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    Default Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    I'll soon start playing with a Half-Elf Harrier Battlemind strong in Constitution and Charisma. I have a pretty well-rounded idea of the character except for what to choose as his Dilettante power. There are just too many options and I know too little about all the powers out there. DM allowed all classes and supplements, even Dragon Magazine, so there are even more options to choose from.

    That was my most urgent question :) Another thing I don't get is why there are next to no minor actions for battleminds (the only one I think my character will be getting is Battlemind's Demand)? I get that the battlemind power system is based on power points, but still, next to no minor actions - am I missing something? Is the idea that a battlemind frequently trades his minor action for another move action?

    Another question: why is Wisdom considered a key attribute for battleminds?
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    My top suggestion for a dilettante in that case is eldritch strike, it covers one of the biggest gaps in the battlemind, which is the lack of a good melee basic attack. You might also look to patch up some other hole in your attack types with something like a ranged or close blast attack. There are plenty of those in classes like warlock or sorcerer. You might also look to pick up a leadery sort of attack, direct the strike from Warlord is almost never a bad choice, for example. I could probably find more specific suggestions if you gave an idea of what sort of thing you'd want out of the attack.

    Many classes don't get a ton of minor action attacks, that's mostly the territory of strikers. Leaders get minor action heals, but only a couple of times a combat. Defenders and controllers often get less than the others (though there are still definitely options). Most of your minor actions probably will be battlemind's demand at first, what good is a defender that doesn't mark? But as you level up, there are a lot of minor action utilities for battleminds.

    As a side note, you can't trade a minor action for a move. The hierarchy is standard > move > minor. You can trade down, but not up.

    Wisdom is a secondary ability for some battleminds. If you look closely into their abilities, their attacks are always based on Con, but many have riders based on either wisdom or charisma. There are a few more for charisma, I believe, but there's options either way. I suggest looking through the powers you like and picking either cha or wis to focus on as a secondary ability based on the ones you like the best. You might want a modest score in the other, but mostly it doesn't pay to try to raise them both. You want to do that with Con and whatever single secondary stat you like best.

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    I mostly agree with dariathalon.

    Eldritch Strike is a good choice, but it's really the choice when you hit level 11 and can make it a true At Will. Before then, it's good, but you're going to need Melee Training (or, if you're a weird CON|INT build, MC Swordmage and take Intelligent Blademaster), because without a good MBA, your enemies can just walk away from you with no real threat of an OA.

    As for Minors- you're going to mark fairly often, and if you're not, you'll have minor action Utilities within a few levels.

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    I can third the recommendation for Eldritch Strike.

    Minor actions can come from utilities, hybrids, and items. My Battlemind|Artificer hybrid has minor actions to...
    Promise of Storm (Genasi racial power)
    Wolf Shape (werewolf theme)
    Icebound Sigil (Artificer Daily)
    Healing Infusion (Artificer encounter heal)
    Tempest Whetstone (emergency minion clearing tool)
    Frozen Whetstone ("i have a free minor and want a little more damage")
    Blood Apricot ("I have 13 surges and no way to spend them on my own")
    Syllable of Grace ("Gotta go fast")
    Elven Battle Armor (randomly rolled loot, also gotta go fast)
    Incisive Dagger (teleport)
    Staff of Resilience (gotta tank up)

    Oh, and technically Battlemind's Demand, but I don't have Mind Spike because I have Lightning Rush, so that doesn't really get used.

    The first two are race/theme features, the third and fourth are from my hybrid, and after that it's all various minor action items.
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    I agree with everyone that Eldritch Strike should absolutely be the choice from level 11 onward when you can get Versatile Master (retrain Melee Training?). That leaves the question of what it should be from levels 1-9/10 (if not Eldritch Strike, it's likely best to retrain to Eldritch Strike at level 10 in preparation for retraining to Versatile Master at level 11).

    Since you say you're "strong in Constitution and Charisma", I think you're best off picking up one of the Ardent's or Paladin's At-Will attacks, and there are good cases to be made for Demoralizing Strike, Energizing Strike, Focusing Strike, Impetuous Ruin, and Wave of Fatigue from Ardent, or Enfeebling Strike or Ardent Strike from Paladin. Of note, I'm specifically avoiding Implement attacks because I don't think it's worthwhile for you to invest in an implement alongside your weapon. If you're wondering why I don't mention any Bard options, it's because Guiding Strike is strictly worse than Demoralizing Strike and War Song Strike is mostly worse than Energizing Strike.

    I think the most powerful option in a vacuum is Demoralizing Strike. The best defender support options are Ardent Strike or Impetuous Ruin. I would only pick one of the others if I were looking to fill a gap in the party.

    If you are willing to support an implement, I think the best option is Dark Beckoning, with consideration also given to Cutting Words, Burning Spray, Blazing Starfall, and Echoing Dirge.

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iksilak View Post
    why is Wisdom considered a key attribute for battleminds?
    Every other class has a choice of secondary stat, so battlemind must as well. I think Wisdom was chosen because it too increases Will, and a class described as psionic should have good Will. *shrug*

    The fluff I've seen for battleminds emphasizes Charisma more than it does Constitution, honestly, and much more than it emphasizes Wisdom. Since the battlemind bears a fair bit of resemblance to the 3.X warblade, I feel Int would've been a better choice than Wis. That would also allow a light-armor variant for the class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iksilak View Post
    Another thing I don't get is why there are next to no minor actions for battleminds ...
    They have about the usual percentage of minor-action utilities. It's mostly strikers and leaders who have minor-action options right from level 1.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Every other class has a choice of secondary stat, so battlemind must as well. I think Wisdom was chosen because it too increases Will, and a class described as psionic should have good Will. *shrug*
    Fluff-wise, I think it's because there's supposed to be a stoicism intended by the Resilient Battlemind, since that build is all about transforming your body via polymorph effects to become super durable (lots of damage reduction). WIS represents self-knowledge and ability to impress your will upon your own body rather than the ability to impress your will upon the world. I've always felt that WIS makes sense from that perspective.

    Battlemind was always a really weirdly fluffed class, though. It never really felt particularly consistent, turning into every possible variation of "fighter with psionics". It still seems weird to me that it uses CON as an attack stat rather than a mental one.
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Since the battlemind bears a fair bit of resemblance to the 3.X warblade, I feel Int would've been a better choice than Wis. That would also allow a light-armor variant for the class.
    Honestly, Int and Dex battleminds work just as well as Wis and Cha. Sure, they dont get as much free stuff from the class features, but there's plenty of powers that are riderless or where the important augment doesn't have a stat dependency (Lodestone Lure, Lightning Rush, Brutal Barrage). It makes them very easy to hybrid (I've seen Warlock, Rogue, Swordmage, Artificer, and have even poked at Wizard). It helps that Con/Int and Con/Dex have great racial support (Genasi and Revenant respectively)
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Hmm, I was planning on Melee Training (Constitution) to get a good melee basic attack, as my constitution starts at 16. Would Eldritch Strike still be a good choice then?
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iksilak View Post
    Hmm, I was planning on Melee Training (Constitution) to get a good melee basic attack, as my constitution starts at 16. Would Eldritch Strike still be a good choice then?
    One of the really good aspects of Eldritch Strike is that you get a slide, and having a slide means Flail Expertise prones. Alhulak is a +3 proficiency, 1d8 weapon. So you get an OA and hit, your target stops moving and is at a -2 to hit things at best, because they've already spent at least a move action.

    There are ways to duplicate that, say with a Lightning Weapon and Mark of Storm or MC'ing a Martial Class and picking up Lashing Flail in Paragon or MC'ing for Ki Focuses and picking up an Abduction Ki Focus. But that's kind of weighing what's the benefits in comparison.

    Also, why is your Constitution starting at 16 for Melee Training. It is kind of difficult to avoid at least one 18, even if you're picking a non-Con-based race...

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iksilak View Post
    Hmm, I was planning on Melee Training (Constitution) to get a good melee basic attack, as my constitution starts at 16. Would Eldritch Strike still be a good choice then?
    I'd say it depends on your teammates and your DM. If the DM's monsters don't provoke by moving or making ranged attacks, and if you're not teamed up with someone who grants MBAs, then I'd suggest eldritch strike without Melee Training. If you'll be throwing MBAs right and left, then eldritch strike won't help much unless you've specificially built for it. Some, but not much -- maybe not as much as a completely different ability would. Can you tell us what your allies are like?

    I'll echo MwaO in saying that your Constitution looks kinda low for a half-elf battlemind. I'm guessing you've spread your stat points more evenly? That may represent your character concept better and feel more satisfying outside combat, but that battlemind won't seem very good at battle. I do recommend starting with an 18 (after racial mods) in your main attack stat. It'll really pay off in combat effectiveness.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Right, it's an immersion-heavy group/DM and most of the other characters aren't optimized builds either, with skills based on dice throws, so it should even out. At least I hope so.

    I don't suppose I will use MBAs that much. We got some damage-heavy striker, a healer, another tank (built like a brick wall) and a ranger, so I think I will try to be a defender that specializes in getting enemies off the others' back, with powers like Twisted Eye and Bull's Strength. On lvl 3 I want to get Lodestone Lure, on 5, Nightmare Vortex. So lots of Telekinesis and sliding enemies around, paralyzing them and knocking them prone, that kind of stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by dariathalon View Post
    As a side note, you can't trade a minor action for a move. The hierarchy is standard > move > minor. You can trade down, but not up.
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    Last edited by Iksilak; 2019-05-11 at 02:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Then I'd recommend echoing dirge bardwarlock power (Heroes of Shadow p.76). It uses Charisma, targeting two creatures that can be pretty far from each other, without provoking attacks, for damage and push2. Pretty handy if you want to peel enemies off your allies.
    Last edited by Dimers; 2019-05-11 at 02:17 PM.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    Then I'd recommend echoing dirge bardwarlock power (Heroes of Shadow p.76). It uses Charisma, targeting two creatures that can be pretty far from each other, without provoking attacks, for damage and push2. Pretty handy if you want to peel enemies off your allies.
    Looks really good :) Can't find it in Character Builder (offline version)*, but got the stats anyway & if I choose it, I can just note it down by hand. Hmm, implement-based. Never played a magic user in 4e - does it mean I need an implement to use the power?

    *EDIT: Just updated CB with CBLoader but still no Echoing Dirge, oh well.

    EDIT EDIT: Implements were optional IIRC. So basically I shouldn't need one for Echoing Dirge. Say I as a battlemind would get my hands on an implement, could I still use it and improve Echoing Dirge with it, or are implements class-specific? (Don't think I will, just theorizing here.)
    Last edited by Iksilak; 2019-05-11 at 05:48 PM.
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    You don't need an implement, no. If you had a magical implement AND training in that kind of implement (rod, wand, ki focus, orb, whatever), then your attack and damage rolls would be better for echoing dirge. Per the most recent rules, it doesn't matter which implement as long as you're trained.

    Battleminds, of course, don't start with implement training. The simplest way to get it is either by multiclassing into a class that does. Ideally, in this situation, you'd pick a class that gets hands-free implements (ki focus, holy symbol) or weapons-as-implements, so both your hands can hold instruments of war. Second simplest is by taking of the few Themes that grants implement training.
    Avatar by Meltheim: Eveve, dwarven battlemind, 4e Dark Sun

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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Thank you, Dimers! :)
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iksilak View Post
    Hmm, I was planning on Melee Training (Constitution) to get a good melee basic attack, as my constitution starts at 16. Would Eldritch Strike still be a good choice then?
    Yes. In addition to giving a slide and full damage on an attack you can exchange melee training for versatile master at level 11 and never look back.
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    I just discovered the Psion 1st Level abilities They might be a good choice too. Something like Force Punch or Memory Hole. Unfortunate that psi-based classes have so few Focus Points while fights in 4e tend to take so many rounds :)
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iksilak View Post
    I just discovered the Psion 1st Level abilities They might be a good choice too. Something like Force Punch or Memory Hole. Unfortunate that psi-based classes have so few Focus Points while fights in 4e tend to take so many rounds :)
    They actually have enough to use full augments like any other class uses encounter powers. Which means if you get VERY efficient if you get something like Brutal Barrage that can be spammed at augment 1.

    Also, a Dilettanted augmentable power loses the augmentable keyword.
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    Default Re: Which Dilettante power for a battlemind?

    Eldritch Blast is my vote. Itís such a nice ranged option when you suck with a bow.... because your stats just do NOT line up for ranged weapons. Plus, itís not necessary to make it at will, since itís more of a side option for when you canít move+charge... or more accurately (in every sense), when you move and donít get to trigger Lightning Rush to get stuck in.. I find I enjoy Dilettante the most when I donít feel obligated to make it at will. More feats for class stuff!
    Last edited by MinotaurWarblad; 2019-05-22 at 12:27 AM.

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