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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    The reveal of Hels plan.

    After all that buildup with Hel and Greg the reveal:

    Behold, my evil masterplan ist to: cast a vote!
    (in an election not planned or initiated by me in which I had the right to vote anyway.
    But not the ability.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    She required a tie with her vote, not counting the lesser deities.
    So one pantheon needs to vote yes, one pantheon needs to vote no, and from her pantheon there need to be exactly 9 votes for no. Otherwise her whole plan would have had zero influence on the outcome.

    I also dont dislike politics als plot points. The politics in the plotlines about Tarquin and Shojo were great. Tarquin is probably my favourite arc of whole oots.
    I just dislike this specific case here.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    She required a tie with her vote, not counting the lesser deities.
    So one pantheon needs to vote yes, one pantheon needs to vote no, and from her pantheon there need to be exactly 9 votes for no. Otherwise her whole plan would have had zero influence on the outcome.
    IIRC, the Giant said she didn't get really lucky with her plan, but rather she formulated her plan based on how she calculated the vote would go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    All hail the dragon.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Yeah, it seems like they have this vote every time a world goes under so I think every god could have listed the Yes/No vote with their eyes closed the day it was called.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Another way to look at it is 'we didn't see what Hel's backup plan for a majority against the world's destruction was, because it was unnecessary'. If it had gone with South/West agreeing to save the world, Durkon* would've kept his mouth shut at the Godsmoot and quietly implemented a plan (maybe making his own bid to destroy Kraagors Gate, or exacerbating the rifts in West/South to force the Pantheons to reconsider) with his vampire henchmen.
    Subverting Dvalins vote is already a plan b; Hermods vote was meant to be the clincher. No reason to believe Hel didn't have a bunch of other plan b's in waiting.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Another way to look at it is 'we didn't see what Hel's backup plan for a majority against the world's destruction was, because it was unnecessary'. If it had gone with South/West agreeing to save the world, Durkon* would've kept his mouth shut at the Godsmoot and quietly implemented a plan (maybe making his own bid to destroy Kraagors Gate, or exacerbating the rifts in West/South to force the Pantheons to reconsider) with his vampire henchmen.
    Subverting Dvalins vote is already a plan b; Hermods vote was meant to be the clincher. No reason to believe Hel didn't have a bunch of other plan b's in waiting.
    And for that matter, destroying all the vampires and removing her ability to directly affect the plot won't mean she loses; she'll still win if the gods destroy the world later in response to Xykon and Redcloak's actions.

    This is the answer to Roy's concern that he might be wrong to keep trying to save the world, at the Godsmoot: why he must not give up.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    IIRC, the Giant said she didn't get really lucky with her plan, but rather she formulated her plan based on how she calculated the vote would go.
    YDRC. Whether "D" stands for "Do" or "Did" is an exercise for the reader.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    As was pointed out in #998, the gods have held this exact vote before, during the Order of the Scribble's day. Between that and knowledge of their personalities and priorities, it is not unreasonable that a hyper-intelligent being would be able to count votes ahead of time. Maybe there were one or two that were uncertain, but that's why she had Durkon wait until it was over.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    No. I am saying nothing about the prophecy; that's all you. Let me try putting it the other way around.

    I think your statement: "Durkon just came from mortals." is no more accurate than would be the statement, "Greg just came from Malack." Both had a body and a soul. Both had the same body. Greg's soul was created by Hel, and Durkon's soul was created by...almost certainly Odin.
    I would like some backing for the bolded bit. To my knowledge neither D&D nor OotS covers where exactly the souls of 'normal' mortals come from. For all we know they could just form naturally in the positive energy plane or get stamped out as a blank template by each pantheon's god of birth/fertility to be shaped entirely by their upbringing.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I would like some backing for the bolded bit. To my knowledge neither D&D nor OotS covers where exactly the souls of 'normal' mortals come from. For all we know they could just form naturally in the positive energy plane or get stamped out as a blank template by each pantheon's god of birth/fertility to be shaped entirely by their upbringing.
    The mortals are specifically created by the gods, being three quiddity beings and all. Presumably that also includes their souls, because why wouldn't it? Whether one god specifically makes them or it's a team effort doesn't matter much for Kish's ultimate point. At least, I don't think it does, if I'm reading them correctly.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    The mortals are specifically created by the gods, being three quiddity beings and all. Presumably that also includes their souls, because why wouldn't it?
    In my reading, a soul occurs as naturally as a body, as if there were some sort of soul mitosis going on. Three-quiddity mortals propagate in order to generate the souls that the gods need but can't directly make by themselves. It is only in a very abstract sense that Durkon or his soul was created by the gods.

    As to Kish's overall point, well, clearly I am just confused. I feel like the Monster in the Dark going "Gate? What gate?" (My next guess is that he means to say Hel's initial influence over Greg's mentality wasn't as significant as Hel makes it out to be. That's a matter of interpretation and, more importantly, only my confused guess.)
    This signature was written by me, Aveline, to indicate that this message was written by me, Aveline.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Phone battery is low, not gonna bother with the links. I may format it better when I get to a charger or full computer. Building mine.
    Formatted. Also, I have no buildings. Bolding is mine, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    So if I am reading this right (if even only vaguely right) is that the Gods created the world, souls etc using there own power.
    That the destruction of souls places that power beyond use, where converting a soul to your cause provides you with that power.

    So from a betting perspective the gods are betting that they can convert more souls to there cause than they lose - and so have a net gain, i.e mortals are nothing but poker chips to them
    Yes, exactly. Though I would add that the process of being born and living a life increases the power available in the soul. So it's less like poker (where everyone starts with a fixed amount of cash and then they compete to trade it around), and more like the stock market (where everyone competes to pick the stocks that will grow the most before being cashed out).
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-05 at 07:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    I feel like Rich said somewhere that one of Hel's obligations has to do with making vampire souls, or something to that effect. Given what we know of Odin and Thor's positions within the pantheon, I think it's more likely that if any of the Norse gods created Durkon's soul, it would likely be Frigg or Freya. They're the Earth and Fertility goddesses, after all.

    Nitpicking aside, I agree with Kish's point.
    Last edited by Aspheric; 2019-05-05 at 07:06 PM.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspheric View Post
    I feel like Rich said somewhere that one of Hel's obligations has to do with making vampire souls, or something to that effect.
    Yes, I posted it earlier, but for the benefit of having both on one page....
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Hel does not have rightful dominion over Durkon's soul as part of her normal assignment of dishonored souls, however, because Durkon did in fact die in battle. She got involved because she is also, separately, the Northern deity of undeath, and one of her "duties" is making the evil spirits for all Northern vampires. The vampirization process basically jammed up the normal disposition of Durkon's soul by trapping it inside the undead body. Where Durkon's actual soul ends up will not be determined until/unless it is freed. It's a like a naturally occurring Trap the Soul spell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    All hail the dragon.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Phone battery is low, not gonna bother with the links. I may format it better when I get to a charger or full computer. Building mine.
    Formatted. Also, I have no buildings. Bolding is mine, though.
    Well, let's build you some! The ninjas have been getting restless, I need a project to keep them busy or they might start plotting to overthrow me. (Actually, they do that all the time anyway, it's the sign of a good ninja.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Well, let's build you some!
    I prefer to just take what's already there. I could use the Chrysler Building, I do very much like art deco architecture...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    All hail the dragon.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I prefer to just take what's already there. I could use the Chrysler Building, I do very much like art deco architecture...
    I'm not too keen on the idea of conquering Chrysler, just to get a building... The ninjas like the idea, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I'm not too keen on the idea of conquering Chrysler, just to get a building...
    Just make sure you Dodge. *kick*. Bonus points if you get the reference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
    All hail the dragon.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Just make sure you Dodge.
    Will we have to Ford many streams or rivers? Maybe on our way to Plymouth?
    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2019-05-05 at 11:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Ah, I see. That said, I don't think there's a rational basis for Andi's intentional disrespect of Bandana as seen in Tinkertown. Also, I think what we do see of Bandana as a captain, she's good enough at the job that any problems with her leadership are sort of by definition irrational.
    Just so that we are clear:
    Do you think that Bandana was already the perfect captain at the start of her story, and that she did not learn any leadership lesson in this story?
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Just so that we are clear:
    Do you think that Bandana was already the perfect captain at the start of her story, and that she did not learn any leadership lesson in this story?
    Don't ask me questions where you put words in my mouth.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Will we have to Ford many streams or rivers? Maybe on our way to Plymouth?
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    The ones that most disappointed me are related to hyper-derailing topics. I'll leave it at: I'm not rabid as the most vocal detractors, but I think things could have been handled better on a few fronts with them.

    Outside of those?

    How Durkon beats the Vampire. Required the Order to fail in a scenario that was very unlikely for them to fail, the revelation about Hurak and the prophecy basically* went unused, and I'm not sure I really buy that the Vampire didn't have the knowledge necessary to make inferences to that degree. There was a lot of work put into that set-up, but my final reaction after a moment to calm down was just relief that "okay this vampire business is over" and not "that was an awesome triumph."

    * Yes, it gets referenced in the afterlife. But it was presented as a thing that should have been earth-shatteringly important to the saving of Durkon and it's basically an after-thought that he could have discovered and handled later at no real detriment as long as it was before Redcloak.
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2019-05-06 at 04:33 AM.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    From that
    They're vampires. This is what vampires are: a negative energy consciousness created in the shape of your own worst impulses, stuffed into your dead body to animate it.
    I like that homebrew vampire concept.
    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    After all that buildup with Hel and Greg the reveal:

    Behold, my evil masterplan ist to: cast a vote!
    was quite underwhelming.
    Yes it was, though I did recall Roy observing "we really don't know what is going on."

    Belkar breaks the fourth wall and observes the same when they see the water in the snarlgate
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-05-06 at 07:11 AM.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    From that
    I like that homebrew vampire concept.
    kind f like leeches.
    Brain leeches.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Another way to look at it is 'we didn't see what Hel's backup plan for a majority against the world's destruction was, because it was unnecessary'. If it had gone with South/West agreeing to save the world, Durkon* would've kept his mouth shut at the Godsmoot and quietly implemented a plan (maybe making his own bid to destroy Kraagors Gate, or exacerbating the rifts in West/South to force the Pantheons to reconsider) with his vampire henchmen.
    Subverting Dvalins vote is already a plan b; Hermods vote was meant to be the clincher. No reason to believe Hel didn't have a bunch of other plan b's in waiting.
    Sure, no problem with that.
    It would even make sense that the whole plan we see is not even the mainplan, just a remote backup plan that she wants to use in case there just happens to be a tie.
    Or that she just was able to predict the votes for whatever reasons (some examples listed here).

    But we cant know or expect any of this at the time of the reveal. We didnt know that there have been countless worlds and probably votes already (which was a fantastic twist in my opinion. one of the best panels of all time, slowly scrolling down and seeing all those markers... brilliant).
    There is no expection of the gods or specificall Hel being hyperintelligent. If anything they mostly seem kind of goofy and dumb. Hel falling for Lokis deal, none of the gods thinking of the consequences of the deal when ending the world (ending the world was no surprise for any of them since they did that countless times before, so they all had a long long time to think about that), Dvalin forgetting a simple "a vote doesnt count if it is the result of any kind of magical influence or otherwise not given freely" rule, Odin being insane most of the time, Thors automated prayer service, Thor being distracted in the middle of a battle by a prayer, Hel giving away her plan instead of claiming any other motive for her vote etc.


    The consequence is that for me the reveal of her plan did not work as a twist. Because it does not really fit with what was known to that point. Not an "ah this makes sense now" moment, more like "this is supposed to be her plan? Why? How can this work?"

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Dvalin forgetting a simple "a vote doesnt count if it is the result of any kind of magical influence or otherwise not given freely" rule
    Yeah, he really should have set up something to prevent that, like maybe a magic dispelling barrier that with armed guards inside as the voting place for casting a secret vote known only to people sequestered at the Godsmoot, which would require an incredibly unlikely and complex series of events (not to mention wholly unprecedented) to be able to circumvent.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aveline View Post
    In my reading, a soul occurs as naturally as a body, as if there were some sort of soul mitosis going on. Three-quiddity mortals propagate in order to generate the souls that the gods need but can't directly make by themselves. It is only in a very abstract sense that Durkon or his soul was created by the gods.

    As to Kish's overall point, well, clearly I am just confused. I feel like the Monster in the Dark going "Gate? What gate?" (My next guess is that he means to say Hel's initial influence over Greg's mentality wasn't as significant as Hel makes it out to be.
    Rather, I think you are vastly overplaying how much Hel weights "your dark spirit was born in my hall." She expects unquestioning obedience and total self-abnegation from everyone who serves her in any capacity: diseases, Garm, undead, the demigod of frost giants. She's just lucky where Greg is concerned that he's just as Lawful as Durkon, freely choosing to serve instead of telling her to go to herself as a Chaotic vampire might.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Don't ask me questions where you put words in my mouth.
    Ah, I see.

    The point of the *question* was to find out your position.
    Hence, the question mark.

    If the concept of a question is above or below you, there's not much sense in conversation.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck
    Don't ask me questions where you put words in my mouth.
    Ah, I see.

    The point of the *question* was to find out your position.
    Hence, the question mark.

    If the concept of a question is above or below you, there's not much sense in conversation.
    Bolding mine.

    Also, your question was very leading.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-06 at 08:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    If the concept of a question is above or below you, there's not much sense in conversation.
    The objection was to "Did you think she was already perfect"

    when Ruck never used that kind of phrasing in the first place, only "good enough"


    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I think what we do see of Bandana as a captain, she's good enough at the job that any problems with her leadership are sort of by definition irrational.
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