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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    I don't play ShadowRun, but that doesn't strike me as a particular problem. Why is weapon damage not scaling with strength an issue? Especially since it seems to be a slashing weapon which would benefit less from it in reality.
    Because in a sense, SR went full reverse in the arms race. The archetypes of Street Samurai or Razorgirl became a thing because a fully cybered/adepted meta-human could go toe-to-toe with the finest high tech weaponry mankind had to offer while chrome/magic worked best at expressing raw power in the form of blades, tomahawks and bows.

    As for the overall topic, cannot say that I'm too excited. Been playing SR sind 1st edition and rules got more complex since then, I feel that in-between 4th, 5th and the upcoming 6th, they try to balance out the whole inconsistencies the system accrued without wanting to reduce the complexity level. Had high hopes for Anarchy, but alas....
    Last edited by Florian; 2019-05-14 at 07:49 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    To be honest, having watched the 2nd session of the actual play on Shadowcasters, I'm not particularly impressed.

    I mean, considering on what a short timeframe this was announced (even catching quite a few people involved in the game by surprise) it's not too shocking the realize this wasn't really tested in-depth, but if you're already discussing how you might want to houserule damage ratings and armor only two sessions in isn't making a great impression, a lot of stuff seems to be all over the place (not that older editions were incredibly well-balanced, to be fair)

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    Also after a certain amount of editions I think the urge to make an serious changes goes down. I mean you might make changes that bring in new players or you might loose the old players or you might put in tons of work for no effect. The biggest system overhaul I can think of is D&D 4e and that is not inspiring confidence. ... I still wish more people would.
    What if they rip out a lot of the mechanics and streamline it like D&D did in 5e? I feel that SR could use a similar rules treatment.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    What if they rip out a lot of the mechanics and streamline it like D&D did in 5e? I feel that SR could use a similar rules treatment.
    Yeah I'd buy that in a heartbeat. I had hoped Anarchy to be something like that but never really liked it as much as I hoped.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    What if they rip out a lot of the mechanics and streamline it like D&D did in 5e? I feel that SR could use a similar rules treatment.
    While they seem to advertise SR 6e to 5e as "what 5e was to 3.5 D&D", I remain very sceptical. Shutting down whole concepts (it's official, Hardy himself said that tanks are no longer supported as character concept) and not fixing the internal problems with the system and the underlying problems with the setting which beget the mechanical problems isn't advancement. Then again, I don't like D&D 5e either, because it doesn't do what 3.5 did when you locked all the cheesy wizards and useless fighters in the cellar and just played the good middle-of-the-road classes instead.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    While they seem to advertise SR 6e to 5e as "what 5e was to 3.5 D&D", I remain very sceptical.
    Yeah, that's along the lines they like to use, but honestly, if you watch any of the stuff that's already out there, it just... isn't. Whether it's combat, magic or matrix, a simple, quick, beginner-friendly system SR6 is not. It's still an amazingly complicated game with convoluted subsystems, and even worse, now it's convoluted subsystems some of which are really based around a new concept of back and forth of Edge replacing modifiers and stuff, while others are still clearly designed without giving that a second thought and using Edge like it has been in SR4 and 5, so now the spending of Edge has been designed around the idea of a constant flow of Edge so everything is much more expensive, while only very specific parts of the game have been actually designed around giving you a way to actually gain Edge that way.

    It just seems like they had this whole idea of a more abstract, Edge-centric, conflict-driven system which does indeed sound promising but at some point just stopped and bolted the rest of the system onto that which is just SR4/5 with some minor tweaks.

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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Yeah I'd buy that in a heartbeat. I had hoped Anarchy to be something like that but never really liked it as much as I hoped.
    I looked at Anarchy and it felt to me like it wanted to be rules-lite, but halfway through it got nervous and backed off that goal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ignimortis View Post
    While they seem to advertise SR 6e to 5e as "what 5e was to 3.5 D&D", I remain very sceptical. Shutting down whole concepts (it's official, Hardy himself said that tanks are no longer supported as character concept) and not fixing the internal problems with the system and the underlying problems with the setting which beget the mechanical problems isn't advancement. Then again, I don't like D&D 5e either, because it doesn't do what 3.5 did when you locked all the cheesy wizards and useless fighters in the cellar and just played the good middle-of-the-road classes instead.
    What I like about 5e is the fewer situational bonuses and penalties you have to deal with. Advantage/Disadvantage covers a lot of those. Some friends of mine complain that 5e feels less powerful and that's a fair criticism since you have this "bounded accuracy" concept that limits the upper ends of stats and DCs. But I like that it's easier to put together a group of PCs, get into the game quickly, and be able to fight reasonable challenges at most levels without needing to specialize hard in something.

    That's what I'd hope for a new edition of SR to do. Building characters takes a while, and there's always those odd-duck builds that give a huge dice pool to potentially one-shot most targets on either side. In some SR editions, like 4e, you really had to specialize those dice pools to survive.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    This sounds like they took Shadowrun and tried to bolt the FATE engine's system of Fate Points onto it, renaming them Edge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    It might actually make me interested in the system?

    Shadowrun always seemed to be a system that was very much style>substance. I always loved its vibe - but its mechanics are mediocre.

    The biggest thing that they really need to fix, which has been endemic in every edition - is that there are too many times when one character takes the spotlight and all of the other players are stuck twiddling their thumbs for 20-30 minutes. Like whenever 1-2 characters start decking.

    If something is going on at the table, 99% of the time it should either be very quick and/or include everyone to some degree. Not everyone has to be equally potent in every scene, but waiting around as a mage, adept, or street samurai while the decker does his schtick gets old fast. When combat breaks out the decker is sub-par, but at least he can contribute.

    Maybe something where the decker can bring tag-alongs on his decking adventures who get lesser abilities? I don't have an easy fix - but that doesn't make it any less of an issue.

    But I have always loved the Shadowrun vibe. I'll be hoping that it's able to keep the vibe and finally fix the crunch.
    For Decking/Astral Traveling, It'd probably be best to simplify both systems to have the results be near-instant (most scenarios where they're relevant, they're practically near-instant in universe-time anyway), and then provide some kind of long-term, real-life benefit for maintaining their connection to the other side.

    Spoiler: Decking Example
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    Make it so that Decking is dramatically shortened to a few short rolls to determine what things he can interact with, and then he provides benefits for each real-life round. For example, he determines his level of access upon initially Decking, and then he can modify a number of things in real life based on his level of access, whether that be alarms, turrets, communications systems, whatever. If he needs to gain more access, or if he wants to try and brute force a solution for more access at the cost of higher risks, he can do that. So he initiates by hacking the system, gets an Access level of 4 and a Risk level of 3, uses his access to start controlling turrets (Cost 3) and sensors (Cost 1) for his team that's moving past the access point. He plays in real-time like everyone else, and manages Access vs. Risk on his own turns.


    But they really need to shift away from having different speed levels. Have everything be based around real-time, keep the specifics of the weird stuff really simple, and allow them to add benefits that apply to the real-world. This ensures that nobody is hogging the spotlight, and everyone's relevant in the same time-zone.

    The problem is, this dramatically simplifies how Decking and Astral Travelling works, but...that's the cost of making the game work, right? Shadowrun's starting to become kinda obscure, and they gotta find a way to fix the problems they keep repeating.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2019-06-05 at 05:34 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    More a setting question than a system one: Are Obsidimen (from Earthdawn) likely to show up?

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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    More a setting question than a system one: Are Obsidimen (from Earthdawn) likely to show up?
    I'd be shocked if they ever showed up as PCs or anything.

    I know that T'Skrang-like creatures have been mentioned (as "Chupacabras") in the jungles of Madagascar, and I could imagine that at some point a similarly obscure reference to Obisidmen shows up somewhere (or maybe even has, I can't claim to know every sourcebook released in the last decade or so by heart), but probably not ever as a relevant thing in the setting.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    I'd be shocked if they ever showed up as PCs or anything.

    I know that T'Skrang-like creatures have been mentioned (as "Chupacabras") in the jungles of Madagascar, and I could imagine that at some point a similarly obscure reference to Obisidmen shows up somewhere (or maybe even has, I can't claim to know every sourcebook released in the last decade or so by heart), but probably not ever as a relevant thing in the setting.
    Given the description in Cyberpriates of chupacabras as HMHVV-infected lemurs, I never considered that the critters were supposed to be t'skrang. Which, in all likelihood, will not show up either, as the Earthdawn IP, being under the auspices of a resurrected FASA, has had to pull hard away from Topps-owned Shadowrun.

    (Also, according to post-Earthdawn Shadowrun replacement 1879, the t'skrang were from another planet but managed to migrate to Earth via a cyclical magical portal. All t'skrang on Earth died by the end of the Age of Legends, but 1879 deals with finding another connection with their world, which Victorian Britons are attempting to ruthlessly exploit with steamtech.)

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    For Decking/Astral Traveling, It'd probably be best to simplify both systems to have the results be near-instant (most scenarios where they're relevant, they're practically near-instant in universe-time anyway), and then provide some kind of long-term, real-life benefit for maintaining their connection to the other side.

    ...

    The problem is, this dramatically simplifies how Decking and Astral Travelling works, but...that's the cost of making the game work, right? Shadowrun's starting to become kinda obscure, and they gotta find a way to fix the problems they keep repeating.
    Well yeah, the two ways to make spotlighting sub-systems work are:

    1. Have everyone else be able to contribute even in sub-par ways. (Shadowrun's combat does this pretty well, with the decker being able to shoot of gun for some effect but pale in comparison to what the street samurai does.)

    2. Have the sub-system be fast. (A max of 2-3 minutes - and that's pushing it.)

    I agree that #2 could certainly work, but it's possible that the decker might get grumpier about being so sub-par in combat if he doesn't get to hog the spotlight as much. (Pure speculation.) Maybe it'd work better if it was easier to overlap decking & rigging drones in combat so that the character would have stuff to do there?

    #2 is actually the way I went with the system I'm working on for hacking & piloting etc. But they aren't things that a character has to be fully dedicated to, leaving them sub-par in fighting monstrous aliens or space pirates.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-06-05 at 09:19 PM.

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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by SaurOps View Post
    Given the description in Cyberpriates of chupacabras as HMHVV-infected lemurs, I never considered that the critters were supposed to be t'skrang. Which, in all likelihood, will not show up either, as the Earthdawn IP, being under the auspices of a resurrected FASA, has had to pull hard away from Topps-owned Shadowrun.

    (Also, according to post-Earthdawn Shadowrun replacement 1879, the t'skrang were from another planet but managed to migrate to Earth via a cyclical magical portal. All t'skrang on Earth died by the end of the Age of Legends, but 1879 deals with finding another connection with their world, which Victorian Britons are attempting to ruthlessly exploit with steamtech.)
    I always figured that the precursors of the t'skrang were the afanc, from Paranormal Animals of Europe. That critter book had windlings, and the afanc had a suspcious range of Wales and the entire Ukraine.

    I know that some of the 4e and 5e books had rumors of "stone trolls" associated with dragon lairs (and roundly derided as an urban legend), but I can't remember for the life of me which ones they were.

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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Telwar View Post
    I always figured that the precursors of the t'skrang were the afanc, from Paranormal Animals of Europe. That critter book had windlings, and the afanc had a suspcious range of Wales and the entire Ukraine.
    I'm not seeing how those go together. The t'skrang are humanoid reptiles with a wide range of clashing features (riverine preferences, beaks with teeth, flexible tails). An afanc is a crocodilian, and not even humanoid in the slightest. The habitation range doesn't even enter into it at that point.

    I know that some of the 4e and 5e books had rumors of "stone trolls" associated with dragon lairs (and roundly derided as an urban legend), but I can't remember for the life of me which ones they were.
    Obsidimen are a good deal shorter than trolls, though, and don't have horns or tusks. Their natural armor is also shaped very differently. It's doubtful that anyone would mistake them for trolls. On the other hand, we already have plenty of rules for spirit inhabitation of objects, such as statues, used for homunculi.
    Last edited by SaurOps; 2019-06-06 at 09:41 PM.

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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by SaurOps View Post
    I'm not seeing how those go together. The t'skrang are humanoid reptiles with a wide range of clashing features (riverine preferences, beaks with teeth, flexible tails). An afanc is a crocodilian, and not even humanoid in the slightest. The habitation range doesn't even enter into it at that point.
    Like I said, *awakened* Afanc...which are of course already awakened crocs. So the idea is it's an intermediate stage.

    But the range was the main thing. I've never been aware of a tradition of crocodilians in Ukraine, and to have them show up there in addition to Wales seemed rather suspicious to me.

    Of course, I realize that this was unlikely. But that was an *awfully* suspicious range...



    Obsidimen are a good deal shorter than trolls, though, and don't have horns or tusks. Their natural armor is also shaped very differently. It's doubtful that anyone would mistake them for trolls. On the other hand, we already have plenty of rules for spirit inhabitation of objects, such as statues, used for homunculi.
    On the other hand, the people in setting reporting that they see these "stone trolls" aren't necessarily going to default to "it's a possessed object." And since nobody really sees sasquatches that often, a weird thing that you see walking around on its own accord that looks like it's made of rock, you're going to default to a troll, since that's relatively common and I don't think they'd think of orks.

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    Default Re: New 6th Edition Shadowrun has been announced. Lets talk about it

    Quote Originally Posted by Telwar View Post
    Like I said, *awakened* Afanc...which are of course already awakened crocs. So the idea is it's an intermediate stage.

    But the range was the main thing. I've never been aware of a tradition of crocodilians in Ukraine, and to have them show up there in addition to Wales seemed rather suspicious to me.

    Of course, I realize that this was unlikely. But that was an *awfully* suspicious range...
    Edit: Dropping it.

    On the other hand, the people in setting reporting that they see these "stone trolls" aren't necessarily going to default to "it's a possessed object."
    Well, most people would probably skip the "inhabiting an object" part of "spirit inhabiting an object" when something weird of that sort showed up. Or possibly that they're looking at a gargoyle.

    And since nobody really sees sasquatches that often, a weird thing that you see walking around on its own accord that looks like it's made of rock, you're going to default to a troll, since that's relatively common and I don't think they'd think of orks.
    Since when were trolls made of rock, or even vaguely in the vicinity of appearing to be made of rock? And why did you bring sasquatches into it?
    Last edited by SaurOps; 2019-06-08 at 09:52 PM.

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