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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    There are tons of possibilities to give this information to Dvalin. There were many high ranking clerics of basically all gods available as witness. The information is already spread to the dwarfs, also with many clerics present.
    What's "the information"? If you actually mean that you believe all dwarves know that Hel is presently trying to ensure the world is destroyed, that's somewhere we part ways sharply.

    And the only living dwarf clerics not named Durkon or Hilgya the comic has shown anytime recently are three rank novices.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That said, I stand by my assertion, and would like to go a step further - even if we agree on obviousness, it doesnt matter unless it's a realistic possibility. A prison with walls 30 feet high has the obvious escape being up, but if the prisoners don't have ladders and can't fly it doesn't much matter.
    I was talking about obvious and easy to fix, not just obvious. Of course at some point there is no sense in fixing the loophole if there is only a tiny chance of it happening and a fix costs a lot. In your example it probably doesnt make sense to heighten the walls by another 30 feet just to further decrease the chance of prisoners climbing over. But it might make sense to put barbed wire on top and install a camera. Because thats cheap and easy and provides additional security. And this is exactly what is done in prisons.
    Thats basically done everywhere. When there is a known danger thats easy to prevent, we try to prevent it, even when the chance is low of it happening (unless we dont care about the danger, but this is obviously not the case here, the magical protection is already very expensive). We wear seatbelts although the probability of a serious accident is quite low. Helmets on a bycicle.

    I cant think of a good reason why one would not make tampered elections invalid (assuming a lawful and honorable society like the dwarfs that wants a fair vote, Loki probably would think a free for all election is funny).
    That should be a basic rule especially in a world with so many magical options to control people. It costs basically nothing. Or virtually nothing if Dvalin just says the very obvious "btw. I am not going to accept something as will of the clans which is very clearly and obviously NOT the will of the clans".

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    When there is a known danger thats easy to prevent
    You have yet to demonstrate that there is a known danger or that it is easy to prevent. Simply stating both to be true doesn't magically make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    I cant think of a good reason why one would not make tampered elections invalid (assuming a lawful and honorable society like the dwarfs that wants a fair vote, Loki probably would think a free for all election is funny).
    That should be a basic rule especially in a world with so many magical options to control people. It costs basically nothing. Or virtually nothing if Dvalin just says the very obvious "btw. I am not going to accept something as will of the clans which is very clearly and obviously NOT the will of the clans".
    And how would he know it was tampered with without violating the sanctity of a private vote? Or ensure that "it wasn't tampered with" without magic? Or even with it? Because today it's ridiculously-unlikely-vampire-mass-domination, but I'd imagine that bribery is a far more common way to get a LE dwarf to vote against the interest of its clan, and yet I have yet to see how your suggestion even comes close to fixing that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    And if the god in question does NOT want to see the event because they consider the secrecy of the voting system sacrosanct? Like, say, the same reason a democracy does not put cameras in voting booths, despite it being perfectly within its power to do so? Or if the gods really don't care much what the mortals are saying or doing when they are talking, in the same way children are ignored when adults are having an important conversation?

    Also, you didn't address any of the actual points I made, nor the reality that your "easy fixes" aren't easy nor do they fix anything other than making this process dwarven-vampire-proof. A weakness to vampires is not a horrible issue given how rare they are in practice.

    Grey Wolf
    What secrecy of the voting system? So far the votes we have seen were always open.
    Also it is not required that Dvalin looks at the election all the time. Its just one of the many options he has. He could also appoint some kind of overseer (which is done in normal lections) or many other options. Or check for manipulation afterward. Or have a short talk with one represetative that delivers the vote. Basically everything is better then just blindly accepting a tampered vote.
    That Dvalin just does not care would be a valid option, expect that its the opposite of what was shown so far. The vote is already guarded with a lot of effort, and Dvalin seems to care very much about the clans will, so this assumption just doesnt make much sense.

    Which points did I not address?
    Also the reality is that my fix is easy. Extremely easy since I do not claim 100% effectiveness in all cases. Just a huge improvement in most of the existing loopholes.
    And it does a lot more then making the process dwarven-vampire proof. It also helps against dwarfs that can cast charm. Or suggestion. Or have a wand of suggestion. Or use blackmail. Or use bribes. Sure its not 100% proof in all cases... but still much better then without it. The rule "the vote counts even when its super obviously tampered with and clearly against the will of the clans" is just stupid.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    What secrecy of the voting system? So far the votes we have seen were always open.
    Dvalin's vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Also it is not required that Dvalin looks at the election all the time. Its just one of the many options he has. He could also appoint some kind of overseer (which is done in normal lections) or many other options. Or check for manipulation afterward. Or have a short talk with one represetative that delivers the vote. Basically everything is better then just blindly accepting a tampered vote.
    Every one of those would fail to identify the vote as tampered. So it would not even work under your ideal scenario, never mind any of mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    That Dvalin just does not care would be a valid option, expect that its the opposite of what was shown so far. The vote is already guarded with a lot of effort, and Dvalin seems to care very much about the clans will, so this assumption just doesnt make much sense.
    No, your assertion that there is a way to ensure the vote wasn't tampered with that is both magic-less and easy is what makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Which points did I not address?
    Any of them. Pick any of my posts.

    Although at this point I'm honestly baffled at what you mean by "obvious loophole" and "easy solution", since you were talking about not allowing vampiric domination in the middle chamber, and claimed your D&D group would've spotted it immediately, and none of that seems to be a fix or an issue with your "Dvalin would stop tampered votes with this easy fix" claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Also the reality is that my fix is easy. Extremely easy since I do not claim 100% effectiveness in all cases. Just a huge improvement in most of the existing loopholes.
    And it does a lot more then making the process dwarven-vampire proof. It also helps against dwarfs that can cast charm. Or suggestion. Or have a wand of suggestion. Or use blackmail. Or use bribes. Sure its not 100% proof in all cases... but still much better then without it. The rule "the vote counts even when its super obviously tampered with and clearly against the will of the clans" is just stupid.
    I repeat: at this point I have absolutely no idea what this easy fix is.

    ETA: wait, I suspect that it is this:
    No magic or anything requires, just a general law "vote must follow the spirit of a fair and independent vote, without tampering" or something similar.
    Yeah, that's not "easy" to implement. Or rather, it is trivial to implement, and impossible to enforce. Even with magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    And it does a lot more then making the process dwarven-vampire proof. It also helps against dwarfs that can cast charm. Or suggestion. Or have a wand of suggestion. Or use blackmail. Or use bribes. Sure its not 100% proof in all cases... but still much better then without it.
    Hmm...there's an interesting idea....HPoH sells all of Durkon's possessions, gives a package to every clanhead with money promising them even more if they vote to save the world. All votes to save the world are now bribery, so only votes to end the world are valid. At best there are no votes and the Godsmoot is stalled while Xykon and Redcloak keep going after the last Gate.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    I was talking about obvious and easy to fix, not just obvious.
    An iron grate over the prison makes the obvious escape route east to fix. But as you noted, there's no sense of the odds are so low.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Every one of those would fail to identify the vote as tampered. So it would not even work under your ideal scenario, never mind any of mine.
    Your seriously think that for example an overseer would not notice the vampires all around, the vamped dwarfs, or the order fighting the vampires? Or that Dvalin would not recognize the dominated dwarfs if he talks with them afterwards (Belkar always could remember what he did when dominated)? Seriously?


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, your assertion that there is a way to ensure the vote wasn't tampered with that is both magic-less and easy is what makes no sense.
    I never made that assertion. Read again what I actually wrote. I did not write that anything is ensured. I wrote several times now that there are still problems, just a lot less with minmal effort.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yeah, that's not "easy" to implement. Or rather, it is trivial to implement, and impossible to enforce. Even with magic.
    great, at least we can agree on the first part.
    Now to "impossible" to enforce part: in this very specific case, here is an incomplete list of things that would make the "impossible" possible:
    -take a single look at the voting area right now
    -have a short chat with Thor
    -talk with any of the dwarfs currently present at the voting area
    -talk to a few of the clan representatives after the vote
    -talk to the clerics at the goodsmoot

    None of these will give 100% proof of tampering, but all them will give enough information to be very cautionous about the result. And checking the dominated dwarfs afterwards will be 100% proof.

    How can you seriously claim that it is impossible to detect electoral fraud? You realize that electoral fraud is a very real thing that takes place in the real world and is regularly detected completely without magic? Dvalin is a freaking god, of course why should that be impossible for him?

  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    What's "the information"? If you actually mean that you believe all dwarves know that Hel is presently trying to ensure the world is destroyed, that's somewhere we part ways sharply.three rank novices.
    The information that there are vampires trying to tamper with the vote. I dont claim all dwarfs now this, just many (I count 21 just in the last panel) and that information is not that difficult to spread.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Your seriously think that for example an overseer would not notice the vampires all around, the vamped dwarfs, or the order fighting the vampires? Or that Dvalin would not recognize the dominated dwarfs if he talks with them afterwards (Belkar always could remember what he did when dominated)? Seriously?
    No, I'm saying the overseer would be the first one to be dominated. And that the gods can't talk to mortals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    I never made that assertion. Read again what I actually wrote. I did not write that anything is ensured. I wrote several times now that there are still problems, just a lot less with minmal effort.
    I did check, and you absolutely did make that assertion:
    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    the solution is also super obvious. No magic or anything requires
    "Obvious", "no magic involved". By your own words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    great, at least we can agree on the first part.
    Now to "impossible" to enforce part: in this very specific case, here is an incomplete list of things that would make the "impossible" possible:
    -take a single look at the voting area right now
    -have a short chat with Thor
    -talk with any of the dwarfs currently present at the voting area
    -talk to a few of the clan representatives after the vote
    -talk to the clerics at the goodsmoot
    Your solution only works on this one specific situation in which vampire dwarves are involved. It is the "the prison isn't secured because it fails to stop flying prisoners" issue Pelee highlighted. It is not, as I predicted, a general solution to the most basic forms of vote tampering. It only works here because you declare it to work, and not even then: if this had been in place, the vampires would have approached the problem differently. It is not foolproof, it is not easy to implement, and indeed it does not work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    None of these will give 100% proof of tampering, but all them will give enough information to be very cautionous about the result. And checking the dominated dwarfs afterwards will be 100% proof.
    Again: only if the actual problem is vampires with infinite mind control ability. Not a general solution that will work. And one that would not have worked if it had indeed been implemented, because the vampires would have used other methods.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    How can you seriously claim that it is impossible to detect electoral fraud? You realize that electoral fraud is a very real thing that takes place in the real world and is regularly detected completely without magic? Dvalin is a freaking god, of course why should that be impossible for him?
    1) Politics of RW will not be discussed by me.
    2) I'm not saying it is impossible to detect. I am saying that your claim that it could have been stopped in this specific case would not have worked, and that they wouldn't have put it in place in the first place because no-one considered the extremely unlikely scenario of a coven of dwarven vampires being an issue they needed specific defences to address.

    Your entire claim rests on the fact you can think of 1 way to stop these specific vampires acting in the specific way in which they did. Ignoring that Dvalin set this up when he was mortal, presumably with a limited budget, needing to please many factions at once, and not considering that thousands of years later it would be used to decide the fate of the world while being infiltrated by dwarven vampires that no-one knew about. And ignoring that if the vampires were aware of your "obvious, magic-less solution", they'd have found a different way to do so.

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    The information that there are vampires trying to tamper with the vote. I dont claim all dwarfs now this, just many (I count 21 just in the last panel) and that information is not that difficult to spread.
    Bullhonkey. The priests are forbidden from communicating with anyone outside the room, and Dvalin can't change that. The information simply could not spread, short of Roy's very specific circumstance of having attacked his own priest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    The information that there are vampires trying to tamper with the vote. I dont claim all dwarfs now this, just many (I count 21 just in the last panel) and that information is not that difficult to spread.
    What's this "many clerics present" business? And to be relevant for Dvalin's ability to spy on the vote even if he wanted to, it would have to be clerics of Dvalin. Four clerics of Thor, one cleric of Loki, clerics of Dvalin or of unknown gods=0. Few people actively worship demigods; as presented, the vast majority of dwarves worldwide worship Thor.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, I'm saying the overseer would be the first one to be dominated. And that the gods can't talk to mortals.
    And how exactly does dominating the overseer help? Is Dvalin to stupid to notice this?
    Also the gods can talk to mortals. While that is not even strictly required in this case, because listening would be enough, communication is very well within the powers of a deity

    Remote Communication
    As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I did check, and you absolutely did make that assertion:

    "Obvious", "no magic involved". By your own words.
    "Ensured" no.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Your solution only works on this one specific situation in which vampire dwarves are involved. It is the "the prison isn't secured because it fails to stop flying prisoners" issue Pelee highlighted. It is not, as I predicted, a general solution to the most basic forms of vote tampering. It only works here because you declare it to work, and not even then: if this had been in place, the vampires would have approached the problem differently.
    You claimed it was impossible. I gave an example where its not impossible. So it clearly is possible. It also works in many more situations, but since you claimed "impossible", a single example is enough to prove you wrong. Even if a different approach of the vampires would have worked (with so far is just a claim from you), still doesnt change the fact that it works in this case.
    Also you already admitted that its easy to implement, just adm

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It is not foolproof, it is not easy to implement, and indeed it does not work.
    foolproof: never claimed that
    easy to implement: you already admitted that
    does work: just gave an example where it works, where you also admitted that it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I'm not saying it is impossible to detect.
    "Or rather, it is trivial to implement, and impossible to enforce. Even with magic."
    Where do you see the difference between impossible to detect and impossible to enforce? If I can detect it, it is very easy to enforce. Fraud detected? -> election invalid! -> enforced!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I am saying that your claim that it could have been stopped in this specific case would not have worked, and that they wouldn't have put it in place in the first place because no-one considered the extremely unlikely scenario of a coven of dwarven vampires being an issue they needed specific defences to address.

    Your entire claim rests on the fact you can think of 1 way to stop these specific vampires acting in the specific way in which they did. Ignoring that Dvalin set this up when he was mortal, presumably with a limited budget, needing to please many factions at once, and not considering that thousands of years later it would be used to decide the fate of the world while being infiltrated by dwarven vampires that no-one knew about. And ignoring that if the vampires were aware of your "obvious, magic-less solution", they'd have found a different way to do so.
    And I already explained several times now that it would have worked in this specific case which you even said yourself "Your solution only works on this one specific situation in which vampire dwarves are involved", and already explained several times that also works against many other kinds of fraud.
    You are now back to claiming that detecting fraud is basically impossible. What is it now?

    Simple question for you:
    Do you think detecting election fraud is possible or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Bullhonkey. The priests are forbidden from communicating with anyone outside the room, and Dvalin can't change that. The information simply could not spread, short of Roy's very specific circumstance of having attacked his own priest.
    The information already left the room a long time ago, are you argueing that what happend cannot be now?

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    What's this "many clerics present" business? And to be relevant for Dvalin's ability to spy on the vote even if he wanted to, it would have to be clerics of Dvalin. Four clerics of Thor, one cleric of Loki, clerics of Dvalin or of unknown gods=0. Few people actively worship demigods; as presented, the vast majority of dwarves worldwide worship Thor.
    again: cleric of dvalin is not required for his ability to spy.

    As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    The ones that most disappointed me are related to hyper-derailing topics. I'll leave it at: I'm not rabid as the most vocal detractors, but I think things could have been handled better on a few fronts with them.

    Outside of those?

    How Durkon beats the Vampire. Required the Order to fail in a scenario that was very unlikely for them to fail, the revelation about Hurak and the prophecy basically* went unused, and I'm not sure I really buy that the Vampire didn't have the knowledge necessary to make inferences to that degree. There was a lot of work put into that set-up, but my final reaction after a moment to calm down was just relief that "okay this vampire business is over" and not "that was an awesome triumph."

    * Yes, it gets referenced in the afterlife. But it was presented as a thing that should have been earth-shatteringly important to the saving of Durkon and it's basically an after-thought that he could have discovered and handled later at no real detriment as long as it was before Redcloak.
    I can't help but mention this is odd, considering that probability never matters to begin with. That's a universal truth of fiction, that this series has actually acknowledged more than once. Usually things like that favor the heroes, but it's also not uncommon for it to be used to make things more dramatic.

    Also strange to say you don't buy the Vampire not making the connections when we were shown he didn't, again, on multiple occasions.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Also the gods can talk to mortals. While that is not even strictly required in this case, because listening would be enough, communication is very well within the powers of a deity
    I'm pretty sure the Deities & Demigods rules aren't in effect in Order of the Stick, because it sure doesn't seem like Loki knew about Hel's trickery sixteen weeks in advance.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    again: cleric of dvalin is not required for his ability to spy.[...] one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity.
    Those are all things you have no indication is there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    As for Hel... I honestly have no idea about how to reconcile her apparent stupidity and her ridiculously complicated plan (dependent as it is on specific events happening in a specific fashion). Either she's a brilliant chessmaster who can roll with obstacles and setbacks, or she's an unbelievably lucky idiot... and as you note, she really comes across as more of a lucky idiot. As a death goddess who holds sway over the Dwarves by default, she really should be more of a threat than in fact she is...
    The plan has never struck me as ridiculously complicated, and I'm still bewildered when people claim it is. The impetus to be able to put it into action was purely luck, but I find no issue with the idea that Hel could have formulated the actual (rather simple) plan centuries in advance, and has just been waiting/hoping for an opportunity to use it. And because this is a story, she got one.

    There's a middle ground between the two extremes of "brilliant chess master" or "unbelievably lucky idiot". Although, a lot of people seem to ignore middle grounds when talking about character behavior, in general.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-05-06 at 03:51 PM.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    The nature of the wage pretty much guaranteed that this situation would come to pass eventually (i.e. that demolishing the world, as happens often, would result in a massive influx of souls for Hel), so it's no surprise that Hel had an idea about how to capitalize on it. If anything, the issue is whether Loki realized this at the time and how it features in his overall plan, provided such a plan exists in the first place.
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  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    The nature of the wage pretty much guaranteed that this situation would come to pass eventually (i.e. that demolishing the world, as happens often, would result in a massive influx of souls for Hel), so it's no surprise that Hel had an idea about how to capitalize on it. If anything, the issue is whether Loki realized this at the time and how it features in his overall plan, provided such a plan exists in the first place.
    In my headcanon, it depends on how confident Loki was that Thor would screw up and not manage to turn all dwarves into Lawful Self, sacrificing individuals out of sheer necessity. Honestly, I suspect Loki did not predict the situation because usually Loki excels in the short/term gains, and always fails in the long term (because otherwise he'd take over the universe, one would imagine).

    On the other end of the spectrum, Hel might have screwed herself up with impatience, since if she had waited, when the world-s destruction did come she'd have won, but by giving away her plot by voting now, she will be giving time to her opponents to set up a contingency plan for the dwarves when the time comes (this is ignoring the very likely possibility that the OotS will save this world, mind you, but Hel can be forgiven for not expecting that)

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    I'm pretty sure the bet screwed up both Thor and Hel in some way. Thor is supposed to be chaotic good, and now he's forced to make an entire race Lawful good to make sure they don't get screwed in the afterlife.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2019-05-06 at 05:37 PM.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Loki didn't necessarily consider this outcome when he made the wager in the first place. He's a trickster god, it's entirely in his nature to do something that will mess up both Thor and Hel without thinking about the long-term implications. Heck, if Thor hadn't done such a good job of making the Dwarves an honour-bound and rigid society--and who could have predicted he'd manage that?--then this outcome would never have happened.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    Simple question for you:
    Do you think detecting election fraud is possible or not?
    The problem is that either or both of you are talking in absolutes.
    While it is possible to detect election fraud, it's nearly impossible to detect and protect from every single form of election fraud.
    Last edited by Jannoire; 2019-05-07 at 02:57 AM.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    again: cleric of dvalin is not required for his ability to spy.
    To paraphrase the Giant, who was paraphrasing an old quote

    Do you accept that, in keeping with the clerical hierarchy's established bureaucracy, theres a clever solution that allows the vampires to influence the vote that would be beyond Dvalins ability to reasonably foresee and prevent?
    Cos then we are just haggling over price.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, your assertion that there is a way to ensure the vote wasn't tampered with that is both magic-less and easy is what makes no sense.
    Actually it's a fairly easy to make dc 15 sense motive check to tell if someone is under magical domination, or a slightly harder to hit dc 25 check to discern any magical manipulation that isn't as extreme. No magic at all required, just the social skills to tell something's off about their behavior.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2019-05-07 at 06:49 AM.

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Actually it's a fairly easy to make dc 15 sense motive check to tell if someone is under magical domination, or a slightly harder to hit dc 25 check to discern any magical manipulation that isn't as extreme. No magic at all required, just the social skills to tell something's off about their behavior.
    Actually, it is even easier, since in OotS dominated characters have visibly spirally eyes. That still doesn't in any way assist Dvalin in determining that the vote was tampered with. Because, as I'm tired of repeating, if Dvalin or his valid representative would be in a situation to detect this, the vampires would have gone for a different form of tampering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Actually, it is even easier, since in OotS dominated characters have visibly spirally eyes. That still doesn't in any way assist Dvalin in determining that the vote was tampered with. Because, as I'm tired of repeating, if Dvalin or his valid representative would be in a situation to detect this, the vampires would have gone for a different form of tampering.

    Grey Wolf
    The point being made here seems to be that that might have made for a better story, or at least one with one less fridge question.

  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    The point being made here seems to be that that might have made for a better story, or at least one with one less fridge question.
    If that is the point being made, then it needs to be expressed and defended better than with sweeping, untenable assertions. And the only fridge question I can think of is "why didn't Dvalin design a system of voting capable of stopping vampires with full access to the voting rules?", which seems to have a trivially simple answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myta View Post
    You claimed it was impossible. I gave an example where its not impossible. So it clearly is possible.
    No, you didn't. You gave scenarios which were not part of your original fix, some of which cannot be done, some of which would only work if the vampires didn't know they were about to happen. If any of them were in place, the vampires would work around them.

    And your original fix is NOT on that list, because your original "easy solution" was to pass a law forbidding vote tampering, which as fixes go is completely useless.

    ETA: Let me put it another way. As long as your "disappointment" with this plot scenario is that "if the voting process had been designed differently, this approach would not have worked", that is all on you and not on the story. Because as you have admitted, there is no fool-proof way to do this, and if Rich had come up with a different voting process, he'd then have had the vampires exploit a different vulnerability, and it would still end up in the same exact situation we are now.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-05-07 at 09:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    And your original fix is NOT on that list, because your original "easy solution" was to pass a law forbidding vote tampering, which as fixes go is completely useless.

    Grey Wolf
    Technically, vote tampering is illegal no matter what, right? I mean, does there have to be a specific law? Historically, was everyone okay with stuffing ballot boxes before there was a specific law against it?

    ANY tampering is... well, it's tampering! And the point is, Hel is rigging the vote and trying to get away with it through a technicality. But the technicality is, nobody is aware, on the divine level, that her servants on the mortal level are rigging the vote. (As I read it, anyway. I'm still a little confused by it all...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Technically, vote tampering is illegal no matter what, right? I mean, does there have to be a specific law? Historically, was everyone okay with stuffing ballot boxes before there was a specific law against it?
    Specific forms of vote tampering tend to be illegal, yes. But there is always a new way someone can come up with. I'd say more, but politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    ANY tampering is... well, it's tampering! And the point is, Hel is rigging the vote and trying to get away with it through a technicality. But the technicality is, nobody is aware, on the divine level, that her servants on the mortal level are rigging the vote. (As I read it, anyway. I'm still a little confused by it all...)
    She's been depending on a lot of technicalities, as the Lawful Evil entity that she is. For example, the no-backsies rule. But what she is most depending on is that to the gods at large, this is not that consequential a vote. They've done it billions of times before, this world did get a reprieve a few years earlier, and yes, it'll suck to have her in charge for the next handful of worlds, but I'd be surprised if variations of this where Odin got de-throned by another Northern deity for a couple million worlds hadn't happened before.

    Yes, This Time it's Different because Thor and Loki have figured out the purple quiddity, but most gods don't see it that way, so to them this is just procedural vote uncounted+1. And mortals will be mortals, always picking the worst possible choice for themselves, because mortals, amiright? Always bribing and blackmailing each other and the like. Why, we've all had to do a bit of pushing other religions a bit when we could, haven't we? That's why we have all these rules about staying well away from the mortals.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-05-07 at 10:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: What plot twist most disappointed you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Specific forms of vote tampering tend to be illegal, yes. But there is always a new way someone can come up with.
    If a law enumerates several ways of tampering with votes and outlaws each, instead of going to the principle and outlawing any tampering, it's a terrible law/law system.

    Being able to detect tampering is another matter, granted, but THIS loophole at least should definitely not exist.
    Last edited by terodil; 2019-05-07 at 11:26 AM.

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