Mordhau: Living up to the dream?

[NRSASD]

Mordhau, a game billing itself as the most realistic-yet-fun medieval combat simulator to date, has just been released. Has anyone played it yet? What news have people heard about it?

I'm waiting on this one, but I must admit I am intrigued.

[Cespenar]

I had looked into some of its earlier videos (beta or something?) and it looked pretty okay overall, like an upgraded, better looking, debugged version of Chivalry.

I haven't played it though.

[Rynjin]

Same boat as the above. I want it because I liked Chivalry and it just looks like Chivalry 2, but haven't played it yet.

[warty goblin]

Since there are swords, I grabbed this and gave it a whirl this evening. By which I mean I played the tutorial and a team death match against bots.

It seems pretty good. Mouse direction chooses strike direction, with mouse wheel being reserved for thrust. Attacking again in the middle of a strike sets up a second strike which chains from the first; I'm not sure yet how much direction matters in terms of linking animations and move timing though. Parrying is timing based instead of direction based, with the possibility for riposting from the parry. There's also some dynamic sword physics involved; if you attack into an enemy's attack with very good timing you will block it; matching a strike just before it hits chambers the blow and automatically counter-attacks. Not sure if the attack from a chambered blow can be parried yet though. There's also attack cancelling to pull an enemy's parry, and the ability to mutate a strike into a thrust or vice versa. Not a strike into a different strike, or thrust into a different thrust though; like M&B it appears to treat all thrusts as identical.

My biggest gripe is that you start every sword attack from your weapon held in front of you. Like Mount and Blade it's a very strike-heavy combat system, so pretty much every move starts with you hauling the sword or whatever back for a swing, which is not a particularly good way to use most striking weapons. Because of the combo system I suspect a lot of the system mastery comes from learning what direction strikes chain into each other efficiently, so it's not so much bad from a gameplay perspective as a visual/realism one. I consistently feel like I'm about a beat behind where I'd want to be in a sequence of blows because my first move is always to get to where I should have started from. It's a pity, because the stance/closed line concept from For Honor was really good, though I didn't end up particularly liking the combat in that game as it was far too fighting game/set combo based.

Also, like Mount and Blade, the combat is very much focused on strikes. Which is in some ways good because hitting somebody in the face with a whacking great axe is funtimes. But alas, this inevitably seems to mean that spears, once again, suck. Which is probably for the best, otherwise the game would basically skill ceiling out at 'line of dudes with spears' but is still in some quintessential way, sort of sad.

The horse riding is exactly M&B. I mean exactly. Which is all to the good, as M&B nailed that perfectly.

[Cespenar]

Also, like Mount and Blade, the combat is very much focused on strikes. Which is in some ways good because hitting somebody in the face with a whacking great axe is funtimes. But alas, this inevitably seems to mean that spears, once again, suck. Which is probably for the best, otherwise the game would basically skill ceiling out at 'line of dudes with spears' but is still in some quintessential way, sort of sad.

Spears and such (brand name? ) were pretty good at Chiv, especially at group battles where you flanked people a lot. As I haven't played this one yet, I can't say anything, but what makes it suck, if I may ask? Is it the accuracy issue?

[warty goblin]

Got a solid hour or so in with this last night, mostly in PvP. My opinion is evolving upwards. Bots are fine and handy for learning the moves and feel of the game, but they aren't very interesting to fight. It's not that I'm so much better than them - I genuinely suck - but their basic behavior is just run in and start flailing.

MP however is a different story. Right away you get that sense of the five or seven feet between you and the enemy as being dangerous ground. The underlying mechanics aren't particularly realistic, but what emerges from them meshes quite well with my recollection of small group skirmishes in Dagohir - also not realistic - but quite satisfying. Unlike a shooter, your position in the environment matters not all that much, but your position relative to other players is enormously important.

Also in contrast to a shooter, winning a fight is much more satisfying. There's something kind of anonymous about fragging/getting fragged in most shooters; like all it proves is I was a good shot or had the drop or whatever. The skill is almost entirely personal. Winning (or in my case generally losing) an exchange of sword blows in Mordhau however is a lot more... conversational. Although unlike most conversations, there's a solid chance of somebody quite literally losing their head.

Spears and such (brand name? ) were pretty good at Chiv, especially at group battles where you flanked people a lot. As I haven't played this one yet, I can't say anything, but what makes it suck, if I may ask? Is it the accuracy issue?

Basically they feel like kind of cumbersome overgrown swords. Not like greased lightning.

[LongVin]

I played the better awhile back. It was pretty fun at the time. I haven't checked it out recently though.

The learning curve is a little high in it. So if you're looking for a game where you're just going to pop in and start wrecking everyone immediately, that's not happening.

[warty goblin]

I played the better awhile back. It was pretty fun at the time. I haven't checked it out recently though.

The learning curve is a little high in it. So if you're looking for a game where you're just going to pop in and start wrecking everyone immediately, that's not happening.

The learning curve is indeed damn near vertical. Mostly I suspect because judging whether that guy over there can close the gap and hit you is really hard at first. Fortunately getting your limbs repeatedly removed is an excellent teacher, and a couple hours is enough to at least sometimes not get wrecked by every rando on the field. Occasionally you might even kill somebody not by stabbing them in the ass, but actually out-fighting them.

It helps considerably that the progression system isn't actually a nightmare dystopia where time played translates into shockingly better equipment. You get a pretty reasonably sized roster of base classes to pick from, and can customize your own dudes from the get-go. Some of the weapons do cost money, but you get a nice starting pile for doing the tutorial, and basic armor in all the weight classes is free. So you can put together exactly what you want functionally, though you might look like a tool.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, like Mount and Blade, the combat is very much focused on strikes. Which is in some ways good because hitting somebody in the face with a whacking great axe is funtimes. But alas, this inevitably seems to mean that spears, once again, suck. Which is probably for the best, otherwise the game would basically skill ceiling out at 'line of dudes with spears' but is still in some quintessential way, sort of sad.

To be fair, 'line of dudes with spears' was where the skill ceiling was for real combat for couple thousand years, from early Bronze age clear up to Renaissance era. I mean, even all the way up to Napoleonic, 'line of dudes with muskets and bayonets' was the direct counter to heavy Calvary charges and the default formation. It wasn't until the invention of automatic weapons in the American Civil War era and into WW I that the concept became completely obsolete.

[Spacewolf]

Really? I've found Spear + Sheild to be quite an effective combo, don't bother with strikes just stabs, your attacks have better range + speed than sword and axe users meaning you can just keep up a constant barrage of attacks without having to worry about clashes because you can go straight into another attack.

I really wish teams were better at dealing with horses it's annoying seeing someone just doing laps around the battlefield one shotting people, even when they are on your team since they arn't pushing the objective. My character has throwing axes just to stop them charging but a throwing axe to the face doesn't down horses so they can just veer off and try another lap. I haven't tried but do bear traps work on horses?

[warty goblin]

Spears do seem to be pretty highly placed in the current meta. I suspect this will shift as player skill increases, because spear thrusts are going to become much less effective once people get better at chambering attacks. I started deliberately doing this last night, and a good old billhook to the face really makes the short spear + shield guys think better of the engagement. Much trickier to pull off against the crazed blood fiends running around with executioner's swords.

Also, whacking archers and other lightly armored peons with a billhook is amazing.

My experience is that horses are, aside from very occasionally getting killed at random by a rider, pretty much a non-issue. It's not so much that teams are bad at dealing with them, it's that they simply aren't worth dealing with. Most of the time cavalry doesn't even get a kill, and just thumps you with the horse for like 10 damage.

The solution is obvious: all cavalry maps.

[Spacewolf]

Spears do seem to be pretty highly placed in the current meta. I suspect this will shift as player skill increases, because spear thrusts are going to become much less effective once people get better at chambering attacks. I started deliberately doing this last night, and a good old billhook to the face really makes the short spear + shield guys think better of the engagement. Much trickier to pull off against the crazed blood fiends running around with executioner's swords.

Also, whacking archers and other lightly armored peons with a billhook is amazing.

My experience is that horses are, aside from very occasionally getting killed at random by a rider, pretty much a non-issue. It's not so much that teams are bad at dealing with them, it's that they simply aren't worth dealing with. Most of the time cavalry doesn't even get a kill, and just thumps you with the horse for like 10 damage.

The solution is obvious: all cavalry maps.

Usually cav in the games I play go about 28/6 since they always go for the spawns.

As for chambering I've not really found the point for example against rapier and shield as well as spear and sheild combos that seem so popular I can chamber their attacks all day since it's nothing but stabs but I'm not able to follow up fast enough to actually do damage I just have to defend all day until an extra person shows up.

[warty goblin]

Usually cav in the games I play go about 28/6 since they always go for the spawns.

As for chambering I've not really found the point for example against rapier and shield as well as spear and sheild combos that seem so popular I can chamber their attacks all day since it's nothing but stabs but I'm not able to follow up fast enough to actually do damage I just have to defend all day until an extra person shows up.

This is, alas, basically turning into my experience as well. The fundamental problem is that short spear or rapier can launch a new attack from being blocked faster than most blocking weapons can launch an attack from blocking. So basically yeah, you just parry until somebody else shows up, and between the pair of you you can beat the little sod to death. Kicking, which is supposed to counter shields, seems ineffective, since it's got a long launch time and you stop moving. So unless somebody else is there to take the heat it just says "stab me now please." Not entirely sure what the fix is; possibly just increasing the stamina cost of thrusts, so defense until you can disarm them becomes more effective.

You're right about cavalry as well; they're getting increasingly annoying. Sure, every now again one can get lucky and whack one with a halberd on his way by - which is hilarious - but they lack any good counter-play for infantry, beyond hoping they ride into something so you can chop them into little bitty pieces. Which is cool when it happens, but it isn't so much a matter of skill on your part as it the other guy not being a good driver.

And while I'm whining, why are there catapults? I swear a third of the time I get killed by them it's from my own damn team, and they never seem to contribute anything.

On the upside, I'm definitely improving. I'm actually able to kill moderately decent players in one on one combat occasionally now, which is a real blast when it happens.

[AmberVael]

Also, like Mount and Blade, the combat is very much focused on strikes. Which is in some ways good because hitting somebody in the face with a whacking great axe is funtimes. But alas, this inevitably seems to mean that spears, once again, suck. Which is probably for the best, otherwise the game would basically skill ceiling out at 'line of dudes with spears' but is still in some quintessential way, sort of sad.

I haven't played myself, but from what I've watched of it and heard from a good player, spears have a nasty ability to slip around block attempts. I saw a video with him single handedly capturing a point while going on a double digit kill streak with one.
Then again... this is the same guy I watched win multiple battle royale games using only peasant weapons and minimal armor. I guess he's unlikely to be indicative of the typical play experience.

[Rynjin]

Ripostes are pretty counter-intuitive in this game. In most games with a parry/riposte system, ripostes aren't able to be parried, which isn't the case with Mordhau. Same with chambering.

That's probably the main issue with the combat as a whole, really and the source of most weapon imbalances.

[Dienekes]

Ripostes are pretty counter-intuitive in this game. In most games with a parry/riposte system, ripostes aren't able to be parried, which isn't the case with Mordhau. Same with chambering.

That's probably the main issue with the combat as a whole, really and the source of most weapon imbalances.

It does make sense though since they are at least in theory trying to move toward realism. And ripostes very much can be parried in real life. The ability to consistently do that is what separates the beginners from the masters in my experience.

Though realism and weapon balance are also pretty much mutually exclusive. So, they have a tight rope to try and balance on.