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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    We've been told that what your followers do affect the gods themselves, so Odin has gone a bit doolally because he's god of magic and all his worshippers hate magic. Since all Hel's worshippers are the desperate or the undead, that could definitely have had an effect on her personality.
    Hel doesn't appear to get anything from the undead all. Besides the dwarves not wanting to go to her, we have no idea what the general view of her in the North actually is.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Like in discworld!
    Where the gods appearance is based off of what people belive they look like!
    And a gods power is based on how msny belivers he/she has!
    But thing is in discworld the gods explicitly were created by mortal belief, while in OOTS the gods were the ones who created the world and mortals.

    So why would the OOTS gods create mortals in such a way there can be such a drastic feedback loop?

    And heck, how were the gods sustaining themselves previously?

    Now thinking about it, it's entirely possible the OOTS gods initially were created by/from mortals too (just like the Dark One spontaneously arised just from the collected will of goblinkind). Then they blew up that first world and were the only thing that remained and started to starve so they tried to make a new world, spawned the snarl and that's how actually the whole cycle started!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I did. Your apparent dislike for my argument aside. Though I would add that calling your unsupported assertion and three more assertions that build on that one points strikes me as overly generous.

    Again:
    Evil gods, death gods, and evil death gods have plenty of worshipers and clerics in D&D settings. Hel doesn't because she's barred from having them, not because she's unprecedentedly repulsive.
    In the D&D settings I'm familiar with, most death gods are not popular to worship. There are some exceptions, but the only ones I can think of are non-evil. Congregations of evil death gods are all but universally treated as cults rather than popular institutions.
    Hel seems to be more like Wee Jas or Nerull than Kelemvor. Why should I not assume she was a death god in the same vein?


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That's wrong. Most people before the event of regular medicine were very aware of how omnipresent death is. Not only does pretty much everyone knows dead people, but there are entire professions that deal exclusively in death (ie morticians who are needed in every city not just ports unlike sailors) and soldiers. Not to mention that Hades did have an establish clergy, and that death-themed festivals are a pretty universal phenomenon. Death may not be as common as rain, but it is much more important.
    Soldiers tended to worship war gods (like Ares), because as it happens things can be death-related without being most closely related to Hades's domain. Morticians, yes, but if you have more morticians in your society than sailors (especially if you include fishermen and others whose professions are sea-based) you are either landlocked or in big trouble.
    I believe Hades had a clergy. I never said he wasn't worshiped. I said he was. I just said he wasn't worshiped as much as, say, Aphrodite.

    Why the Hel are you trying to say I don't think death gods are important, when I never said they weren't? I said they didn't get prayed to as much as other gods, that's not the same as saying they didn't get prayed to. In fact, I explicitly said they were prayed to.


    What's so hard to get about the idea that death gods can be prayed to, but not much? "Much" compared to how often non-gods are prayed to, of course, but not much compared to other gods.
    I'm sick of having to tell people "No, my argument isn't based on saying Hel wouldn't have goddam worshipers."



    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron L View Post
    I don't think Hel would go for it as I think she is very unstable from not receiving the proper kind of devotion required for divine "good nutrition" (similar to the situation Odin is in.)
    I did specify "If Hel were proselytizing strategically".


    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    But thing is in discworld the gods explicitly were created by mortal belief, while in OOTS the gods were the ones who created the world and mortals.

    So why would the OOTS gods create mortals in such a way there can be such a drastic feedback loop?

    And heck, how were the gods sustaining themselves previously?

    Now thinking about it, it's entirely possible the OOTS gods initially were created by/from mortals too (just like the Dark One spontaneously arised just from the collected will of goblinkind). Then they blew up that first world and were the only thing that remained and started to starve so they tried to make a new world, spawned the snarl and that's how actually the whole cycle started!
    That's an interesting idea. I doubt it's what The Giant intends (or that he has any specific answer to "Where did the Gods come from?" in mind), but it's interesting.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Hades likely received more worship than Aphrodite. She doesn't have much of a portfolio that isn't shared with at least two other deities. Hades gets all the worship for funerals, near-death experiences, devotionals to dead ancestors and founding heroes, certain ritual associations with winter, a dab of hospitality related stuff and propitiation offerings to try and get a better afterlife.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Hel doesn't appear to get anything from the undead all.
    You mean, apart from creating the spirits for vampires and all her clerics being undead?

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    You mean, apart from creating the spirits for vampires and all her clerics being undead?
    Yes, because in terms of godly "nourishment", which the conversation seemed to be about, they apparently aren't included.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Yes, because in terms of godly "nourishment", which the conversation seemed to be about, they apparently aren't included.
    I thought it was because all of her clerics were killed by adventurers as soon as she made them.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    I thought it was because all of her clerics were killed by adventurers as soon as she made them.
    Yes, I thought that too.

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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Yes, I thought that too.
    Something along the lines of "And every time I empower an undead, it gets killed by a party of adventuters as a dungeon boss."
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    I thought it was because all of her clerics were killed by adventurers as soon as she made them.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Yes, I thought that too.
    Why? Thor's explanation on what the gods need to survive and how they get it from mortals says nothing about the undead.

    When Thor said she's been filling up on "empty dedications" I thought it was obvious he was referring to the dwarves who go to her after dying dishonorably, who really don't want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard_Lizard View Post
    Something along the lines of "And every time I empower an undead, it gets killed by a party of adventuters as a dungeon boss."
    That's an entirely different issue than the one we were talking about.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-05-18 at 09:58 AM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Why? Thor's explanation on what the gods need to survive and how they get it from mortals says nothing about the undead.

    When Thor said she's been filling up on "empty dedications" I thought it was obvious he was referring to the dwarves who go to her after dying dishonorably, who really don't want to.



    That's an entirely different issue than the one we were talking about.
    sorry.....
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rrmcklin View Post
    Why? Thor's explanation on what the gods need to survive and how they get it from mortals says nothing about the undead.
    Well, undead aren't mortals, to start off with.
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Hades likely received more worship than Aphrodite. She doesn't have much of a portfolio that isn't shared with at least two other deities. Hades gets all the worship for funerals, near-death experiences, devotionals to dead ancestors and founding heroes, certain ritual associations with winter, a dab of hospitality related stuff and propitiation offerings to try and get a better afterlife.
    Since you're continuing to discuss Greek religion...relevant link (and the reason I picked Aphrodite)


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well, undead aren't mortals, to start off with.
    Are they? Does "mortals" mean anything that dies, anything that isn't a god, a handful of creature types including Humanoid, something else? All we know for certain is that Humanoids are included in the group.
    You might be right, but you might be wrong. Not great evidence.
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Are they? Does "mortals" mean anything that dies, anything that isn't a god, a handful of creature types including Humanoid, something else? All we know for certain is that Humanoids are included in the group.
    You might be right, but you might be wrong. Not great evidence.
    Death by old age seems to be effectively where the line is drawn in works that draw a distinction. If you have a finite lifespan, then you are mortal. Many creatures do not. They can still die (eg. the Eastern Pantheon was killed), but you have lifespan cap. So undead, like vampires, skeletons, etc., would not be mortals under this definition.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-05-18 at 03:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heksefatter View Post
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Death by old age seems to be effectively where the line is drawn in works that draw a distinction. If you have a finite lifespan, then you are mortal. Many creatures do not. They can still die (eg. the Eastern Pantheon was killed), but you have lifespan cap. So undead, like vampires, skeletons, etc., would not be mortals under this definition.
    That is the general rule, but it's not always the rule (especially when "mortal" is described in relation to the divine), so I'm not confident in saying it must be true of the OotS-verse. Especially when we know there are undead who have special relationships with their gods, especially especially when the gods seem to expect something abstract out of those relationships (e.g, the undead clerics Hel kept raising).
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    That is the general rule, but it's not always the rule (especially when "mortal" is described in relation to the divine), so I'm not confident in saying it must be true of the OotS-verse. Especially when we know there are undead who have special relationships with their gods, especially especially when the gods seem to expect something abstract out of those relationships (e.g, the undead clerics Hel kept raising).
    It must be true for this Oots because if it weren't Hel wouldn't be in the position she's in. Thor specifies exactly what it is the gods need the mortals for, and also specifies Hel isn't getting (most) of it. This in spite of us knowing she has plenty of undead servants (she had no high-level clerics, but that doesn't matter for this conversation).

    I don't think it's ambiguous at all here.

    Edit: Also, referred to the living (specifically Recloak) as "mortal" in a way that's obviously excluding himself in strip 1039.
    Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2019-05-18 at 05:00 PM.
    I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish

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    Default Re: Why not call off the wager?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    This raises an interesting question. How much of the godsí character is dependent on the mortalsí belief, and how much is how they originally were?

    If everybody think Hel is terribly evil then she gets worse, and her actions will lead the next generation to think of her as worse than the generation before did. Repeat until the godís character reaches an equilibrium it can never escape. The question wouldnít be ask if the inter-world period was long enough for a personality to reset but we know from Odin it isnít.
    Maybe Twelve Gods were supporting SG's crusades because there was many followers who believe that they act just like that.
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