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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    I already mostly do that.

    Basically I only allow gold to buy items with straight plusses, other powers are found by questing. So, basically, he puts all of his money towards buying a better wand and ignores everything else.
    All I can say, here - is don't let him make you feel guilty, for things he does to himself.

    Just keep doing what you're doing.

    Sometimes being consistent earns respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorsa View Post
    So... uh... he wants you to GM Diablo: the RPG for him?
    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Yes. Although easier / less random as the rare champion monsters that Diablo occasionally spawns are a sepcific example he has mentioned of the type of game he hates.
    You would literally have to look up Diablo Dungeon maps (or various Editions of D&D Modules), and either drawing (or printing, if possible) them out:
    (Personally I'd consider any time spent actually making Encounter/Dungeon maps by hand a waste of time, with this guy.)
    And then pre-placing every Monster (at a CR at least half their Level, with Bosses never more than equal to their level) so that it was "easy" to beat, but still giving full WBL - plus extra for selling leftover spell slots.

    Without "peer pressure" from the other Players, things won't change.

    Man, I feel for ya.

    Spoiler: IMO
    Show
    I'd actually like to know more about your World; and if you're interested share mine.

    But, I would not like being a Player in a game with him. I'm sure that he can be a nice guy, and even ok at portraying his PC, but acting like there should never be any real mystery (anything random) in the Game, or challenges to his PC - despite him not getting anything for Defense/Recovery, would just ruin any enjoyment for me.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Yes. Although easier / less random as the rare champion monsters that Diablo occasionally spawns are a sepcific example he has mentioned of the type of game he hates.
    You know, there's an existing D&D 3.0 pair of Diablo sourcebooks, including a pre-written campaign, out there...

    *innocent whistling*



    Warning: Do not try to run Diablo II: To Hell And Back. Do not try to use classes from Diablo II: Diablerie. The management will not be held responsible for injuries or loss of friendship from interacting with Diablo II sourcebooks. Attempting to use Diablo II sourcebooks may cause all other material to appear balanced and fair by comparison.
    Last edited by Friv; 2019-06-04 at 11:52 AM.
    If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.

  3. - Top - End - #273
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    @Friv - Right.

    Don't forget AD&D 2e "Diablo II"
    The Awakening.
    The Secret Cow Level.

    More Innocent Whistling...
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-04 at 01:08 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    So, some more issues with "Bob".

    First, at this point it is kind of bugging me that he not only doesn't care about RP and lore, now he is kind of showing active contempt for it. There are some mysteries in his backstory and they were talking to an NPC who can shed light onto them, and when I suggested he could ask his response was "If onowing something does't make me more powerful, its not worth wasting game time talking about it."


    Second, so I got some more info about his kotivations in the fight he decided to sit out.

    Basically It was against a group of elite hobgoblin pirates, and I described them as being "better equipped and trained than the navy of your home kingdom, with gear the is obviously old and threadbare but well maintained, and despite their obvious discipline their morale is clearly hanging by a thread,".

    The party got the drop on them while doing drills, and I really hoped the PCs would try diplomacy or stealth as it was a pretty tough fight. The PCs walked right up to them and their commander asked what the PCs wanted.

    The party face said "Your bosses head!" At which point the commander ordered them to take battle positions, and I described them spreading out in a semi circle, drawing their weapons, and waiting for the PCs to make the next move, OOC giving them anither chance to try diplomacy.

    Instead the party attacked, the melee charging and the mage casting a fireball which caught eight of them, although miraculously all but one of them saved.
    On their turn the hobgoblin commander ordered them to "focus fire on the witch," as the sorceress clearly had the lowest defense and highest offense in the party, and the five hobgoblins who were both unengaged and still alive all took a shot, all hit (another amazing roll) and took her down in one volley.

    At that point the player went into the next room to take a nap and refused to come back even after being healed and as a result we came within a hair of another TPK.


    I asked WHY he was so upset, and the sorceress' player told me it was because I gave them a "free turn" by allowing them to switch from drill formation to combat formation during the dialogue scene, and as a result she was not able to catch all of them with a single fireball, which was perceived as cheating on my part.

    In my mind this doesn't seem a reasonable complaint, I allow the PCs to move during dialogue, and the party didn't try and get the drop on them using stealth or the like, so the dojng drills part was mostly just flavor text... BUT I am trying to be more open and less dismissive of my players complaints, so what do you guys think I should nave done / should do in the future?



    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    I'd actually like to know more about your World; and if you're interested share mine.


    Always love talking shop with other GMs.

    I have a campaign diary written up for my current game, I think maybe I will start posting some of it this weekend.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2019-06-05 at 08:44 AM.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    In my mind this doesn't seem a reasonable complaint, I allow the PCs to move during dialogue, and the party didn't try and get the drop on them using stealth or the like, so the dojng drills part was mostly just flavor text... BUT I am trying to be more open and less midmissive of my players complaints, so what do yuo guys think I should nave done / should do in the future?
    I know that you've said repeatedly that you can't kick Bob out of the game and that you'd rather have a bad game than no game, but if so many things were annoying me enough to post them on a forum, I'd just stop playing with Bob.

    Short of that, it seems that Bob's preferred playstyle is to have wave after wave of mindless enemies of a CR 3-4 points below the party level that come in handy formations for you to affect them with area spells. The questions to answer now are: 1) What is your preferred playstyle? 2) What is everyone else's preferred playstyle? and 3) How can we all compromise and play a game that we all can enjoy and stop finding fault with it every other day?
    You'll notice that for that to work everyone needs to accommodate, including Bob.

    I could say something about what you could have done differently in that scene, but I refuse to give any GMing advice that amounts to "treat NPCs as mindless sacks of XP and loot that come in handy formations for you to affect them with area spells."

  6. - Top - End - #276
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Talakeal, I think, for you, I'm going to go back to my old, extremist stance: most problems in a game are caused when the GM wants something.

    No, seriously, think about it: if you hadn't wanted Bob to talk to the NPC, you wouldn't be bothered by his refusal. If you hadn't wanted to give the PCs the chance to talk to the hobgoblin pirates, and had just asked, "what do you do?", and they had responded with "fireball them while they're in a convenient group!", you wouldn't have this issue. If you didn't care about perfectly depleting all their resources in perfect Combat as Sport, you would be better positioned to listen to your players, and find out (and test out) what they want out of a game.

    If you can take the Ancient's advice to Doctor Strange, that it's not about you, remove yourself and your wants from the game, and just focus on perfecting the game to their specifications, I think you (and maybe they) would learn a lot.

    Yes, most likely, they "don't know what they want" - or, at the very least, cannot articulate it well. But they want something. Run one-shots; change what you're offering to what they *say* that they want, and discuss with the group. Repeat until everyone feels confident that everyone knows what everyone wants. Then discuss whether a game that everyone will enjoy is something that you can deliver.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Talakeal, I think, for you, I'm going to go back to my old, extremist stance: most problems in a game are caused when the GM wants something.

    No, seriously, think about it: if you hadn't wanted Bob to talk to the NPC, you wouldn't be bothered by his refusal. If you hadn't wanted to give the PCs the chance to talk to the hobgoblin pirates, and had just asked, "what do you do?", and they had responded with "fireball them while they're in a convenient group!", you wouldn't have this issue. If you didn't care about perfectly depleting all their resources in perfect Combat as Sport, you would be better positioned to listen to your players, and find out (and test out) what they want out of a game.

    If you can take the Ancient's advice to Doctor Strange, that it's not about you, remove yourself and your wants from the game, and just focus on perfecting the game to their specifications, I think you (and maybe they) would learn a lot.

    Yes, most likely, they "don't know what they want" - or, at the very least, cannot articulate it well. But they want something. Run one-shots; change what you're offering to what they *say* that they want, and discuss with the group. Repeat until everyone feels confident that everyone knows what everyone wants. Then discuss whether a game that everyone will enjoy is something that you can deliver.
    I might be willing to do that IF the players were a unanimous block. The problem is that what 3/4 of them want is to explore a compelling fictional reality which I literally can't create without also forming my own prejudices and expectations.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I might be willing to do that IF the players were a unanimous block. The problem is that what 3/4 of them want is to explore a compelling fictional reality which I literally can't create without also forming my own prejudices and expectations.
    Is the sorceress the party face? That wasn't clear one way or the other from the description. I assume Bob plays the sorceress.

    At this point, just ignore Bob. I don't mean that in a mean, shunning way. I mean, don't plan for Bob to be anything but a beatstick. He's not interested - he's told and demonstrated to you that he's not interested - in anything but things that make his PC better able to defeat enemies. Let him play on his phone or whatever until a fight breaks out, and then let him get in on things. I would normally tell you to point out that nothing stopped him from fireballing the hobgoblins while they were drilling, but a) you said that's "cheating" in your mind (why?) and b) that would only encourage him to deny other players the opportunity to do things you claim they want to do (by starting fights with every creature they come across in an attempt to catch them off-guard).

    I'm also not convinced of your claim that they're not a unanimous block, unless the face is the sorceress is Bob. If the face is the sorceress is Bob, CHANGE THAT. Bob doesn't want to play a Face. And if he claims to want to, it's only to be a jerk to the others by denying them options other than his preferred "fight fight fight fight." There's nothing wrong with just being there for the fighting, as a player, but there is something wrong with forcing it on others who would prefer to try nonviolent solutions where possible.

    Can you give us examples of the other players' preferences in play? How did the other players react to the insistence on picking this fight, when you were giving them opportunity to engage in RP? Are you sure they weren't also eager for this fight?


    And, in the future, remember the phrase: "Are you sure?" When they approached without trying to sneak, etc. etc., you were surprised. If they take an action you find surprising because you think it tactically unwise, ask them why they're doing it and what they expect to happen. Point out any flaws you think obvious that a character who is living and breathing in the world, rather than seeing it only through the words you're choosing (and what of those they catch), would probably be able to tell. Ask them their goals before you start a scene, and point out anything they're doing that goes counter to them in your mind.

    Let them proceed regardless if they don't change their minds, but if you'd asked, "Okay, so you just walk up openly to them? What do you want to achieve with this?" and they'd said "we're going to jump them and kill them," you could have pointed out that they're all clumped up in drill formation right now, and don't know you're there yet, and that walking up to them would forego any element of surprise and give them a chance to ready for battle.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    @Segev:

    No, I don't consider it cheating. Bob said he considers it cheating for the NPCs to move during negotiations.

    Bob is not the party face, but he does complain if the party face (or any other player) talks too long and will sometimes sabotage negotiations by simply attacking while the rest of the group is talking either because it gives him a tactical advantage or because he just got bored.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Edit: Quertus - the series of "one shot" games might be best for awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I asked WHY he was so upset, and the sorceress' player told me it was because I gave them a "free turn" by allowing them to switch from drill formation to combat formation during the dialogue scene, and as a result she was not able to catch all of them with a single fireball, which was perceived as cheating on my part.

    In my mind this doesn't seem a reasonable complaint, I allow the PCs to move during dialogue, and the party didn't try and get the drop on them using stealth or the like, so the dojng drills part was mostly just flavor text... BUT I am trying to be more open and less midmissive of my players complaints, so what do yuo guys think I should nave done / should do in the future?
    Ok. To me, this is just another aspect of the Paradox I mentioned before.

    The Sorceress' Player wanted to just Fireball nuke everyone, "instant win", and just "walk away". I also agree with you, Talakeal, in that this Player wanted a tactical advantage and also gets bored too easily.

    Q: Seriously, why isn't he playing an Assassin Rogue? (This seems to be his Style) All the Sorceress has are AoE with Slightly better damage, if the Targets fail their saves.

    ***
    Q: does anyone in the Party have either the Alert or the Observant feats?

    If so, you could just "use Passive Insight" for the Group, with +5 for the Observant PC, to tell the group the basic intention of foes. Maybe at least a clue about how powerful/tough they are?

    When the Hobs started to shift to Combat Formation you could have had the Alert PC roll initiative first. Perhaps using the "Passive Insight" (rolling might be better, here) for everyone, if no one has that feat. Then roll for initiative for those that respond. This would make it very obvious that combat was about to happen.

    (Personally, I think that having people roll, but unable to act that round, is frustrating for the Players. But, with this guy, you're most likely going to have to do the Everyone Roll, so that he at least feels like he did something.)

    ***
    The things that I can suggest trying in the future, is

    (1) Stop giving this Player information about the Game World. Make notes when the PC actually affects something in the Game (more notes for those actually involved), and then figure out what changes - away from the Table.

    Simply give information to those that ask.
    Since this can be a change in Style, I'd print out at least an overview of the World, and the Region they are in (with maps), and give that to each Player. Saying to everyone: "If you want more information, just ask." With no distinguishments on if that's IC or OoC, since either can be handled.

    (2) Don't make Encounters that depend on him being involved. If he is, ok - deal with that. This way, the other Players don't have to worry about a TPK if he storms off.

    (2a) Don't stop play when he leaves.
    (I'd actually not give him any Exp for missed RP and Encounters. YMMV.)

    (3) Put in more Spellcasters.
    (And other "Classed" NPCs)
    I use them whenever possible.

    Counterspell could have stopped the use of the Fireball spell for more "you really want to talk with these people."

    Now, the drawback for you is that this will cause this Player to cry "no fair". So, you'll have to decide how likely (and how often) a Spellcaster (including Divine) is to happen in each Group Encountered.

    While it might not help, I'd go ahead and have notes "proving" that I didn't just Add the Caster (with spells) at the last moment.

    (I can understand your desire to Play, since I was very similar. However, I forced myself to be more "dedicated to the fun of the group", and try to treat everyone equally. As such, I am less forgiving to people with this guy's attitude.
    But then, I can accept not being able to play for awhile.)

    Always love talking shop with other GMs.

    I have a campaign diary written up for my current game, I think maybe I will start posting some of it this weekend.
    I'd recommend using the World Building subforum.

    Just send me a PM to let me know, with at least the title (or link) for ease of finding.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-05 at 12:50 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    @Segev:

    No, I don't consider it cheating. Bob said he considers it cheating for the NPCs to move during negotiations.

    Bob is not the party face, but he does complain if the party face (or any other player) talks too long and will sometimes sabotage negotiations by simply attacking while the rest of the group is talking either because it gives him a tactical advantage or because he just got bored.
    How do the other players feel about him doing this? How do their characters react? How do THEY react at the table?

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Not caring about things can be because someone doesn’t care - it can also be a learned reaction when people realize or believe that they have no control over the situation.

    I can conceive of a situation here where Bob feels that potions/etc are pointless, because that is a learned response.

    You’ve said outright that you rebalance encounters based on party condition. That could end up playing like this, whether it’s real or not:

    “Okay, I bought a bunch of potions.... and now I go into the next fight and of course he made it tougher since we were in great shape. So why did I bother buying potions? I should have kept the cash, and then if we were weaker he would just rebalance the encounter anyway. “

    It sounds, to me, like whether you believe you are running a sandbox or not you are strongly prescribing outcomes of events, or at least giving that impression. In your description of the encounter you describe a whole sequence of events that you presume will happen, and don’t allow players to react to events that occur. That would frustrate me.

    If you really want help, I’d get one of your players on here so that maybe we could see the story from other perspectives. I think that would be extremely valuable.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    . You’ve said outright that you rebalance encounters based on party condition. That could end up playing like this, whether it’s real or not:
    Hold up here.

    No, I would never rebalance or change an encounter mid session for any reason short of a legitimate mistake.

    What I said is that when I am creating new content I try and keep it within the difficulty that the players can meaningfully interact with it, whether that is based on character level, player experiance, or party composition.

    I also said that when I am RPing a monster and am presented with several equally valid decisions I will often pick the one that means the more fun game, which sometimes means playing a smart monster slightly dumber if the party is struggling and vice versa.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    “Okay, I bought a bunch of potions.... and now I go into the next fight and of course he made it tougher since we were in great shape. So why did I bother buying potions? I should have kept the cash, and then if we were weaker he would just rebalance the encounter anyway.
    That may be what he believes. Its not correct, but as we have stablished he doesn't trust me at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    sounds, to me, like whether you believe you are running a sandbox or not you are strongly prescribing outcomes of events, or at least giving that impression. In your description of the encounter you describe a whole sequence of events that you presume will happen, and don’t allow players to react to events that occur. That would frustrate me.
    Can you give me an example of that?

    Generally I have a basic idea of the encounters personality, motives, and prefered tactics, but it is all pretty vague and mostly boils down to how much comvincing it will take to make an ally of it.

    Would you consider followjng the preffered tactics listed in a D&D monster manual to be a whole sequence of expected events? Because those are way more detailed than anything I ever plan out.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  14. - Top - End - #284
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I might be willing to do that IF the players were a unanimous block. The problem is that what 3/4 of them want is to explore a compelling fictional reality which I literally can't create without also forming my own prejudices and expectations.
    Segev said about half my response to this already. In short, it would be difficult for you to more efficiently convince me that one-shots are the answer than to say the above.

    For each one-shot, you tailor it to one or more players' current stated preferences.

    So, suppose that, between your 4 players, they describe 6 elements that they prefer. You then prepare 3 one-shots that, between them, encompass those 6 preferences. Then, after those 3 one-shots, you ask them if you delivered*, and if they wish to refine their preferences. If they have a new list of 6 preferences, run another 3 one-shots - or, even if it's the same ones, or if there's similarities or some that remained, make sure to mix them up, and not just run functionally the same combinations again and again.

    Then, once everyone agrees that everyone understands what everyone wants, discuss things that are various types of incompatible, or that you don't know how to run together, and see if they have any ideas.

    IMO, "style-sharing" is much like "spotlight sharing". One player wants lore and interaction and "talky bits", while another wants combat. Seems incompatible, yet creatures can talk in combat (at tables that aren't yours, at least), or there can be a mix of combat and "talky" encounters, or Sherlock Holmes can gather lore off their cold dead bodies, or… there are *lots* of ways to handle this.

    The point is, *ask your players* how *they* would like to handle this.

    Another handy technique is to discuss scenes that were really good - or really bad. Obviously, Bob will say that the fairy ogre was really bad, because it felt like you were cheating just to beat him.

    So, getting that old list, then repeating this just with the one-shots, so that you know how they took your more recent work, will also help you see what they do and don't like, and whether discussions or your new styles of running the game are changing anything.

    * The fail case, where you know there was a disconnect, is if they have to ask, "which one had X?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Great Dragon View Post
    Edit: Quertus - the series of "one shot" games might be best for awhile.
    Probably. Currently, it feels like there's too many things getting in the way of experimenting to find the problem / to find solutions, and "the game's momentum" is one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    No, I don't consider it cheating. Bob said he considers it cheating for the NPCs to move during negotiations.
    I agree with Bob.

    That is, it's perfectly fine for the hobgoblins to react to the party's words by moving into attack formation. It makes perfect sense. However, it also makes sense for the party to react to the hobgoblins attempting to move by attempting to fireball them while they still have the tactical advantage. Depending on the scenario, it could be treated as a held action, or as time for initiative. Whereas the way you are describing it, it sounds like cut scene movement to railroad your agenda (which is how I imagine it comes off to Bob).
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-06-05 at 04:08 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    @Talakeal - your CaS adjusting and sandbox are traditionally mutually exclusive, of that helps.

    Heck, my hypersensitive ears hear "railroad" when you talk about adjusting tactics to make things the "right" level of challenging…

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    And what if the entire group's preferance is "no one shots?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I agree with Bob.

    That is, it's perfectly fine for the hobgoblins to react to the party's words by moving into attack formation. It makes perfect sense. However, it also makes sense for the party to react to the hobgoblins attempting to move by attempting to fireball them while they still have the tactical advantage. Depending on the scenario, it could be treated as a held action, or as time for initiative. Whereas the way you are describing it, it sounds like cut scene movement to railroad your agenda (which is how I imagine it comes off to Bob).
    Might I ask why?

    I am assuming you don't prefer a game world were everyone who isnt currently fighting is frozen and the PCs have to slap the barmaid aroind before she can deliver their drinks.

    Do you think I am running a "simon says" game where the PCs aren't allowed to take actions before I give them permission? If Bob had asked to interrupt their movement he could have attempted it, "cut-scene" or not.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  17. - Top - End - #287
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Haven't read the whole thread, am only answering to the beggining.

    In my opinion, Legendary actions and lair actions are something very rare, not many monsters have it, In my experience, only big, big bad bosses hace access to it.

    Now, that's most certainly not the crux of the problem, but the fact that your player doesn't trust you. In that case I would talk to this player, try to reach an agreement, make him see that the game isn't rigged or anything like that.

    If that doesn't work, just kick him out.
    Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty

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  18. - Top - End - #288
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    And what if the entire group's preferance is "no one shots?"
    In that case, all you can do is keep trying to portray the World (as you envision it) with the challenge that you made; and hope that at least some of the problems will work themselves out.

    Edit
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    You've been flying blind for, what, over a decade now?

    For such a group, I would ask them how *they* purpose fixing things. <Snip>
    I would, I really would. This might be the "best" way to save the game.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-05 at 06:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    And what if the entire group's preferance is "no one shots?"
    You've been flying blind for, what, over a decade now? A group willing to put that much time and effort into Bizarro World gaming, but unwilling to take the steps best designed to make things better? It's like wanting to drive across country, but not wanting to pay for gas.

    For such a group, I would ask them how *they* purpose fixing things. And, tbh, depending on my mood, I might be more prepared to laugh at them than to actually listen to the merits of their ideas.

    And that's what I'm trying to avoid.

    That's *why* I'm recommending so hard that you remove your own ego, remove the notion of this being a game, and set about making a series of "unimportant" one-shots, designed to optimize the facilitation of the healing process, designed to optimize everyone's ability to examine their beliefs, and to hear the beliefs of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    If Bob had asked to interrupt their movement he could have attempted it, "cut-scene" or not.
    Does Bob know that? Or does he feel that you are going to get bent out of shape, like when he(?) interrupted you "monologuing"?

    Social dynamics are complex beasts. Not being there, not having talked with Bob, I can only make guesses about possible things that could be going through his head, based on other players I've played with.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-06-05 at 05:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Hold up here.

    No, I would never rebalance or change an encounter mid session for any reason short of a legitimate mistake.

    What I said is that when I am creating new content I try and keep it within the difficulty that the players can meaningfully interact with it, whether that is based on character level, player experiance, or party composition.

    I also said that when I am RPing a monster and am presented with several equally valid decisions I will often pick the one that means the more fun game, which sometimes means playing a smart monster slightly dumber if the party is struggling and vice versa.
    Yeah, that's right...

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    I have a question for people.

    Earlier we were talking about PCs acting differently based on the needs of the game.

    Do you think it is bad for DM's to do the same? Because I have said that when designing an adventure I try and keep the relevant NPCs as close to the PCs level as is plausible without breaking the setting, and that I tend to play my NPCs "smarter" if the PCs are doing well and "dumber" if the PCs are struggling, although obviously within the bounds of what is reasonable for their character.
    That's still making the encounters harder if the party is doing well, and easier if they're doing poorly. Even if you're not modifying the encounter's numbers, you're modifying the difficulty.

    IOW, if they use their consumables, the game is going to be harder than if they didn't. And vice versa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    That may be what he believes. Its not correct, but as we have stablished he doesn't trust me at all.
    Clearly. But "no, you're dumb and wrong" doesn't fix that.

    I don't think you're doing a very good job of listening to the other players - and frankly, that's based on your behavior here, where you just counter the easy things to counter without addressing the more salient or hard to dismiss points. You come across as wanting to defend rather than understand. That's not conducive to solving this type of issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    @Talakeal - your CaS adjusting and sandbox are traditionally mutually exclusive, of that helps.

    Heck, my hypersensitive ears hear "railroad" when you talk about adjusting tactics to make things the "right" level of challenging…
    Question; who is that actually fun for?

    Like, weren't people arguing that I was too hard several pages ago? And even I think a DM who goes all out and plays as hard as they can without giving a struggling party a break sounds like a bit of a buzzkill.

    I imagine there would be significantly more bitching on the part of my players if I did that, not less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Does Bob know that? Or does he feel that you are going to get bent out of shape, like when he(?) interrupted you "monologuing"?

    Social dynamics are complex beasts. Not being there, not having talked with Bob, I can only make guesses about possible things that could be going through his head, based on other players I've played with.
    Yes, of course he knows it. He and other players have interrupted dialogue at many times.

    Now, by "bent out of shape by" do you mean baffled by how someone could consider a 9 second quip to be a monologue?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Yeah, that's right...



    That's still making the encounters harder if the party is doing well, and easier if they're doing poorly. Even if you're not modifying the encounter's numbers, you're modifying the difficulty.

    IOW, if they use their consumables, the game is going to be harder than if they didn't. And vice versa.



    Clearly. But "no, you're dumb and wrong" doesn't fix that.

    I don't think you're doing a very good job of listening to the other players - and frankly, that's based on your behavior here, where you just counter the easy things to counter without addressing the more salient or hard to dismiss points. You come across as wanting to defend rather than understand. That's not conducive to solving this type of issue.
    Ok, if you wanted to have a deeper and more difficulty discussion about things, why throw in a bunch of provocative and easy to counter half truths? I am not quite sure what the deeper issue even is; I already admitted that I need to be less dismissive of my players and am working on steps to communicate and build trust.


    The last couple of pages of this thread just feels really bizarre to me. Normally I get advice like "You need to be more flexible and less concerned about balance. Start fudging rolls! Realize that people's enjoyment is more important than setting consistency!"

    But in this thread its all like "OMG you sometimes actually base NPC decisions on what you think would be the most fun for the party rather than what is tactically optimal? RAILROADING OF THE HIGHEST ORDER!"


    Now, I do agree that a DM letting you win is condescending and dumb, and I would prefer if the DM never adjusted the difficulty, but I really don't think my players (or the majority of gamers) feel the same. Likewise, the idea that I have the ability or the desire to simply swap between difficulty settings is a bit much. I wouldn't say consumables make the game harder, quite the opposite, at best they may have diminishing returns. (E.G. get absolutely destroyed and suffer a crushing defeat to a dumb dragon who outclasses you in every way, vs. achieve a solid victory against an intelligent dragon whom you outclass in every way).
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Talakeal, I think, for you, I'm going to go back to my old, extremist stance: most problems in a game are caused when the GM wants something.

    No, seriously, think about it: if you hadn't wanted Bob to talk to the NPC, you wouldn't be bothered by his refusal.
    OK, this is approaching a "abandon hope so you can't be disappointed" mindset. While it may be true I think the GM has as much right to enjoy the game as any other player at the table. In fact, the best way to avoid conflict between players is to just not play a game. So Quertus I have the solution for all your RPG problems: quit.

    But that misses the point doesn't it. The point is that we are all here to have fun and just saying someone can't have fun is counter productive. Especially (assuming Talakeal is telling the truth, etc.) since you are not saying that to the one who is in conflict with the rest of the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Ok, if you wanted to have a deeper and more difficulty discussion about things, why throw in a bunch of provocative and easy to counter half truths? I am not quite sure what the deeper issue even is; I already admitted that I need to be less dismissive of my players and am working on steps to communicate and build trust.
    ... and case in point. Instead of going "huh, does he have something here?" you choose to react in a defensive way and try to defend rather than understand.

    I wish you the best of luck, truly. Though you may think otherwise, I have absolutely zero animosity towards you.

    But I don't think I can productively engage in this conversation any more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    The last couple of pages of this thread just feels really bizarre to me. Normally I get advice like "You need to be more flexible and less concerned about balance. Start fudging rolls! Realize that people's enjoyment is more important than setting consistency!"

    But in this thread its all like "OMG you sometimes actually base NPC decisions on what you think would be the most fun for the party rather than what is tactically optimal? RAILROADING OF THE HIGHEST ORDER!"
    Talakeal, in a thread you will get feedback and critique based on the flaws you demonstrate in that thread (whether they be your flaws, or flaws of your group that you can act upon). In this thread you demonstrated that there is some communication issues between you and the Players AND you have demonstrated that the players are having issues with trusting you.

    So you get feedback and critique addressing those flaws. If a player prefers a different difficulty and you are dismissing their concern, that dismissal gets pointed out. If a player distrusts your dynamic difficulty (especially if it is enough to be called an 8 year grudge) then the distrust will be pointed out and the dynamic difficulty mentioned as a culprit. If you demonstrate a grudge over a player not buying consumables, then you will be explained why they might not buy consumables. Etc Etc Etc.

    The constructive feedback you get is a function of which flaws you are brave enough to expose to the forum. That is how all critiquing works. We cannot see your world except through your words.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2019-06-05 at 09:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    @Talakeal - your CaS adjusting and sandbox are traditionally mutually exclusive, of that helps.

    Heck, my hypersensitive ears hear "railroad" when you talk about adjusting tactics to make things the "right" level of challenging…
    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Question; who is that actually fun for?

    Like, weren't people arguing that I was too hard several pages ago? And even I think a DM who goes all out and plays as hard as they can without giving a struggling party a break sounds like a bit of a buzzkill.

    I imagine there would be significantly more bitching on the part of my players if I did that, not less.
    There is a difference between a *fair* challenge, and an *unfair* challenge.

    Now, "Bob" might not be reasonable. And, if not, that's on him. But, if he's being honest about what bothers him about the way (he believes) that you've run games, he should be much happier with difficult but fair encounters than with always* difficult and often seemingly unfair encounters.

    Further, if you aren't constantly customizing the difficulty (CaS), then they have new CaW minigames to play and master. And, once they do, you have less to worry about regarding being too hard.

    Or, as I like to put it, I just make the world. Choosing their battles, and surviving the challenge, is on the players.

    * Heck, as it stands, you've told him that you will make sure that encounters are *always* going to be tougher than (he thinks) he wants, *and there's nothing he can do about it*.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Yes, of course he knows it. He and other players have interrupted dialogue at many times.

    Now, by "bent out of shape by" do you mean baffled by how someone could consider a 9 second quip to be a monologue?
    Well, yes. I mean, you polled the players, you posted on the Playground about it. You clearly had a reaction. And he almost certainly noticed.

    How he interpreted it, well, just look at your history… I think "bent out of shape" is well within the realm of possibilities here.

    Also - you say he's interrupted dialog. Great, but that's not what I was asking. Has he interpreted *movement*?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2019-06-06 at 09:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    ... and case in point. Instead of going "huh, does he have something here?" you choose to react in a defensive way and try to defend rather than understand.

    I wish you the best of luck, truly. Though you may think otherwise, I have absolutely zero animosity towards you.

    But I don't think I can productively engage in this conversation any more.
    You do realize that this whole post is just making excuses to do exactly what you are accusing me of doing, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Well, yes. I mean, you polled the players, you posted on the Playground about it. You clearly had a reaction. And he almost certainly noticed.

    How he interpreted it, well, just look at your history… I think "bent out of shape" is well within the realm of possibilities here.

    Also - you say he's interrupted dialog. Great, but that's not what I was asking. Has he interpreted *movement*?
    The reason I took a poll was in response to his statement "Everybody hates dialogue in combat," not that act of attacking the enemy.

    I cannot recall him specifically interrupting movement, but they can interrupt anything.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2019-06-05 at 09:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    OK, this is approaching a "abandon hope so you can't be disappointed" mindset. While it may be true I think the GM has as much right to enjoy the game as any other player at the table. In fact, the best way to avoid conflict between players is to just not play a game. So Quertus I have the solution for all your RPG problems: quit.

    But that misses the point doesn't it. The point is that we are all here to have fun and just saying someone can't have fun is counter productive. Especially (assuming Talakeal is telling the truth, etc.) since you are not saying that to the one who is in conflict with the rest of the table.
    Usually, I'm the one missing context; this time, I'm apparently not communicating it.

    This is in the context of *diagnosing* and *fixing* decade(s) old malignant player mistrust, and Bizarro World gaming stories.

    I'm not actually advocating mindless robot gaming (although it might be an improvement over some horror stories) - I'm advocating taking "Talakeal" out of Talakeal's evaluation of the game. I'm advocating listening, really *listening* to the players, in a way that, from here, sounds difficult for Talakeal (which, honestly, is a *good* sign, because it's bloody difficult for *most* people, and Talakeal is honest enough that we can brutally poke our friend In the right(ish) directions).

    So, it's not "abandon hope" - it's "there is hope, but the 'easiest' path is the hardest - it's the Strange path of learning that it's not about you".

    Agree or not, is that at least clearer and saner?

    Also, I'm not just addressing the one player. There seem to be numerous variables to tweak to optimize the experience for all involved. Like how apparently multiple people hate "monologuing"

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    Nope, Talakeal, GTFO.

    Your gamers are, in fact, the worst, and I think this is the one exception to the concept of "no gaming is worse than bad gaming". Everything you've said, especially about this Bob, is indicating they are toxic as radioactive waste, and I think you should run far and fast and either find new players, or find a new hobby, because these people (at least, if toxic-Bob is so central that kicking him out would destroy the group) are not worth the trouble.

    Quertus, you are trying to be rational with an irrational situation, and I don't think you trying to patiently apply your principles secondhand will work here, especially when Tal doesn't share your viewpoint on the structure of the game and the role of the GM.

    Talakeal, I honestly feel for you, man, because I don't see a way out of the scenario you've shown us. It is as barking into the void, expecting it to echo poetry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedWarlock View Post
    Nope, Talakeal, GTFO.

    Your gamers are, in fact, the worst, and I think this is the one exception to the concept of "no gaming is worse than bad gaming".

    Talakeal, I honestly feel for you, man, because I don't see a way out of the scenario you've shown us. It is as barking into the void, expecting it to echo poetry.
    Bolded = Hilarious!!

    Sadly, I tend to agree.

    "Bob" controls the game more than you, The DM. By using your desire to play, and the Peer Pressure ("Don't kick him out") from the Group, against you.

    The others have expressed an Interest in Exploring and Social/RP situations, but don't ever say anything to "Bob" when he ruins every attempt at it. (Hence my comment about Peer Pressure, it works in all directions.)
    *************
    Even going out and finding a second group would give you some breathing room.

    (I know overcoming "Shyness" is hard, but only by confronting that "fear", can you really overcome it.
    I'm glad that you are able to at least post online.
    Small steps are just fine.)

    *****
    I'm really not sure what more to say, that won't cause you more "Grief".
    My methods of GM-ing might not be acceptable to you.
    ***********
    I'll keep checking this tread, and make comments if I think of anything that might help.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-06-06 at 01:53 AM.

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