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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    I am currently making a setting, and one of the villains is supposed to be from a tribe of catfolk that specializes on wielding scythes, with this specific one using 2 of them, and gaining a reputation of being able to mow down entire armies with impunity.

    What I am looking for mechanically is a catfolk (Races of the Wild) that dual weilds scythes (So monkey grip + TWF line), and is able to kill an army of 1000 fighters 1-5 by themselves. So far the closest I have been able to think is barbarian with dervish to get great cleave + moving around a lot to kill a bunch of mobs, but it is underwhelming.

    For sources, I am using all 3.5 books, except for setting exclusive content (so Eberron or Forgotten realms stuff is out) or stuff that never got converted to 3.5 (As book of vile darkness).

    Any and all help is apreciated, thank you for your time.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Scythes are Two Handed Weapons, so Monkey Grip doesn't really allow you to dual wield Scythes.

    I honestly have no idea if it's possible to twf with two handed weapons without acquiring extra arms

    Of course, as DM, you can always give him the "Scythe TWF" feat and call it a day, but that would be a house rule

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    If Monkey Grip doesn't work, Strongarm Bracers (MIC) should...

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    I can hardly think of a more outrageous and difficult weapon to dual wield! Scythes aren't even a sensible two-handed weapon...

    But then again: catfolk. Let's not enter into verisimilitude / reality / science arguments, when there are catfolk at stake.

    Invent a new feat:

    Dashing Cleave
    You move from foe to foe in a chain of cleaving destruction
    Prerequisite: Great cleave, Spring attack, BAB 10+
    Benefit: This works like Great Cleave, except you may move between opponents who are up to 5 ft apart each. You may move up to your base movement rate in this manner.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Scythes sized for a Small creature would be one-handed weapons with a -2 penalty to hit for 1d6 weapon damage.

    Strongarm Bracers mean you count as Large, so you could wield Medium scythes, albeit with the same -2 penalty.

    You'd then want Oversized TWF to mitigate the penalties for fighting with two one-handed weapons.

    I wouldn't bother with the further TWF feat chain though. Instead what you want is to be Warblade focusing on Tiger Claw manoeuvres.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    In mechanical terms the scythe has about three things going for it:

    (1) Two-handed, so x1.5 STR damage and 2x Power Attack investment
    (2) Higher crit multiplier: x4
    (3) Trip attack.

    If you're going TWF item (1) disappears, so immediately you can start looking at other weapons.

    You can get the x4 critical multiplier if your DM allows you access to Kaorti Resin weapons. It takes a Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, but this multiplier then applies to the piercing or slashing weapon you use, i.e. same damage types as the scythe gives you.

    Trip attacks: you can do that with a sickle. Does 1d6 damage, i.e. short sword damage, but you can make trip attacks with it, and because it's a one-handed weapon, it's far easier to dual-wield it.

    So yeah. Try a Kaorti Resin sickle. Once you spend the EWP on the Kaorti Resin Sickle, follow the TWF and trip-optimising lines.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninerga View Post
    What I am looking for mechanically is a catfolk (Races of the Wild) that dual weilds scythes (So monkey grip + TWF line), and is able to kill an army of 1000 fighters 1-5 by themselves.
    To paraphrase Morbo, "MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!". The text of the feat:

    "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll but the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon does not change." (emphasis added)

    The "amount of effort" phrase here refers to the handed-ness of the weapon. A two-handed weapon still requires two hands to wield. So for a Catfolk to dual-wield scythes, then he'd probably have to have four arms. The easiest way to do that would probably be a Totemist 2 dip to pick of the Girallon Arms soulmeld (although it's not clear from the text if the extra arms can wield weapons). There are several other methods to add arms, such as templates, grafts, spell effects, etc., but if you didn't intend for your villain to have four arms, then that might not work for you.

    There is a way to dual-wield a pair of scythes that doesn't involve extra arms, but it's a bit wonky... get a pair of Sun Blades (DMG p. 228), preferably a version that doesn't require a good alignment. Add the Morphing property (+1 enhancement, MIC) to both. The Sun Blade counts as a bastard sword, which is a two-handed martial weapon, but it "feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword". Morph both Sun Blades into scythes, and you can still dual-wield them as if they were light weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninerga View Post
    So far the closest I have been able to think is barbarian with dervish to get great cleave + moving around a lot to kill a bunch of mobs, but it is underwhelming.
    Great Cleave just allows you to make multiple Cleaves during your turn. It doesn't allow you to move between cleaves. Dervish Dance allows you to move between attacks, but there are easier ways to get the "Supreme Cleave" class ability, which is probably what you were thinking of as Great Cleave. Frenzied Berserker 2, for example. You may be limited by the distance you can move, but there are various ways to buff your speed.

    Paimon's Dance of Death (Tome of Magic) lets you move around and make one attack against every opponent, but it doesn't work with TWF or Cleave. Likewise, Whirlwind Attack has a similar problem. If throwing the scythes is acceptable, Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle) could use Blood Wind Ricochet or Blade Storm to clear out a good chunk of the battlefield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninerga View Post
    For sources, I am using all 3.5 books, except for setting exclusive content (so Eberron or Forgotten realms stuff is out) or stuff that never got converted to 3.5 (As book of vile darkness).
    All 3.0 material that wasn't updated to 3.5 is still valid and legal in 3.5 games. It may require tweaking, so I usually refer to this as the "DMG page 4" or "minor adjustment" clause.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Just monkey grip large kamas instead.

    BTW, twf is super underwhelming and you pretty much can't change that without some dumb tricks. Though to make it possible to kill a thousand soldiers is easy. Actually, any decent melee bruiser can do that, because the soldiers can't hit them and they all die in one hit.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Just monkey grip large kamas instead.
    ↑This.

    Other two possible ways: either get your catgirl an extra pair of arms, or use Weapon Graft from Fiend Folio

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninerga View Post
    I am currently making a setting, and one of the villains is supposed to be from a tribe of catfolk that specializes on wielding scythes, with this specific one using 2 of them, and gaining a reputation of being able to mow down entire armies with impunity.

    What I am looking for mechanically is a catfolk (Races of the Wild) that dual weilds scythes (So monkey grip + TWF line), and is able to kill an army of 1000 fighters 1-5 by themselves. So far the closest I have been able to think is barbarian with dervish to get great cleave + moving around a lot to kill a bunch of mobs, but it is underwhelming.

    For sources, I am using all 3.5 books, except for setting exclusive content (so Eberron or Forgotten realms stuff is out) or stuff that never got converted to 3.5 (As book of vile darkness).

    Any and all help is apreciated, thank you for your time.
    You obviously have a strong mental image of this, and I can't imagine what it looks like. Are you perhaps imagining a sickle instead of a scythe? scythe are so unwieldy, how are you mentally imagining this looking like?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun;
    I'm imagining this guy when he's lvl 20, asked to give a speech for the graduating class of the Magicianl Institute of Theurgy: "Who will answer the call? If you're smart, not you! Abandoning my comrades to certain death has made me the successful mage I am today. When the world sends a hellcat to rip out the throats of your friends, you stay on that floor and milk as much healing out of your healer as possible."

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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Would Permanency + Enlarge Person work? I assume a Large Catfolk could dual-wield scythes designed for medium sized people.

    Light the lamp not the rat LIGHT THE LAMP NOT THE RAT!!!

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    At a -2 penalty, yes

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    You could graft a couple of extra arms and use the Multiweapon Fighting feat tree.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Scythes are Two Handed Weapons, so Monkey Grip doesn't really allow you to dual wield Scythes.

    I honestly have no idea if it's possible to twf with two handed weapons without acquiring extra arms

    Of course, as DM, you can always give him the "Scythe TWF" feat and call it a day, but that would be a house rule
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    To paraphrase Morbo, "MONKEY GRIP DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!". The text of the feat:

    "You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll but the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon does not change." (emphasis added)

    The "amount of effort" phrase here refers to the handed-ness of the weapon. A two-handed weapon still requires two hands to wield. So for a Catfolk to dual-wield scythes, then he'd probably have to have four arms. The easiest way to do that would probably be a Totemist 2 dip to pick of the Girallon Arms soulmeld (although it's not clear from the text if the extra arms can wield weapons). There are several other methods to add arms, such as templates, grafts, spell effects, etc., but if you didn't intend for your villain to have four arms, then that might not work for you.
    And then my whole idea was wrong due to lack of reading skills. I guess I could cheese something by using the stoneblessed class to become a goliath and thus count as a large creature, but that may be a bit of a stretch, and I am not sure I want to do it with this specific character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    If Monkey Grip doesn't work, Strongarm Bracers (MIC) should...
    Hm, that can work, and would give the character a weakness in making him dependent on a magic item.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    There is a way to dual-wield a pair of scythes that doesn't involve extra arms, but it's a bit wonky... get a pair of Sun Blades (DMG p. 228), preferably a version that doesn't require a good alignment. Add the Morphing property (+1 enhancement, MIC) to both. The Sun Blade counts as a bastard sword, which is a two-handed martial weapon, but it "feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword". Morph both Sun Blades into scythes, and you can still dual-wield them as if they were light weapons
    This here is too cheesy for me though, even if RAW legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Altair_the_Vexed View Post
    I can hardly think of a more outrageous and difficult weapon to dual wield! Scythes aren't even a sensible two-handed weapon...
    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    You obviously have a strong mental image of this, and I can't imagine what it looks like. Are you perhaps imagining a sickle instead of a scythe? scythe are so unwieldy, how are you mentally imagining this looking like?
    Well, to be entirely honest, I am thinking more of a war scythe than a farming scythe, because I have actually had to use a farming scythe on the occasion and am aware enough they are not weapons. I also have catfolks working mostly as farmers in the setting, so a scythe, even if a reforged one with the blade on a 90 degrees angle, fits. Thus, the image of a big humanoid tiger using two warscythes in the midst of a massive melee, slaying foe after foe as if dancing is a strong image for me.

    But that is boring, so let me tell a story instead.

    A long time ago, before my mother was born, my father was a farmboy. He lived there with his 15 siblings, being the youngest of his father's first wife, but 7th oldest overall. He loved the life in the farm, but it was a life of poverty, and seeing his father and step-mother struggling to make ends meet, he decided to leave it all behind, and try his luck at the city.

    He found luck there, and became an accountant. In due time, he married and had 2 children, a boy and a girl, named after the sun and the moon. During this time, he never forgot his life on the farm, and even studied the newest farming technologies and practices on a rural university.

    All that is good must come to an end, however, and he feel gravely ill, after 4 months of struggle and prayer, he barely survived, but seeing that he spent most of his life away from everything he loved, he decided to buy a small farm, to work on his spare time and spend time with his family.

    For 3 years, every weekend the whole family of 4 would travel tot he farm, and my father would take me with him to the field, so I would learn to love the land and the animals like he did.

    I never learned to love the fields. But to make the situation bearable, I imaginated myself as a sort of humanoid sabertooth tiger, reaping fields with my scythes and wreaking havoc in all.

    After 3 years however, my father fell ill, and this time, he didn't beat the disease. My sister inherited the farm and I never went there again, but the image of humanoid cats farming stayed with me, so much that even today, as an adult, I still see such felines whenever I see a farmer. As such, I honor my father by making every cat wear at least one scythe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    In mechanical terms the scythe has about three things going for it:

    (1) Two-handed, so x1.5 STR damage and 2x Power Attack investment
    (2) Higher crit multiplier: x4
    (3) Trip attack.

    If you're going TWF item (1) disappears, so immediately you can start looking at other weapons.

    You can get the x4 critical multiplier if your DM allows you access to Kaorti Resin weapons. It takes a Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, but this multiplier then applies to the piercing or slashing weapon you use, i.e. same damage types as the scythe gives you.

    Trip attacks: you can do that with a sickle. Does 1d6 damage, i.e. short sword damage, but you can make trip attacks with it, and because it's a one-handed weapon, it's far easier to dual-wield it.

    So yeah. Try a Kaorti Resin sickle. Once you spend the EWP on the Kaorti Resin Sickle, follow the TWF and trip-optimising lines.
    I don't remember reading about the resin, but it seems good, because the x4 crit modifier is one of the reasons I want scythe. That said, I don't want sickle, because I am not after triping, more as after using the weapons death is supposed to use to mow down whole armies, and the mental effect such has.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Just monkey grip large kamas instead.

    BTW, twf is super underwhelming and you pretty much can't change that without some dumb tricks. Though to make it possible to kill a thousand soldiers is easy. Actually, any decent melee bruiser can do that, because the soldiers can't hit them and they all die in one hit.
    Wait, this is a good idea. I could even make "Those are not scythes, they are just big kamas" something the villain hates so much anyone saying this is promptly killed for, leading to everyone calling them scythes, so when the PCs meet the villain and see they are just big kamas, hilarity ensues. Plus, I can take Bloodclaw Master for Superior TWF and ignore all TWF malus while keeping only 1 head. I think I will go with this.

    And I know TWF kinda sucks, but I am trying to make it usable here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Would Permanency + Enlarge Person work? I assume a Large Catfolk could dual-wield scythes designed for medium sized people.
    It would work, yes. It is not what I am looking for, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Great Cleave just allows you to make multiple Cleaves during your turn. It doesn't allow you to move between cleaves. Dervish Dance allows you to move between attacks, but there are easier ways to get the "Supreme Cleave" class ability, which is probably what you were thinking of as Great Cleave. Frenzied Berserker 2, for example. You may be limited by the distance you can move, but there are various ways to buff your speed.

    Paimon's Dance of Death (Tome of Magic) lets you move around and make one attack against every opponent, but it doesn't work with TWF or Cleave. Likewise, Whirlwind Attack has a similar problem. If throwing the scythes is acceptable, Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle) could use Blood Wind Ricochet or Blade Storm to clear out a good chunk of the battlefield.
    Supreme Cleave is actually not even that good, because you can only move 5ft once per turn. Better than great cleave at least, since you can move, even if just once. I can look into making it so you can move 5ft per attack, up to your speed, and work from there.

    Dervish thousand cuts gives great cleave (so cleave, but unlimited) during it plus 14 attacks (2 full attacks, 7 each once Greater TWF is taken), so you could take out 112 soldiers, assuming you always hit and can cleave for 7 additional targets each time, which while impressive, is not what I am looking for, since you can only do it once per battle at most. The whirwhind attack doesn't do what I want, and is bad too, so it is out. May take a look at ToM to see Paimon, but being unable to use iteratives is kinda meh, even if attacking everyone on your move speed range is pretty much what I want to do.

    Bloodstorm Blade is not what I am looking for either, because I want a melee warlord so to speak, even if the image of throwing scythes flying around and killing everyone around him is one I like.

    Maybe the tales of mowing down thousands are exagerations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    All 3.0 material that wasn't updated to 3.5 is still valid and legal in 3.5 games. It may require tweaking, so I usually refer to this as the "DMG page 4" or "minor adjustment" clause.
    Hm, that is true, page 4 of DMG does say so. I will likely still not use anything from 3.0 mostly due to lack of books, except for the BoVD, since I have that one still.




    So, all in all, I am looking at a Catfolk Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Bloodclaw Master that dual weilds scythes and has to make a DC 25 Will save to not frenzy when you point out they are just big kamas. Houseruled Supreme Cleave lets them move while cleaving and mow down anyone that stands against him, or is close while he is frenzying(?).

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    Default Re: [3.5] Help with making a catfolk that dual-wields scythes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninerga View Post
    I don't remember reading about the resin, but it seems good, because the x4 crit modifier is one of the reasons I want scythe. That said, I don't want sickle, because I am not after triping, more as after using the weapons death is supposed to use to mow down whole armies, and the mental effect such has.
    Kaorti Resin can be found here.

    And as said, dual-wielding kama is going to be a hell of a lot easier than dual-wielding scythes.

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