New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

[Akisa]

So lets talk about 6th edition

and Twitch of the announcement done by freelancers who done work for Shadowrun.

https://www.twitch.tv/shadowcastersnetwork

edit pasted wrong link

Edit 2:
Podcast for Shadowrun 6th Edition

Edit 3 1May19
New AMA for Shadowrun 6th Ed by Shadow Caster Network

[Particle_Man]

The first link seems to indicate that it is an April Fool’s joke. Do you want us to talk about the joke, or about a possible 6th edition of the game?

[John Campbell]

Unless it returns to the variable-TN dice pool mechanic, I'm not interested.

[Akisa]

The first link seems to indicate that it is an April Fool’s joke. Do you want us to talk about the joke, or about a possible 6th edition of the game?

I posted wrong link by mistake, and I placed a correction. The announcement was made by people who write for Catalyst labs, so take it for what's wroth. But It's more to talk about the 6th edition that was announced with rules book coming out around Gencon.

[Ignimortis]

Here's my short list of what I gleaned from the video:

• No limits
• No Force - you just decide on parameters (damage, radius, etc.) of your spell before casting it
• Edge is reset each scene, has new effects, gained by assuming a superior position over opponents
• Situational modifiers are gone - I have a feeling that CGL tied that into edge and almost everything that used to give clear-cut advantages in various situations will now award edge
• Matrix is different again, no marks - you just see the device and hack it Recoil is basically integrated now, bursts deal more damage but are harder to hit
• No Drain Resist - you take the difference between Drain Value, modified by whatever you decided to do to your spell, and subtract your Spellcasting hits from that. Take what remains (if anything) as drain. Depending on drain codes, this will either be a full Magicrun edition or a game where a mage can't really cast more than 5-6 spells per run
• Counterspelling is passive and is based off Spellcasting with no special skill
• Healing is limited to 3 per day per category: Magical, First Aid, Medkit. Can be applied in any order, too
• Vehicle rules changed again - since there are no limits, there's no need for dumb 5e vehicle stats

Funny thing is...all the good stuff was basically already in 4e, I think? And all the ambiguous stuff is...ambiguous, and doesn't really seem too good.

[Corsair14]

I heard they are including an Abacus to help keep track of dice pools. Instructions on how to use it in Mandarin.

[LibraryOgre]

https://www.shadowrunsixthworld.com/

The webpage

[Delta]

Funny thing is...all the good stuff was basically already in 4e, I think? And all the ambiguous stuff is...ambiguous, and doesn't really seem too good.

Yeah a lot of it looks a bit like a rollback.

Mostly interested in seeing how the new Edge mechanic works now, that could be a huge gamechanger to the "feel" of the game, as far as combat is concerned.

[Morty]

This could possibly be an edition of Shadowrun that lets me play in its setting without giving me a headache when I try to create a character. I guess I'll keep an eye on it.

[Akisa]

From Shadow Caster Network discord:

Ozz (Join the Anarchy)Today at 12:26 PM
@everyone Tonight is a big night for Shadowrun 6E!

8pm EST: Line developer Jason Hardy will be interviewed LIVE - get an opportunity to ask your questions and discuss in chat!

THEN

9:30pm EST: A LIVE Actual Play of Shadowrun 6E! GM Mr. Johnson (Arcology Podcast) runs Shadowrun allstars Bobby (Complex Action), Opti (Neo-Anarchist Podcast), Austin Rusk (GM of Crit Squad), and Sarah Krause (producer of Rem Alternis) through a multi-episode campaign series that will carry us up to the CRB's release at GenCon!

Watch live on our Twitch - ShadowcastersNetwork

[Delta]

This could possibly be an edition of Shadowrun that lets me play in its setting without giving me a headache when I try to create a character. I guess I'll keep an eye on it.

Depending on what exactly causes you headaches, don't bet on it. It's still Shadowrun, throughout 6 editions, the rules have been exceedingly complex and complicated for 30 years now, and judging from the video, 6 won't reinvent the wheel, it will build on the same core used by 4 and 5 with some modifications.

[Morty]

Depending on what exactly causes you headaches, don't bet on it. It's still Shadowrun, throughout 6 editions, the rules have been exceedingly complex and complicated for 30 years now, and judging from the video, 6 won't reinvent the wheel, it will build on the same core used by 4 and 5 with some modifications.

Could be, but it doesn't cost me much to see if it's true.

[CharonsHelper]

It might actually make me interested in the system?

Shadowrun always seemed to be a system that was very much style>substance. I always loved its vibe - but its mechanics are mediocre.

The biggest thing that they really need to fix, which has been endemic in every edition - is that there are too many times when one character takes the spotlight and all of the other players are stuck twiddling their thumbs for 20-30 minutes. Like whenever 1-2 characters start decking.

If something is going on at the table, 99% of the time it should either be very quick and/or include everyone to some degree. Not everyone has to be equally potent in every scene, but waiting around as a mage, adept, or street samurai while the decker does his schtick gets old fast. When combat breaks out the decker is sub-par, but at least he can contribute.

Maybe something where the decker can bring tag-alongs on his decking adventures who get lesser abilities? I don't have an easy fix - but that doesn't make it any less of an issue.

But I have always loved the Shadowrun vibe. I'll be hoping that it's able to keep the vibe and finally fix the crunch.

[Delta]

I don't want to sound too pessimistic, but I feel I can pretty much guarantee 6e will fix exactly none of those problems. Maybe matrix stuff will be a bit faster, maybe combat a bit less convoluted, sure, but it will still be an extremely crunch-heavy game with a billion moving parts and options, because that's what Shadowrun is, and from what (little, admittedly) has been known so far, this won't change the essence of that.

If you want a more rules-light alternative, maybe take a look at Shadowrun: Anarchy?

[CharonsHelper]

I don't want to sound too pessimistic, but I feel I can pretty much guarantee 6e will fix exactly none of those problems. Maybe matrix stuff will be a bit faster, maybe combat a bit less convoluted, sure, but it will still be an extremely crunch-heavy game with a billion moving parts and options, because that's what Shadowrun is, and from what (little, admittedly) has been known so far, this won't change the essence of that.

If you want a more rules-light alternative, maybe take a look at Shadowrun: Anarchy?

If you were talking to me - I don't need rules light. Crunchier systems are fine - it's just the extended solo play that bothers me.

Maybe (off the top of my head) the decker's buddies could run his viral programs more efficiently than if they were automated? Something like that - just to keep them engaged.

[Delta]

Problem is that the very basic design choices of Shadowrun prevent them from doing something like that.

A non-magical character will not accompany the mage on an astral scouting trip. A non-techie will never help the decker in any way while he hacks the mainframe. The troll sammy will always stay behind when the infiltration adept wallruns, jumps, crawls past the high security gizmos and so on.

All of that is stuff you can somewhat alleviate by clever adventure design to a certain point, but in the end, Shadowrun is a game of highly specialized characters working in a team, so when it comes down to it, a lot of the time, the specialists will always be on their own when their number is called. And since the rules will always be amazingly complex, it will take a while until they've finished whatever they're doing.

[Delta]

Having watched the AMA on the Shadowcasters Network, yeah, this is still very much Shadowrun-y as known from 5.

It seems like a bit of a partial rollback, new Matrix sounds like a mix of 4 and 5 (no more marks, a proper hack takes a lot of time, but you can still brute force your way in, sounds exactly like 4, but with grids, GODs, Overwatch score etc.), massively reduced skill list sounds a lot like good old SR2 (most of the things that were skill groups in 4/5 are now reduced to being one skill), biggest change seems to be combat, where Edge plays a large role as a "back and forth" kind of resource, replacing all situational modifiers (no more "Oh, he has cover, so that's a -2, or was it -3?" now it's "He has cover, so he gets an Edge" or smth similar), weapons now have an "attack score" and armor gives a bonus to "defense score", and if there's a significant difference of attack vs. defense, the better one gets an Edge.

So yeah, if you didn't like "Jason Hardy's Shadowrun" so far, chances are you won't like this either.

[Akisa]

This line from discord today has me worried.

Mr. JohnsonToday at 1:34 PM
A Katana does exactly the same damage in the hands of a Str 1 character as it does in the hands of Str 10

[Cluedrew]

I don't play ShadowRun, but that doesn't strike me as a particular problem. Why is weapon damage not scaling with strength an issue? Especially since it seems to be a slashing weapon which would benefit less from it in reality.

Otherwise, I think ShadowRun needs to do something about the down time of off beat characters for me to get excited about it. I might look at the base rules for ideas, my home-brew system also used d6 dice pools.

[Akisa]

Some docs recording what been compiled

[Ignimortis]

Some docs recording what been compiled

And from what it says, 6e is a trash fire. CGL exceeded my expectations...in that I couldn't believe they would mess up even more. Most of these changes are ridiculous. Combat specialists are now a dead role - you don't need anything but BOD to soak well, and you don't get enough actions to warrant investing into initiative bonuses. Might as well be a full mage, sustain Increase Reflexes (Focused Concentration seems to be even more broken for what it's worth), spam spirits and win the game.

[Delta]

Well it's Shadowrun. Creating two new, bigger problems for every single one you're trying to solve is a time honored tradition.

Skill system sounds more and more like good old SR2, short skill list (one "Firearm" skill to rule them all), with both Specialisations and "Expertises" as an even more focused version.

[Delta]

I don't play ShadowRun, but that doesn't strike me as a particular problem. Why is weapon damage not scaling with strength an issue? Especially since it seems to be a slashing weapon which would benefit less from it in reality.

Well it becomes a problem when unarmed combat damage is still based on strength and it leads to stuff like an 8 to 9 foot tall troll doing more damage with his fist than with a two-handed hammer, that's just dumb.

[Cluedrew]

Troll: "The hammer the doctor uses to check my knees is bigger than this."

[DigoDragon]

All of that is stuff you can somewhat alleviate by clever adventure design to a certain point, but in the end, Shadowrun is a game of highly specialized characters working in a team, so when it comes down to it, a lot of the time, the specialists will always be on their own when their number is called. And since the rules will always be amazingly complex, it will take a while until they've finished whatever they're doing.

I agree with this. Having run many adventures, there's only so much you can do to design an adventure for everyone to participate in together. Often the team breaks up into subgroups or individuals to work their specialties so someone is going to be sitting there waiting their turn. Experience be told, my best groups were ones where the team wasn't so specialized--they would cross-class into each other's skills so that they had the ability to stay together more often, or at least work in bigger subgroups. Downside is they were overall weaker than specialists, but I found it easier to adjust the enemy's skill level than worry if the street sam had something to do while the hacker was spending the next 40 minutes breaking into a corp node.

[druid91]

Which is largely why I like 4e hacking. It's a skill roll. That's it.

Honestly, I doubt this will be able to pull me away from 4e shadowrun.

[Fable Wright]

Problem is that the very basic design choices of Shadowrun prevent them from doing something like that.

A non-magical character will not accompany the mage on an astral scouting trip. A non-techie will never help the decker in any way while he hacks the mainframe. The troll sammy will always stay behind when the infiltration adept wallruns, jumps, crawls past the high security gizmos and so on.

All of that is stuff you can somewhat alleviate by clever adventure design to a certain point, but in the end, Shadowrun is a game of highly specialized characters working in a team, so when it comes down to it, a lot of the time, the specialists will always be on their own when their number is called. And since the rules will always be amazingly complex, it will take a while until they've finished whatever they're doing.

Actually, you know what? There have been systems designed to make extended solo missions (a) not take forever and (b) relevant to character building. The Mind's Eye Theater Werewolf game had a good mechanic for this: you had a certain number of downtime actions, and they could be used to do various things like acquire gear, deals, or go on an extended solo quest. Because it was designed for a LARP, the mechanics were streamlined, and the results were determined by chop of rock paper scissors and then you would tell if you got a consequence and/or succeeded in your objective. Players could leverage abilities to decrease the difficulties.

You could provide rules to put the hacking and astral projection sequences in as one roll with various modifiers, no retries, and when that's done it's time for the next infiltration action. No endless foot dragging for endless sequences, you get the results and craft the narrative around it, and it's simple and workable and doesn't bog things down more than D&D initiative. It could work. It could be streamlined.

It just takes a good design team, and Catalyst isn't that

[DigoDragon]

Which is largely why I like 4e hacking. It's a skill roll. That's it.

Honestly, I doubt this will be able to pull me away from 4e shadowrun.

Yes, everyone on the team could technically have the hacking skill. No, no one is going to be anywhere near as good as the actual team hacker. However, a party could take a page from the movie Hackers and all log in at once like a DDoS attack. Matrix security is gonna boot off the party in short order, but every action it spends attacking personas/avatars from the general party is an action it isn't spending on your actual hacker to get in and do some real damage.

It gives everyone something to do, and what runner doesn't enjoy being an annoyance to The Man?

[Cluedrew]

It just takes a good design team, and Catalyst isn't that

Also after a certain amount of editions I think the urge to make an serious changes goes down. I mean you might make changes that bring in new players or you might loose the old players or you might put in tons of work for no effect. The biggest system overhaul I can think of is D&D 4e and that is not inspiring confidence. ... I still wish more people would.

Because yeah, even if the star of the show changed each time as long as the other players can contribute enough that you can tell they are contributing that's fine. It keeps everyone involved and give a bit more space for everyone to work together.

[Delta]

It just takes a good design team, and Catalyst isn't that

Not only that, it would take a team willing to make a game that's totally and completely different from anything Shadowrun has been for three decades. I can understand they do not want to do that.

(for the record, I do not disagree with your statement at all, Shadowrun has always been plagued by a lot of problem and the last time I think the game overall took a step in the right direction was the early days of 4, I was pretty unimpressed by 5 and don't think what I've seen from 6 that it will impress me any more)