think Sigdi and O-Chul would get along wonderfully.

[Cazero]

Replace "forced marriage" with "any kind of suffering" and welcome to Final Fantasy Villain 101. I'll be along to kill you after a hundred or so hours of story resolving everyone's personal issues.

Don't forget the casino, minigames and chocobo breeding.

[The_Weirdo]

Don't forget the casino, minigames and chocobo breeding.

And the sidequests!