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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It does take four rounds, though. A lot can happen to the caster in those four rounds, I'd imagine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Ninth-level spells tend towards the excessive. For another example, wail of the banshee is save-or-die for 17+ people. (It's also a sonic effect and a death effect, so there are more defenses against it as compared to implosion.)
    I guess that makes sense. On paper it sounds wild to me (and that Wail of the Banshee thing sounds positively insane), but I defer to your greater experience and knowledge.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I guess that makes sense. On paper it sounds wild to me (and that Wail of the Banshee thing sounds positively insane), but I defer to your greater experience and knowledge.
    9th level spells are also relatively rare, because it's hard to get that powerful without dying. It is indeed wildly powerful magic, but it's also largely off limits to even most spellcasters. I quotient be surprised if Redcloak turned out to be the most powerful mortal goblin ever.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Whoa, is Implosion really as broken as you guys are making it sound?
    (<--- Not a D&D player)
    It's a ninth-level spell. Same power tier as Wish, Miracle, "I speak the name of someone who was burned to ash and the ash was encased in lead and dropped into an active volcano somewhere I know not where, and they're restored to perfect health and appear in front of me," or, "Every spell other than mine in a 40-foot radius burst is dispelled with no roll, and every magical item in that area that isn't mine has to make a Will save or become nonmagical permanently."
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I guess that makes sense. On paper it sounds wild to me (and that Wail of the Banshee thing sounds positively insane), but I defer to your greater experience and knowledge.
    Something that isn't really well explained is that the entire tenor of the game shifts as it moves through the levels. At early levels, fighters can have a hard time hitting things while casters can run out of spells quickly; at late levels, fighters hitting things is practically a forgone conclusion as long magic hasn't wiped out anything they'd want to hit (or the fighters).

    The closest parallel I can think of is Star Wars' portrayals over the years.
    • The original trilogy has the occasional blaster deflection against small groups and telekinesis
    • The prequel trilogy has larger groups and more acrobatics
    • (3D) The Clone Wars even more of that, to the point of it becoming routine, along with clearly preternatural jumps
    • (2D) Clone Wars has Yoda smashing capital ships together and Mace Windu single-handedly overwhelming an entire battle droid army

    Despite the wild variance, these are all the same setting...as hard as that is to buy when you have Yoda present in all of them and the power level doesn't have any sort of relation to the timeline...but I digress. And I digress well!

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I quotient be surprised if Redcloak turned out to be the most powerful mortal goblin ever.
    That's awfully divisive.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I guess that makes sense. On paper it sounds wild to me (and that Wail of the Banshee thing sounds positively insane), but I defer to your greater experience and knowledge.
    It is pretty insane, but that's just how high-level D&D spellcasters work.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    The "solution" how Durkon beat Durkula. For me, didn't match the setup for the scene, and the explanation given (outside the comic) read like a "rules-lawyering" victory. Basically, kill Durkula with a buffer-overrun....

    Emotionally, it was pretty nice, though.
    Yea, none of the other stuff I perused here I had any issues with, but I was kinda of disappointed by this one.

    1) These guys are going after an epic Lich, an epic-esque monster and a cleric with lvl 9 spell slots, plus minions, and even with proper preparations they can't handle this much lower CR encounter?

    2) What, are they all rolling nat 1s on their will saves now?

    3) Is vampiric dialogue no longer at the speed of thought?

    4) Why is Belkar regaining consciousness? The brooch doesn't negate HP dmg.

    5) So, they lost... but suddenly... they won?

    I don't mind the Durkon overtake solution but I didn't really like how it was executed. It didn't seem to be in line with the lore we had been presented until then and what we would expect of the encounter. Felt too much Deus Ex Mechina to me.

    I don't hate it, but I think that was my least favorite part of the story.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Something that isn't really well explained is that the entire tenor of the game shifts as it moves through the levels. At early levels, fighters can have a hard time hitting things while casters can run out of spells quickly; at late levels, fighters hitting things is practically a forgone conclusion as long magic hasn't wiped out anything they'd want to hit (or the fighters).

    The closest parallel I can think of is Star Wars' portrayals over the years.
    • The original trilogy has the occasional blaster deflection against small groups and telekinesis
    • The prequel trilogy has larger groups and more acrobatics
    • (3D) The Clone Wars even more of that, to the point of it becoming routine, along with clearly preternatural jumps
    • (2D) Clone Wars has Yoda smashing capital ships together and Mace Windu single-handedly overwhelming an entire battle droid army

    Despite the wild variance, these are all the same setting...as hard as that is to buy when you have Yoda present in all of them and the power level doesn't have any sort of relation to the timeline...but I digress. And I digress well!

    That's awfully divisive.
    Power creep evolves with authorial timeline and not narrative timeline. ;)
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Power creep evolves with authorial timeline and not narrative timeline. ;)
    You'd think so; but (2D) Clone Wars was released between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith; and (3D) The Clone Wars was released (as several episodes reformatted as a movie, because someone who was wrong thought that was a good idea) three years after that.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Yea, none of the other stuff I perused here I had any issues with, but I was kinda of disappointed by this one.

    1) These guys are going after an epic Lich, an epic-esque monster and a cleric with lvl 9 spell slots, plus minions, and even with proper preparations they can't handle this much lower CR encounter?

    2) What, are they all rolling nat 1s on their will saves now?

    3) Is vampiric dialogue no longer at the speed of thought?

    4) Why is Belkar regaining consciousness? The brooch doesn't negate HP dmg.

    5) So, they lost... but suddenly... they won?

    I don't mind the Durkon overtake solution but I didn't really like how it was executed. It didn't seem to be in line with the lore we had been presented until then and what we would expect of the encounter. Felt too much Deus Ex Mechina to me.

    I don't hate it, but I think that was my least favorite part of the story.
    1) They know Xykon's spell list, and the spells Durkon*/his vampires could prepare are entirely variable so they could never totally prepare. Also Xykon is one caster whose favorite spell (Meteor Swarm) doesn't even kill Roy in one hit. Not to mention Redcloak, whose CL can be surpassed by V and have his spells countered.

    2) Elan's an idiot so he's low-will, and so is Belkar. Haley only has a +5 on her level-scaling will save bonus as a rogue, with only decent mental ability scores. They don't have to roll a 1 to fail a DC <14 save.

    3) Durkon*, since the fight was over, was devoting his attention to Durkon in his head, and because of the feelings of the memory he was already getting hit with the energies needed for Durkon* to become Durkon.

    4) Belkar wasn't on 0 hit points. You can be on 0 hit points and still be conscious, 0 hit points and dying, or you could just be knocked out without ever going near 0 hp, like when Haley used a sap on Grubwiggler. and at any number of hit points other than 0, damage that doesn't kill you instantly, like the protection from evil charm, has a chance of waking you up, and Scruffy did activate it.

    5) Yep.
    Last edited by Gluteus_Maximus; 2019-05-03 at 07:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    Wow, i can’t believe it, WotC actually made the rules compatible for a situation in which an ape demon is leaping into the air to knock a vampire out of a Poylmorphed T-rex’s jaws who is flying 120 feet above the ground.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Trigak dying suddenly, instead of returning for a long-savored revenge.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Honestly, probably Xykon and Redcloak escaping from the Azure City throne room when they were so close to being defeated.

    I know, I know, it was objectively good for the story. Obviously, we the audience are much better off as a result. But in the moment, I couldn't help but be so upset that Soon couldn't land that last couple of blows. He came SO. CLOSE!
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Honestly, probably Xykon and Redcloak escaping from the Azure City throne room when they were so close to being defeated.

    I know, I know, it was objectively good for the story. Obviously, we the audience are much better off as a result. But in the moment, I couldn't help but be so upset that Soon couldn't land that last couple of blows. He came SO. CLOSE!
    That strip is immortal.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who feels this way, but I didn't like that Hel turned out to be another Evil death goddess. I know this is in keeping with her depiction in Norse myth, but I thought it would have been more interesting if Hel wanted a seat at the Godsmoot because she realized the stuff about TDO and quiddities, and the need to parley with Redcloak. I think it would have provided a more interesting test to Durkon's faith, if he had to choose between the influence of the god whose traditions and beliefs he grew up with, or the one that understood his circumstances when he was thrown into a desperate situation.

    If Hel was at least be Neutral, there could have been an interesting contrast with Malack's (and presumably also Nergal's) intentions. It also would have made his conversation with Malack an interesting bit of foreshadowing, especially the bit about "but no one worships her!" if Durkon was later given a legitimate reason to consider converting to a death goddess... but oh well.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    That strip is immortal.

    Equivalent of giving a kid candy and swiping it away at the last second.
    I didn't think for a second Xykon or Redcloak would die there, for some reason. To me it was obvious they would escape.

    I did wonder whether O-Chul would manage to smash the phylactery later on, though. That scene held more tension for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who feels this way, but I didn't like that Hel turned out to be another Evil death goddess. I know this is in keeping with her depiction in Norse myth, but I thought it would have been more interesting if Hel wanted a seat at the Godsmoot because she realized the stuff about TDO and quiddities, and the need to parley with Redcloak. I think it would have provided a more interesting test to Durkon's faith, if he had to choose between the influence of the god whose traditions and beliefs he grew up with, or the one that understood his circumstances when he was thrown into a desperate situation.

    If Hel was at least be Neutral, there could have been an interesting contrast with Malack's (and presumably also Nergal's) intentions. It also would have made his conversation with Malack an interesting bit of foreshadowing, especially the bit about "but no one worships her!" if Durkon was later given a legitimate reason to consider converting to a death goddess... but oh well.
    Hey, good one! That would have been an awesome idea!
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who feels this way, but I didn't like that Hel turned out to be another Evil death goddess. I know this is in keeping with her depiction in Norse myth, but I thought it would have been more interesting if Hel wanted a seat at the Godsmoot because she realized the stuff about TDO and quiddities, and the need to parley with Redcloak. I think it would have provided a more interesting test to Durkon's faith, if he had to choose between the influence of the god whose traditions and beliefs he grew up with, or the one that understood his circumstances when he was thrown into a desperate situation.

    If Hel was at least be Neutral, there could have been an interesting contrast with Malack's (and presumably also Nergal's) intentions. It also would have made his conversation with Malack an interesting bit of foreshadowing, especially the bit about "but no one worships her!" if Durkon was later given a legitimate reason to consider converting to a death goddess... but oh well.
    Fair opinion, but I don't see how it really counts as a plot twist. Hel was pretty openly presented as evil from her first appearance. There's no twist involved.

    Also kind of weird since we only found out about the quiddity stuff fairly recently, but the Hel and vampire stuff started like six years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    I didn't think for a second Xykon or Redcloak would die there, for some reason. To me it was obvious they would escape.
    ...Of course it was obvious they would escape, no one would reasonably think otherwise. I'm pretty sure the point being made was they just felt bad for Soon (and the others) even though they obviously understood things couldn't go any other way.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-05-04 at 01:59 AM.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Hated, hated, hated the twist at the end of BRitF; finding out that Durkon was actually Durkon* (or Durkon imprisoned inside Greg, if you want to look at it that way). Finding out that Stickworld vampires work the same way as they do in Buffy... a demon expels your soul but has your memories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Hated, hated, hated the twist at the end of BRitF; finding out that Durkon was actually Durkon* (or Durkon imprisoned inside Greg, if you want to look at it that way). Finding out that Stickworld vampires work the same way as they do in Buffy... a demon expels your soul but has your memories.
    I have to agree. The idea of a vampire who is genuinely the original person in every way, but warped by their hunger for blood into doing evil, is far more interesting to me than "demon takes possession of corpse".

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    I also agree. I thought it would be a great way to have character development for Durkon, only to find that the unchanged Durkon is imprisoned inside.

    Now it's OK because Durkon actively defeated the vampire and because we saw his character development before he joined the Order, but I would still have preferred a different way. Still hoping he'll get more development through Hilgya and Kudzu.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I have to agree. The idea of a vampire who is genuinely the original person in every way, but warped by their hunger for blood into doing evil, is far more interesting to me than "demon takes possession of corpse".
    I get what' you are saying, but it is not like the "demon" was a complete stranger since it turned out it was still basically Durkon but without the good bits.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Mine would probably be the fact that Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, who was obviously always meant to be the 7th member of the order and lead them to the main plot, died in some random unimportant cave in the middle of nowhere in his introductory strip and then we spiraled off into some stupid sidequest for over 1000 strips. I don't know why Rich changed his plans for the character midway through writing the strip, but the signs are obviously there.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Hated, hated, hated the twist at the end of BRitF; finding out that Durkon was actually Durkon* (or Durkon imprisoned inside Greg, if you want to look at it that way). Finding out that Stickworld vampires work the same way as they do in Buffy... a demon expels your soul but has your memories.
    I couldn't imagine Edwarkon being the same person as Durkon, for the same reason as Belkar: that's too much of a change, too fast. It's one thing to have magic that hijacks someone and essentially forms a commanding or distorting overlay over his mind, but to have a spell/spell-like ability/"whatever vampirism is" that actually changes your alignment like that looks impossible without destroying the concept of character development.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Mine would probably be the fact that Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, who was obviously always meant to be the 7th member of the order and lead them to the main plot, died in some random unimportant cave in the middle of nowhere in his introductory strip and then we spiraled off into some stupid sidequest for over 1000 strips. I don't know why Rich changed his plans for the character midway through writing the strip, but the signs are obviously there.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I couldn't imagine Edwarkon being the same person as Durkon, for the same reason as Belkar: that's too much of a change, too fast. It's one thing to have magic that hijacks someone and essentially forms a commanding or distorting overlay over his mind, but to have a spell/spell-like ability/"whatever vampirism is" that actually changes your alignment like that looks impossible without destroying the concept of character development.
    I agree. Additionally, from a story perspective, it would seem somewhat detrimental to group dynamics and narrative potential to remove the goodest/lawfullest person, unless there's another shakeup (Hilgya suddenly seeing the light and turning LG... yeah...).

    Also, from my very own personal perspective, I would not have liked another angsty existentialist introspection story. I don't know but I have really had enough stories of corruption and moral decay lately. Yeah yeah, I know Rich's stance on escapism, the state of the world etc. etc., but I have never shared his authorial opinion on a few things, the purpose of storytelling being one of them, and the market really is saturated with this subject matter imo.
    Last edited by terodil; 2019-05-04 at 07:27 AM.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    I think "the vampire is an overriding demon" might be a less commonly used trope than "the vampire starts off as a fundamentally decent human being struggling to keep their animalistic vampiric impulses in check and agonizing over their blood thirst" at this point. In that sense I found it interesting, although I admit I was looking forward to seeing how Durkon in particular dealt with the latter scenario.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2019-05-04 at 07:49 AM.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I think "the vampire is an overriding demon" might be a less commonly used trope than "the vampire starts off as a fundamentally decent human being struggling to keep their animalistic vampiric impulses in check and agonizing over their blood thirst" at this point. In that sense I found it interesting, although I admit I was looking forward to seeing how Durkon in particular dealt with the latter scenario.
    Restoration? I mean, the whole "angst over need to drink human blood" is less powerful when that translates to "give your friend less than a minute of unpleasantness".
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Restoration? I mean, the whole "angst over need to drink human blood" is less powerful when that translates to "give your friend less than a minute of unpleasantness".
    I'm talking in general here, but even with Restoration there would have been ways to make that blood thirst a factor even in OotS. For example, if Durkon felt the urge to drink someone dry, or if he couldn't resist drinking from a particularly tasty civilian or what have you.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    Yeah I was kind of confused about where all that came from with Andi. It seemed out of left field and like an extra villain was needed.
    When things seem to come out of nowhere in this story, I recommend re-reading them and looking for the foreshadowing. Andi's discontent with Bandana is in evidence as early as Tinkertown, if not sooner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    3) Is vampiric dialogue no longer at the speed of thought?
    I don't actually think it ever was. The vampire can lie to Durkon, you know.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    When things seem to come out of nowhere in this story, I recommend re-reading them and looking for the foreshadowing. Andi's discontent with Bandana is in evidence as early as Tinkertown, if not sooner.
    What wasn't shown until some time later was that her discontent was completely irrational. That's what we didn't like, not that she was an antagonist.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    What wasn't shown until some time later was that her discontent was completely irrational. That's what we didn't like, not that she was an antagonist.
    Ah, I see. That said, I don't think there's a rational basis for Andi's intentional disrespect of Bandana as seen in Tinkertown. Also, I think what we do see of Bandana as a captain, she's good enough at the job that any problems with her leadership are sort of by definition irrational.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I don't actually think it ever was. The vampire can lie to Durkon, you know.
    Plus there are times when you think slower than other times.

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