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    Lightbulb Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    So, here's the thing:

    I've been tinkering with Antropomorphic Squids for quite a while now, because almost all of their abilities would be broken by themselves, and yet they get 3 or 4 of those in a package. All while being HD0 LA+1 if Necropolitan.

    Now, I was trying to optimize an archer, because almost every attempt to do so usually involves cheese. So... I want to make an efficient PO archer that can stand side to side with the usual Uberchargers, Goliath Dungeoncrashers, and Warblades. The first hurdle in doing it, as most who tried it know, is dealing decent damage.

    And I quite possibly have found a solution for it.

    You might be asking me right now: why would a squidman be the answer to the archer builds' usual impotence problem? Well, the answer is the eight arms.

    "Oh you silly beholder are you suggesting we make a quad-wielding flurry of misses piece of s-" Calm down, young padawan. Let me show you the way. This is what true beauty looks like:

    Dragonbone(Drc) Eight-arm(SS) Composite Footbow(RotW)
    Requires eight hands and two feet to wield properly.
    1d8 damage, x3 critical, 130' range increment, 4.5x strength bonus to damage.

    Yeah, that's right. Here we have a race that has LA +1 only, +4 Str and Dex, and can dump Con because it's undead.

    Now let's assume it's a point-buy, so you'll probably be able to get 18 Str and a ton of dex as well. So your strength bonus is +6, and that means you're dealing 1d8+27 per hit. At level 2.

    And you can easily notice the madness just keeps scaling upwards, ensuring our beautiful squidman is a mobile miniaturized railgun at all levels.

    But there's a problem: you can only use a footbow while airborne or prone, and using it prone shanks your attack bonus by a ton, not to mention all other problems related to being prone.

    I have two potential solutions:

    (A) Use Jet while aiming at an angle upwards that leaves you exactly 65 feet above ground, which would turn into 20 feet after the first round of falling(it's 45' first round then 90' each thereafter). Next round, start with shooting(or manyshot later), use a free action to 'change hands' with the bow (from feet to a couple hands), then use Airstep Sandals to take control of the fall and land safely. The problem with this would obviously be the full-round action, which means this combo can only be decently used in the first round of combat. And you better hope it's not a surprise round, otherwise you'll fall and take enough D6s of damage to kill your puny 12hp self.
    (B) Move with Airstep Sandals upwards(only 5' since no essentia at lvl1) then shoot, 'change hands' and use Tumble to go down. The problem with this, yet again, is the action cost, and since we need tumble, we'd have to take Feat Rogue as the first level, which means 1 less Attack Bonus at level 1. Not a big problem, of course, considering the squidman's Dex bonus is around +4~+5 at level 1, depending on the point buy.

    Both of those have huge action costs, and both leave us with no mobility. Also, Airstep Sandals would be freaking useless after a couple levels, so it'd be first in line to the retraining booth. I'd rather not use flaws, because it's usually frowned upon. The character pretty much has to be either a Fighter or a Feat Rogue because of the Exotic Weapon Profficiency, and it likely needs another feat, which, in this case, I assumed would be Shape Soulmeld(Airstep Sandals).

    I also know not having Precise Shot means the character is pretty bad at actually helping a melee character, but I'll just assume the long-range deletion ability will make up for it by neutralizing the largest threat before the tank engages, and then just pepper targets running for the mages afterwards.

    Anyway, I want to know if you guys can come with a better solution that works at ECL 2, since I'd rather have this character work right from the start.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-05-06 at 06:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Hmmm.

    Well, Prone Attack (Complete Warrior) is a thing.

    Boots of Levitation? Or maybe updraft would count as airborn. I think a Drogue Chute can give you a glide speed, but folding it is a PITA. You can retold it with a swift ready spell, but it's not on a lot of spell lists.

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Hmmm.

    Well, Prone Attack (Complete Warrior) is a thing.

    Boots of Levitation? Or maybe updraft would count as airborn. I think a Drogue Chute can give you a glide speed, but folding it is a PITA. You can retold it with a swift ready spell, but it's not on a lot of spell lists.
    Where's the chute? Never thought 3.5 had rules for parachutes, what with feather fall being a first level spell and all that.

    Speaking of which, it'd be possible to have a Ring of Feather Fall by ECL 3(2k GP and the rest for the bow), though Boots of Levitation would be a bit harder.

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    I think you've ignored the cost of the Ritual of Crucimigration: it costs 3000 gp, and a 2nd-level character can't survive it because the XP loss is too great.
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    I think you've ignored the cost of the Ritual of Crucimigration: it costs 3000 gp, and a 2nd-level character can't survive it because the XP loss is too great.
    Well, crap.

    I guess that's that. Gotta live with 2HD.

    Or maybe get the Squid's Cleric uncle to kill him then resurrect him. Always works.

    Edit:


    Actually, since the character would be a 3rd-level creature, he would have 2700 gp and 3000 xp, so midway through 3rd level, he could attempt circumigration, and then drop down to 2nd level with 2000 xp(half-way to 3rd), and then lose 1000 to drop to the exact minimum xp for a 2nd level. Then immediately take Feat Rogue and get the Footbow proficiency.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-05-06 at 05:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Where's the chute? Never thought 3.5 had rules for parachutes, what with feather fall being a first level spell and all that.
    I mis-remembered the name: Drogue Wing (300 GP, Races of Faerun p. 159). You need to be at least 40' up and have a 25' radius of clear space around you to deploy the drogue wing. This piece of equipment was sort of the centerpiece to the Great Rift Skyguard round of Iron Chef LXXVII. (My first gold medal was Vultag Thunderkeg.)

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Speaking of which, it'd be possible to have a Ring of Feather Fall by ECL 3(2k GP and the rest for the bow), though Boots of Levitation would be a bit harder.
    Shape Soulmeld: Phoenix Cloak will give you always-on feather fall. Bind it to your shoulders for a fly speed of 10' (+10' per essentia).

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Shape Soulmeld: Phoenix Cloak will give you always-on feather fall. Bind it to your shoulders for a fly speed of 10' (+10' per essentia).
    I think that should be Pegasus cloak.
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    An Anthropomorphic Squid has only 2 hands, and I don't know any general rule saying that tentacles can be used for weapon manipulation.
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    An Anthropomorphic Squid has only 2 hands, and I don't know any general rule saying that tentacles can be used for weapon manipulation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Species
    An anthropomorphic animal has the natural
    attacks of the base creature, but it can also use weapons if it
    did not have hands already.
    I'm pretty sure that means all their tentacles can use weapons; I don't see any text about getting hands at all.

    Also, don't forget to add the Amphibious Creature template from Stormwrack if you're not going Necropolitan immediately, unless you plan on carrying around a bucket of water to regularly dunk your head into.
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    You could ad the +0 Unseelie Fey template to pick up wings among other things

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Their is a non magical item in one of the faerun books that will reduce fall damage.
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I mis-remembered the name: Drogue Wing (300 GP, Races of Faerun p. 159). You need to be at least 40' up and have a 25' radius of clear space around you to deploy the drogue wing. This piece of equipment was sort of the centerpiece to the Great Rift Skyguard round of Iron Chef LXXVII. (My first gold medal was Vultag Thunderkeg.)

    Shape Soulmeld: Phoenix Cloak will give you always-on feather fall. Bind it to your shoulders for a fly speed of 10' (+10' per essentia).
    Hoh, I'll look into those. If I can get a slow enough Feather Fall, I can just Jet up once and stay up there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    An Anthropomorphic Squid has only 2 hands, and I don't know any general rule saying that tentacles can be used for weapon manipulation.
    Nope. There's a specific line for determining the number of hands, and it's all body limbs - 2. They specifically gave an octopus as an example, having 6 tentacles and 2 legs. I'm AFB right now, but I can quote it later today if you want.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-05-07 at 06:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I'm pretty sure that means all their tentacles can use weapons; I don't see any text about getting hands at all.
    See here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthropomorphic Animals, Size and Type
    All anthropomorphic animals have humanoid arms and hands.
    Reading through (it's been awhile):
    1. The text of "use weapons" does not specify the number of hands but a humanoid has just two, so something with "humanoid arms and hands" has just two by default.
    2. A squid normally has two natural attacks "arms" and "bite". Since the word 'also' is used, it can presumably use two hands with weapons as well as "arms", and "bite" as an attack routine with "arms" and "bite" having a -5 penalty to hit if weapons are used. It's slightly unclear whether it keeps the "arms" attack since two of the tentacles become feet, but given that 8 tentacles are enough for an "arms" attack as evidenced by the octopus, I'd allow it as a DM.
    3. A giant squid can make weapon attacks, 8 tentacle attacks (since two tentacles are transformed into feet), and a bite attack.

    You can turn tentacles into hands via the "Gloves of Man" (SS page 57, 42K) but that's a high level tactic given the cost.

    You might also be able to use a Chuul Lasher, which is designed for tentacles (SS page 45) although whip damage is underwhelming.
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Reading through (it's been awhile):
    1. The text of "use weapons" does not specify the number of hands but a humanoid has just two, so something with "humanoid arms and hands" has just two by default.
    2. A squid normally has two natural attacks "arms" and "bite".
    [...]
    It has humanoid arms and feet and an "arms" attack constituted by eight "arms", which, by RAW, should be all humanoid, regardless of number, because the number of limbs is not specified.

    To be fair, this is a highly DM-subjective matter, but unless the DM is just trying to shank martial, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to allow it, since a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer can do the same with the bonus arms spells and Str buffs. Just not at level one.

    And a humanoid creature with two hands, two feet and four tentacles feels more like an Aberration than a Monstrous Humanoid to me, not a natural-occurring Squidman race. But that's just me.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2019-05-07 at 07:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    It has humanoid arms and feet and an "arms" attack constituted by eight "arms", which, by RAW, should be all humanoid, regardless of number, because the number of limbs is not specified.
    I disagree---the natural attacks are also available, and hence they are made with separate limbs from those given by the Anthropomorphic Template.

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    ...unless the DM is just trying to shank martial, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to allow it...
    I disagree that this is "shanking". Having 2 arms + 2 natural attacks is actually quite good. If you choose anthropomorphic giant squid, having 2 arms + 9 natural attacks is clearly exceptional.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    And a humanoid creature with two hands, two feet and four tentacles feels more like an Aberration than a Monstrous Humanoid to me, not a natural-occurring Squidman race. But that's just me.
    Presumably, Illithids look rather different since the "legs" on an anthropomorphic squid start where the other tentacles are, there are 8 tentacles capable of generating a joint natural attack rather than 4 separate attacks, and the body of the squid has a quite different shape.

    But, anyways, the RAW here is crystal clear---it's a Monstrous Humanoid.
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    plop
    It really feels like you're just trying to deny it for the sake of denying.

    As I said, the matter is clearly very DM-subjective, and not that disruptive in higher levels, since it can be mimicked by spells at around levels 6-8. It's really only strong at low levels.

    And a humanoid guy with foursix dangling tentacles is just ****ing weird.

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    My own attempt to solve archer damage problem http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...9&postcount=65
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    And a humanoid guy with foursix dangling tentacles is just ****ing weird.
    Yeah, agreed.

    Except of course that it's 8 tentacles
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Yeah, agreed.

    Except of course that it's 8 tentacles
    I think you meant arms.

    Humanoid ones

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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    You could also give the bow the Opposable (+1) property.
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    You could also give the bow the Opposable (+1) property.
    I have somehow managed to never notice this property before. I think maybe the LA Reassignment group needs to be informed.
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    Default Re: Help Needed: Squidman Archer

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    You could also give the bow the Opposable (+1) property.
    Damn this is pretty good.

    I'm actually considering re-building my 16-tentacle Squidman as an archer now.

    Just need to get four feet somehow...

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