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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    I can't even imagine playing an entirely cooperative boardgame with someone like Bob. Maybe I've overlooked or missed it but I can't recall a single positive thing that's been said about the way they comport themself while playing a game. Maybe just run Progress Quest on a laptop to entertain Bob while everyone else plays a game?

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysiume View Post
    I can't even imagine playing an entirely cooperative boardgame with someone like Bob. Maybe I've overlooked or missed it but I can't recall a single positive thing that's been said about the way they comport themself while playing a game. Maybe just run Progress Quest on a laptop to entertain Bob while everyone else plays a game?
    (Bold) or even CCGs.

    (Italicized) I have suggested "getting Bob Skyrim, or something".
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    But, just now, I got a text from Bob saying that he heard about how I "Pissed away all of his character's resources the instant he left," and how he is really pissed off at me about it.
    I suggest changing your absent player rules.

    "When a Player is not present, their character does not exist. When the player returns, their character suffers the same outcome as the party did in the meantime."

    With those rules in place you NEVER have to deal with the live-grenade of taking control of someone else's character.

    I am shocked you are still having people control each other's characters. I mean, even good players can have strong preferences about other players controlling and mischaracterizing their character. Especially when it is the DM that did so. (See random bad DM thread) And with your players, I think you should have known the outcome was going to be bad feelings all around.

    PS: Under those rules, a TPK just happened. Time for a new campaign.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2019-06-30 at 10:55 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #364
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    I had a player who used to regularly send me complaints. I told him more than once that I wasn't changing x, y or z to the way he wanted it and I understood if he didn't want to play any more. It turned out that he did want to continue playing but also had a pathological need to be a whiny little bish at the same time. Anyway it got to a point I told him to stop complaining or I'd uninvite him, a couple of weeks later he was still creating drama so I banned him.

    tl;dr instead of enabling Bob, tell him GTFO. I would absolutely retcon the encounter to say Bob died rather than use his spells, the party won anyway, congratulations everyone except Bob.
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    At this point, you should simply tell Bob that he can either accept what's going on in the game, or leave, but you have done your best to listen to him, and it has proven impossible for you to accommodate him. So if he is that unhappy with the game, he can stop playing. If he's not, he can accept that things are as they are.

    Frankly, I think you should kick him out, but since you feel you cannot, you can simply invite him to leave, making it clear that it's his choice.

    If he chooses to stay, however, he is going to have to put up with whatever the game happens to contain, no matter how much he doesn't like it or it disinterests him.

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    This thread is now twelve pages of you posting stories complaining about how playing with Bob is not fun and getting told that you should stop playing with Bob. What exactly are you looking for here?
    This is a point well worth considering. As far as I can tell, nothing ever changes in the dynamic between you and Bob. He plays the way he wants to play, you GM the way you want to GM, and then you come on the boards here and vent about him. New controversies continually emerge as old ones fade, but the source of them--the fact that the two of you play TTRPGs with one another--is never going away.

    I know you've said before that for you, bad gaming is better than no gaming. And I'm not going to advise you to question whether that's true. What I would advise is to ask yourself why you believe that to be true. Because if you're going to carry on with something that's supposed to produce fun, but instead produces stress and conflict, you should be very clear with yourself as to the underlying reasons.
    Last edited by Tajerio; 2019-07-01 at 08:24 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Tajerio View Post
    This is a point well worth considering. As far as I can tell, nothing ever changes in the dynamic between you and Bob. He plays the way he wants to play, you GM the way you want to GM, and then you come on the boards here and vent about him. New controversies continually emerge as old ones fade, but the source of them--the fact that the two of you play TTRPGs with one another--is never going away.

    I know you've said before that for you, bad gaming is better than no gaming. And I'm not going to advise you to question whether that's true. What I would advise is to ask yourself why you believe that to be true. Because if you're going to carry on with something that's supposed to produce fun, but instead produces stress and conflict, you should be very clear with yourself as to the underlying reasons.
    As I said, the game is fine, its just that the amount of constant bitching, mostly from "bob", but not exclusively, the op was actually about a different player bitching, is really stressing me out away from the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koo Rehtorb View Post
    This thread is now twelve pages of you posting stories complaining about how playing with Bob is not fun and getting told that you should stop playing with Bob. What exactly are you looking for here?
    At this point I don't know. I had a few people asking for updates so I figured this was as good a place to vent as any.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    At this point I don't know. I had a few people asking for updates so I figured this was as good a place to vent as any.
    Having a place to vent can be very stress relieving, so go ahead and do that.

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  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    The thing is, besides the problems at the table, are you, overall, enjoying to GM for this group? Has your overall experince with this group been positive? If not, then you should probably leave. If yes, then obviously you shold work on improve it, and take measures in order to do so.
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  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Can I check something with Talakeal? I skipped about the last third of this thread, and I wanted to know one thing.

    1- the problem/resistance you are suffering about Legendary actions, is it the entire group or just 1 player? Because the OP makes it seem that there's only ONE player that is whining about it.

    2- Is that player Bob?

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSandman View Post
    On a more serious note, if people were talking to the bad guy and Bob literally fireballed him and left, I would just ignore his last action and return to the others actually deciding whether they want to fight the guy or not, instead of letting Bob impose such decision on them.
    I cannot support THIS too much.

    Even if you allow ONE player to simply interrupt what all the other players are doing (which is never a good idea if you want a cooperative game, mind in Paranoia or White WOlf Games this is quite ... fun at times ^^) you dont do so as a "**** you all, I`m off" fit of pique.

    General problems with Bobs very... Diablo view on RPG`s aside, any GM worth his salt in D&D in such a situation shoudl say "No, you dont. YOU dont decide that 3 other players and what they are doing are less important than you. Sit down and wait your turn!".
    Even if you submit to ONE Players "No Monologue "Rule", this was clearly not a monologue but an interaction of the other Players and your NPC:


    postscript: now if it was the plan of the group to distract the "Bad Guy and for "Fire Bob to blast him, disregard the above, then only leaving and bitching were bad form. ;)
    Last edited by GrayDeath; 2019-07-01 at 03:25 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Indeed, if Bob pulls a stunt that ends others' options to do things any way but his and then leaves them to deal with the consequences again, just retcon it. "No, Bob, you don't, because you're leaving now."

    Bob's behavior is poor in any event, but it's particularly bad to pull a move designed to force the kind of play he wants and then leave; he's not even participating in the kind of play he wants at that point!

    I would also take a note from Bob's constant "it's not important if it's not making my character more powerful." Make sure consequences for his behavior make his character weaker.

    Yes, it's spiteful, but you're playing the game the way he said he wants to play it. Additionally or alternatively, when the players other than Bob manage something they and you enjoy in terms of play, and Bob spites it, have something give them rewards for their efforts that make them more powerful in way Bob would appreciate, and specifically exclude him with the direct IC explanation that he picked a fight and the reward-granting thing is rewarding the others for their behavior that was contrary to Bob's.

    Note: I'm not really suggesting IC solutions to OOC problems; I'm suggesting you play the game the way he claims to want to. He doesn't trust you, so let him feel justified in his distrust by seeing the punishments for his bad choices.

    But I only even suggest the above at all because you're not willing to tell him to stuff it. WHich is what you really should do. "I'm running the game. This is how it's going to be. If you don't like it, you don't have to play." ANd then don't let him kvetch at you. "Bob, you're stressing me out away from the game, and I don't appreciate it. This isn't going to get anywhere. Please stop." And, if he keeps at it, make a point of ignoring him. Don't take this out on him in play. Just ignore him until he stops. Possibly tell him that you're tired of feeling bullied for running the game. Being called a bully may have an impact on him, since I'm pretty sure he's convincing himself that he's "standing up" against a "bully DM."

  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Can I check something with Talakeal? I skipped about the last third of this thread, and I wanted to know one thing.

    1- the problem/resistance you are suffering about Legendary actions, is it the entire group or just 1 player? Because the OP makes it seem that there's only ONE player that is whining about it.

    2- Is that player Bob?
    1: Yes.

    2: No.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Talakeal:

    Do you reward full XP if the party reaches a peaceful solution?

    The thought occurs that if you give the party full or even bonus XP for noncombat solutions to problems, Bob might be more willing to social through them. After all, he's not going to be as strong as he could be if he's giving up bonus XP...
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  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Questions:
    1. Are you enjoying your game time with this dysfunctional group?
    2. If yes, Then we can continue the talk about to improve the group in order to have the best time.
    3. If not, then go find another group.
    Last edited by zinycor; 2019-07-01 at 05:38 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Talakeal:

    Do you reward full XP if the party reaches a peaceful solution?

    The thought occurs that if you give the party full or even bonus XP for noncombat solutions to problems, Bob might be more willing to social through them. After all, he's not going to be as strong as he could be if he's giving up bonus XP...
    I use milestone XP. Using diplomacy to deal with a problem rather than violence is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinycor View Post
    Questions:
    1. Are you enjoying your game time with this dysfunctional group?
    2. If yes, Then we can continue the talk about to improve the group in order to have the best time.
    3. If not, then go find another group.
    The game itself is fine. The players arent refusing to go on the adventure, or engaging in PvP, or chewting or exploiting or even powergaming excessively, they aren't just being murder hobos or being otherwise disruptive.

    The game is fun, but the bitching that surrounds the game is what is causing me stress.
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Even if you submit to ONE Players "No Monologue "Rule", this was clearly not a monologue but an interaction of the other Players and your NPC.)
    He doesn't actually know what the word monolgue means, he thinks it means "to receal information through dialogue."

    He doesn't like dialogue in any game, in his words "If I wanted dialogue, I would read a book," and is the type of player who skips every cutscene in video games and mutes action scenes because he finds quips in combat to be obnoxious. He has told me flat out that he believes nobody likes dialogue in an RPG and that if someone is speaking they are certainly the only one having any fun.
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  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    He doesn't actually know what the word monolgue means, he thinks it means "to receal information through dialogue."

    He doesn't like dialogue in any game, in his words "If I wanted dialogue, I would read a book," and is the type of player who skips every cutscene in video games and mutes action scenes because he finds quips in combat to be obnoxious. He has told me flat out that he believes nobody likes dialogue in an RPG and that if someone is speaking they are certainly the only one having any fun.
    Why is he playing RPGs then... it's right there in the name... "roleplaying games".
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  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Max_Killjoy View Post
    Why is he playing RPGs then... it's right there in the name... "roleplaying games".
    Yeah, with those standards, even Diablo has too much talking.
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    "If I wanted dialogue, I would read a book,"
    If I wanted tactical I would play a war-game. I'm not kidding, D&D combat has rarely been half as interesting as combat in an actual war-game. Of course I don't think he is in it for the combat, he appears to be in it for the grinding.

  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    If I wanted tactical I would play a war-game. I'm not kidding, D&D combat has rarely been half as interesting as combat in an actual war-game. Of course I don't think he is in it for the combat, he appears to be in it for the grinding.
    Its funny, my old DM used to say that exact thing when we asked to use miniatures to keep track of where everyone was during combat.


    But yeah, Bob is totally in it for the grinding (and I suspect a bit of power fantasy) as he doesn't actually like combat if it is the least bit challenging.
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  22. - Top - End - #382
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    I suggest changing your absent player rules.

    *snip*

    I am shocked you are still having people control each other's characters. I mean, even good players can have strong preferences about other players controlling and mischaracterizing their character. Especially when it is the DM that did so. (See random bad DM thread) And with your players, I think you should have known the outcome was going to be bad feelings all around.
    I don't think that this is some kind of "bad policy" in general. I use it. All of my players (I usually have a group of 5 or 6) leave their sheets with me (I would DM in my garage). If we have over half the players able to make it (3/5 or 4/6), we will still have the session, and someone else will play the absent player's character. But this is spelled out for everyone before character creation, even.

    I've never had it be an issue like Talakeal has had. There was once where the original player returned last session, and he suggested a retcon which would have been more in keeping with what he would have done (the guy playing his character wasn't as familiar with the minutae of what he could do). It wasn't a huge deal, and it basically gave him one of mid-high level spell slots back. It was a minor change, and I allowed it, and that's the closest I've come to dealing with any kind of problem with that policy.

    Talakeal...I'm with everyone else who thinks you need to either sit Bob down and talk to him about his bad behavior, or just kick him out of the group. That "I'm gonna stop a monologue because I hate monologues, and then I'm gonna leave" is BS. You should have retconned that. And you could TRY explaining that you didn't "use all his resources as soon as he left", but I don't think he'll listen.

    If you're going to allow people to play others' characters when they leave, your players all need to be on board with that decision. And that's a social contract. Which means it goes both ways. 1)No intentionally suiciding someone else's character, and 2) No complaining about someone using resources like potions or spell slots for your character's benefit.

    It sounds like Bob only wants to agree to thing that help him and refuses to extend any similar courtesy to any of his fellow players. This guy is toxic, tell him to kick rocks.
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  23. - Top - End - #383
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    I honestly think he'd be happier playing a video game in another room while you guys play RPGs.

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Talakeal I'm going to say:
    First, Decide on how you want to run the games; consider adding the "Absent Rules" by OldTrees1 in Post #363. As well as any other advice you feel applies.

    Inform everyone in the Game of what the Style and Rules are, and stick to them.
    Adjust things as you feel needed.

    *****

    Without going back and reading everything posted, it seemed that you were stuck with:

    1) keeping Legendary Actions, and simply tolerating complaints.

    2) exchanging LA for more Monsters.
    Even if considered part of the BBEG.

    3) completely removing LAs, and letting the PCs p'wn your Boss Monsters.

    But, that even doing each of those things, did not solve the problem the players had with the Game?

    Am I close?
    **************
    Without knowing a lot more about the other Players, I feel that I can't give any suggestions.
    Maybe assign each a Codename - like you did with "Bob" - and specific information on what their Style is (or main complaint about the game)?

    ****
    Seriously, Bob should not be playing any RPGs; not even Video Games, and especially not tRPGs.
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    Just don't be surprised when Bob gets upset when he loses.

    ****

    I still advocate my suggestion from Post #357.
    Talk to the Group, and if they want to keep playing, find a place away from Bob.

    If you do keep Bob, let him Storm out of the room - ignore anything that has a negative effect on the other PCs.

    ****

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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Frankly he is trying to mess your game up. That fireball he unleashed was by design a way to throw your game into chaos knowing full well that no matter what happens you lose. He knew he was not going to stay and he also knows that you know he will be upset if you use his character and did it anyway. He already knows you are building encounters that will be tough but winnable for the full party and then made sure he started a fight where one full party member was rendered useless by him leaving while also knowing you are not going to change the encounter partly because of him complaining that you would do such a thing.

    He is using you and is looking to cause trouble. He is being unreasonable and he knows that you are unwilling to do anything about it because you are convinced you will lose the game.

    I am still trying to figure out how your other players do not want to get rid of him. Constantly complaining because people want to actually talk as characters? That would make my wife want to leave right there. Complaining because fights use up your resources even as you survive? Well I would not want to deal with that either. If your players are not saying they are tired of it you may want to talk to them and make sure they are not secretly getting really annoyed by the whole thing because they could be holding that in and it may eventually burst and you could lose all of your fun players thus leaving you only with Bob who will probably leave you too while blaming you for the whole thing.

    What you should be doing is be fair and firm and tell them that they need to meet the fairly low standard of just being a decent human being at a gaming table or they can leave. You are all adults (or young adults I do not know how old everybody is) they should be capable of doing that and if they can't they can choose to not be a part of this. That is there choice play together and treat each other with respect or leave the group. Just to show this is not about you being a control freak you can also give a second offer where someone else can choose to DM the group and do things the way they like (unlikely of course).

    Also make it clear about expectations about what happens when somebody leaves. As a group you should decide whether the game can continue or not and if it does continue that day then the player leaving needs to be responsible and make sure that if he does not want his character touched while he is gone then he needs to be sure he leaves the character in a situation where him doing nothing is feasible and makes sense. Fire balling an enemy and then leaving while expecting nobody to touch that character would not be responsible and in that situation I think it was unfair to the group to expect that the character would remain unused when he is the whole reason that the encounter took place in the first place. If he does not like it he can run his own game with the group with how he thinks it should be run or he can leave his choice. No anger no malice just a simple choice what does he want. Play with the group in a way that is not unfair to everybody else or not play with the group.
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMage125 View Post
    I don't think that this is some kind of "bad policy" in general.
    Agreed.

    However in this context, the DM knows that it violates the social contract between them and that player.

    We all know that because Talakeal just reminded us that they remember learning about that sore spot.

    So in this context, ...

    PS: And speaking of context, yeah I agree that the group is dysfunctional based on what we hear. But our best advice was taken off the table by Talakeal.

    Sidebar:
    I have had good experiences with both "the character leaves" and "the character stays".
    Surprise absences change up the party's plans for the day. This can create memorable sessions.
    However if the absence would just waste time, I am rather grateful if the character stays around.

    And Props! for having that discussion before character generation. I have usually made the decision in the moment due to a lack of foresight (which is not ideal).
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2019-07-02 at 08:27 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #387
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    zinycor's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    KICK BOB OUT OF THE GROUP!!!

    Seriously, It does't make any sense at all to have him around. As others have said, It would be better to have Bob playing on the X-Box besides the table, than having him playing at your table.

    That, or go find another group.
    Last son of the Lu-Ching dynasty

    thog is the champion, thog's friends! and thog keeps on fighting to the end!

  28. - Top - End - #388
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Talakeal's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Denver.
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Well, I finally got around to posting the first part of the campaign log on the first page if anyone cares enough to read it.


    So, we played again this weekend, and we had one outburst from the player in the OP.


    They were fighting a tough monster, and Bob did his usual "turn incorporeal and wand it" gimmick. At this point the monster literally had no targets, and nowhere to run, so it attacked an already downed character, at which point the player threw his dice down, stood up, and shouted "If my character is dead, I am walking home (seven miles), and spending my Saturdays lying in bed instead of coming to your ****ing game ever again."
    Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.

  29. - Top - End - #389
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
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    Portland, Oregon
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    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Um?..... Crybabies!!

    Bob has made it perfectly clear that he wants the Super Easy Video Game, where he never loses.

    Now, he's seemingly rubbing off on this other Player, because apparently the baddie is supposed to be a Moron that just stands there and let's Mr I WIN spam that button.
    And then this player blames you, and not Bob for their PC getting targeted. Instead of saying: "Hey, Wandman!! - stop for a few seconds and at least use a Healing Potion on a 'friend'!"

    Ugh. Never lose video-gaming mentality; plus
    No teamwork; And cursing (or threats to/actually leaving mid-game) at the DM for running the Game anywhere close to what it's supposed to be.

    This should be just unacceptable.

    Seriously:
    End the Game

    Inform the players that they no longer need to bother wasting their time coming to your game.

    I'd say Stop the Game until they change their expectations, but: It's obvious that their playstyle isn't going to change.

    Talakeal, I'm sorry to have to say it:
    Find. A. New. Group!!

    Even I, who will bend over backwards to help the group have Fun, simply could not tolerate this. It would cause me to pack up my stuff, and go watch YouTube (or whatever), until I found another Group.

    If you're still sticking it out, I'm in Awe of your dedication, and except to see you achieve Enlightenment, when it's over.

    Your always welcome to come read (and comment on) the Player and Character antics of my various Groups in Ancient Realms thread (or any other thread of mine that you feel like) in World Building.
    Last edited by Great Dragon; 2019-07-19 at 09:26 PM.
    My Knowledge, Understanding, and Opinion on things can be changed
    No offense is intended by anything I post.
    *Limited Playtest Group - I'm mostly Stuck in the White Room.
    *I am learning valuable things, here. So thanks, everyone!

  30. - Top - End - #390
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    They were fighting a tough monster, and Bob did his usual "turn incorporeal and wand it" gimmick. At this point the monster literally had no targets, and nowhere to run, so it attacked an already downed character, at which point the player threw his dice down, stood up, and shouted "If my character is dead, I am walking home (seven miles), and spending my Saturdays lying in bed instead of coming to your ****ing game ever again."
    How did you respond to that?

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