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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I think the Bladesinger does that for Wizards, too, though admittedly any Wizard archetype doesn't kick in until level 2.
    Another subclass I haven't seen.

    What you're arguing, here, though, is that we just don't need the Hexblade Patron at all. Which I can shrug and agree with.
    Umm. Not quite. Like I posted before, I can deal with the "Weapon Patron", but I toned down the "starting power" of the Hexblade, so that other Warlock Patrons were still viable. (Mostly just no medium armor, and not giving full access to Martial Weapons.)

    Mostly to stop V-Human with PAM at 1st level "Hexblade" Warlock.

    My goal was to remove what I saw as a stupid bit of flavor (that comes at the expense of much better flavor) by changing the cost from the most flavorful part of the Warlock to more mechanical crunch: cantrip, spell, and invocation choices.
    Now, I can agree on Fluff/flavor.
    There needs to be some explaination as to where these Weapons come from.
    Beyond some "mysterious" Raven Queen.

    I can totally see a Holy Avenger being a Hexblade Patron, slowly revealing it's true power over 17 levels.

    Or a Dragonslayer doing the same.

    I'm still working on the "Evil" Hexblade, mostly on how it's different from Fiend Patron. I suppose "Revenger" can work, but I try to be a little less obvious.

    Most of the "common" Hexblade weapons are Awakened magical weapons.
    (Work in Progress)
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-05-23 at 12:14 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    "Slowly revealing the power of a magic weapon" is more of a Fighter archetype than anything else, methinks.

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    "Slowly revealing the power of a magic weapon" is more of a Fighter archetype than anything else, methinks.
    Would you prefer an actual Patron (like every other Warlock), as opposed to the "weapon" being that?

    Like, the weapon is a gift of the "Hexblade" Patron, but the true power comes from the Being? (The Weapon is only a link)

    Segev was opposed to that; seeing it as only one step away from connection to a deity. (I think)

    With the exception of giving nerfed Legendary Weapons at first level, it's hard to imagine the same Weapon at 1st level being able to grant all the Warlock powers (spells, Invocations, "Hexblade" abilities) up to 20th level.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Would you prefer an actual Patron (like every other Warlock), as opposed to the "weapon" being that?

    Like, the weapon is a gift of the "Hexblade" Patron, but the true power comes from the Being? (The Weapon is only a link)

    Segev was opposed to that; seeing it as only one step away from connection to a deity. (I think)

    With the exception of giving nerfed Legendary Weapons at first level, it's hard to imagine the same Weapon at 1st level being able to grant all the Warlock powers (spells, Invocations, "Hexblade" abilities) up to 20th level.
    I don't think I said anything about a deity in this thread, connections thereto or otherwise.

    I just think the notion that a sentient weapon is your distant, otherworldly Patron but not something you can or even necessarily ever will be able to wield is really, really dumb fluff and flavor. Add in that the entire Patron makes little mechanical sense for non-Bladepact Warlocks, despite its abilities technically working for them to some degree, and it's bad design, inelegantly done, with an obvious purpose that says, "We think we screwed up the Pact of the Blade by not giving it enough early level support."

    So the effort here was to take what was obviously the main purpose of the Hexblade Patron - the Pact of the Blade/Gish support - and turn it into things that cost something other than the Patron choice. And ditching or setting aside as reasonably unrelated options the things that were clearly tacked onto Hexblade Patron to fill it out when they ran out of ideas that played directly to the purpose.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I don't think I said anything about a deity in this thread, connections thereto or otherwise.
    Sorry.

    I just think the notion that a sentient weapon is your distant, otherworldly Patron but not something you can or even necessarily ever will be able to wield is really, really dumb fluff and flavor.
    I was more thinking that the weapon was a physical manifestation of the "contract" with the Patron, more than a direct connection.

    Update
    So, the player (also new 5e DM) tried my first idea, and so far has liked it. I did allow the Invocation for Medium Armor, if desired.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-01 at 04:33 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    One problem I can see VERY invocation taxing.
    Two of the invocation to replica 1st level of hexblade, then thirtsy blade to be a competitive melee attacker. Thats already 3 invocatons, and then to reacreate the hex armor thing another one. I would rather just go normal hexblade, and deal with the ugliness just so i have the 4 extra invocation for custimization.

    This fix punishes the person chosing to play a gish warlock.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    Quote Originally Posted by Winddragco View Post
    One problem I can see VERY invocation taxing.
    Two of the invocation to replica 1st level of hexblade, then thirtsy blade to be a competitive melee attacker. Thats already 3 invocatons, and then to reacreate the hex armor thing another one. I would rather just go normal hexblade, and deal with the ugliness just so i have the 4 extra invocation for custimization.

    This fix punishes the person chosing to play a gish warlock.
    While I see the argument, I disagree. To illustrate my perspective, pretend that "Hexblade Patron" had never been invented. Now, say I invented this as my homebrew fix to the fact that "gish warlocks suck at levels 1 and 2." And then I expanded the options with the extra invocations.

    In such a scenario, would you say this was punishing gishlocks? I don't see how it could be; it's adding options to make them better able to gish.

    I do understand your position: you see this as punishing them in comparison to the Hexblade Patron. In practice, though, they get 90% of the Patron's gifts from adding shillelagh as a cantrip and the 1st level spell. At worst, they lose one Invocation to either the already-extant mage armor invocation or to the new one that gives medium armor proficiency. And they now have an entire Patron that fits however they wish to play, rather than being locked into Hexblade for wanting Pact of the Blade not to suck.

    So, I think you should also consider what other Patrons can do in conjunction with the options presented here. Remember that taking Hexblade as a Patron costs you other Patron options.

    Imagine, for example, a Fiend Patron on your gish with these options, adding the bonuses to saving throws and the fairly easy access to temp hp for brutally slaughtering things in melee.

    ...that would be an interesting next exercise, though: coming up with Patrons who are rewarding for Gishlocks without being so focused that they demand Pact of the Blade and/or gishing. Right now, Fiend is probably the best, followed by Archfey, and GOO is...not the best for gishing, no. Raven Queen also doesn't really do much for a gish. Hexblade only does because it's custom built for PAct of the Blade (and really does almost nothing for any other Pact).


    Playing on "gish's" origins, maybe Gith as a Patron...?

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    I will show this to our DM and hopefully I can test this. I think the reason why I find it taxing on invocation is because our party rarely has wizard. So it is more convieant if the warlock had the eyes of the ruins, and various other utility invocations to compensate for party compensation.Edit: another reason are some invocations that goes with rp.

    Some thoughts:i have seen a person on another thread suggest baking the hex warrior and charisma for attack/damage ability into the pact of the blade, and making the patron a straight up curse patron. I am newish to dnd(1.5 years), so I don't think I can whip up anything good with that idea.

    Edit: sorry if this post was a mess. I am on mobile with tiny tiny screen atm.
    Last edited by Winddragco; 2019-06-20 at 05:49 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Turning the Hexblade "Patron" into modular powers

    Yeah, youíre not building a wizard-replacer if youíre going gish. Though you can make choices to build more caster than warrior, even here. With this, just raking Shillelagh as a Cantrip goes a long way. The curse spell isnít crucial to effective gishing, though youíll probably want an invocation for the armor proficiency, or for mage armor.

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