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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Human Cleric 6/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6/Ruathar 1/Fortune's Friend 5

    Feats: EnduranceB, Iron Will, Indomitable Soul, Divine Denial, Heroic Destiny, Lucky Start, Protected Destiny, Survivor's LuckB, Unbelievable Luck, Third Times the CharmB
    I've been thinking a bit more about this, and if you're willing to lose 2 or 3 caster levels, as it seems you are, I reckon you can get more mileage out of using your remaining 5 levels for Paladin 2/ any PrC that advances casting 3 instead of Fortune's Friend, because at high levels you can get a really big bonus out of Divine Grace by pumping your Charisma.

    Specifics: at high levels you have access to +6 enhancement items, up to +5 inherent bonuses if you can afford them, and the spells Greater Visage of the Deity (untyped +4 Cha, plus untyped +2 Dex +4 Con +4 Wis, all assuming you're of good alignment) and Miracle, which you can use to simulate an extended version of the Bard spell Snowsong, which gives a +4 morale bonus to Cha and lasts 10mins/ level, so extended lasts about 6 hours at high levels, or about 8 hours with a Bead of Karma.

    If you're going this route it may be worth taking the Spell domain, as Greater Anyspell allows you to access the Bard spell Inner Beauty, which gives a +4 Sacred bonus to both Dex and Cha, and also lasts 10mins/ level, hence about 3-4 hours at high levels, or 6-8 hours if your DM allows "any spell of up to 5th level" to include an Extended 4th-level spell.

    With all this, assuming you start with a Cha of about 13-14, you could boost it to around 24 (+7) for long periods prior to getting 9th-level spells at level 19, and around 32 (+11) after (more if you can afford a decent inherent bonus).

    If you can afford a Cha of 14+ at level 1, it might even be worth taking your Paladin levels early on, as you'd get a constant +2 bonus straight away, and as a 3rd-level Cleric can cast Eagle's Splendor this could easily be boosted to +4 when needed.

    The other advantage of these spells is that GVotD and Inner Beauty between them give you +6 Dex +4 Con +4 Wis, which gives you a further +3 Reflex +2 Fort +2 Will, in addition to what you get from Cha.

    With all of these in place, your direct save-boosting spells like Conviction and so on, and the Pride domain, you should be able to get firmly into "almost never fails a save except on two consecutive natural 1's" territory even before 9th-level spells become available.

    Oh, and GVotD can be persisted with DMM, as can Recitation (+3 Luck bonus to saves) and Elation (+2 Morale bonus to Dex, among other things), so it might even be worth swapping out some of your feats for Extend Spell/ Persistent Spell/ DMM Persist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Adventurer View Post
    Fractional saves don't reduce saves.

    People sometimes use a houserule which does.
    Fair enough, it was the only thing I could think of off the top of my head that might explain the difference. I know it's a common houserule if it's not RAW. Looking at it again, I think he just forgot to add on the Contemplative's save bonuses as they're down by exactly that amount.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Alternatively, and going back to the favored soul version, you can use Sacred Exorcist to get access to Turn Undead while keeping the all-good base saves.

    Human Favored Soul 6/Divine Oracle 2/Fortune's Friend 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Pious Templar 1/Contemplative 6

    Gets you total base save bonuses of: Fort +10 Ref +11 Will +18 (plus an extra +2 from Unbelievable Luck)

    Feats: Lucky StartH, Survivor's LuckB, Unbelievable LuckB, Weapon FocusB, True Believer1, Skill Focus3, Extend Spell6, Divine Fortune 9, Persist Spell12, Divine Metamagic15, ???18

    Ends up with a total of 6 luck rerolls, 2 domains, spontaneous casting and can easily fit pesist spell in for persisting all the save-boosting and immunity granting stuff.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by PanosIs View Post
    Alternatively, and going back to the favored soul version, you can use Sacred Exorcist to get access to Turn Undead while keeping the all-good base saves.

    Human Favored Soul 6/Divine Oracle 2/Fortune's Friend 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Pious Templar 1/Contemplative 6
    The more I've looked at this, the more I've realised that most of the really important stuff can be got by a Favored Soul one way or another, it might be worth going back to that after all.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    The more I've looked at this, the more I've realised that most of the really important stuff can be got by a Favored Soul one way or another, it might be worth going back to that after all.
    It took me a while to realize because I've never considered Sacred Exorcist on an actual divine caster :P It was always is some Silver Pyromancer build I was working at the time.

    The posted build is a bit too heavy on the dips for my own stylistic preferences, but yeah, Favored Soul can get most of the necessary stuff, and getting free WF to get into Pious Templar helps quite a bit as well.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    The main disadvantage of FS over Cleric that I can see is that a FS must worship a particular deity, so can't cherry-pick their domains. To my eyes, the Pride domain is the only really essential one though, so this isn't necessarily a dealbreaker.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    The main disadvantage of FS over Cleric that I can see is that a FS must worship a particular deity, so can't cherry-pick their domains. To my eyes, the Pride domain is the only really essential one though, so this isn't necessarily a dealbreaker.
    Bahamut grants Luck and Pride, IIRC.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    You can cherry pick a domain power via the planar touchstone (catalogues of enlightenment) feat. This will also give you a limited ability to cast spells from that domain. There's still a pretty good argument for the destiny domain, especially if you think you stand a realistic chance of ever persisting 9th level spells.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    BardGirl

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Did Unapproachable East get a 3.5 update errata?

    because https://dndtools.net/classes/master-of-the-yuirwood/ advances casting fully and gives you effectively divine grace at level 9 in it.




    With LA buyoff:

    Glouria (7RHD, casting as 7th level bard) Paladin(Harmonious Knight) 2/Monk 1/SublimeChord 1/Master of the Yuirwood 9.

    Lyric Spell + Persist Spell + Sirene's Grace = Cha to AC

    Ascetic Mage feat = Cha to AC.

    Glouria has Cha to AC and saves.

    Plus Divine Grace and Forest's Grace.

    CHA x3 to AC and Saves, 9th level spellcasting as a Sublime Chord.

    Have fun.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    I have a level 21 gestalt build with base saves of Fort 46, Ref 30, and Will 50. Of course, that IS both gestalt and fractional saves, so...
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by CactusAir View Post
    Glouria (7RHD, casting as 7th level bard) Paladin(Harmonious Knight) 2/Monk 1/SublimeChord 1/Master of the Yuirwood 9.
    Where's Glouria from? Google's not coming up with anything...

    EDIT: Ah, you mean Gloura don't you?

    http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/ex/20031003e
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-05-08 at 04:18 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Seeker of the Misty Isle (CD) might be useful if you have 2 or 3 levels left with nothing essential to fill them.

    Upsides:

    Good Fort and Reflex saves (almost certainly going to be weaker than Will: 2 levels of SotMI gets you +3 to both)

    Full casting for first 4 levels

    No feat requirements

    Gets you yet another domain, Travel; not much use from the optimising saves perspective, but generally considered to have some of the most useful spells of any domain

    Downsides:

    Requires you to be an elf or half-elf. May not be a problem per se, but probably not optimal

    Fluff requirements may be hard to fulfill, depending on how strict your DM is about such things
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-05-08 at 09:41 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    An alternative approach is to aim for Wisdom rather than Charisma then using Owl's Insight + caster level fu to jack up saving throws. Maybe:

    Paladin 2/Archivist 5/Divine Oracle 2/Hathran 5/?? 6 (Hathran unfortunately requires one of 3 deities so domains are limited.)

    Taking Serenity then using Circle Magic, Karma Bead, and Ankh of Ascension with Owl's Insight to get Wisdom 58=18 (base) +5 (inherent)+5(levels)+6(enhancement)+24 (Insight) generating +24 to all saves via Divine Grace.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Taking Serenity
    Serenity's from Dragon Magazine isn't it? Was it ever reprinted anywhere?

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    I can post my character plan, which quite different, but might help, or not. I played it until ECL 13 and it had Evasion+Mettle and +30/+15/+20 in its saves (and a reroll Vs Death/Mind effects).

    Half-Shadow Dragon Lesser Drow for the race, CE alignement for obvious reason
    Cleric 1 of Selvetarm
    Paladin of Slaughter 3
    Fighter 2
    Pious Templar 2
    Divine Crusader 2
    Contemplative +X

    With DMM persist on Divine Power (ECL 14) it is full bab martial. It reach level 9 spell (even if restricted and spontaneous casting) by ECL 18.

    Hope that helps. Even if it doesn't, it's quite a fun character that maybe someone might pick up ;)

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Serenity's from Dragon Magazine isn't it? Was it ever reprinted anywhere?
    Dragon Compendium.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    I've just realized Protected Destiny only works on a natual 1, so with the Pride domain, is redundant. That means I can ditch Heroic Destiny and Protected Destiny from my feats.

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Are there any ways to get improved mettle?

    I know there are a few races and monsters that gain evasion (like wizard familiars, who gain improved evasion), but are there any that gain mettle?

    [edit] As far as I know, the only way to get improved mettle is the oft-discussed tabard that was talked about earlier, and I just realized I'd already asked about races/monsters with mettle, and nobody has commented yet, so I imagine there is none.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2019-05-09 at 04:19 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    [edit] As far as I know, the only way to get improved mettle is the oft-discussed tabard that was talked about earlier, and I just realized I'd already asked about races/monsters with mettle, and nobody has commented yet, so I imagine there is none.
    AFAIK, that is the only official way.

    A DM could house rule that two instances of Mettle from different sources become Improved Mettle, but obviously not RAW.

    And no, no monsters that innately have Mettle that I know of...

    Saying that someone reading RAW differently than you is "home brewing or house ruling, but that's fine" doesn't make you right, it just makes you seem pompous.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Just a side thought ...

    Your really looking for 'how to fix LOW LEVEL* saves'. Spells, class features, feats, and items will be the overdrive at high levels.

    With that said: monk has all good saves (I don't recall it being mentioned in this thread).

    FS 2 /monk 2/ has +6, +6, +6.

    "Wild Monk" variant grants survival skill ... so.
    FS 4 /monk 2/ SotMI 1/ Exorc 1 / DO 2/
    +9 +9 +11 base saves @ 10th.

    You would of course need access to all the monk acfs to trade the useless class features, but you would get at least a few good things (spell reflection?).

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    AFAIK, that is the only official way.

    A DM could house rule that two instances of Mettle from different sources become Improved Mettle, but obviously not RAW.
    There is an epic prestige class from Epic Insights called Void Incarnate which gives improved mettle as a class feature. A bit beyond the scope of the original question, but it's the only way I've ever heard of to get it constantly.

    http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/ei/20030418a

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