Need something cheap to protect me at night

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unless you're a spellcaster, just don't sleep: resting simply requires you to refrain from strenous activities, not to actually sleep. There are no rules about the effect of sleep deprivation (unless your campaign host a specific elder evil, at least) and indulging in light activities doesn't require you to close your eyes, so don't.

Not even spellcasters need actual sleep. Just 8 hours of restful calm.

[Gallowglass]

Go with the guard dog. If the GM still messes with you, it was meant to happen and none of your other precautions would have mattered, saving you money.

^This. ham on... ham on... ham on whole wheat... all right!

[jintoya]

Have you considered just adopting the Pathfinder skill rules?

I've been considering getting all the Pathfinder books.... Seeing as I have all but a few of the 3.5 books, I think all I'm missing now is the desert one (sandstorm?) And one of the psionics books... But I just adopt anything that enhances fun, so if I like Pathfinder's skill system more, I'll switch.

[Segev]

I've been considering getting all the Pathfinder books.... Seeing as I have all but a few of the 3.5 books, I think all I'm missing now is the desert one (sandstorm?) And one of the psionics books... But I just adopt anything that enhances fun, so if I like Pathfinder's skill system more, I'll switch.

Pathfinder's skill system makes your maximum rank in a skill cap at your character level, and grants you a +3 misc. bonus to any class skill in which you've put at least one rank. All skills are 1 sp/rank, no matter if they're class or cross-class. If a skill is a class skill for any class you have, you get the +3 bonus; it does not stack for multiple classes sharing a class skill.

They also have the favored class rules be that you pick any class you want as your favored class. By default, when you take a level in your favored class, you choose either +1 skill point or +1 hp. Certain psionic races can also choose +1 pp when their favored class is psionic. Various classes and races have further special options if the character is playing that race and chose that class as his favored class, though this is moving beyond the skill system.

[jintoya]

Pathfinder's skill system makes your maximum rank in a skill cap at your character level, and grants you a +3 misc. bonus to any class skill in which you've put at least one rank. All skills are 1 sp/rank, no matter if they're class or cross-class. If a skill is a class skill for any class you have, you get the +3 bonus; it does not stack for multiple classes sharing a class skill.

They also have the favored class rules be that you pick any class you want as your favored class. By default, when you take a level in your favored class, you choose either +1 skill point or +1 hp. Certain psionic races can also choose +1 pp when their favored class is psionic. Various classes and races have further special options if the character is playing that race and chose that class as his favored class, though this is moving beyond the skill system.

Yea, I like that better, I think I'll take my next paycheck and start looking at Pathfinder

[Psyren]

Yea, I like that better, I think I'll take my next paycheck and start looking at Pathfinder

I mean, if you're planning to buy the books fine, but all the Pathfinder rules are available online for free.

https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=All&Category=None

[StreamOfTheSky]

I always liked the idea of strewing broken glass around the sleeping area, so anything approaching by ground makes a bunch of noise, and possibly injures itself.

Yea, I like that better, I think I'll take my next paycheck and start looking at Pathfinder

PF's changes to class skill rules hurts Rogues and others that are meant to be the skilled types very badly, and gives them nothing in return. Really not a fan at all, 3.5's skill system is much better. Of course, I do buff Fighters to 4+Int skill points and give them Spot/Listen, among other class skills. The noncasters definitely needed buffs in 3.5, but the skill system itself was solid. Destroying it all just because a class didn't get some skills it should have is an overreaction...

But you don't need to spend anything to look at PF. The core rules, and many of the splat books are available for free to view online, because they have their own version of 3E's Open Gaming License.

[jintoya]

I always liked the idea of strewing broken glass around the sleeping area, so anything approaching by ground makes a bunch of noise, and possibly injures itself.



PF's changes to class skill rules hurts Rogues and others that are meant to be the skilled types very badly, and gives them nothing in return. Really not a fan at all, 3.5's skill system is much better. Of course, I do buff Fighters to 4+Int skill points and give them Spot/Listen, among other class skills. The noncasters definitely needed buffs in 3.5, but the skill system itself was solid. Destroying it all just because a class didn't get some skills it should have is an overreaction...

But you don't need to spend anything to look at PF. The core rules, and many of the splat books are available for free to view online, because they have their own version of 3E's Open Gaming License.

True, but right now WotC is having lots of 3.5 stuff taken down and making the info less accessable, sure there are always going to be places to get it, but I prefer having them in print

Not to mention, I live in the Pacific Northwest, so seasonal storms cause power outages, and I run games in the atmosphere it provides, but in that situation... Can't look it up on the computer.

Edit: and I have a safety net of house rules that would save the rogue, and keep skilled classes lush in sp.
(It's easy, just change the ability they draw from a tad)

[StreamOfTheSky]

True, but right now WotC is having lots of 3.5 stuff taken down and making the info less accessable, sure there are always going to be places to get it, but I prefer having them in print

Not to mention, I live in the Pacific Northwest, so seasonal storms cause power outages, and I run games in the atmosphere it provides, but in that situation... Can't look it up on the computer.

Edit: and I have a safety net of house rules that would save the rogue, and keep skilled classes lush in sp.
(It's easy, just change the ability they draw from a tad)

Wait, WotC is taking down 3E material? Please elaborate...

And I'm not sure what you mean by these house rules, but if it's just giving them more skill points, that's not too helpful. Skills, like most things, have tiers of power/use, especially in PF where they combined skills together, and added functions to skills that no one thought were weak to begin with. So when anybody can max out Perception (Spot, Listen, and Search...what was Paizo thinking?!), Diplomacy (now w/ Gather Info thrown in), UMD, and the other top tier skills and as a rogue your only remaining edge is that +3 class bonus (maybe...pretty easy to add class skills via traits, too)...
It doesn't really matter that you have skill points left over for Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand.

[jintoya]

Wait, WotC is taking down 3E material? Please elaborate...

And I'm not sure what you mean by these house rules, but if it's just giving them more skill points, that's not too helpful. Skills, like most things, have tiers of power/use, especially in PF where they combined skills together, and added functions to skills that no one thought were weak to begin with. So when anybody can max out Perception (Spot, Listen, and Search...what was Paizo thinking?!), Diplomacy (now w/ Gather Info thrown in), UMD, and the other top tier skills and as a rogue your only remaining edge is that +3 class bonus (maybe...pretty easy to add class skills via traits, too)...
It doesn't really matter that you have skill points left over for Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand.

I've got a big ol list of additional functions and extra skills that make many skills that were largely overlooked before functional again, I got tired of rogues who never take any skills like gather information, so I added extra uses to them.
Also made knowledge More useful by making a successful knowledge on new monsters give benefits to killing them...I didn't go into it because its a long list of things, but I give a few extra skill points by shifting the ability to entice players to try new skills and find what they can be used for.

As for WotC quietly having official content taken down, I didn't notice for a while, but it looks like they are stopping a bunch of srd stuff from being hosted, so far they haven't hit any of the big ones, but in a few discord conversations I had, other people had begun noticing the trend also.
It started around the time 4e came out, it slowed down after 5e, I think it was so people would move from 3.x to 4th. I haven't noticed to much of it recently, but there are still a butt-load of 404 pages left on SRD sites.

[Thurbane]

Unless you're a spellcaster, just don't sleep: resting simply requires you to refrain from strenous activities, not to actually sleep. There are no rules about the effect of sleep deprivation (unless your campaign host a specific elder evil, at least) and indulging in light activities doesn't require you to close your eyes, so don't.

It's often suggested that these are the general rules of going without sleep:

A living creature can go without sleep for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum one). Thereafter it is fatigued, remaining in this state for a number of days equal to its Constitution modifier (again, minimum one); if it would become fatigued during that time, it is exhausted instead. Each day after that period, the creature takes 1 point of Wisdom damage. If the total Wisdom damage exceeds its Hit Dice, the creature is affected as if by an insanity spell. Once its Wisdom score drops to 0, the creature becomes unconscious but cannot recover lost Wisdom naturally.

...I don't think most DMs would be OK with a character simply not sleeping because there aren't rules in core to cover it.

[Mr Adventurer]

That's a weird rule; average Commoners become insane after four days and permanently unconscious (sans magical help) after ten or eleven days. (One day without sleep, one day fatigued, two days accruing Wisdom damage.) That doesn't really feel like it models sleep deprivation to me.

[Thurbane]

That's a weird rule; average Commoners become insane after four days and permanently unconscious (sans magical help) after ten or eleven days. (One day without sleep, one day fatigued, two days accruing Wisdom damage.) That doesn't really feel like it models sleep deprivation to me.

I tend to agree, but it's about the only official word on the subject of sleep deprivation.

I've seen a wide array of house rules that handle it differently.

[Falontani]

That's a weird rule; average Commoners become insane after four days and permanently unconscious (sans magical help) after ten or eleven days. (One day without sleep, one day fatigued, two days accruing Wisdom damage.) That doesn't really feel like it models sleep deprivation to me.

It all depends on your world, but the average commoner shouldn't be level 1. Read the commoner mudfarmer thread that was up a few weeks ago for more information

[Segev]

How does PF’s skill system hurt rogues?

Also, I recommend d20pfsrd.com as a resource if you want to examine PF with your spending money. You will likely want some books eventually if you like the system, but no need to spend money you can’t afford on it before you get an idea.

[Mr Adventurer]

It all depends on your world, but the average commoner shouldn't be level 1. Read the commoner mudfarmer thread that was up a few weeks ago for more information

I did read it. The DMG already has level breakdowns for classed characters. If "average" isn't the right term, then "majority" or "plurality" or whatever.

[Psyren]

How does PF’s skill system hurt rogues?

I would strongly advise you not to take the bait there.

It's often suggested that these are the general rules of going without sleep:

I like the general idea that something keeping you from going to sleep will eventually drive you insane, but I'm not sure that particular implementation really works. I especially dislike the fact that when you do actually fall unconscious (i.e. the thing that your body was trying to do) that you are exempt from healing naturally.

[Jay R]

Our standard solution is a party that sets a watch. We each guard the camp for two hours.

[StreamOfTheSky]

How does PF’s skill system hurt rogues?

In 3E, a Rogue can be the best in the party at numerous skills and other non-skilled classes simply cannot match the skilled classes, even when they have the advantage of a much higher ability score (like a Sorc using Bluff untrained), unless the latter invest extra resources towards that skill (such as multiclassing, or a feat to make it a class skill).

In PF, the only advantage of a class skill is a measly +3 bonus. They also consolidated skills together, including several that were already strong. The end result is that a Rogue has trouble standing out in any skills, the best he can hope for is to be the 2nd best in the party at a given important skill (eclipsed by the more focused character in any skills using the more focused character's prime ability score), unless the party members consciously choose to try and not overshadow him.
Even trapfinding, one of the most "Rogue things" there is, the Rogue is no better than other party members now. Search is now part of Perception, the best skill in the game, and unlike some skills, one that everyone needs because it can't be "done for you." To make matters worse, not only does everyone have maxed Perception, it's Wis-based, not Int-based. Wis is dump stat for the MAD Rogue. So even w/ the +1/2 level class bonus to find traps, they're on par w/ a Druid or Cleric at best (at worst...the cleric or druid has something like Feather domain, outright giving the same +1/2 level bonus...to ALL perception checks). Plus, now everyone can find traps of any DC, and the casters have infinite use detect magic, so they're better at finding magical traps than the rogue since they ignore those high DCs.

[Segev]

In 3E, a Rogue can be the best in the party at numerous skills and other non-skilled classes simply cannot match the skilled classes, even when they have the advantage of a much higher ability score (like a Sorc using Bluff untrained), unless the latter invest extra resources towards that skill (such as multiclassing, or a feat to make it a class skill).

In PF, the only advantage of a class skill is a measly +3 bonus. They also consolidated skills together, including several that were already strong. The end result is that a Rogue has trouble standing out in any skills, the best he can hope for is to be the 2nd best in the party at a given important skill (eclipsed by the more focused character in any skills using the more focused character's prime ability score), unless the party members consciously choose to try and not overshadow him.
Even trapfinding, one of the most "Rogue things" there is, the Rogue is no better than other party members now. Search is now part of Perception, the best skill in the game, and unlike some skills, one that everyone needs because it can't be "done for you." To make matters worse, not only does everyone have maxed Perception, it's Wis-based, not Int-based. Wis is dump stat for the MAD Rogue. So even w/ the +1/2 level class bonus to find traps, they're on par w/ a Druid or Cleric at best (at worst...the cleric or druid has something like Feather domain, outright giving the same +1/2 level bonus...to ALL perception checks). Plus, now everyone can find traps of any DC, and the casters have infinite use detect magic, so they're better at finding magical traps than the rogue since they ignore those high DCs.

Thank you for the explanation. I disagree strongly on a number of points, but this isn't the thread for that discussion, and I do appreciate at least knowing where you're coming from.

[jintoya]

I just thought, why not litter camp areas with good ol dry twigs?
In the dark that's nearly impossible to avoid, anyone sneaking up would have to move all the twigs so they don't sound like a bubble wrap monster on approach.