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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    MitD knew her, and he might have told O-Chul about her.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post

    Well.

    Huh, that does communication more difficult.
    Use Vaaruvius' Greater Animal Messenger to send a message, and attach a physical letter as well for safety. Make sure to have the outside of the letter say it's from Gobbotopia Administration or something to guarentee Xykon won't want to read it but Redcloak will. Include honorifics too.

    Praise be unto Tha Dark One, who stands as a hope to us all!

    Praise be unto Redcloak, who bears tha Crimson Mantle!

    Dear Redcloak,

    Sorry aboot tha deception, but something big has come up in tha Outer Planes. Thor believes that Tha Dark One may be vital to saving tha world from tha Snarl. Cannae say much here, but Thor's willin' to talk an' listen if The Dark One is. Accordin' ta what he told me, it shouldn't be difficult, but does need cooperation.

    If ye dinnae have a problem wit' diplomacy, please use enclosed scroll to send reply. Wit' any luck, this'll work, an' Tha Dark One will get full pantheon starting recognition.

    Sincerely,

    Durkon Thundershield, Priest o' Thor


    Enclosed scroll could be any of the various 'send message to someone far away' spells, though most likely Sending. It shows that they're at least invested enough to pay his expenses.

    Or, more on topic, here's a Sending-only version:

    Thor reqeusts divine ceasefire. Willing to talk with The Dark One. Can save world and give goblins Pantheon. Is diplomacy a possibility on this matter?
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    "Snarl destroyed millions of worlds. Dark One won't survive recreation time if Snarl gets loose. Cannot permanently trap Snarl without him. Thor requests negotiations."
    This to me looks the best so far, but I think more on the fact that for RedClock is a "win-win" situation:

    - threat the old Gods with the snarl and negotiate better condition, or
    - destroy the world and be part of the rebuilding process.

    Now, the second is the one Thor discourage (because Dark one might not survive recreation time); But Dark One hasn't to threat them with a fully working portal: seems it is already worked. Red Clock has the equivalent of the nuclear deterrent. My message would be:

    "North pantheon wants to discuss treaty with the Dark One, I'm their emissary, I've intelligence to share. Suspend hostility"
    ++ =

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindfolded Ape View Post
    Thor reqeusts divine ceasefire. Willing to talk with The Dark One. Can save world and give goblins Pantheon. Is diplomacy a possibility on this matter?
    The problem with these sorts of messages (practically all of what I"m seeing), is that it uses Redcloak as a way to try to reach the Dark One. That isn't the point. The Dark One is supposedly a lost cause. What Thor suggested is not that Durkon reaches out to Redcloak to convince the Dark One to alter his plans, but to reach out to Redcloak to convince Redcloak to abandon his path and contain the Snarl.

    That's a good deal harder to do in 25 words than simply try to open a dialogue. By the way, from what we're told, any attempt to open a dialogue would be interpreted as a trick.

    So in 25 words are less, instead of trying to start a parley, simply convinced Redcloak to abandon his god's purpose, stop what he's doing, reverse course completely, and contain the Snarl along with a complete stranger he only knows as his mortal enemy.

    One last detail, Redcloak is the guy who is still has all of goblin-kind toady-ing to Xykon because of all the sunk costs there. This is a priest who has a history of choosing a path and a willingness to stick to it even if it means
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    killing his only family
    .

    I'm sure you'll find it a lot easier now that you know your task is to convince the most fanatic of the Dark One's followers to completely do a 180 on his whole divine mission thing, the mission he's already sacrificed so much to accomplish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    That's a good deal harder to do in 25 words than simply try to open a dialogue. By the way, from what we're told, any attempt to open a dialogue would be interpreted as a trick.
    Exactly. Redcloak would see any attempt at diplomacy as a trick, because

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    The Dark One tried negotiating a non-violent solution before, only to be stabbed in the back for it.


    Redcloak would likely view any attempt at "diplomacy" by Durkon in this light.

    I think the ideal solution is to frame cooperation as a way to cut out Xykon; an argument that appeals to the good of Goblinkind will be seen as a trick, but one that presents the possibility of Xykon being taken out of the picture while still allowing room for The Plan's ultimate objective might be seen more favorably by Redcloak.
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-05-22 at 12:10 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindfolded Ape View Post
    Thor reqeusts divine ceasefire. Willing to talk with The Dark One. Can save world and give goblins Pantheon.
    Redcloak's reply: "No thanks, we already have one! Also, fun fact, the world being destroyed is literally plan B, so no biggie on not saving it. Cheers!"
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    You can make sending lnger by neglecting soaces.
    make everything one word.
    Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.
    I may be dating myself here, but that reminds me of this commercial:

    https://youtu.be/9JxhTnWrKYs

    As for if Sending would allow that, I feel like there's some sort of "stupid God rule" (as Thor would say) preventing that. As a DM...I'd allow it once for comedic reasons and then ban it after.
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-05-22 at 10:47 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.
    sorry for the horrible grammar and spelling.
    But, I am typing this on tge experimental browser on a kindle at about 2:00am most of the tine, so cut me some slack
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    sorry for the horrible grammar and spelling.
    But, I am typing this on tge experimental browser on a kindle at about 2:00am most of the tine, so cut me some slack
    I think the person who responded to you was basically agreeing with your point, but instead of neglecting spaces they posited that perhaps another language could be used because certain ones have extremely long words that convey entire ideas/meanings. I'm not an expert on languages, so I could be wrong, but that's what I took away from the post.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.
    Unfortunately, the people who designed the rules for D&D seem to assume that all foreign languages are just English, with different words in a slightly different order, and maybe a different way of writing.
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    I understand that in the translation of the rules to other languages, the translators effectively throw up their hands in the air and say, for spells such as Command, that it's up to the DM to choose whether to allow the spell to be completely broken in the local language, or to enforce "magic speaks English" rules.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2019-05-23 at 11:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Unfortunately, the people who designed the rules for D&D seem to assume that all foreign languages are just English, with different words in a slightly different order, and maybe a different way of writing.

    Grey Wolf
    I think it's less assuming and more not caring to go into the level of complexity likely required because they're writing the books in English. They're game designers, not linguists, and I'm fine with that (and also biased, but still).
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Just change it from e.g. "25 words" to "significantly smaller number of noun phrases and/or main verbs". Problem solved after some balancing, plus you have everyone at the table doing syntactic analysis, so it's win-win.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Just change it from e.g. "25 words" to "significantly smaller number of noun phrases and/or main verbs". Problem solved after some balancing, plus you have everyone at the table doing syntactic analysis, so it's win-win.
    I would change it to: "No more than 100 syllables." Or some other number.

    Hell I would probably do that for english-like languages anyway.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    I think the person who responded to you was basically agreeing with your point, but instead of neglecting spaces they posited that perhaps another language could be used because certain ones have extremely long words that convey entire ideas/meanings. I'm not an expert on languages, so I could be wrong, but that's what I took away from the post.
    I thought he was saying that my typing was illegible...
    But that works too.
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Redcloak's reply: "No thanks, we already have one! Also, fun fact, the world being destroyed is literally plan B, so no biggie on not saving it. Cheers!"
    Heeeeeyyyyyyy....

    The universe is like, still really big right? (I think aliens are mostly a non-issue though given the Gods focus on this one)
    But, in theory, the Snarl cannot travel at faster than light speed without a destination (implied or otherwise) and will not actively seek out a specific source of life, just things in general (maybe just sources of Deific energy?). Therefore, by moving it to the outermost area of the Outer Planes, the Snarl will spend its time devouring everything in the Outer Planes before moving onto the Material Plane, meaning that there is plenty of time for RC and everyone else to live, grow old, and die before the Snarl gets there. Problem solved!

    ...10 points if you manage to convince me that's the ultimate Neutral action instead of the ultimate Evil one.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2019-05-25 at 10:36 PM.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Heeeeeyyyyyyy....

    The universe is like, still really big right? (I think aliens are mostly a non-issue though given the Gods focus on this one)
    But, in theory, the Snarl cannot travel at faster than light speed without a destination (implied or otherwise) and will not actively seek out a specific source of life, just things in general (maybe just sources of Deific energy?). Therefore, by moving it to the outermost area of the Outer Planes, the Snarl will spend its time devouring everything in the Outer Planes before moving onto the Material Plane, meaning that there is plenty of time for RC and everyone else to live, grow old, and die before the Snarl gets there. Problem solved!

    ...10 points if you manage to convince me that's the ultimate Neutral action instead of the ultimate Evil one.
    Or tey could move it, and then build another world-prison....
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KarlMarx View Post
    Or, on a perhaps more serious/comprehensible note, could you send in a mutually understood agglutinative language if any exist, like real-world Hungarian or Turkish? You can get single words that have as much density of meaning as a sentence in an isolating language like real-world English and OOTSverse common.
    Turkish, for example, would look like this:

    Karanlık Kişinin hayatı tehlikede. "Snarl" geçmişte bizimkine benzer milyarlarca dünyayı yok etmiş! Bu dünya yok edilirse, Karanlık Kişi de yok olacak! Firmament'de buluşup konuşup anlaşalım.
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by martianmister View Post
    Turkish, for example, would look like this:

    Karanlık Kişinin hayatı tehlikede. "Snarl" geçmişte bizimkine benzer milyarlarca dünyayı yok etmiş! Bu dünya yok edilirse, Karanlık Kişi de yok olacak! Firmament'de buluşup konuşup anlaşalım.
    what does that mean in english though?
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    what does that mean in english though?
    The Dark One's life is in danger. "The Snarl" did destroy billions of worlds similar to ours! If this world is destroyed, the Dark One, too, will be destroyed! Let's meet at Firmament and talk about it.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Here’s my attempt. Requires three Sendings, and for the Order to talk the gods into being willing to offer a lot more than they’re currently offering. Assumes (possibly incorrectly) that Durkon is somewhat aware of Redcloak’s grievances.

    Gods are aware of Plan to threaten to release Snarl on Outer Planes. Threats are not necessary to gain goblinoid equality.

    Gods are willing to make major concessions in return for Dark One’s assistance in containing Snarl. If world is destroyed, the Dark One won’t survive.

    Meet to discuss?
    Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2019-05-26 at 08:20 AM.

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Speaking of OotS religion and Snarl, don't forget the infernal trio running their own plot to seemingly destroy all good gods (and maybe all the gods).

    Which also raises the question if the infernals (and angels and whatnot) are also aware of the whole "zillion worlds destroyed".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Speaking of OotS religion and Snarl, don't forget the infernal trio running their own plot to seemingly destroy all good gods (and maybe all the gods).

    Which also raises the question if the infernals (and angels and whatnot) are also aware of the whole "zillion worlds destroyed".
    It doesn’t. Their memories are wiped as per canon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It doesn’t. Their memories are wiped as per canon.

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    They still know about the snarl which they shouldn't, so their memories either weren't wiped properly or they've found about it through other means. One way or the other, they may be aware of the zillion destructions as well now.

    This is, if Thor is willing to share that intel with Durkon, certainly some evil god could've spilled the beans to some villain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    They still know about the snarl which they shouldn't, so their memories either weren't wiped properly or they've found about it through other means. One way or the other, they may be aware of the zillion destructions as well now.
    Didn't they learn it from Sabine?
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    They still know about the snarl which they shouldn't, so their memories either weren't wiped properly or they've found about it through other means.
    Specifically the means of Sabine telling them about it in the comic.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    However they found out about the world-within in-between appearances when Sabine did not, so they have a second source of intel.
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    However they found out about the world-within in-between appearances when Sabine did not, so they have a second source of intel.
    They've been watching V.

    On topic, if we assume that RC is rational and that RC could convince TDO if given sufficient information and a proper pitch, I'd just say that I have more information about the gates that might complicate the plan, and meet to parley. Of course, if that tactic had a chance of working, some god would just send a messenger to RC directly and cut out the need for Durkon.

    As it stands, with TDO being understandably paranoid and RC having a massive sunk cost fallacy going on, something's going to have to break him first.

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    However they found out about the world-within in-between appearances when Sabine did not, so they have a second source of intel.
    When was that revealed?

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Contrast the Directors' reaction to Sabine's.
    Though I guess, it is possibleb they just eavesdropped on Blackwing and V.
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