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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Redcloak is a primary spellcaster cleric, he is zero focused in melee. Durkon is the opposite. O-Chul managed to overpower him naked and with nothing but an improvised weapon, by catching him by surprise*. A Durkon backed by the rest of the Order would be able to overpower him easily.

    Of course the scenario of "the Order destroys Xykon then overpowers Redcloak and forces him to listen" doesn't makes for a great story (the one that would is Durkon's proposal driving a wedge in the already measly alliance between Redcloak and Xykon). But if we are discussing what would hypotetically be Durkon's best scenario, in my oppinion this one is it. Specially taking into considetation that, from the Order's perspective, Redcloak is nothing but Xykon's subdued lackey (see the fight at the dream sequence).

    * By the way, it is interesting that Redcloak is now drawn wearing heavy armor, until now he had been wearking just a robe. Perhaps after the affair with O-Chul he has decided to invest more in physical protection.
    Redcloak probably dumped str. Plus, goblins get: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

    His con and dex might not be all that fantastic either. Heck, aside from having the minimum wisdom for casting lvl 9 spells, we don't have any other indications of particularly high stats in any ability. Perhaps above average intelligence, but that could be 14 for all we know.
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    The scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Redcloak probably dumped str. Plus, goblins get: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.

    His con and dex might not be all that fantastic either. Heck, aside from having the minimum wisdom for casting lvl 9 spells, we don't have any other indications of particularly high stats in any ability. Perhaps above average intelligence, but that could be 14 for all we know.
    Goblins may not have a Strength penalty in the OOTSverse. In 3.5, most Small races have Strength penalties, and goblins are Small, so they wind up weaker than humans on average. However, a Medium-sized goblin lacks that reason for having a Strength penalty.

    For that matter, OOTSverse goblins may lack a Dexterity bonus, too, as higher Dexterity is often coupled with smaller size.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    He's able to lift/push the MITD in the box onto some kind of wagon (can't remember) during the circus escape.

    His INT should be equal or higher than Xykon's. From the way he plans out stuff, I'm getting the vibe of being at least as smart as Haley or Roy.

    He tanks a fair amount of punishment in Azure City throne room.

    I'm guessing he dumped Dex.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    He might have above average CHA too.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    He might not have a dump stat; certain characters have across-the-board average/above average stats with some stats higher than those (Roy, Miko, probably Tarquin). Oots doesn't run by a points buy system; it's probably luck of the dice, and some players get much better stats than others (hooray for inequality!)
    Redcloak might have average stats across the board, an 18/19 in wisdom, and still suck in melee. Not because of any deficiency in his character sheet, but because of his character. He relies on his divine powers rather than physical exertion. I mean, he doesn't even carry a weapon...

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    I kind of got the impression that Redcloak's physical stats were all average/mediocre/dump (probably strength dump) and his mental stats were all pretty good, with wisdom obviously being much better than all other stats as he casts from that. To me he seems to display above average charisma and intelligence (particularly intelligence) and his general abilities in the comic center around intelligent strategy, leadership, and using his own/Team Evil's knowledge to maximum effect. To be fair, hobgoblin society appears to be pretty obedient, but I still think leadership comes into play. Whereas he doesn't display any indication of any of his physical stats being particularly noteworthy.

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalFailure View Post
    I kind of got the impression that Redcloak's physical stats were all average/mediocre/dump (probably strength dump) and his mental stats were all pretty good, with wisdom obviously being much better than all other stats as he casts from that. To me he seems to display above average charisma and intelligence (particularly intelligence) and his general abilities in the comic center around intelligent strategy, leadership, and using his own/Team Evil's knowledge to maximum effect. To be fair, hobgoblin society appears to be pretty obedient, but I still think leadership comes into play. Whereas he doesn't display any indication of any of his physical stats being particularly noteworthy.
    He managed to convince a whole bunch of hobgoblins to walk into certain death. Pretty hgh charisma.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    You don't need an epic-level Diplomacy roll to get people to Fanatic if they're already fanatical.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    You don't need an epic-level Diplomacy roll to get people to Fanatic if they're already fanatical.
    ...Unless they're fanatical of not being a fanatic of he who doesn't think he needs epic-level Diplomacy rolls?
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    Wow, i can’t believe it, WotC actually made the rules compatible for a situation in which an ape demon is leaping into the air to knock a vampire out of a Poylmorphed T-rex’s jaws who is flying 120 feet above the ground.
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    In less than 25 words

    Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    In less than 25 words

    Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.
    Too bad they can't force her to cast a scroll to contact him to prove they've got her alive. She's like the Martha of the OOTSverse.

    -

    On a side note, I think RC's charisma is most apparent in his speech in founding Gobbotopia -- it's in the same vein as the pre-battle speeches Elan dishes out or the Godsmoot plea Roy gives, in that it does require some persuasive/forceful personality to say that in front of strangers. I don't think it's something V or Durkon could pull off (unless the circumstance warranted it).

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    In less than 25 words

    Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Too bad they can't force her to cast a scroll to contact him to prove they've got her alive.
    Redcloak's reply: "You know Scrying is just 5th level, right? Short version, no you don't. Long version, no you don't and also I'm going to kill you."
    Cuthalion's avatars rock. Like this very fine dragon he made me.

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    In less than 25 words

    Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.
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    Why would Recloak care more for her than he cared for her father?
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Well, he did b*tchslap a paladin's face to bloody chunks when his brother was threatened. Granted, that was way before he became a true villain, but if Xykon doesn't know about it (and shouldn't, since only RC can see the sending) and it doesn't interfere with the Plan...I mean, one of the many reasons he wages war on Azure City was for his mom.

    edit: spelling
    Last edited by understatement; 2019-05-07 at 04:01 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    In less than 25 words

    Redcloak. I have your niece. Meet at Kraagor's gate. She walks free if you discuss our future in good faith.
    I like how you think.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
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    Why would Recloak care more for her than he cared for her father?
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    He wouldn’t, but the situations aren’t strictly comparable, because Redcloak doesn’t necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet Durkon. It’s a risk, but not a risk on the level of betraying Xykon.

    Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
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    He wouldn’t, but the situations aren’t strictly comparable, because Redcloak doesn’t necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet Durkon. It’s a risk, but not a risk on the level of betraying Xykon.

    Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything.
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    In the same way The Dark One didn't necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet with the human kings, of course.
    Cuthalion's avatars rock. Like this very fine dragon he made me.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    In the same way The Dark One didn't necessarily give up anything by agreeing to meet with the human kings, of course.
    Sure. And we are talking about the goblin cleric who believes that “stupid risks are just that - stupid.”

    So you have to give him a reason why the risk is worth taking. I think he would be willing to take what he perceives as a reasonable risk to protect That Person (too lazy to bother with spoiler tags, though apparently industrious enough to type out this parenthetical), but I’m sure that, if he did, he would take every precaution in case of betrayal.

    That said, as I alluded to earlier, I disagree that the reason you give necessarily has to be one that he would perceive as inflammatory. If you can give Redcloak an actual reason why his ultimate goals will be furthered by meeting with you - and, if you’re Durkon, you can - why wouldn’t you?
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I am bemused that the Pilgrim is pushing "forget the whole diplomacy thing, just beat the greenskin into submission or death" so hard.

    There are lots of people on this forum I would have expected that from, but not previously him.
    Don't look at me, Redcloak never mistreated Durkon personally and/or in a context in which he could not react. Also I know Redcloak is much more powerful than Durkon. Also I understand Redcloak's point of view. In short, I have standards and, in this case, mine are not met.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2019-05-08 at 08:49 AM.
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about unmake current world as myriad before. Thor stop this, if TDO helps. Gonna be worth it!
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about unmake current world as myriad before. Thor stop this, if TDO helps. Gonna be worth it!
    It took me three reads to understand that Blackmail is a reference to their chainmail being black. I kept looking for the "do what I say or threat" section of the blackmailing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It took me three reads to understand that Blackmail is a reference to their chainmail being black. I kept looking for the "do what I say or threat" section of the blackmailing.

    Grey Wolf
    It took until I read your comment, and even then I'm confused. Are LG dwarf clericstudents of Thor stereotypically clad in blackened chainmail?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-08 at 09:50 AM.
    Cuthalion's avatars rock. Like this very fine dragon he made me.

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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Which is not to say that I endorse the plan of taking a hostage just to get Redcloak to meet. It seems like a great way to make him more hostile without necessarily gaining much of anything.
    Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan with a sugggested edit View Post
    Hi Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods about to unmake current world. Thor stops this if TDO helps. Worth it; let's talk details
    I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-05-08 at 10:01 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.
    I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :
    My problem with this is that in RC's mind, that is still a win for TDO, since it is supposed to give him a seat at the table of the creation of the next world. The crucial information that the TDO will starve before that happens needs to be included, or RC will just go "oh, good, the Plan is working".

    (This does assume that this hypothetical cleric has access to knowledge from both RC's plan and Thor's at the same time, something no-one in OotS currently has, to the best of my recollection)

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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I would say that's the dumbest theory Grey Wolf's heard, but, let's be honest: It's Grey Wolf. They've probably heard dumber theories today. Point is, neat idea, but it's a real stretch.
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_C View Post
    The crucial information that the TDO will starve before that happens needs to be included, or RC will just go "oh, good, the Plan is working".
    Good point, it needs a slight word smithing to fold in your concern.

    @Vinydan: care to try a second draft?
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2019-05-08 at 02:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Player agency doesn't mean they get to roll for everything. Agency means that they control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Good point, it needs a slight word smithing to fold in your concern.

    @Vinydan: care to try a second draft?
    Errr... you quoted me but put Vinydan as the author

    Grey Wolf

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Because I somehow missed this reply...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Dwarves are practical people. A proper dwarf shouldn't waste resources in a sending spell for an enemy unless he makes damn sure the receiver is going to Listen.
    A.) If your hammer is in Redcloak's mouth already, then casting a Sending is already a waste of resources because Redcloak is, by definition, within "I'm holding my hammer in his mouth" distance.
    2.) The dwarf in question either knows Xykon's phylactery is held by Redcloak (latest knowledge from Niu), or has no idea where the phylactery is. In either case, it is one hell of a poor bluff.
    Cuthalion's avatars rock. Like this very fine dragon he made me.

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Who said that Durkon has to actually take a hostage? The point is the message, and to get Red Cloak's attention such that they meet.
    I like where you went with this. Hope you like the edit. :
    Even better if you make The Person send the message. Said person probably grew up among humans, so should be easier to convince to collaborate than Redcloak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    A.) If your hammer is in Redcloak's mouth already, then casting a Sending is already a waste of resources because Redcloak is, by definition, within "I'm holding my hammer in his mouth" distance.
    It's only a waste of resources according to your twisted human undisciplined viewpoint. Dwarves are disciplined, honor-bound people. If contacting Redcloak via a Sending is the honorable thing to do, a Dwarf will do it and it will not be a waste of resources in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    2.) The dwarf in question either knows Xykon's phylactery is held by Redcloak (latest knowledge from Niu), or has no idea where the phylactery is. In either case, it is one hell of a poor bluff.
    So, you are saying that having destroyed an Epic-Level Sorcerer Lich is a poor bluff that you can do the same to a non-epic Goblin Cleric. If Redcloak is holding the Phylactery, all the better, then he knows Xykon has been destroyed. In case he missed the ka-boom during the battle which ended with your hammer in his mouth.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-05-08 at 01:03 PM.

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Errr... you quoted me but put Vinydan as the author

    Grey Wolf
    Fixed. Gaah, some days, my multiquoting is all over the place like a one year old's spaghetti.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Player agency doesn't mean they get to roll for everything. Agency means that they control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also quite handsome) or so I am told ... by 2D8HP

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    Default Re: How would you, as a religious cleric, write your thesis?

    OK, let's make another try (starting from Korvin's version).

    Redcloak! Blackmail speaking. TDO plan fail; gods boutta unmake world; TDO too young, no survive. Thor stops this if TDO helps. Worth talk details!


    "Blackmail" was a joke about Redcloak's name. Also, the first version I had thought had a more violent approach (Thor WILL kill TDO if he doesn't help him, so it treated it more as an extortion).
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

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