Legendary Actions and More of Talakeal's Gaming Horror Stories

[The Glyphstone]

This isn't gaming. This is Stockholm Syndrome with dice.

[Cikomyr]

"Yep, I'm also Brian's little toady; I'm not allowing Bob and the others to force you to spend your share of the loot on potions for the whole party, either. By the by, if you'd like to spend one person's share on that, you're free to spend yours."

This isn't an argument of logic and snark.

This is an argument of basic human decency and friendship.

They are being abusive. Sorry. The line has to be drawn here. This is abusive relationship, Tak, you have to make them understand or you have to remove yourself from it.

[Vknight]

Whelp this just keeps getting worse doesn't it?

[Friv]

I tend to agree with the last few posters.

The game itself is going fine, far above mediocre, its just that The nasty OOC comments around the game that are really starting to drag me down.

So I think it really is more of a people problem at this point.

These are not good friends.

I don't know what the surrounding situation is. I don't know if they've just gotten used to negativity, or if they're all being cowed by one abusive person, or if there's a huge rift between Bob and Brian and you're caught in the middle of it, but frankly it doesn't matter. You don't deserve this, and you do deserve to walk away from them and tell them that you're happy to be friends again once they start behaving like grown-ups and not attacking you over a game.

[Vknight]

These are not good friends.

I don't know what the surrounding situation is. I don't know if they've just gotten used to negativity, or if they're all being cowed by one abusive person, or if there's a huge rift between Bob and Brian and you're caught in the middle of it, but frankly it doesn't matter. You don't deserve this, and you do deserve to walk away from them and tell them that you're happy to be friends again once they start behaving like grown-ups and not attacking you over a game.

100% Agree they are just being the worst.

[Max_Killjoy]

This isn't gaming. This is Stockholm Syndrome with dice.

Talakeal -- heed this comment. Please. It's clear this situation is not good for you. Even if these are normally decent people, it's also clear that gaming brings out the absolute worst in them.

[Lacco]

"Yep, I'm also Brian's little toady; I'm not allowing Bob and the others to force you to spend your share of the loot on potions for the whole party, either. By the by, if you'd like to spend one person's share on that, you're free to spend yours."

Good way of handling. I'd just add "You understand this sets a precedent... for any of you next time?".

Talakeal -- heed this comment. Please. It's clear this situation is not good for you. Even if these are normally decent people, it's also clear that gaming brings out the absolute worst in them.

But...
...then where would we - without RL gaming groups - get our fix of drama???

Most of us would have already walked away from such group (actually, I had walked in past, but it was much "lighter" version) - but it seems Talakeal's bizarre universe turns everyone he games with to their worst version.

The advice is here, quite sound, even by people that usually just agree to disagree (or directly disagree). It's just a question of "Will Talakeal follow the advice or decide to provide us with more drama?"

Tune in next thread to find out...

---

Stupid sarcasm aside: I'm all for joking around and some friendly playful teasing. This is neither if you don't feel comfortable. Stop GMing for them ("Sorry, I don't feel like GMing anymore" is sufficient explanation at this point) or change your approach to the situation.

[Kardwill]

Okay, apart from the fact that I would bench from my table any player who insulted me this way, there's an interesting info there : It sounds like the entire table is frustrated with Bob. Of course, they're expressing that frustration in the most toxic, immature way possible (screwing his character behind his back) because they're Talakeal's table. But if dropping the entire table isn't an option for some reason, then having a Serious Out Of Game Conversation (tm) with everyone to burst this bad air bubble and discussing expectations becomes a real necessity. Otherwise, the table will implode soon.

[Talakeal]

I don't think the entire group is fed up with Bob, mostly just Brian.


I actually did leave my gaming group two years ago, so its not like its something I was incapable of, but it was far worse than this one is. The DM was a horrible combination of control freak and pathological liar, which meant he had all sorts of crazy rule for playing at his house, both in and out of game, which would change without warning and then he would gaslight you into saying that those were always the rules if you questioned it. Of course, in that case the actual gaming was no fun, not just people's attitudes, and it did take him threatening to beat me up to get me to leave.

[Great Dragon]

@Talakeal: man, you have the worst gaming luck. I might have played like three games, and after gaslighting me more than twice, I'd have left. Threats of Physical Attacks will immediately expedite that.

I find it interesting that you get better friendship and support from people you can't even see, and will most likely never meet, than these so-called friends.

You need some real Friends in your life, if not the games.

[Talakeal]

Another fine game, marred only by Brian's temper.

Bob was actually pretty pleasant, even congratulating me on the RP aspects of the session, which is really out of character for him.

But again, Brian couldn't roll to save his life, and spent half the session in a simmering rage, throwing dice and tossing tokens all over the table, and at one point he exploded at me shouting profanity do to the following situation:

A couple of months ago his character planned to do something, but then he forgot all about it due to his memory problems. When I informed him that he never actually went through with his plans, he exploded at me telling me that I need to assume he does everything he plans to do to compensate for his poor memory. I tried to explain that I can't do that because there are dice rolls and decisions and costs involved in this things that I can't just do for the players even if I wanted to play for them, and that I forget things to so its not like its totally one sided, but he didn't seem placated.

I was seriously tempted to give him the boot then and there, but we both calmed down after that. In the future I am going to let him roll on 3d6 rather than 1d20, hopefully the bell curve will soften his bad luck a bit, but I have no idea what the solution is for his temper (aside from the obvious).

[Great Dragon]

Another fine game, marred only by Brian's temper.

Bob was actually pretty pleasant, even congratulating me on the RP aspects of the session, which is really out of character for him.

But again, Brian couldn't roll to save his life, and spent half the session in a simmering rage, throwing dice and tossing tokens all over the table, and at one point he exploded at me shouting profanity do to the following situation:

<Memory>

In the future I am going to let him roll on 3d6 rather than 1d20, hopefully the bell curve will soften his bad luck a bit, but I have no idea what the solution is for his temper (aside from the obvious)

<Memory> perhaps insisting that anything that is actually desired to be done be put into an email? This way, both people have access to that information at a later date, and at the next game that it becomes relevant, play out whatever needs to be determined? Dice Rolls; making sure that costs are payed for; any connected RP is handled, etc?

Also, my suggestion would be using Google Docs (i love this!) to keep notes - either during game, if at all possible; or as soon after the game as possible, so that less information on what happened during that session is lost.

**********

I suppose that rolling 3d6 could work, but I'd add two points to the roll;
or maybe a 1d4 rolled along with: subtract 1 and 2 for a minimum of a "Natural 1";
and add +1 for 3, and +2 for 4: so that the effect of a Natural 20 can still be achieved.

Don't let yourself get caught in the 'I can't fail' trap.

Not sure if that really helps, though since the Average Roll/s are between 9 and 15.

**********

No real advice for the temper problem, sorry.

[Segev]

My suggestion on Brian's plans he "never followed through on" but wanted to assume his PC had followed through on would be to allow him to have attempted the rolls. Unless these are things that have to happen on screen, and have ongoing impact, you can let him background it post hoc as easily as "at the time."

In the future, when he has plans, make sure to write them down. In fact, you may want to make any rolls ahead of time, where possible, and note when they will come up.

I'm not sure what the plans were, though, so I don't know what specific problems there may be with attempting any of this.

[Talakeal]

My suggestion on Brian's plans he "never followed through on" but wanted to assume his PC had followed through on would be to allow him to have attempted the rolls. Unless these are things that have to happen on screen, and have ongoing impact, you can let him background it post hoc as easily as "at the time."

In the future, when he has plans, make sure to write them down. In fact, you may want to make any rolls ahead of time, where possible, and note when they will come up.

I'm not sure what the plans were, though, so I don't know what specific problems there may be with attempting any of this.

Basically, he was under a curse. He met an NPC who said "Come visit my shop sometime and I can sell you a scroll to cure you," and he said "Good idea. I'll be sure to do that."

Three months later, he never did it, and the curse comes up during an important combat and he tells me that he got rid of the curse, and I explain to him that he said he planned to, but he never actually did it and that actually traveling to the guys shop would have taken time as well as risked random encounters and also he never paid the person to buy the scroll.

[zinycor]

Basically, he was under a curse. He met an NPC who said "Come visit my shop sometime and I can sell you a scroll to cure you," and he said "Good idea. I'll be sure to do that."

Three months later, he never did it, and the curse comes up during an important combat and he tells me that he got rid of the curse, and I explain to him that he said he planned to, but he never actually did it and that actually traveling to the guys shop would have taken time as well as risked random encounters and also he never paid the person to buy the scroll.

Well, in my opinion you should just get rid of any important sub-plots regarding Brian's character, just let him participate in the combats and other people's story, but as long as you keep giving him protagonism he will get more and more frustrated.

Make his sub-plots simple and direct, without so much on the line if he fails, and no long term consequence.

Focus the important plots on the functional player's and let Brian participate.

Now, I realize that this isn't the sort of game you want to run, but sadly, with an unstable player like Brian, you might be better running more low stakes games. Wait for other group to have a sandbox gritty experience.

[Talakeal]

Well, in my opinion you should just get rid of any important sub-plots regarding Brian's character, just let him participate in the combats and other people's story, but as long as you keep giving him protagonism he will get more and more frustrated.

Make his sub-plots simple and direct, without so much on the line if he fails, and no long term consequence.

Focus the important plots on the functional player's and let Brian participate.

Now, I realize that this isn't the sort of game you want to run, but sadly, with an unstable player like Brian, you might be better running more low stakes games. Wait for other group to have a sandbox gritty experience.

This wasn't actually a plot, this was just him triggering a trap in a dungeon and being cursed by it.

[zinycor]

This wasn't actually a plot, this was just him triggering a trap in a dungeon and being cursed by it.

Then next time you have such a trap, and he activates it, just change it in the fly to something he would be able to deal with, like points of damage.

Again, this is no optimal solution, But since you are dealing with non-optimal players, is about the best you could do.

[Great Dragon]

This wasn't actually a plot, this was just him triggering a trap in a dungeon and being cursed by it.

There are a couple of quick solutions, either the Curse wasn't long-lasting, or it is easier to get removed.

Like stated, Brian doesn't seem the type to like dealing with things beyond what actually interests him.

I just dealt with a similar situation.

The 4th level party Encountered a Flaming Skeleton Minotaur, and the Barbarian decides to take it's flaming Greataxe, which is cursed. (I'm sure you can guess who's behind that)

After a couple of sessions of trying to give Clues through other PCs, and the Player's growing frustration, I simply allowed the Curse to be removed by spending 1k gold and a month of Downtime to get rid of it.
(The Baddies in the Dungeon left during this time)

I did give some Plot Hooks to the Barbarian's Player, in the hopes that doing so will increase their involvement in the game beyond "Smash!"

[The Glyphstone]

Bob must be up to something. That, or he's been replaced by his mirror duplicate from the Not-Bizarro gaming universe.

[Talakeal]

Bob must be up to something. That, or he's been replaced by his mirror duplicate from the Not-Bizarro gaming universe.

Lol. I actually joked about needing to do a test to see if he had been replaced by a doppleganger at the time.

[Excession]

Lol. I actually joked about needing to do a test to see if he had been replaced by a doppleganger at the time.

That may not be the best way to reinforce someone's good behaviour if they are trying to change.

[Segev]

To be fair, in Brian's place? I'd be mad, too.

I'm going to speak as if I were Brian, in his situation in your game, here. I know I'm not Brian, so my thought process probably won't be his, but I hope that illustrating my thought process will help you understand better where he might be coming from, and from that, work out a solution.

I am not my character. I can try my best to get into the game, to play my character to the hilt - and I do - but I am not actually living in the world. I am not experiencing things through his senses. I only have the DM's descriptions filtered through my own imagination's interpretation of what I understand the DM to be saying.

If my PC is suffering an ongoing condition, it impacts his life in ways that it doesn't impact mine. You don't make me tell you every time my PC goes to the bathroom or eats a meal, lest he die of constipation or starve (or die of thirst), despite the fact that every time he goes behind the bushes, he's lowering his trousers and removing parts of his armor and in a position that is far more vulnerable to ambush than normal, and that every meal could be poisoned, have gone bad, or the like. If you need to check on it, you just ask me, "Hey, did you mark off the rations you've been eating for the last week of travel?" and we move on when I mark them off or affirm that I already have.

Brian may not have brought up going to take care of it because he, the player, forgot it was a thing, but Brian's PC certainly would not forget about a curse that he's laboring under. Moreover, if the DM doesn't bring it up and offer an explicit time to do it, but I said my PC wants to take care of that, I may assume that the DM doesn't want to run it, and that it's been dealt with. Pressing DMs on things they don't want to do can derail entire sessions.

Now, maybe Brian should have asked about it, but again, if he forgot because he's not experiencing what his PC is, that's not really fair as the DM to impose.

Is there a high chance of failure? Or is it mostly jsut a risk of random encounters killing him on his way? If the latter, my recommendation would have been to say, "Right, you did say you were going to. We'll assume you did, and run that next session as a flashback." Then, run it. If, for some reason, he fails to get the curse lifted in the process, come up with a reason. Maybe he died and got raised and had to spend more money than anticipated to cover that as well as the curse-removal. Maybe he WAS replaced by a doppelganger, and the "un-cursed" PC is not really Brian's PC at all. And, of course, if he succeeds on the quest, he's uncursed just as expected.

But holding Brian responsible for something he said he was going to do but never pressed you to do, despite it being important to his PC, is something I fully understand being angry about.

One of my peeves in a game I'm in is when the DM expects the players to outline exactly how they're going to do something their characters should know how to do, and which the DM has researched, and then tries to tell them that they failed because they (the players) didn't know was a part of it despite it being something the characters should know.

It's also irksome when the DM says the character smashes his face into a closed door because the DM had described it as closed, and the player says, "I go through the door," but doesn't say, "I open the door," first. Remember: the PC isn't the player, and the PC sees things the player only heard described once in what was possibly an infodump he now has to try to remember, while the PC is seeing it right in front of him.

[patchyman]

Why can't a PC full attack and cast a spell and activate a supernatural power all in the same round?

Why can this monster?

The ability to do so clearly exists - what's a PC gotta do to gain / duplicate that ability?

They can. Most spellcasters can cast shield or counterspell in the same turn they do something else. Eldritch Knights can attack twice, use a cantrip, and cast counterspell on the opponents turn. Anyone complaining about that?

[patchyman]

Well in that case have you considered making the enemies using the PC rules, judging their CR via the NPC rules, and then treating them as real entities that use some of their resources each day? Maybe notice how few resources the PCs use on their downtime days and apply that as a reasonable attrition to NPCs in the NPC's base. Maybe walk the players through the process once or twice so the players could see how much more effort it is to create a humanoid boss, and then a Dragon using PC rules than it is using NPC rules. Showing them the waste of time might help them empathize with you and suggest better solutions / compromises.

*BEGIN RANT*

To be honest, this does not go far enough. The players want more symmetry, give them what they want!

If they run into soldiers or bandits, the soldiers or bandits should be at least level 10 if not 20. After all, the characters advanced to their current level after a couple of months of adventuring, so NPCs who have been active for years must be correspondingly more powerful.

Dragons and elves who have been active for centuries should have godlike powers.

The players don’t want symmetry or fairness. They want symmetry or fairness only when it benefits them.

*END RANT*

[Great Dragon]

@patchyman: With the exception of not recalling any Cantrips with a Bonus Action casting time, everything else you posted is true. Edit: Forgot about SCAG: Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade are cast during the same attack action.

@Segev. True.
But the inverse also applies, and the player has to have as much sympathy towards the GM.
Because as difficult as it is to remember everything that applies to your PC from session to session, it's several times worse for the GM: with multiple monsters and various NPCs to keep track of.

Both sides must at least agree on a Middle Ground.

**********

There's a reason that I use a pre-made Campaign World for the majority of my Games.
It makes it where if I don't immediately know/remember something that applies can be looked up in a book, or more likely on a wiki site. I can usually remember if I've changed anything. But then, I do use both the Forums of this Site and Google Docs to record things so that they can be referenced quickly.

Right now, everyone is on the Sword Coast, and I'm just fine.
But, them suddenly deciding to go to - say Chult - is also still possible (especially with magic), since I can quickly get that information.

Where maybe in Talakeal's game, the party suddenly deciding to start sailing West might be a problem, since he hasn't made anything for that Region, and doing so before the next Session might not be possible.

*****

Talakeal does his best (as near as I can tell) to be both fair and consistent with how he runs the game.

Bob might have come around (or at least mellowed enough) to not be as much of a problem.
(I really hope so !!)

IDK. Bad rolls happen, but Brian seems unusually unlucky about this, but that's not the only problem with him.

Is there a high chance of failure? Or is it mostly just a risk of random encounters killing him on his way? If the latter, my recommendation would have been to say, "Right, you did say you were going to. We'll assume you did, and run that next session as a flashback." Then, run it. If, for some reason, he fails to get the curse lifted in the process, come up with a reason. Maybe he died and got raised and had to spend more money than anticipated to cover that as well as the curse-removal. Maybe he WAS replaced by a doppelganger, and the "un-cursed" PC is not really Brian's PC at all. And, of course, if he succeeds on the quest, he's uncursed just as expected.

I tend to agree, here.
If the Curse Quest was meant to be challenging, than Brian should have been able to bring the Party with him to help solve it. But, this requires both the Player and the Group being ok with "The Quest to Remove the Curse" Arc of the game.

Otherwise, yeah - just run it as a Flashback.
I'd change it from the next session to arranging a non-game day to meet up and resolve this. Or, if that's not possible, dedicate no more then an hour on game day to solving it.

Personally, I normally don't use long-term Curses (even the Minotaur Curse wasn't meant to last more then three sessions; although if the Group showed interest: it could have led to some interesting Plots/Quests), and getting rid of those Curses is as easy as getting someone to cast Remove Curse. (Hence the month long 1k gold Ritual, since there wasn't any Casters available, or high enough level even if they were there)

[King of Nowhere]

I actually did leave my gaming group two years ago, so its not like its something I was incapable of, but it was far worse than this one is.

anyway, regarding the curse, since it's something that should not have taken too much effort, i would have said something along "oh, well, your character would have remembered it. let's assume you paid X money to get a wizard to remove it off-panel"

if instead it was meant to be a major obstacle and plot point, then you should have definitely remembered it

[Talakeal]

@Zinycor: So apparently the previous version of this thread got restarted and then closed, so maybe we could continue our discussion here?

I am curious about what RPGs you are familiar with. You stated that only a deeply flawed system can produce characters that are of vastly differing power levels, but I honestly can't think of one that doesn't.

anyway, regarding the curse, since it's something that should not have taken too much effort, i would have said something along "oh, well, your character would have remembered it. let's assume you paid X money to get a wizard to remove it off-panel"

if instead it was meant to be a major obstacle and plot point, then you should have definitely remembered it

The curse was not something that was a daily problem.

Basically, anytime he was in a stressful situation, there was a chance that a nearby mirror would shatter and an evil reflection would attack.

It only happened once every couple of sessions, and while it added a fairly major complication when it happened during an encounter, it wasn't something that would have been constantly on his mind.

It wouldn't have taken a lot of effort, but it is something that would have required a journey through the wilderness to get to the NPC's shop and a fairly sizeable monetary expense which may not have been possible for the generally cash poor party to make at any given time.

[Great Dragon]

@Zinycor: So apparently the previous version of this thread got restarted and then closed, so maybe we could continue our discussion here?

Be cautious, my friend.

I'm kinda thinking that it was more the Fire then the Necro-ing that caused the other thread to be closed. (Might have been both, not sure.)

To restate my opinion: it's more about the Style of the Group and the Player's attitude and less about optimizing or min/maxing.

[zinycor]

@Zinycor: So apparently the previous version of this thread got restarted and then closed, so maybe we could continue our discussion here?

I am curious about what RPGs you are familiar with. You stated that only a deeply flawed system can produce characters that are of vastly differing power levels, but I honestly can't think of one that doesn't.

Mainly DnD (AD&D and 5e), also Werewolf the apocalypse, fate accelerated and currently we are trying out Gurps. And sometimes the difference between characters seems greater than it actually is.

[Talakeal]

Mainly DnD (AD&D and 5e), also Werewolf the apocalypse, fate accelerated and currently we are trying out Gurps. And sometimes the difference between characters seems greater than it actually is.

AD&D and 5E are fairly well designed class based systems, so its not surprising you aren't seeing any big discrepancies there, but Werewolf is can be pretty messy mechanically, its odd you haven't run across anything there. Heck, something as simple as making a character who uses guns instead of fighting in close combat can be a huge trap in that game.

Typically classed based games do a lot of the work in character generation for the player, and are thus a lot more balanced than point buy games, the notable exception being D&D 3E, which is simultaneously an overly restrictive class based system and one of the least balanced games of all time.

In more open ended point buy systems, like GURPS or most super hero games you generally have a lot of freedom to make characters, and as a result of that freedom you can make a lot of varying power levels, and generally the group and / or the GM set the expected power level; for example a good super hero game would let you make either The Punisher or Superman, but that doesn't mean you can just throw those two together in your standard beat up the bad guys and save the day style story without power issues arising.


In my experience bad characters come in a few types:

The overspecialized guy who is feels bored and useless when his specialization isn't relevant.
The overgeneralized guy who doesn't actually do anything better than the rest of the party and this feels bored and irrelevant as the specialists handle everything.
The glass cannon who puts all his point into offense but spends most of the fight hiding or unconscious because he can't actually take a hit.
The brick wall who puts all of his points into defense but has so little offense that he just gets ignored.
The guy whose stats don't match up with their skills, for example a D&D mage who puts his highest score into strength or a fighter whose highest score is intelligence.
And of course there are people who, by accident or intentionally, find a broken ability or combination of abilities to exploit a flaw in the game.


And yeah, you can just cover it up with RP, but most groups go into the game with a problem solving mindset, and most people are, in my experiance although I guess not yours, atleast a little bit comepetitive or envious of spotlight time, and this causes problems. I know, for example, that I have tried in several 5E groups to play a pure an academic abjurer with no direct damage spells, and I am fine with playing a character who spends a lot of time in the background, but it seems to really annoy both the other players and the DM that I spend most rounds in combat assisting another or going full defensive because I don't have any blasting cantrips.