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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yeah, he really should have set up something to prevent that, like maybe a magic dispelling barrier that with armed guards inside as the voting place for casting a secret vote known only to people sequestered at the Godsmoot, which would require an incredibly unlikely and complex series of events (not to mention wholly unprecedented) to be able to circumvent.
    Yeah, but how likely is it that such a thing would happen in this very comic and that we'd get a full description of how it is made to happen?
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-05-06 at 08:39 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yeah, he really should have set up something to prevent that, like maybe a magic dispelling barrier that with armed guards inside as the voting place for casting a secret vote known only to people sequestered at the Godsmoot, which would require an incredibly unlikely and complex series of events (not to mention wholly unprecedented) to be able to circumvent.
    It doesnt really matter how unlikely you think this series of events is, but if it has obvious loopholes that would have been easy to fix. If it has the latter its probably stupid.
    Its like putting a magic dice in front of it, and saying anyeone who rolls 256 20s in a row is allowed to do whatever he wants to the dwarfs, otherwise he has to obey the laws. Pretty unlikely to happen, but also pretty stupid. How about NOT putting that dice there?

    And the actual thing has several obvious loopholes. If I would present this as a problem for my dnd group, they probably wouldnt take 5 minutes to ask if there is anything stopping them to just charm people between the barriers.
    And the solution is also super obvious. No magic or anything requires, just a general law "vote must follow the spirit of a fair and independent vote, without tampering" or something similar. This solution still might not be perfect, there might be ways around it... I would expect that a smart god can come up with a much better wording if he spends more then the 30 seconds that I did. But it would already fix most of the loopholes with basically zero effort.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    It doesnt really matter how unlikely you think this series of events is, but if it has obvious loopholes that would have been easy to fix. If it has the latter its probably stupid.
    Its like putting a magic dice in front of it, and saying anyeone who rolls 256 20s in a row is allowed to do whatever he wants to the dwarfs, otherwise he has to obey the laws. Pretty unlikely to happen, but also pretty stupid. How about NOT putting that dice there?

    And the actual thing has several obvious loopholes. If I would present this as a problem for my dnd group, they probably wouldnt take 5 minutes to ask if there is anything stopping them to just charm people between the barriers.
    And the solution is also super obvious. No magic or anything requires, just a general law "vote must follow the spirit of a fair and independent vote, without tampering" or something similar. This solution still might not be perfect, there might be ways around it... I would expect that a smart god can come up with a much better wording if he spends more then the 30 seconds that I did. But it would already fix most of the loopholes with basically zero effort.
    As Gonthor theorized, there is a possibility that the loopholes were there by design, in case the builders of this place wanted to do some quiet vote tampering of their own.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    IIRC, the Giant said she didn't get really lucky with her plan, but rather she formulated her plan based on how she calculated the vote would go.
    To be fair to those readers, if the author has to clarify a vital plot point out of the comic, it was not automatically apparent within the comic itself. Being a master manipulator is a key element of Hel's intended characterization and plot significance, not mere trivia. She certainly seems lucky rather than skilled... But that could have been fixed by having other undead servants in place to aid the Vampire at various points, operating under the very noses of the other deities. Getting Durkon woukd simply be a stroke of luck to move forward these other plans. Evil conspiracies have a long and (ig)noble history in fiction, she'd be in fine company.

    The anticlimactic plot point that irritated me the most was the final battle with Durkula. It looked to be an epic fight that would show how all the Order members had grown and demonstrated how Durkon's ability to learn and grow would allow him to lead the vampire to its destruction, preferably at some combination of Roy and Belker's blades (both being the most impacted by Durkon's death). What we actually got... was the Order's brilliant plan utterly shredded with absolutely no finesse on the part of the vampires; party members dying, dead, or hypnotized; and a rather sappy finale that shouldn't have worked on a ruthless, vile mass-murdering spirit of death and destruction that had never shown any indication of caring that Sigdi existed, let alone that she had made such a sacrifice.

    Now, that last point could still have worked, had there been any indication that the vampire was indirectly vulnerable to Durkon's memories. Say, for example, that Durkon realizes the Vampire spirit had started talking like Durkon when he didn't need to, or reminisced about past memories that weren't his own. Something to clue us in that the Vampire's essence in Durkon was like water filling a jug, taking on the shape of its container. But we didn't have that at all. The "speed of thought" means Durkon can't delay the vampire or trick him directly; it mocked his family dinners and disregarded any display of affection or community; it failed to realise that mocking Roy's brother's death was something Durkon would never do; and was perfectly willing to damn countless millions of sapient beings to torment or oblivion in Hel's name, which Durkon, even at his worst moment, would never seriously have actually done. No prior comic indicated the Vampire would do anything about Sigdi's sacrifice except mock her perceived stupidity, finish slaughtering the Order, and then turn his attention to Dvalin's summit.
    Last edited by Paleomancer; 2019-05-06 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Grammar

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    And the actual thing has several obvious loopholes. If I would present this as a problem for my dnd group, they probably wouldnt take 5 minutes to ask if there is anything stopping them to just charm people between the barriers.
    Are any of them playing dwarven spellcasters capable of casting charm? Because the "obvious solution" you've offered doesn't seem to work generically.

    And of course, what are the chances that the one dwarf in your gaming group capable of casting charm manages to survive on their own, with one single low-level charmed dwarf by his side, against the onrush of all the other guards? And how does that "obvious solution" in any way alter the result of the vote?

    In short: you are deluding yourself into thinking that it is easier than it is. Most players don't play vampires, because they are OP in this specific situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    It doesnt really matter how unlikely you think this series of events is, but if it has obvious loopholes that would have been easy to fix.
    If it doesn't matter how unlikely I think it is, then to play fair it doesn't matter how obvious you think it is (as GW also helpfully demomstrates). To compund on that, the council very likely rules (or ruled) on more than just Godsmoot tiebreakers, and as the Exexarch pointed out, it was possibly designed in a way to game that system. That the stakes were never expected to be as high as "this can end the world" is hardly their fault. If I design a home security system, I'm not going to be basing it off the idea that it will one day be a safe house for the FBI, I'm going to base it off that the Joneses picked the Silver Plan.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-06 at 09:51 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    Now, that last point could still have worked, had there been any indication that the vampire was indirectly vulnerable to Durkon's memories. Say, for example, that Durkon realizes the Vampire spirit had started talking like Durkon when he didn't need to, or reminisced about past memories that weren't his own. Something to clue us in that the Vampire's essence in Durkon was like water filling a jug, taking on the shape of its container. But we didn't have that at all. The "speed of thought" means Durkon can't delay the vampire or trick him directly; it mocked his family dinners and disregarded any display of affection or community; it failed to realise that mocking Roy's brother's death was something Durkon would never do; and was perfectly willing to damn countless millions of sapient beings to torment or oblivion in Hel's name, which Durkon, even at his worst moment, would never seriously have actually done. No prior comic indicated the Vampire would do anything about Sigdi's sacrifice except mock her perceived stupidity, finish slaughtering the Order, and then turn his attention to Dvalin's summit.
    I think you're wrong about this. While it's true that we didn't see the vampire being moved by Durkon's memories as such, we did see him taking a particular interest in them beyond what was immediately useful for his purposes, to the point that all the mockery could be construed as the vampire pretending he hadn't become emotionally invested. We saw him wishing to avenge Durkon on the other dwarves. We also saw him picking up Durkon's speech patterns. Another big clue was Malack completely blurring or removing the line between himself and his mortal host, talking about his host's relationship with his brothers as if it had been his own. OOTS vampires are not devoid of feelings, it would seem.

    It's true that there was a considerable gap between what I described above and the vampire's catatonic state during the fight, and I can see why some readers would feel it doesn't work. Personally I thought it worked very well, but yours is not an unreasonable point of view.
    Last edited by hroşila; 2019-05-06 at 09:54 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    Now, that last point could still have worked, had there been any indication that the vampire was indirectly vulnerable to Durkon's memories. Say, for example, that Durkon realizes the Vampire spirit had started talking like Durkon when he didn't need to
    You mean somethin’ like like that?

    Also being a master manipulator has never been part of Hel’s characterization, she is indeed quite the impulsive dolt who doomed her own plan by gloating prematurely as Loki reminded us. But she doesn’t need to be one to predict how people will vote in a vote they have held literal billions of times before.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-05-06 at 10:00 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But she doesn’t need to be one to predict how people will vote in a vote they have held literal billions of times before.
    Indeed. Just from the way the Gods voted and justified themselves during the Godsmoot, I can guess what many of them would normally vote in a given situation.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-05-06 at 10:07 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    And the solution is also super obvious. No magic or anything requires, just a general law "vote must follow the spirit of a fair and independent vote, without tampering" or something similar.
    To be verified--with no magic required--how exactly?
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    To be verified--with no magic required--how exactly?
    Godly scrying, maybe. Probably not an option while he was alive and made the law, though.
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I think you're wrong about this. While it's true that we didn't see the vampire being moved by Durkon's memories as such, we did see him taking a particular interest in them beyond what was immediately useful for his purposes, to the point that all the mockery could be construed as the vampire pretending he hadn't become emotionally invested. We saw him wishing to avenge Durkon on the other dwarves. We also saw him picking up Durkon's speech patterns. Another big clue was Malack completely blurring or removing the line between himself and his mortal host, talking about his host's relationship with his brothers as if it had been his own. OOTS vampires are not devoid of feelings, it would seem.

    It's true that there was a considerable gap between what I described above and the vampire's catatonic state during the fight, and I can see why some readers would feel it doesn't work. Personally I thought it worked very well, but yours is not an unreasonable point of view.
    Thank you for your reasoned reply, you also make a reasonable argument for why you think it works and where foreshadowing was presemt. I guess I am a firm believer in setting up things for your readers in the comic itself, and I felt that it was not done throughout enough to adequately foreshadow the outcome. We needed more small victories for Durkon, mental skirmishes that paralleled the Order whittling down the vampires, down to some kind of two-way coup de grace between Durkon within and the Order without. That would have been gripping and intense, allowing Durkon to aid his comrades, regain his freedom, and truly grow beyond his tragic past, without the rest of the order being so unceremoniously crushed. Frankly, my disappointment is that Durkon and the Order deserved a better climax than what they actually got.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You mean somethin’ like like that?

    Also being a master manipulator has never been part of Hel’s characterization, she is indeed quite the impulsive dolt who doomed her own plan by gloating prematurely as Loki reminded us. But she doesn’t need to be one to predict how people will vote in a vote they have held literal billions of times before.
    As you and hroşila note, there was some foreshadowing for Durkon's impact on the Vampire, and I concede that point to you. I still feel that promising plotline was insufficiently developed. I honestly cannot see why such a self-absorbed creature would care about what Sigdi did - the comparatively more "reasonable" Malack had no regrets for having eaten his host's brothers, even as he mourned his "children," and later sought to make more (his vampirism was a genuinely great plot twist, by the way - he was a great villain, much as is Redcloak - the banality of evil makes for the best villains in my opinion).

    As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...
    Last edited by Paleomancer; 2019-05-06 at 11:43 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...
    Thor stated very clearly that Hel was getting loopy from the lack of souls and worship she gets in this cycle. Despite holding dominion over dwarves' souls, she barely gets anything from it because almost all of them die honorably. She's not a 'lucky idiot' or a 'brilliant chessmaster'.
    She's desperate. She put all her eggs in this basket because it's the only way she saw to make up for the unfairness she feels she suffers (Do remember that she's evil).
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-05-06 at 11:45 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...
    "Sway over the dwarves by default" was the way Loki put it to trick her into an agreement that would result in her getting very few souls. Not a phrase that evokes "Hel is truly smart and dangerous" in my mind.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Are any of them playing dwarven spellcasters capable of casting charm? Because the "obvious solution" you've offered doesn't seem to work generically.

    And of course, what are the chances that the one dwarf in your gaming group capable of casting charm manages to survive on their own, with one single low-level charmed dwarf by his side, against the onrush of all the other guards? And how does that "obvious solution" in any way alter the result of the vote?

    In short: you are deluding yourself into thinking that it is easier than it is. Most players don't play vampires, because they are OP in this specific situation.

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    Its not about how easy it is, but about how obvious the loophole is. Rolling 256 20s in a row is also not easy. Still a stupid loophole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If it doesn't matter how unlikely I think it is, then to play fair it doesn't matter how obvious you think it is (as GW also helpfully demomstrates). To compund on that, the council very likely rules (or ruled) on more than just Godsmoot tiebreakers, and as the Exexarch pointed out, it was possibly designed in a way to game that system. That the stakes were never expected to be as high as "this can end the world" is hardly their fault. If I design a home security system, I'm not going to be basing it off the idea that it will one day be a safe house for the FBI, I'm going to base it off that the Joneses picked the Silver Plan.
    The "you" in my statement is misplaced there, my apologies. I was not trying to devalue your opinion, just wanted to say that it doesnt really matter what anyone thinks how unlikely it is, thus there is no value in discussing it. The point is not "my opinion" vs "your opinion", but "unlikely" vs "obvious and easy to fix".
    Leaving obvious loopholes in that are easy to fix is just stupid of Dvalin, and not a sign of hyperintelligence.
    The security system is already extremely complex and expensive, so they must assign a lot of value to its security. So anyone with half a brain that actually wants it secure should at least invest an absolute tiny minimum of effort to close the open loopholes. Doesnt matter what you actually want to secure it against.

    I like the Exarchs explanation that its on purpose... its a good explanation for the actual loopholes. But that doesnt excuse Dvalins to rely on such obvious flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    To be verified--with no magic required--how exactly?
    The vote does not magically force Dvalin to do anything. He swore an oath to obey the will of the clans when he was alive. Its only his decision to still follow this oath and only his decision to accept the vote of dwarfs that are dominated by vampires as "will of the clans". No magic involved here. The only thing that is required is a rule that a tampered vote doesnt count. Which should be obvious for a lawful being anyway.
    As for how he knows that the vote would be tampered with: in this specific case because the vampires already admitted it with lots of witnesses. In general because even the lowest demigod can decide to sense everything in 1-mile radius around one his followers, at two locations at once. As soon as there is a vote he can just check if everything is ok.
    Last edited by Myta; 2019-05-06 at 11:51 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...
    Neither. I've no idea where you are getting either of those extremes. Her plan is as straight and as subtle as a battleaxe to the face. She got a high-level cleric in a freak accident, and saw her chance to vote to destroy the world. She could predict that she could have a draw, and thus knew that she'd have to get some of the minor deities to a) participate and b) vote her way (note that there is a lot more demigod representatives than usual, presumably all the ones that voted Hel's way plus the one that almost did).

    That's it, really. Everything else flows from that straightforward, spur of the moment plan. Greg trying to get himself taken to the place, Greg then coming up with a way to pervert Dvalin's vote? That's not on Hel. She doesn't much care for those details. Her plan deals with the divine side of things. Greg with the worldly ones.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Leaving obvious loopholes in that are easy to fix is just stupid of Dvalin, and not a sign of hyperintelligence.
    Or a sign that someone did try to fix the problem, and it caused its own issues down the line.

    I remain mystified by the general assertion that there are stupid designs and that there are easy fixes. Neither of those is true, under even the most basic assumptions that make the design make sense. And as always, if you are going to make assumptions, you should make them so that the canon makes more sense, not less.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-05-06 at 11:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    The vote does not magically force Dvalin to do anything. He swore an oath to obey the will of the clans when he was alive. Its only his decision to still follow this oath and only his decision to accept the vote of dwarfs that are dominated by vampires as "will of the clans". No magic involved here. The only thing that is required is a rule that a tampered vote doesnt count. Which should be obvious for a lawful being anyway.
    As for how he knows that the vote would be tampered with: in this specific case because the vampires already admitted it with lots of witnesses.
    None of whom include gods, remember? It was spelled out that the gods could only hear each other. What the mortals and the undead did and said wasn't anything the gods were paying attention to.
    In general because even the lowest demigod can decide to sense everything in 1-mile radius around one his followers, at two locations at once. As soon as there is a vote he can just check if everything is ok.
    So, with magic, after all? I'm also wondering where you're getting the presence of a cleric of Dvalin at the Council vote--particularly, but not limited to, one who hasn't been turned into a vampire (and thus trapped in their corpse, no longer a follower of Dwalin but also not showing up at the afterlife) in the last few minutes.
    Last edited by Kish; 2019-05-06 at 12:23 PM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    Thank you for your reasoned reply, you also make a reasonable argument for why you think it works and where foreshadowing was presemt. I guess I am a firm believer in setting up things for your readers in the comic itself, and I felt that it was not done throughout enough to adequately foreshadow the outcome. We needed more small victories for Durkon, mental skirmishes that paralleled the Order whittling down the vampires, down to some kind of two-way coup de grace between Durkon within and the Order without. That would have been gripping and intense, allowing Durkon to aid his comrades, regain his freedom, and truly grow beyond his tragic past, without the rest of the order being so unceremoniously crushed. Frankly, my disappointment is that Durkon and the Order deserved a better climax than what they actually got.


    As you and hroşila note, there was some foreshadowing for Durkon's impact on the Vampire, and I concede that point to you. I still feel that promising plotline was insufficiently developed. I honestly cannot see why such a self-absorbed creature would care about what Sigdi did - the comparatively more "reasonable" Malack had no regrets for having eaten his host's brothers, even as he mourned his "children," and later sought to make more (his vampirism was a genuinely great plot twist, by the way - he was a great villain, much as is Redcloak - the banality of evil makes for the best villains in my opinion).

    As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...
    As Grey Wolf points out Hel is not enacting a centuries-in-the-making masterplan she is making it up as she goes and the better half of the plan is Durkon*'s doing. She's literally just trying something that might work and carries no-risk to herself.

    As for Durkon*'s fate... Well two things, Malack and Durkon* are very different in one regard: age. Malack was two-hundred year old and Durkon*, while talking and acting like an adult is a week-old newborn. He says himself that the memory absorption process takes months. Now let's ask the question: who is Durkon* and why is he doing what he is doing? He is a spirit who had no past before possessing Durkon and the first memory he received, his first experience of the world was Durkon's anger and feelings of betrayal. Without any life to process that, as Durkon puts it, he understands that the world is a place of hurt and pain, that is why he is evil. When he experienced Durkon's memories of being taught that Thor is Good and that dwarves look out for one another he could remember durkon's exile and could only conclude that they were liars. Indeed like all people who realize how terrible their behaviour is, he thinks that everybody else is an hypocrite and they are all just as bad as he is, that is the core of his "you are who you are on your worst day" narrative, to justify his own actions.

    And now, take a look at his reaction to Sigdi's actions, he isn't moved he doesn't cry out : "What a shining example of good, I must be like her!" He is confused and angry, he yells that there is no logic to this. Why? Because his worldview has just been shattered, because he has been shown someone who faced with a difficult choice took the high road. He is lost, much like Javert from Les Miserables when spared by Valjean, his world has been turned upside down as his preconceptions were shattered and he is desperate for a way to make sense of the world again. But unlike Javert, who could only find peace in death, he is offered a way: Durkon who went through this and has lived with that for decades is right there promising to give him the means to understand. so he takes it.

    And suddenly he flooded with Durkon's life-journey, the journey he didn't have, the journey that would allow him to move past Durkon's worst moment, just like Durkon himself did. And so he does.

    Malack had no regret for killing his brothers because Malack's story is entirely different,he had time to take in all of his host's memories at his own pace, digest them so-to-speak, and incorporate them into his worldview. Which is why he was only affected so much that he could genuinely love his children but not to the point of not being evil.
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    Thor stated very clearly that Hel was getting loopy from the lack of souls and worship she gets in this cycle. Despite holding dominion over dwarves' souls, she barely gets anything from it because almost all of them die honorably. She's not a 'lucky idiot' or a 'brilliant chessmaster'.
    She's desperate. She put all her eggs in this basket because it's the only way she saw to make up for the unfairness she feels she suffers (Do remember that she's evil).
    That may be... But desperation still doesn't reconcile the incongruity between the intellect needed to pull off her scheme and her seemingly obvious lack thereof.

    As an aside: why should anyone care one jot that she isn't getting her centennial allowance of souls and worship as part of this balanced religion? Thor speaks of it as an excuse... when frankly it isn't one. Then again, the whole godly diet thing is just appalling from beginning to end (like Faerun's Wall of the Faithless).
    2B or not 2B, that is... a really inane question

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    That may be... But desperation still doesn't reconcile the incongruity between the intellect needed to pull off her scheme and her seemingly obvious lack thereof.
    Again: no idea why you are declaring that it takes intelligence to come up with "tell my preist to vote for me, and call up minor deities to do the same".

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    As an aside: why should anyone care one jot that she isn't getting her centennial allowance of souls and worship as part of this balanced religion? Thor speaks of it as an excuse... when frankly it isn't one. Then again, the whole godly diet thing is just appalling from beginning to end (like Faerun's Wall of the Faithless).
    ...

    That says more about you than it does about the comic. It is not that shocking that people worry about other members of their family, no matter how much they dislike them.

    Also, I see nothing appalling about the godly sources of sustenance. You may want to stop asserting such things by fiat. They are leading you astray.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Bolding mine.

    Also, your question was very leading.
    Even if it was leading, he could easily have said: "No that was not what I was saying, you understood me wrong here."

    Or simply:
    "No"

    So I don't get his anger.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The objection was to "Did you think she was already perfect"

    when Ruck never used that kind of phrasing in the first place, only "good enough"
    Well read the part you quoted again.
    If any (!!!!!) problems with her leadership would per definition (!!!!) be irrational, would that not logically require her leadership to be perfect in the first place?



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  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Even if it was leading, he could easily have said: "No that was not what I was saying, you understood me wrong here."
    There is no "even if it was leading". It was most definitely a leading question. Which indicates a lack of good faith in the person writing the question. Reacting to a leading question like Ruck did is understandable.

    For the canonical example, if someone asks you "when did you stop beating your mom?", sure, there are ways to answer that question. But it is far more natural to be offended at the implications, and to suspect the person asking the question is not interested in honest debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    None of whom include gods, remember? It was spelled out that the gods could only hear each other. What the mortals and the undead did and said wasn't anything the gods were paying attention to.
    There are tons of possibilities to give this information to Dvalin. There were many high ranking clerics of basically all gods available as witness. The information is already spread to the dwarfs, also with many clerics present. They could use commune, sending, or simply organize large prayers depending how that works here. We have already seen several examples of gods easily seeing whats going on even when its not really important. Durkon even personally talked to Thor since the event.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    So, with magic, after all? I'm also wondering where you're getting the presence of a cleric of Dvalin at the Council vote--particularly, but not limited to, one who hasn't been turned into a vampire (and thus trapped in their corpse, no longer a follower of Dwalin but also not showing up at the afterlife) in the last few minutes.
    If you consider deities powers as magic, then yes, the act of getting the information is probably magic. But the fix itself does not require any magic. Just a nonmagical rule that I normally would expect to be in place anyway.
    Also a cleric is not required. Just a worshipper. Or a sacred object. Or someone that speaks the name of the deity. Or an event relevant to the portfolio. Its really easy to see things as a god if you care enough to take a look.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Its
    The "you" in my statement is misplaced there, my apologies. I was not trying to devalue your opinion, just wanted to say that it doesnt really matter what anyone thinks how unlikely it is, thus there is no value in discussing it. The point is not "my opinion" vs "your opinion", but "unlikely" vs "obvious and easy to fix".
    Same for me, I understood you didn't mean me personally and didn't mean you personally, I was just trying to be pithy. I also apologize, sincr it apparently didn't come off as I intended.

    That said, I stand by my assertion, and would like to go a step further - even if we agree on obviousness, it doesnt matter unless it's a realistic possibility. A prison with walls 30 feet high has the obvious escape being up, but if the prisoners don't have ladders and can't fly it doesn't much matter.
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  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Its really easy to see things as a god if you care enough to take a look.
    And if the god in question does NOT want to see the event because they consider the secrecy of the voting system sacrosanct? Like, say, the same reason a democracy does not put cameras in voting booths, despite it being perfectly within its power to do so? Or if the gods really don't care much what the mortals are saying or doing when they are talking, in the same way children are ignored when adults are having an important conversation?

    Also, you didn't address any of the actual points I made, nor the reality that your "easy fixes" aren't easy nor do they fix anything other than making this process dwarven-vampire-proof. A weakness to vampires is not a horrible issue given how rare they are in practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I remain mystified by the general assertion that there are stupid designs and that there are easy fixes. Neither of those is true, under even the most basic assumptions that make the design make sense.
    Well, design is a much more complicated topic than it ever appears at first glance; and fixes always look easy to someone who doesn't know/care about the rest of the system.

  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Well, design is a much more complicated topic than it ever appears at first glance; and fixes always look easy to someone who doesn't know/care about the rest of the system.
    Word. But then, if people did start knowing/caring, my job would pay a lot less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Word. But then, if people did start knowing/caring, my job would pay a lot less.
    I don't know....I think if we reduce the time spent saving people from themselves, and reallocate it towards building the new stuff they really want; everyone might come out ahead.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    I don't know....I think if we reduce the time spent saving people from themselves, and reallocate it towards building the new stuff they really want; everyone might come out ahead.
    Ah, so you are suggesting I wouldn't have a less-well-paying job, you're suggesting I wouldn't have a job at all

    Fair enough, it would probably be a better world overall, even if I'd have to find a different form of employment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Ah, so you are suggesting I wouldn't have a less-well-paying job, you're suggesting I wouldn't have a job at all

    Fair enough, it would probably be a better world overall, even if I'd have to find a different form of employment.
    Well, I was thinking more like knowing what they were getting into, so they'd have a better appreciation of the situation than "It's just a button that'll do stuff!" before they ask. There's always going to be a need for making deep changes to a design because the system's big enough that a complete rewrite is hardly feasible, or calls for a large parallel/transition effort...but having to go a route like that on more shallow changes is unduly painful, even if we aren't talking about vampires plotting to end the world (which is multiple sorts of pain in the neck).

    That said, vampires plotting to end the world is probably the more realistic scenario.

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